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Wickster
05-11-2007, 09:33 AM
...well maybe until the next thing comes up that will pi$$ me off :cursin:

CGSociety / CGTalk does a profile on ZOIC Studios without a mention of Lightwave..."BUT" mentions Maya instead....

It's mentioned elsewhere but I thought I'd curse and be grumpy all alone here.
...

...

...

Dodgy
05-11-2007, 10:10 AM
Now they're taking the mick....

This will cheer you up a bit:
http://animation.about.com/od/moviemagic/a/serenitymovie.htm

colkai
05-11-2007, 11:07 AM
Ommmmmmm...Ommmmmm

Tis nought but a hiccup in the rich tapestry of life.

Ommmmmmm...

Exception
05-11-2007, 11:29 AM
They're not the only one.

Cgarchitect completely ignored both fprime's and LW 9.2's release while they have no issue posting news about the release of any random cd of plants or handkerchiefs for visualisation. I emailed them and then it was put in the 'past news' section, which was perhaps even ruder.

What's wrong with all these people? At some point they only seem to care about money.

3dworks
05-11-2007, 11:39 AM
They're not the only one.

Cgarchitect completely ignored both fprime's and LW 9.2's release while they have no issue posting news about the release of any random cd of plants or handkerchiefs for visualisation. I emailed them and then it was put in the 'past news' section, which was perhaps even ruder.

What's wrong with all these people? At some point they only seem to care about money.

yep - probably that's the point. ...and cgarchitect seemed always very vray biased to me...

markus

mattclary
05-11-2007, 12:55 PM
F them. And the poorly rendered and modeled, vaguely horselike creature they rode in on.

Matt
05-11-2007, 01:20 PM
F them. And the poorly rendered and modeled, vaguely horselike creature they rode in on.

ROFLMAO! :D

Have to say, I never visit CGSociety as it's abunantly clear we are not part of their "society". Seems full of LW haters to me.

In fact I'm subscribed to their emails and they just p!$$ me off everytime they arrive in my inbox. Think I'll remove my addy from that.

This is my family right here, and I love every one of you! (Yes even you Chuck! ;) )

Hipcheck
05-11-2007, 01:25 PM
even oddity?

...whoa...

(couldn't resist - just a jibe oddity!)

Bog
05-11-2007, 04:21 PM
Screw the biased press. You, me, and everyone working on Galactica, 300, and everything else, know what's going on.

We'll win in the end because all we give a crap about is doing damn fine CG. Worry about doing good work first, and the porsches will take care of themselves.

Andyjaggy
05-11-2007, 07:16 PM
I've never been able to get an image into the gallery at CG Talk. No not the super awesome gallery just the normal average gallery. I submit stuff and I guess they never approve it because it never shows up. Maybe my stuff just isn't up to par, but then again I see some of the stuff in there and think WTF.

Matt
05-11-2007, 08:53 PM
Andy, your work is certainly up to par! Just spent 20 mins going through your site!

Andyjaggy
05-12-2007, 09:35 AM
Thanks. I don't know what the deal is though. I stopped trying a while ago actually. I've always just told myself they don't accept it because I use Lightwave :)

hrgiger
05-12-2007, 10:14 AM
Yeah, it's all complete BS. I rarely ever go to the site anymore, occasionally just to see what's making front page, and I don't remember ever seeing much about Lightwave making it there to no surprise.

geothefaust
05-12-2007, 10:47 AM
It's all very true. CGtalk is a horrible trash receptacle for 3D world.

When I first started doing 3D stuff years ago, I was a huge newbie. I asked a lot of questions, and all I got was degraded and insulted because I didn't know how to do what I was asking.


I've only posted once there since. The community is no where near as helpful there, as it is here, or spinquad, etc... Much better places to frequent then CGtalk. Bah!

oDDity
05-13-2007, 02:54 AM
Nonsense, I have 3 images in the award gallery which were all clearly marked as lightwave work, (I admit they seem to be tossing anything in there these days, it used to be no more than maybe two or three pieces a month, and now it's more like 10 a week)
Shoe me the images that they didn't put in the gallery and I'll tell you why - but it certainly had nothing to do with Lw.
They also did a news section on the release of 9.2.
You can maybe blame whoever wrote the particular article about Zoic for not mentioning lightwave, maybe he personally has a gripe, or didn't think it worth mentioning, but inferring that the Cg Society management as a whole has ostrcised lightwave is just nonsense.

Cageman
05-13-2007, 04:24 AM
They also did a news section on the release of 9.2.
You can maybe blame whoever wrote the particular article about Zoic for not mentioning lightwave, maybe he personally has a gripe, or didn't think it worth mentioning, but inferring that the Cg Society management as a whole has ostrcised lightwave is just nonsense.

Hmm... yeah... I have to agree with you, however, the original article about '300' was pretty bad in that respect, but they did make up for it in a good way. It was a little hard to ignore LW after NT put their story online. :)

Which reminds me of this... (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68187)

iconoclasty
05-13-2007, 05:15 PM
um, this isn't exactly the first time that CG Society has seemed to go out of their way to omit LW's use in the industry. It seems to happen pretty often, so maybe not such nonsense.

hrgiger
05-13-2007, 05:39 PM
So now we're comparing art competitions that nobody outside of CGI enthusiasts see to the movies and TV shows that anyone with a tv, a pulse, and/or enough money to scrape together to buy a movie ticket will see? Because it seems like everytime the latter happens, CGsociety always seems to forget to mention that LW was used in the project.

oDDity
05-14-2007, 02:59 AM
Well exactly how much does LW have to be used in it to deserve a mention?
What exact percentage would you says befits credit?
If LW had been used for more than 50% of the CG work on a production, and CGS didn't mention it, then you'd have something to complain about, I admit.
Photoshop is used on all of these productions, and that never gets a mention. Combustion, AE, etc are used and usually don't get a mention.
I guess they just see LW as one of those utility apps which is used to fill a function, like a spanner, but isn't actually worth talking about.

oDDity
05-14-2007, 03:12 AM
Also, they could have used 10 differnet apps on a production, and 8 of them didn't get a mention in a CGS article, it's just that you know from other sources that LW was used, and know it was left out of the article.
They could have left out 7 other apps fro all you know.
This sort of paranoia is generally what you get from selective data gathering.

bluerider
05-14-2007, 03:20 AM
oDDity,
Zoic do use lw rather alot :) . It was interesting looking at that interview and noticing everything like the serenity spaceship the motorbike all modeled in LightWave.

It's interesting that only one 3D app was mentioned yet they choose to omit the mention of another, the other being the 3D app they create pretty much all their modelling content and particle texturing with.

Its also a little odd that when they cover studios in TV and film production whose main stable is LightWave they omit that important fact but then mention another product and say, its not the tool its the artist thats important . Its true the Artist is the overwhelming ingredient, but then why mention any app, which they do, but not the staple app which is LightWave.

It seems to happen on a regular basis, its probably just a cohensidence that it happens all the time in their articles :hey: .

Its great to see your work posted on that forum :thumbsup: Baz

zardoz
05-14-2007, 03:25 AM
now the thread at cgtalk is closed...well I guess after all there's censorship in the internet in the 21st century...they should change cgtalk to mayatalk...
:(

bluerider
05-14-2007, 03:43 AM
I read that thread. Valid points where made, its was a good thread to read. :)

Glendalough
05-14-2007, 05:22 AM
It's the Money Thing.

LW should release a special idiots Prestige Edition that costs a thousand more than anything else.

If you have 3 cars (being very rich), the Porsche is going to be the star, not the car you usually drive around in.

Dodgy
05-14-2007, 06:16 AM
The thread seems to have been edited... I'm only seeing about 6 posts...

bluerider
05-14-2007, 07:26 AM
It's the Money Thing.

LW should release a special idiots Prestige Edition that costs a thousand more than anything else.

If you have 3 cars (being very rich), the Porsche is going to be the star, not the car you usually drive around in.

"Idiots Prestige Edition", thats quite witty. I'll suggest that to marketing and see what happens :hey:

Iain
05-14-2007, 07:36 AM
I think there is bias on these sites but the reasons don't have anything to do with conspiracy theories.

CGArchitect is VRay biased because 98% of the members use VRay.
3d World and CGTalk hardly ever mention LightWave because it's one of the least discussed applications on their boards.
Every image I've ever submitted to CGTalk has made it onto the gallery (never the awards but I don't expect that). The standard of work accepted is totally inconsistent but the awards are normally justified.
Saying that, I love looking at the work posted there but I try to stay out of discussions because a very high proportion of the users are aggressive morons.

Cageman
05-14-2007, 12:42 PM
oDDity,
Zoic do use lw rather alot :) . It was interesting looking at that interview and noticing everything like the serenity spaceship the motorbike all modeled in LightWave.

It's interesting that only one 3D app was mentioned yet they choose to omit the mention of another, the other being the 3D app they create pretty much all their modelling content and particle texturing with.

Here (http://www.fxguide.com/modules/fxpodcast/files/fxg-070405-ZoicDrive.mp3) is an MP3 interview with the supervisor for Drive. For that particular show they used Modo (for modeling) Maya (for rigging/animation) and LightWave (for shading/rendering). It's all in the MP3-file, and alot of other information about how they solved the VFX. :)

The CGSoc. article failed to mention alot of apps... LightWave, Modo, Combustion, AE, Shake, Flame, Avid... well... Zoic uses ALOT.

Cageman
05-14-2007, 12:52 PM
Another thing....

All the noise that was going on in that thread may generate more negativity towards LW-users, making it even harder to actually get LW-coverage there. I don't care too much about the LW-section at CGTalk; I have had some word-duels myself. :) Mostly, only ex-LightWave users and actuall LW-users visit the LW-forum over there. But this was a NEWS-thread that has more than 5.500 views... I wonder how many of them think about LW-users as "fanboys" after reading that thread?

Cageman
05-14-2007, 12:54 PM
The thread seems to have been edited... I'm only seeing about 6 posts...

Maybe it has been sencored to unregistered visitors? I can read all posts...

djlithium
05-14-2007, 01:06 PM
Not really, they also seem to be anti-fusion as well. And while this is just a rumor, I have been told that someone on the CGSociety doesn't like Lightwave because they got turned down for a job that was lightwave specific and they blew 30K on training in maya and took it personally. That stuff happens. I know a guy here in Vancouver who did 2 years of flame/flint training and now can't get work because everything has gone shake/nuke/fusion. So what does he do? goes back to school and learns adobe products and now I think he teaches somewhere telling everyone shake and fusion are garbage. Nuke I would agree needs some maturing to do before one can consider it more than a shell for executing scripts. But point is people will do that.

djlithium
05-14-2007, 01:16 PM
Screw the biased press. You, me, and everyone working on Galactica, 300, and everything else, know what's going on.

We'll win in the end because all we give a crap about is doing damn fine CG. Worry about doing good work first, and the porsches will take care of themselves.

Yeah well, about galactica..... hmmm I am going to try and not get myself into trouble here but there is a direction connection between the downward slide of the VFX and the relocation of the VFX work from Vancouver to LA back into the hands of ex zoic/foundation people who bit off more than they can chew under the "direction" of the same guy through out the entire series in charge of VFX. Atmosphere knows what their doing. Zoic knows what they are doing. The inhouse guys in LA? Not so much. Now that both of those studios have been cut out pretty much completely from the VFX work of the show, well, who in LA is to blame for the look of it over the course of the last 7-10 episodes? If not all of season III which was all very hit and miss. Some shots looked great, some shots were disasters and looked like LW work from 12 years ago, if that. Oh wait... maybe that explains something... something about a legend?? A Lightwave Legend? A lightwave legend(s) from yester year?

Yup.

oDDity
05-14-2007, 01:35 PM
Roberto Ortiz and Leigh are both former Lightwavers, so why would they be in a conspiracy against it.
In the latest Ballistic publishing D'artiste character Modeling book, one of the three featured artists doing tutorials is Timur Baysal, who clearly states his app of choice is Lightwave.
I conclude that Paul Hellard has no bias against Lightwave, nor has most of the CGS staff.
There may be a few there who do, but I've never suspected anyone.
You guys aren't making sense at all. In fact, you're sounding like total mental cases.

tyrot
05-14-2007, 02:14 PM
dear oddi

after getting CGawards you simply started to not make no sense at all. They are simply deleting lightwave delibarately for years. Only a fool cant see that.

You must start to read threads in CGtalk. Start from 2-3 years earlier.

And just stop behaving like this. I have known for years from forums but never seen you that much mental earlier. It is not funny anymore.

Seriously friend. Not funny. And because of your arrival threads suddenly turned into some sort of battlefields. You dont have to turn threads into personal-masterbation places. It is really enough mate.

Best

oDDity
05-14-2007, 02:24 PM
Listen to what you guys are saying - that Alias, and now Autodesk are paying people at CGS to deliberately not mention Lightwave in articles relating to production houses.
You really think Autodesk fears LW that much?
You sound like paranoid delusionals.

bluerider
05-14-2007, 03:31 PM
Here (http://www.fxguide.com/modules/fxpodcast/files/fxg-070405-ZoicDrive.mp3) is an MP3 interview with the supervisor for Drive. For that particular show they used Modo (for modeling) Maya (for rigging/animation) and LightWave (for shading/rendering). It's all in the MP3-file, and alot of other information about how they solved the VFX. :)

The CGSoc. article failed to mention alot of apps... LightWave, Modo, Combustion, AE, Shake, Flame, Avid... well... Zoic uses ALOT.

Thanks for the link Cageman, much appreciated :) :) :) :)

Andyjaggy
05-14-2007, 05:21 PM
Wow. personal-masterbation place. That a new one.

oDDity
05-14-2007, 05:38 PM
dear andy

he's always been a bit mental.

Best

Andyjaggy
05-14-2007, 06:00 PM
Perhaps. I just don't think he knows what that word means.

tyrot
05-15-2007, 01:22 AM
dear andy

sorry it was like this "personal,masterbation" or this "personal-masterbation-"places..

anyways.....

best

Iain
05-15-2007, 03:25 AM
They are simply deleting lightwave delibarately for years. Only a fool cant see that.

You must start to read threads in CGtalk. Start from 2-3 years earlier.

Why do you think that is-maybe because LightWave wasn't being taken as seriously as the other applications?
I think so and for good reason. It slumped from being a great package to being well below par but we all stuck with it. Those who didn't were well within their rights not to.

The future looks much brighter now and that should mean a change in the way others view the application, including CGS.

Anti-Distinctly
05-15-2007, 03:38 AM
I agree with Iain. I really don't think that there is that much malice towards a piece fo software, perhaps I'm being naive, but, come on. It's a computer program...I don't know.
Conspiracies are much more interesting, but are virtually never true.

Anti-Distinctly
05-15-2007, 03:42 AM
Hey djlithium! Thanks again for that breakout tutorial. Done mean to hijack here, but one thing I wanted to ask you is that isn't there some automated tool to do alot of that breakout stuff? That's a tremendous amount of repetitive work to get those elements out. I swear xsi has this as a tick box option or something.
I finally got to the end of Season 3, I thought it was marvellous, but I totally hear you on the fx shots. Quality was quite variable.

sammael
05-15-2007, 03:44 AM
Why do you think that is-maybe because LightWave wasn't being taken as seriously as the other applications?
I think so and for good reason. It slumped from being a great package to being well below par but we all stuck with it. Those who didn't were well within their rights not to.

The future looks much brighter now and that should mean a change in the way others view the application, including CGS.

Well said Iain, that always seemed the obvious explanation to me.

tyrot
05-15-2007, 05:12 AM
dear iain

read the threads...read the old threads.. cgtalk,spinquad and then here..

i really dont have the luxury of spending my time scanning those threads and find you the answers that you must seek and find yourself...

for how long you are reading those forums mate?
how many times celshader must write another email to 3Dworld in order to see unbiased article about LW-related projects?
how many times "literally" autodesk founded webpages will ignore-then find stupid excuses- lightwave delibarately?

How many ex-lightwave users infested LW forums for leading us Modo,XSI way and they were carefully protected by the moderators..?

How many witchy moderator will write Lightwave "Text"ure books, grab the money from Lightwave users and chase them in every forum? How many threads closed by her? Why did she ban SplineGod for no reason? Why did they all turned into some sort of vultures in those threads?

Still same names are infesting those threads, still they are doing their best to attack newtek,lightwave...Accept it or not..There is a silent war between Lw and those guys,forum owners, moderators...And they were so sure LW would fade away...But it didnt. So their next tactic is Picking out LW name from the productions.

Why do they do that? Is it fear? Or is it 900 $ LW still shining no matter what they do...damn why didnt Jay Roth fail?

of course they must be in fear... They sell all those mumbo-jumbo tools, integrating rendering plugins (still have suck renderer) but a guy, can render one of the most beatiful effect in 300 with Lightwave in record time...

i dont know what they gonna do after 9.5 :) Shutting down LW forums_? But damn NT will release Rendetion Plugin for Photoshop:) Every photoshop user will know Lightwave renderer one way or another...

so we can expect...more fear....

best

best

Iain
05-15-2007, 05:26 AM
How many ex-lightwave users infested LW forums for leading us Modo,XSI way and they were carefully protected by the moderators..?

How many witchy moderator will write Lightwave "Text"ure books, grab the money from Lightwave users and chase them in every forum? How many threads closed by her? Why did she ban SplineGod for no reason? Why did they all turned into some sort of vultures in those threads?

Still same names are infesting those threads, still they are doing their best to attack newtek,lightwave...Accept it or not..There is a silent war between Lw and those guys,forum owners, moderators...And they were so sure LW would fade away...But it didnt. So their next tactic is Picking out LW name from the productions.

Why do they do that? Is it fear? Or is it 900 $ LW still shining no matter what they do...damn why didnt Jay Roth fail?



Surely you have better things to be concerned with than unsubstantiated crap like this.

900$ LW has been used less and less in production houses over the last few years so shining isn't the word I'd use. More like surviving.

tyrot
05-15-2007, 05:29 AM
dear iain

i guess you are trying to survive here too....follow your own path...and let it go...let us survive:)

best

djlithium
05-15-2007, 06:23 AM
Surely you have better things to be concerned with than unsubstantiated crap like this.

900$ LW has been used less and less in production houses over the last few years so shining isn't the word I'd use. More like surviving.

I don't know where you are getting your sales info from but there are a lot of LW seats being sold and about to be sold to some pretty big studios out there.
I was concerned for a while rainmaker, now having its *** owned by the mainframe people were going to jump ship completely but I am told that hasn't happened and they have kept up with LW since they have contributed a significant amount of code to recent versions. Also LW it catching on in some other industries like gaming. One studio i know of in the UK is going to be doing a PS3 title using almost exclusively LW9.2 and up over the course of the next two years.
BSG in house vfx department also went from 5 copies to about 15-20 copies since it fired up a while ago. These are small examples but another studio here in Vancouver also bought some seats this spring. What needs to happen is there needs to be more people saying they use LW to get work instead of Maya to get work and that will change the HR people's minds about who is using what.

Iain
05-15-2007, 02:57 PM
I don't know where you are getting your sales info from but there are a lot of LW seats being sold and about to be sold to some pretty big studios out there.

I didn't mention any sales info and I wasn't referring to sales but rather trends within the industry.
Most of the studios have various applications in their pipeline now and despite the fact I think this is a good thing, I have seen the following statement more often than I'd like:
"It was during this project that [I]switched from LightWave to XSI(or Maya) for the bulk of it's modelling (or, more commonly,) animation work."

Watching the industry (like most of you I imagine,) over the last few years, I have seen very little instances of the above statement with LightWave gaining ground rather than losing it.
Granted, in these cases, LW was often retained for modelling or rendering but it normally seemed to become at best a secondary player, therefore deserving the lack of coverage so vehemently discussed here.

As much as I love using it, I would have switched to something else by now, if not for two things:

1. The appearance of Worley's FPrime, and
2. The recognition of the state of affairs by Newtek and their hugely commendable efforts with 9.0 and 9.2 to level the playing field again.

I would hate to have seen the demise of Newtek and/or LW but there's only so much you can put up with when there are so many other options available.

Matt
05-15-2007, 06:27 PM
As much as I love using it, I would have switched to something else by now, if not for two things:

1. The appearance of Worley's FPrime, and
2. The recognition of the state of affairs by Newtek and their hugely commendable efforts with 9.0 and 9.2 to level the playing field again.

FPrime for me was a HUGE factor in staying, I desperately needed faster GI at the time to keep up with the kind of images other people were doing in Max / Vray. Yes you _could_ simulate GI with many lights, but I didn't have the time, and the (back then) slower raytracing engine choked when adding too many area lights.

The 9.2 update has also cemented my faith that NT have grabbed the reigns, and are heading in a direction that makes me confident in LW's future again.

Had it not been for either of those, I would be learning something else right now too.

Bog
05-15-2007, 07:53 PM
*flexes arms*

*flexes legs*

Looks like anyone who's ignoring me's about to have an ickle bit of a pwobwen.

*sends master-arm code*

Ickle pwobbem about to get a bit... Boggy

Andyjaggy
05-15-2007, 08:50 PM
*flexes arms*

*flexes legs*

Looks like anyone who's ignoring me's about to have an ickle bit of a pwobwen.

*sends master-arm code*

Ickle pwobbem about to get a bit... Boggy

Your so strange Bog :)

jasonwestmas
05-15-2007, 10:18 PM
I've never been able to get an image into the gallery at CG Talk. No not the super awesome gallery just the normal average gallery. I submit stuff and I guess they never approve it because it never shows up. Maybe my stuff just isn't up to par, but then again I see some of the stuff in there and think WTF.

You don't have a wrinkly monster, or poofy lips, or one piece of clad skin on your site man! ;)

Andyjaggy
05-15-2007, 10:26 PM
That's true man. I haven't created a character that looks like the other 900 characters I see on there all the time. Some of them are amazing and I could never do it, but still you get sick of seeing the same thing all the time. I've just never gotten into the whole lets create a photo realistic human thing. It's cool but not for me. I would just assume go take a picture.

jasonwestmas
05-15-2007, 10:30 PM
I would just assume go take a picture.

But then you couldn't do terrible and believeable things to your animations in 3D! :D

I like that streamlined 2 seater space ship you did, very cool!

oDDity
05-16-2007, 02:19 AM
You mean you submitted that moth racer at CG Talk, and they didn't even put it in the 3d stills forum?
That's certainly strange.

Iain
05-16-2007, 02:33 AM
Had it not been for either of those, I would be learning something else right now too.

We'd better watch out-that's heresy in these parts!

On the subject of gallery submissions, there was a car in the 3DWorld gallery this month and it wasn't even antialiased properly.
It was done with LW and I have no idea why that would be picked over other images other than that we just don't send them enough.

Some, however, might think it's an attempt to bring down our reputation by publishing the most average looking LW stuff they have. Eh, Tyrot? Think I might be onto something?

Bog
05-16-2007, 03:01 AM
Your so strange Bog :)

Find me a "normal" animator, I double-dog dare ya! Especially after they've been working for 20 hours straight (admittedly, I was in Bonus Weird Mode for that last post)

Iain
05-16-2007, 03:07 AM
*flexes arms*

*flexes legs*

Looks like anyone who's ignoring me's about to have an ickle bit of a pwobwen.

*sends master-arm code*

Ickle pwobbem about to get a bit... Boggy

I have no idea what this means but it's my new favourite post. :gotpics:

Bog
05-16-2007, 03:09 AM
It means "Don't post after 2am, Mark, you've stopped making sense and are neither use nor ornament" ;)

Andyjaggy
05-16-2007, 07:45 AM
You mean you submitted that moth racer at CG Talk, and they didn't even put it in the 3d stills forum?
That's certainly strange.

Yep I submitted it and it never showed up. Whatever.

Bog
05-16-2007, 09:00 AM
That's arse that is.

Still, at the moment I'm gonna give 'em the benefit of the doubt and presume that it's because the 8.x cycle wasn't as stellar as we'd hoped, and that with 9.x's shiny new yumness, it'll start getting paid attention to a bit more.

If they don't, then I'll start being properly vitriolic about 'em rather than just assuming lazy writing.

sammael
05-16-2007, 09:43 AM
Yep I submitted it and it never showed up. Whatever.

That is strange, thats the best ship model I have seen recently. It realy deserves to be in the showcase gallery.
And an award pinned to your avatar. They probably get a crapload of submissions perhaps some stuff just gets lost in the woodwork.

Andyjaggy
05-16-2007, 12:34 PM
Perhaps I should try again.