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StormRising
05-09-2007, 11:21 AM
Hey I was wondering how much a freelance artist might want for 36 high poly characters. All the concept art is there, just model and simple rig, no animation.

I think to get the job done nice, around $3500,
thats around 85$ a character, this sound right? Ithink I'd need to go higher, but I want to see what you guys think.:hey:

pauland
05-09-2007, 11:26 AM
So how long per character do you expect someone to work for $85?

iconoclasty
05-09-2007, 11:39 AM
At the cheapest modeling price (in my opinion) that's about 2 hours of work per character. I can't imagine a very good "high poly" character in that amount of time. To get 36 characters "done nice" the pricetag would have to go up considerably.

Bog
05-09-2007, 11:48 AM
Uhm. That's about what I'd consider a minimum for one high-poly character (if by "high poly" you mean "near photoreal"). And I do mean minimum.

JGary
05-09-2007, 12:11 PM
Uhm. That's about what I'd consider a minimum for one high-poly character (if by "high poly" you mean "near photoreal"). And I do mean minimum.

Do you mean $3500 for one character? If so, I agree. There is a lot of detail missing about this proposal, like are characters similar to one another which would make things go a lot faster. Still, I find it a bit disturbing that a bid would be made to do 36 high-rez characters for $3500. Things like that really drive the freelance 3d market down.

Bog
05-09-2007, 12:32 PM
Yeah, for one. As in, "Each character, a minimum of US $3,500" and that's just for yer basic human. The thought of charging $85 a character makes me cringe. Heck, even just churning slightly customised characters out of Poser is worth more than that.

*edit* Even nothing-like-photoreal work is worth lots more than that. Please, StormRising, tell us you're joking. Oh, do. Or that you're using Texan dollars that are 500 times the size of normal dollars.

serge
05-09-2007, 12:42 PM
Uhm. That's about what I'd consider a minimum for one high-poly character (if by "high poly" you mean "near photoreal"). And I do mean minimum.
But that would be building up a character from the ground, right? Most people that take on jobs like these will have some 'base' characters (rigged and UV'd) where it's just a matter of pulling some points to get different models. But still, yeah $85 per character would be insane.
Anyhow, StormRising hasn't given enough information to make judgement on what the price should be.

Bog
05-09-2007, 01:01 PM
Sure he has. US $85 gets you your name in plain white text on screen for 10 seconds. In a sans-serif font. ;)

StereoMike
05-09-2007, 02:39 PM
What would I get for 190$?

Serifs.

hrgiger
05-09-2007, 02:54 PM
Your name in plain white text for 20 seconds.

Ztreem
05-09-2007, 03:14 PM
:eek: 1 Highpoly character for $85, WOW you're fast. That's what I would charge for around 1 hour of work.

bobakabob
05-09-2007, 03:37 PM
Heh... all that time and hard earned knowledge for a few bucks.

Throw the anatomy books on the fire, jack the lifedrawing classes and start cranking out Poser clones for a career :)

Dirk
05-09-2007, 04:41 PM
Hey I was wondering how much a freelance artist might want for 36 high poly characters. All the concept art is there, just model and simple rig, no animation.

I think to get the job done nice, around $3500,
thats around 85$ a character, this sound right? Ithink I'd need to go higher, but I want to see what you guys think.:hey:

Your client would have to pay more than $85 (up to 4 times as much) to buy a descent character on turbosquid - and these are sold non-exclusive!

Other than that, I can only say that $85 for a character is *MUCH* too low even if it's only a variation of an already existing character.

gerry_g
05-09-2007, 05:27 PM
I do a lot of ceramics and I usaly tun out a mug +uv's in around an hour for £40 ($79 us), the thought of having to do character work at that sort of price point is crazy

theo
05-09-2007, 06:07 PM
Hey I was wondering how much a freelance artist might want for 36 high poly characters. All the concept art is there, just model and simple rig, no animation.

I think to get the job done nice, around $3500,
thats around 85$ a character, this sound right? Ithink I'd need to go higher, but I want to see what you guys think.:hey:

Surely you jest...

sammael
05-09-2007, 07:04 PM
I think Bog has a good idea with the poser models. If they want something for nothing buy an old version of poser, you could probably even download an old one for free somewhere and give them objects straight out of poser. But rigging? shesh! I think you'll have to put the price up anyway!

Seriously, you work it out on paper, estimate how many hours you would spend doing this. The last quote I did was for 5 simple characters, some props plus 100 simple 5 second animations I quoted $36000 & im glad I didnt get the job because I would have been ripping myself off.

jasonazure
05-10-2007, 04:22 AM
I think some people misunderstand the FREE part of Freelance :D

Andyjaggy
05-10-2007, 07:46 AM
Did I read that right? 36, repeat 36, HIGH poly character for 85 dollars a character. Wow.

hrgiger
05-10-2007, 08:47 AM
Yeah, can I buy some?

StereoMike
05-10-2007, 08:56 AM
I can model a cube with 50000 polys.
_know your tools!_

I can model all 36 high poly characters in one hour.
It's all in the amount of subdivisions....

;)

mike

kopperdrake
05-10-2007, 09:09 AM
Ok - the concept stuff is there, but unless they're all wearing the same kit I'd assume they're all individual. I'd say, along with the chorus, you're looking at that price per character.

Total price? Say £54,000 - or $108,000 in off-world money :)

Maybe a discount for bulk allotment, though I'd be amazed at any one freelancer booking all their time up for that - you're essentially asking for a games design character team with that size of task :)

Andyjaggy
05-10-2007, 09:16 AM
But you should do it to build your portfolio :D

It's a great opportunity to get your stuff seen, and if all goes well it could in the end equate to more money and work.........................

Bog
05-10-2007, 10:17 AM
Andy?

Hush. Just... hush.

eagleeyed
05-10-2007, 10:34 AM
Wow, I am amazed at some of the prices I have seen on this. Sorry to admit this but some of the models I am working on I was planning to do for even less (had the numbers three and zero), and I had tried to make them detailed as possible with scratches etc.

Dont worry though, that will never happen now, Now I have seen the price ranges on this and other threads I might be charging a bit more.

And Andy, that is one fat cat, I also agree with Bog by saying Ssshhhhh! now I know the price ranges, keep the prices high. Works for everyone, except the people who are paying.

GandB
05-10-2007, 10:36 AM
You guys should see what people want to pay for a custom, fully rigged character for games over at one of the forums I moderate. I understand that most people have no idea as to what it takes to create art of this nature (I haven't even taken my first shot at a character yet), but at least try to imagine what kind of time it would take and put a dollar-per hour figure on it. Exclusive work will always increase the dollar amount.

I had one guy that wanted someone to model (and texture) him a Walther semi-auto, for $200.......did I mention he wanted it to be exclusive? Wait, there's more.....he wanted it for a model pack he was piecing together to sell for himself (he was up-front about that).:) Many of those people want packs with multiple characters; rigged/animated/textured, and ready to drop into the engine....for $20! A bit spoiled over there.

-Keith

Andyjaggy
05-10-2007, 10:41 AM
Yes there have been several threads in the past little while about pricing and freelance work. In the end it not only hurts you but the entire industry to work for cheap. I mean you don't have to be a prick and charge ridiculous rates and there are times you can work for less the you normally would. Like I am just getting my foot in the door and I am not making what I probably could be making, but I am getting good experience, working with great people and learning alot, so I am willing to do that at the moment. Still though it's not as ridiulcous as 36 high poly models for 3,000 bucks. That's just selling yourself short. This is stuff that not many people can do and we have all worked hard to get to where we are.

GandB
05-10-2007, 11:00 AM
As far as myself; I've done a "for-sale" pack of crates and barriers, to be used as game media. It was a bit of "testing the waters" for me, as well as learning what it takes to put something like that together on a small scale. I sell it for under $9 (non-exclusive), and I've made a few hundred off of it (given a few copies out as a prize now and then as well). I've also made a number of items that I give away as well. I have yet to do any high-poly work though.

I'm going to see where that type of work can take me; but I need to get solid with my skills first, and that'll take awhile.:)

-Keith

jasonwestmas
05-10-2007, 11:06 AM
36 Characters!!? Just how simple are these characters? I would have to base this on the concept drawings and style. I've made a character with two 2K color textures and a simple rig for $1,700.

cresshead
05-10-2007, 11:33 AM
well you won't get exclusive characters but...you could buy this pack of 104 characters [in 3 resolutions]

http://www.rocketbox-libraries.com/popup/images/cc/overview/casual05_m_h.jpg

http://www.rocketbox-libraries.com/images/cc/header_gfx.jpg

http://www.rocketbox-libraries.com/cc_model_overview_02.php

they're just over $3000 for the pack...and they're rigged up

Included are:

· 104 characters for 3ds Max (or Maya)
· 100 ready made animations
· each character in 3 different polycounts
· complete bone skeleton, skinning and 100 animations
· 2048 x 2048 pixel textures as photoshop psd files
· customizable layers + normal bump maps and specular maps

cresshead
05-10-2007, 11:40 AM
also you could use facegen to make 36 heads....but you'll need to upgrade to the distribrution liecence which is $900 more...or you could rebuild your heads from them by hand using them as a reference....in anycase that'll only get you 36 heads...no texure mapping you can use....you'll still need a bunch of bodies!

...the exclusive thing makes it expensive....other than that as people have suggested either use poser or turbosquid canned models....making models is time consuming so for exclusive models you have to be paid in FULL as you won't be ableto make any more money off of your work you did.

cresshead
05-10-2007, 12:13 PM
or some of these..
http://www.axyz-design.com/index.html

StormRising
05-10-2007, 06:05 PM
Yeah... I'm kinda dumb,:agree: I recently did a job with 12 high poly characters it took around 8 weeks, I made about $380 for each character when you break that job down. Thank you guys very much, I'm thinking $14,600 would be more sane, thats about $405 a piece for 36 characters.

Does that sound more in-line?

cresshead
05-10-2007, 06:34 PM
so you took 3.3 days per character at a price of $380 per character divide that by 26 hours...which mean you worked for $14.60 per hour or £7.30 per hour in the u.k. in the 3.3 days did you also uv/colur and texture them and also rig them up and that included a new face head and different clothes or was that mainly head swaping like on roughnecks tv show?

newsvixen8
05-10-2007, 06:41 PM
For exclusive characters? Not even close.

newsvixen8
05-10-2007, 06:42 PM
$405 apiece just doesn't sound right.

voriax
05-10-2007, 07:01 PM
I thought the way to do it was break it down into your hourly rate, figure out how long it would take, and get the total cost....

Then double it.
..or was that triple it?
:D

Seriously though, $400 for a high-poly realistic rigged character does sound a bit low. But then again, unless we see some of your final character work I don't think we can put a price on it.. Did you say you did some before? Can we see?

cresshead
05-10-2007, 07:13 PM
i was quoted $650 for a toon character cat a few months back from an artist over in the far east as i really like his capability to trasfer a sketch to a model was for a client and was cheaper/faster/better than than what i would have done in the timeframe..was not a photoreal human...so a human would be around $1000 to $3000 per exclusive model given a 'world price'..for that you'd maybe get somethng approaching this quality if you were lucky enough to find a really talented artist...

$3000 would be like the ''masha'' character level.
http://www.turbosquid.com/Search/Index.cfm/FuseAction/ProcessSmartSearch/istIncAuthor/Andrey%20Kravchenko/blAuthorExact/y

Lamont
05-10-2007, 07:16 PM
If you are full time on this, reuse parts between characters (hands, feet, chest). It would come out to about $1380 per character, done in 3~4 days each. No way I'd do 36 characters for that much. They'd get 2 characters at the most.

cresshead
05-10-2007, 07:19 PM
also you have to factor in 'ammends' if say 12 of the characters you create are not to the liking of the client you'll need to edit them or rebuild them to get them to sign off and pay you...so 3 days including ammends is very tight and really low pay...shelf stacking in tesco pays a simialr wage!

StormRising
05-10-2007, 08:16 PM
Dam, yeah they don't have def-maps or even normal maps etc.
Very low detail the 12 characters were, but dam I need to ask for a raise,.. lol!
Well I work for a start-up game company, so pay is not as high as It could be. BUT DAM! I need to ask for a raise!

Dirk
05-11-2007, 03:31 AM
Well I work for a start-up game company, so pay is not as high as It could be.

Actually, I think You are wasting Your time.

A start-up game company has either

- a healthy budget (if they could convince somebody to finance them), in that case they could pay much better.

- are able to adjust their ideas to their low budget, in which case they wouldn't ask for 36 high polygonal characters.

- will go down in flames like 99% of all game start-ups, because they want to produce something like "Crysis" with a three men crew in three weeks.


It might be much more rewarding to model Your own characters and sell them on Turbosquid, or offer them to game companies with a non-exclusive license.

Bog
05-11-2007, 04:06 AM
Dear God in Heaven he's not joking.

I need a lie-down, I'm feeling light-headed...

Storm, here are some patches. Here is some rubber cement. Here's a piece of sandpaper and a bike-pump. PLEASE STOP DEFLATING THE MARKET!!!!!

Selling decent characters (and I'm gonna assume yours are, until I have proof to the contrary) for that kind of price is insane. Utterly barking. And very, very bad for those of us who pay our mortgages, software prices, hardware prices and company-running overheads by doing this kind of work.

Rant over.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 04:19 AM
Some of you guys sound like greedy bastards to me.
2-3000 USD for a character?
I can charge £400 for a character sculpt, and it's high quality, and I'm still making a lot more money than anyone where I live.
That's without textures, just a high res sculpt, but I work fast, so I can make any character in a day, or 2 days if it's difficult, so that's £200 a day.
I don't know anyone who earns half that much unless they're in a very good job.
Greedy, flouncing artists, the lot of you.
Our work really isn't that hard, I taught myself how to do it on a few years, so don't give me that crap.

cresshead
05-11-2007, 04:31 AM
clients 'usually' want to change something though oddity...which means your 1 day could now be 2 or 3 days...so that £400 could be for a week and not 2 days depending on what they don't like about your model or if their needs change for the character for example...unless you specify that ammends/edits are charged at a day rate ontop of your £400 for a sculpt.

additional...i remember that i think proton charges around $800-$1000 for a character, his are more toon based ususally mind you...
which equates to your £400...[$800]

also you'd need to factor in texturing and then rigging the character....Hmmm....your on your way to at least 6 days work...which is £1200 by your calcs..or $2400....600 off of the $3000 your writing about!

Sensei
05-11-2007, 04:32 AM
Yeah.. It depends on how much you get in normal non-3d work and where you're living.. In Poland most of people that I know must work whole year to get $3600.. 12 months of crap job.. If you would give them 3d work for such price they would beg for it, even if they would have to learn it first.. :)

oDDity
05-11-2007, 04:41 AM
Still, even if I had only 2 characters to sculpt a week, at 400 each , that's £800 a week, which is seriously good income where I come from.
I suppose if you live in London ,where you have to play £20 for a cup of tea, it's not so hot.

Ztreem
05-11-2007, 04:47 AM
I could live with an income of £800 a week, it's a very good income if you live where I live. I think an avarage income here is around £1400 / month.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 04:48 AM
Yes, this is where the artiste/craftsman definition comes into it again. I'm happy earning a decent craftsman's wage, while some of you seem to saying 'but I'm an artiste, I should be earning more than those commoners'

Bog
05-11-2007, 05:04 AM
Some of you guys sound like greedy bastards to me.
2-3000 USD for a character?
I can charge £400 for a character sculpt, and it's high quality, and I'm still making a lot more money than anyone where I live.
That's without textures, just a high res sculpt, but I work fast, so I can make any character in a day, or 2 days if it's difficult, so that's £200 a day.
I don't know anyone who earns half that much unless they're in a very good job.
Greedy, flouncing artists, the lot of you.
Our work really isn't that hard, I taught myself how to do it on a few years, so don't give me that crap.

*sigh*

With Maya users billing UK £1,000 (darn near US$2000) per day then calling anyone on here a greedy bastard is underinformed, trolling, stupid or a combination of all three. And keep your pigeonholing, smallthink definitions of "artist, artiste and craftsman" out of it. Inverse snobbery is every bit as witlessly elitist as forward snobbery. I'm talking about what the job is worth, not the ego-stroking involved. Some of us don't actually need the ego bit.

As for flouncing? Only on thursdays, darling. In chiffon, I'm fabulous.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 05:21 AM
So, in other words, you are one of those greedy bastards, and more than that, you're proud of it.
'Everyone else is doing it, so I'm going to do it as well'
Fair enough.
You sound like one of those guys who is constantly eaten away by the idea that the next guy might be earning a few quid more than you.

Bog
05-11-2007, 05:25 AM
I'm one of those people whose work, working practices, facilities and overall experience is rated as being worth thousands of pounds per character by high-end clients, yes.

And I'm very proud of it, thank you.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 05:31 AM
You play the game better than me, that's for sure.

cresshead
05-11-2007, 05:31 AM
lovin this thread!

GandB
05-11-2007, 05:35 AM
All I need over here is less than $2000/month to be comfortable (that's using LW as a sole source of income). But, as I've said, I have a long way to go still to produce something that could call for that kind of money. In the meantime, I'll be making low-cost packs of media for Indy Game Developers; most such packs usually go for under $100, but you can make your money by mass sales. It all depends on what people are after at the time.

One of these days I'd like to try my hand at all this High-Poly work you guys are always talking about.

-Keith

Bog
05-11-2007, 05:38 AM
I'm not concerned with playing games, I'm concerned with doing a good job of running my little business. That means not undercutting the market as a whole.

If you say "what is this worth"? with regards to 3D graphics, the only yardstick you can measure against is the rest of the market as a whole. It's certainly not a life necessity, you can't eat it or use it to keep you warm. It's a luxury item, in a lot of places. It's only value is perceived value.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 05:39 AM
Well, I'm making an assumption from Bog's name and attitude that he's some middle class twit, who has had it beaten into him from childhood that he's better than the common folk and should never be ashamed of earning (conning) as much as he can possibly squeeze out of the world.
I, on the other hand, would be embarrassed if I earned something like 2 grand a week, doing something that I know is easy and not worth that much, and wouldn't tell anyone about it.

Bog
05-11-2007, 05:44 AM
*snigger* He funny.

StereoMike
05-11-2007, 05:54 AM
I, on the other hand, would be embarrassed if I earned something like 2 grand a week, doing something that I know is easy and not worth that much, and wouldn't tell anyone about it.

If there's one person on the whole planet you can't trust in matters of an impartial view on your person.... guess who that could be?
You?
I just plainly doubt you would refuse the money, when your client makes an offer (while he is impressed by your work).

mike

oDDity
05-11-2007, 05:55 AM
I guess the problem is that I've always had trouble telling the subtle differences between someone who's an 'astute businessman who knows his worth', and someone who's simply a greedy bastard.
You fall in the former category, no doubt.

Bog
05-11-2007, 05:56 AM
S'awright! If someone's embarassed by making money, and thinks there's something so horribly wrong in making it that he goes out of his way not to, then that's their problem, not mine.

*snigger* Middle-class twit... God, wait 'til I share that one at the Army and Navy club with Miffy and Pinkie and Snuzzle.... </irony>*snort*

cresshead
05-11-2007, 06:00 AM
value is something clients or consumers put on a product and not the people who make the stuff...oddity...have you ever watched the apprentice or dragon's den tv shows?....

if customers think what they are getting is worth the price, they'll pay it...if not they won't buy it...it's called market forces...it's how things work generally...

also you can have some wellie wearing grunt set up as a 'builder' and charge £60 a day and you can have wilson homes who are also 'builders' and they charge £300 as day for a similar capability....most people would sooner go to someone who is established and has a good client record [wilson homes] rather than a wellie wearing white van driver who's 'contact office' is his pay as you go mobile phone.

are you getting this?

there are layers of pricing...it's not just about the final product delivered it's about the service offered and the depth of understanding on a project that will give the client confidence in what they want from you as the sub contractor.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 06:01 AM
Well, you have to admit, you've a strange name for someone who's father worked on the docks and mother scrubbed toilets to keep you in shoes.
Anyway, I bet it helps with some of your clients.
'I'm Mark Hennessy-Barratt'
'Is that the the Kensington Barratts?'
'umm...yes'
Oh, I think I went to Eton witht your uncle, you've got the job'

oDDity
05-11-2007, 06:09 AM
Anyway, this is going way off topic, since bog doesn't even do character modeling, he does all sorts of animations and things, so obviously prices will vary a lot according to the job, whereas mine are pretty stable.

Bog
05-11-2007, 06:11 AM
*Laughs* I don't have to admit a damned thing, you're the one who dragged this down to the personal nevel, not me. I'm quite comfortable and happy with having earned my own way from a tender age, and have no urge to either justify myself in public, nor denigrate anyone else either. Anyway, I'm off to the pub, have a good weekend everyone.

theo
05-11-2007, 06:25 AM
I don't have to admit a damned thing, you're the one who dragged this down to the personal nevel, not me.

...his lack of common courtesy consistently overshadows his artistic abilities.

pauland
05-11-2007, 07:23 AM
I think all the latter part of this debate has proven is that market forces are very different in different parts of the world, even within the same country and perhaps even within the same city.

Bog is just outside London and I would assume that partly because of that he has regular media clients based in London where there is a high demand for all things media related and consequently higher budgets all due to supply and demand. Truth is that many clients want the job done well and will pay what they can afford to achieve that.

oDDIty, the media demand in NI is unlikely to be as rich as that in and around London, nor with such a buoyant labour market - hence your experience.

I don't earn a living from Lightwave, but in my area (developing in Flash), offered rates vary wildly - much higher in and around London, dropping to people demanding masses of different skills outside London for perhaps a quarter of the London rate. It's not just what you do, it's who you do it for and where they are.

Now, you could call a freelancer greedy for pushing for the best possible rate, but equally you could call the client greedy for trying to get the work done for the lowest rate possible. Whichever side of the equation you sit, we're all trying to make money. If £X is available for a project, I'd rather as much of that comes to me, not to someone else. What is absolutely certain is that if £3,000 is considered "the going rate" and I offer to do it for £1,000, then chances are that some middleman is pocketing the difference. I know from my own experience of an agency selling my services on for a 100% markup and another agency asking me specifically not to discuss my fee simply because they had other people working onsite who had agreed to be paid 40% less than me.

Ultimately people pay what a job is worth to them. If you do the work for less you keep the money in their pocket not yours.

It makes sense to maximise income while we can, because that's just good business sense. We won't always be in a position to choose.

Paul

(in case there's any misconception, my mother worked in a factory most of her life and my father did loads of low paid jobs. No plumbs or silver spoons here).

tyrot
05-11-2007, 07:28 AM
dear pauland

a very good post.

best

oDDity
05-11-2007, 07:48 AM
I agree, which is why bog is wrong, implying that everyone everywhere should be charging several thousands per model, or else they're fcuking the CG labour market for people like him.

colkai
05-11-2007, 07:59 AM
3D or property, both market forces and in London, you can bet your sweet doobries it's more expensive to live there than in the back of beyond working for a limited market with limited budgets.

I mean, if it costs you 200 quid a week to live and meet all ya bills, good for ya. I don't live anywhere near London, my mortgage alone is over double that amount, before life's little luxuries such as food and heat. I'd wager, my pitiful wage would not even get me a flat, let alone a house in the capital.

When someone is in the same area, at the mercy of the same market forces and living expenses, they can decide if the price is high or low, otherwise, their experience is not relevant.

After all, how cheap is 3D to produce out in the far East? Where it's currently going. Is that cutting into a persons market, even if they consider themselves "reasonably priced", or, due to the shoe being now upon the other foot, is it not seen as an animator working for a wage related to their area but dragging down the industry with under-priced cheap labour?

If someone wants you to produce work for £200, but the other client is willing to pay £400, would anyone turn them away based on superior "moral" stance? Or offer to work for half-price? Somehow, I very much doubt it.

Heck, I'll undercut the lot of ya, I don't do this as a day job so I only need beer money, beware ye scammers and highwaymen, I venture forth! :p :D

theo
05-11-2007, 08:17 AM
I agree, which is why bog is wrong, implying that everyone everywhere should be charging several thousands per model, or else they're fcuking the CG labour market for people like him.

Do you support a family? If so, is their standard of living very comfortable?

Are you buying your home with job earnings? If so, what is it worth?

Are you investing in your retirement? If so, how much to this point?

jasonwestmas
05-11-2007, 10:16 AM
Difficult? 3D? Depends on what you are doing and how much experience you have with a specific part of the pipeline. I'm not sure how one can argue difficulty verses valuable income. If I spend a lot of time on a certain discipline and become exceptionally good at it, does that mean that there is no room for improvement or that I should lower my wage as I age with experience? So what If I make some big bucks, what if I use those dollars to benefit someone else or many others?

theo
05-11-2007, 10:30 AM
....what if I use those dollars to benefit someone else or many others?

OR, yourself!

Good god man, it's OK to reap the rewards of being in business, as long as one is respectful and mindful of others and plays ethically.

jasonwestmas
05-11-2007, 10:42 AM
OR, yourself!

Good god man, it's OK to reap the rewards of being in business, as long as one is respectful and mindful of others and plays ethically.

Well yes, I have to be able to maintain myself and my studio, that takes mucho dinero. I thought that was obvious. :D

oDDity
05-11-2007, 12:40 PM
Do you support a family? If so, is their standard of living very comfortable?

Are you buying your home with job earnings? If so, what is it worth?

Are you investing in your retirement? If so, how much to this point?
That's all irrelevant, because the average wage where I live is under 500 a week, and everyone manages to keep a family, buy a house, save for a pension etc.
Therefore, I could easily charge only £250 for a model, only work 2 days a week, and still be in line with everyone else in my area.
Whether you think I'm undermining the CG jobs market by doing so, I couldn't give a crap.
The reason?
Well, I simply don't think that what we do is important or hard, compared to what a nurse does. How much to they earn?
Some of you seem to have a very inflated opinion of what your 'skills' are worth ,and feel you should be earning above the common Joe.
Not me.

jasonwestmas
05-11-2007, 12:55 PM
That's all irrelevant, because the average wage where I live is under 500 a week, and everyone manages to keep a family, buy a house, save for a pension etc.
Therefore, I could easily charge only £250 for a model, only work 2 days a week, and still be in line with everyone else in my area.
Whether you think I'm undermining the CG jobs market by doing so, I couldn't give a crap.
The reason?
Well, I simply don't think that what we do is important or hard, compared to what a nurse does. How much to they earn?
Some of you seem to have a very inflated opinion of what your 'skills' are worth ,and feel you should be earning above the common Joe.
Not me.

Are you talking about graphics in general? This is not important? That doesn't make sense. Assisting the visual is just as an important service as assisting a doctor. It's visual communication and expression. If that's not important then I better go lay my life down for the service of something else.

Lightwolf
05-11-2007, 01:05 PM
I could live with an income of £800 a week, it's a very good income if you live where I live. I think an avarage income here is around £1400 / month.
Now, is that before or after taxes? Before or after you've paid for your hard/software, electricity, insurances etc. (you know, the kind of stuff handled by an emploeyer most of the time).
Have you also thought about the time when ther may not be a job around?

Cheers,
Mike

oDDity
05-11-2007, 01:48 PM
Ok, so since you can't get enough regular jobs, what you do is overcharge the few clients you do get t make up for it?
Nice.

lion111
05-11-2007, 02:12 PM
@oDDity nice to have you back at this forum

where i live you make some holes in a box and call it archviz
result 200 - xxxx Euro:lightwave

art
05-11-2007, 02:55 PM
where i live you make some holes in a box and call it archviz
result 200 - xxxx Euro:lightwave

hey, maybe I should go back :)

StormRising
05-11-2007, 03:00 PM
Well yes, I have to be able to maintain myself and my studio, that takes mucho dinero. I thought that was obvious. :D
I wanna work in your studio! You sound like your thinking along my lines.

StormRising
05-11-2007, 03:08 PM
[/QUOTE]
Well, I simply don't think that what we do is important or hard, compared to what a nurse does. How much to they earn?
Some of you seem to have a very inflated opinion of what your 'skills' are worth ,and feel you should be earning above the common Joe.
Not me.[/QUOTE]

Dude! did you go to school for what you do? The common joe didn't thats why he makes a crappy living. In this world you are rewarded for educating yourself.
Sorry but we DO deserve more than some nobody who cleans bathrooms, or builds cabinets at a wood mill like I use to do. Also belive it or not some people are less educated and get even more money! Now thats becuase they try harder than the average joe. Don't confuse skilled/talented people in with un-skilled highschool drop-outs.

StormRising
05-11-2007, 03:27 PM
Well, thanks everybody. I've know I'm not making as much as I could at some other company, but I'm not under as much pressure as other game companies place on their emplyoees.(I know I have frriends pulling hair-out in other companies) Some days go by with littile modeling and work. Others are more intensive. In this way my pay evens out a bit. I just asked my boss for a raise, he's going to see what he can do.

Now thats why I'm here because he's usally honest about money and stuff.
I know he wants to take care of me to keep me here. Way better than a company thats just says if your not happy here,then leave. Also I'm getting a good chance at being art director here someday, now thats always gonna pay more than just modeling/animating.
By the way It was friend with the need for 36 characters IF he gets money.

Ztreem
05-11-2007, 03:55 PM
Now, is that before or after taxes? Before or after you've paid for your hard/software, electricity, insurances etc. (you know, the kind of stuff handled by an emploeyer most of the time).
Have you also thought about the time when ther may not be a job around?

Cheers,
Mike

You're right, If it's before taxes and money straight into the firm it's not that much. I was thinking of it as money in the pocket after taxes, so yeah you have to charge more. I wouldn't do a job for less then 65€ per hour. I'm doing my last scenes on my degree work now, then I will start working. Hopefully I will find clients that are willing to pay me as much as I want. :)

Bog
05-11-2007, 03:57 PM
Ok, so since you can't get enough regular jobs, what you do is overcharge the few clients you do get t make up for it?
Nice.


Had one. Chose to do this instead, where it's possible to be unique and make a difference. Just because you want us all to see ourselves as window-cleaners and bin-men doesn't mean we have to. Live with it.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 04:01 PM
Dude! did you go to school for what you do? The common joe didn't thats why he makes a crappy living. In this world you are rewarded for educating yourself.
Sorry but we DO deserve more than some nobody who cleans bathrooms, or builds cabinets at a wood mill like I use to do. Also belive it or not some people are less educated and get even more money! Now thats becuase they try harder than the average joe. Don't confuse skilled/talented people in with un-skilled highschool drop-outs.
No I didn't go to school for this, I taught myself in my spare time over the last couple of years by messing around for fun.
Stop trying to insinuate that CG is hard, because it's not.
That's why doctors do 7 years training, and all you have to do it learn to tell the left mouse button from the right one and what the word 'polygon' means..

Bog
05-11-2007, 04:05 PM
No I didn't go to school for this, I taught myself in my spare time over the last couple of years by messing around for fun.
Stop trying to insinuate that CG is hard, because it's not.
That's why doctors do 7 years training, and all you have to do it learn to tell the left mouse button from the right one and what the word 'polygon' means..

You've describe learning ZBrush or Mudbox. Now describe learning to be an animator, and show samples.

No, hold on - I forgot. You can't. Because rigging is for TDs, and not something a modeler needs to deal with.

I cannot stress this enough: A static model is worth roughly what oDDity is saying. Partially because people like him have made it so, partially because normal displacer tools makes static sculpture so easy If your work moves, if you work it with the loops and whorls required to breathe life and emotion into your work, then it is more comparable to being a doctor - because it'll take you years for your observation of motion and kinematics to be good enough to mimic life, and like any good doctor you'll never stop learning.

If you're just doing static sculpture, your job's a lot easier. Pretty sure most of us 'round here like to see their stuff move, though.

jasonwestmas
05-11-2007, 04:16 PM
I wanna work in your studio! You sound like your thinking along my lines.

In the end I want to benefit others sith my work in any way I can, but to get there takes a lot of patience and people willing to fund my projects. If that means doing mundane work once in a while, so be it, but I do have my limits.

On a side note, I don't think education has anything to do with how much someone should get paid. Education whether it is instituted or not is just another means of making connections to higher levels of power. Power meaning the ability to affect a greater mass of material, media and/or people. If I were to move an object and it benefitted someone I would esteem that just as great as moving several larger objects if both required the same amount of effort and will power. I find the most beauty in things that are done for other people and are done to the best of someone's ability. This is because it's all relative. Someone can always perform better the next time but the accumulation of knowledge is limitless. So do we appreciate someone on how much power they have or how much effort they put into the task or project at hand? I know companies have their "Standards" but that is aways changing for the better or worse.

Lightwolf
05-11-2007, 04:24 PM
Ok, so since you can't get enough regular jobs, what you do is overcharge the few clients you do get t make up for it?
Nice.
Lol... no. But I don't know anybody in the biz who works 2080 billable hours per year either.

Cheers,
Mike

jasonwestmas
05-11-2007, 04:25 PM
You've describe learning ZBrush or Mudbox. Now describe learning to be an animator, and show samples.

No, hold on - I forgot. You can't. Because rigging is for TDs, and not something a modeler needs to deal with.

I cannot stress this enough: A static model is worth roughly what oDDity is saying. Partially because people like him have made it so, partially because normal displacer tools makes static sculpture so easy If your work moves, if you work it with the loops and whorls required to breathe life and emotion into your work, then it is more comparable to being a doctor - because it'll take you years for your observation of motion and kinematics to be good enough to mimic life, and like any good doctor you'll never stop learning.

If you're just doing static sculpture, your job's a lot easier. Pretty sure most of us 'round here like to see their stuff move, though.


Uh yeah, there are a lot more things to learn than mouse clicks, hot keys and how to tie polygons together. Don't get me started on the entire pipeline you know. Geeze, poly modeling is only a small part of the project, though it is important. Even in traditional art there is far more to understand than simply replicating something you see in reality, what happens when you have to create a composition that you have never seen before. If all one can do is copy something else then you are in a real bind. Concept is not a simple thing, but yeah if all someone wants to do is create random stuff with no reasoning behind it, I would say that is quite easy.

Bog
05-11-2007, 04:26 PM
*flips open his wallet, showing Jason his Artistic Lincense*

Yeah, man. Yeah.

*tucks wallet away*

There's so gorram much more to it than modelling.

Lightwolf
05-11-2007, 04:27 PM
Stop trying to insinuate that CG is hard, because it's not.

So, how come people that have been doing it for ages still miss deadlines or produce crappy jobs?
Then again, that might be different if all you do is model... ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
05-11-2007, 04:28 PM
Oddity, I dont think that you get this right...
I dont think that a 3d- artist is as highly trained as a medical doctor and certainly does not have as much responsibility, but being a good, well rounded 3d- artist takes training and experience... A 3d- artist kinda needs to be a jack of all trades. You need to know a little bit about optics, anatomy, videography, color theory, physics, math, architecture (if you want to do jobs in that area as well), also mechanics, you need to know the job of a gaffer, you need to understand compositing, sometimes video editing, sometimes you need to do photography (e.g. for textures or environment maps). You dont need to excell in any of these fields (even though the more you know the better), but you need to understand the basics and thats quite a lot of stuff to learn...

I do LightWave courses here and even though operating LW comes very naturally for me, many people are having some problems. Not everyone gets the concept of particle systems, hypervoxels, even the difference between subpatches and polygons, or an Alpha map right away.
Part of this is that you have to learn a lot of vocabulary (industry terms).
At least for people here, where english is not our native language industry terms are sometimes hard to grasp.
Then there are of course things like resolutions to render in (gee there even are many ad agencies that dont the concept of DPI and pixel resolution and how they play together or dont play together). Explain to someone why 16:3 widescreen PAL has the same resolution as 4:3, how motion blur works, what a UV Map is (anyone remember when 6.0 came out? I remember lots of people having a really hard time understanding the concept of UV Maps).
If you have never heard the word UV Map before, it does not tell you anything, sorry... and even then you need to get some kind of solid explanation of it, in order to understand it.
Now you Oddity seem to be some kind of genius because you never had to learn any of this, but there are people that I have trained (successfully) that had to learn these things before they could apply them in their daily work (mostly professional CAD- designers).
CU
Elmar

StormRising
05-11-2007, 06:09 PM
I know learning first hand from experienced people made a massive impact on my work. Trade secrects make a world of change. So my point is some people never aspire to get educated in order to get a better job. Well be it if you learn by your self, go to school, or both like most. You WILL get a better paycheck if you know your stuff. On a construction site the welders and plumbers, electricians, HVAC guys make the most money. Everybody else there usually makes less because they didn't go to school.

Thats my point,. and it's not just centered around education, or 3D being hard. It is about being good at what you do, worth your charge rate. I mean some cabinets I built(which takes a skill worth its pay) the costomer could pay anywhere from 18,000 to 3,000 depending on the quality of work for the same size cabinets. This hold true for all skilled trades, the amount of skill is influencial to the rate/pay. Some doctors make crapy diagnosis too, lets not start on all the pill pushing companies. My girlfriend works in a pharmacy she sees trends in one pill as the pharmacutical reps. for that pill are in town. So some doctors also don't really need/use much education they just need big bags of free samples. Hey,hey?:D

Anyway now this forum has gone way answering my question. So... yeah,

mjcrawford
05-11-2007, 06:13 PM
oDDity is a vary talented sculptor, however he suffers from a serious persecution complex. For some reason he seams to think that he is some kind of martyr because he charges less money than BOG, but then he is not doing near the work that BOG does.

It would be like comparing someone who could draw a really cool car from scratch to someone who produced a prototype from scratch. Naturally the prototype would cost a lot more. That does not make the prototype builders “greedy bastards” (your words oDDity) it simply means that you pay for what you get.

If I needed a high quality model I would much rather pay $800 US than $2000, but if the $800 did not have textures or a full rig and I did not have texture artist or riggers, I Am screwed and I should have spent the 2k.

I think that it is a shame that the CG industry has not formed a Union or Guild or something (at least to my knowledge) to regulate prices (with some degree of latitude for skill level of course maybe even as oDDity sort of implied have journeymen, masters, etc.) to prevent underbidding and overbidding.

musick
05-11-2007, 06:37 PM
Yep, i totally agree. Before I started 3d i was a chef. In order to become a great chef, generally you need to have a great chef to learn from. This is how it is IMO in technical artistic fields, it is not just about the technique, its as much about the execution, time management and logistics that go into the final product. A big thing is consistancy also.
Now that im studying CG/LW i find myself in a position where my tutors are highly skilled industry people, that coupled with a small class and full time study, hopefully I'll come out the other end with enough skills to get me into the industry.

To keep this on topic... What is the secret to the photorealistic people in cg these days, eg marvel alliance trailer, last flight of osiris etc. Is it more the polygons/facial structure or is it more the texture and surfaces that make the model so realistic? Im guessing its a bit of both, just thought id see what you all had to say, as you all seem pretty knowledgeable.

I know learning first hand from experienced people made a massive impact on my work. Trade secrects make a world of change.

bobakabob
05-11-2007, 06:53 PM
oDDity is a vary talented sculptor, however he suffers from a serious persecution complex. For some reason he seams to think that he is some kind of martyr because he charges less money than BOG, but then he is not doing near the work that BOG does.



Holy Lightwave Cow! Oddity is back. Flame on :D

oDDity
05-11-2007, 11:43 PM
So, how come people that have been doing it for ages still miss deadlines or produce crappy jobs?


You're assuming it's because it's a hard job, but that's a big leap to make.
More likely because the people that are attracted to CG, much like the people you find doing art degrees, are a bunch of lazy, hippy, workshy fops who see a nice little opportunity to earn good money with a minimum of effort.
All the real achievers are off doing real work, with merit.
Of course, getting an actual job in a studio is different, they soon realise they have to do 15 hours days for no extra money sometimes, but that's still not becasue the job is hard, it's because the studios are too greedy to employ enough people to so the work that needs to be done.

oDDity
05-11-2007, 11:56 PM
oDDity is a vary talented sculptor, however he suffers from a serious persecution complex. For some reason he seams to think that he is some kind of martyr because he charges less money than BOG, but then he is not doing near the work that BOG does.

Bog is certainly not better at any individual CG skill than I am, he's just a better businessman, better at playing the game, plus he live sin th eright area and has the right contacts.
We're not even competitors though, since he couldn't sculpt a character to save his life.
I was only taking issue with him laughing at, and deriding people who don't charge as much as he does for Cg work

oDDity
05-12-2007, 12:09 AM
Still, bog, now you know how little I charge, the next time you have a sculpting job and need someone, you can employ me and pocket the other 2,000 yourself. Surely that 2000 in your pocket is enough to make up for the fact you don't like my attitude :D

sammael
05-12-2007, 01:16 AM
Lets not forget the original question in this thread, £400 is still a damn sight more reasonable for this type of character work than $85 US per character.
Anyone working for $85 would be ripping themself off blind.
£400 seems reasonalbe to me, where I live that translates to $952 AUD if it took me only 1-2 days to make a character I would be earning more than anyone that I know. More likely it would take me 3-4 days to make a high detail character with no textures and I would still be earning good money. I would do it for less money to be honest. Mind you I do 3D stuff more out of passion than greed.

Nice to see you back Oddity.

StereoMike
05-12-2007, 01:25 AM
Don't feed the troll.
There's plenty of stuff oddy just craps out to get people upset.

e.g. He must definitely know what market forces are, that little supply and big demand result in a high price. In the end he knows which letters to use to form words. That implies he went to a school.

There are enough "nurses" and "bin cleaners", that's why you hardly can make a living with that (here in Germany). If there would be only very few nurses and a whole lot of physycians, you would get way more money as a nurse.
Another example: If you dress as a nurse and go to the next pub, who would catch more flying beer mugs (with his head)? Your casual dresses friend or you? Of course you in the nurse dress, cause there's enough of casual dressed guys in the pub, but only one 3d guy dressed as a nurse.
See, supply and demand! They supply the mugs you didn't demanded!

mike

Lightwolf
05-12-2007, 03:28 AM
You're assuming it's because it's a hard job, but that's a big leap to make.
No, I'm assuming - erm, I know - that there is a lot more that comes into play but skill.
10 years ago I thought: "hey, if you're good enough you'll make it anywhere". You know what? That's not true.

As for getting into this trade to be rich ... *ouch* better think again and look for a different line of work.

Cheers,
Mike

Dirk
05-12-2007, 03:41 AM
£400 seems reasonalbe to me, where I live that translates to $952 AUD if it took me only 1-2 days to make a character I would be earning more than anyone that I know. More likely it would take me 3-4 days to make a high detail character with no textures and I would still be earning good money.

But do not forget that a "simple rig" is required, too. Now, let's assume that these 36 characters have different clothing, maybe some pieces of armor, etc.: Rigging, testing deformations, re-rigging, using weightmaps, testing...


Creating 36 high polygonal characters is more a job for a whole team, not one person, imho.

...

As for the whole pricing discussion, I would like to add this:

When working for an ad agency, the work of a 3D designer / animator might have to pass half a dozen people or more before it gets approved. The bigger or more important the agency or their client is, the more people usually will have a say when it comes to creative work like 3D. Very often, the 3D designer has no direct contact to the client of the ad agency, the communication might be difficult and time consuming, because neither the people in the ad agency nor their client have any idea about 3D - and the agency will insist on their middleman position. Now think of a 3D Animation with some detail, and / or something that includes some technical details - and You'll know why 3D animation isn't really cheap...

sammael
05-12-2007, 03:58 AM
Sure but making 36 characters, one would also assume that parts could be re-used even if every character had to be unique. Definately the rig could be re-used for the most part with a bit of extra tweaking.
Just something else to consider.

sammael
05-12-2007, 04:21 AM
Hmm like others have said maybe stormrising should post a work example before we can put a price to it. I cant seem to find any work that has been posted previously.
Might not be worth $85 for all we know...
I would assume that anyone serious about work on this scale would write up a detailed estimate to work out loosely how long it would take, allow for client requested changes and overheads and start from there. You would'nt want to commit to making these characters for such a low price without bothering to even estimate the time involved and then find out that it takes you 6 months to complete them.

Bog
05-12-2007, 06:11 AM
Still, bog, now you know how little I charge, the next time you have a sculpting job and need someone, you can employ me and pocket the other 2,000 yourself. Surely that 2000 in your pocket is enough to make up for the fact you don't like my attitude :D

As you mention it, no. When I farm work on, I give the vast majority to the person who does the work. No other way is equable, ethical or honourable. The person doing the work is the one making the money, and therefore is the one who should receive it. Taking a finder's fee for the work is fair play - in my case, I usually ask 10% of the price of the job, not counting VAT which I have to give to the gubmint anyway.

I've worked through some agencies who take as much as 50% - that is being a greedy bastard.

I don't hire people as though they were components, though - the ability to build a working relationship with someone based on mutual respect and understanding is a huge part of that. Without wishing to get all psychological, or without wishing to cast any aspersions, I don't think you and I could acheive that kind of rapport. Sorry.

oDDity
05-12-2007, 08:20 AM
I think you might me right for once...

newsvixen8
05-12-2007, 11:02 AM
Always a pleasure to see self-righteous finger-pointing and name-calling returning to the forums from whence they were previously banned. The subsequent increase in blood pressure means I can skip exercising today.

Andyjaggy
05-12-2007, 11:07 AM
It's true but no one is forcing you to respond to him and participate in the threads that he is. If you don't like what he is saying and don't like all the arguing then just ignore him.

newsvixen8
05-12-2007, 11:17 AM
You are so correct, Andyjaggy. Dang, now I have to go running...

iconoclasty
05-12-2007, 12:29 PM
If you don't like what he is saying and don't like all the arguing then just ignore him.

I hope you're not suggesting a forum-wide boycott on responding to Oddi's posts.

Andyjaggy
05-12-2007, 01:01 PM
No I'm not. I'm just saying no one is forcing you to pay attention to him.

iconoclasty
05-12-2007, 01:14 PM
I know, I was joking. And I agree with you.

Andyjaggy
05-12-2007, 02:06 PM
Although a forum wide colaborative boycott could be interesting............

oDDity
05-12-2007, 05:38 PM
Always a pleasure to see self-righteous finger-pointing and name-calling returning to the forums from whence they were previously banned. The subsequent increase in blood pressure means I can skip exercising today.

Hardly surprising you've got high blood pressure, living in that third world craphole that is Philadelphia.
I've been hearing [i]a lot[/]i about it recently from one of your fellow citizens.
Don't take it out on me though, move somewhere you won't be wondering if some 12 year old punk is going to stick a gun in your back for your wallet.

cresshead
05-12-2007, 06:24 PM
he just has an opionion that differs from the majority on most subjects...who's to say he's wrong and we're right?

additional, mind you 'odd' what about the kneecapping of people in your own country?

flakester
05-12-2007, 07:34 PM
Been following this thread for all the time I have had spare recently....

First up, Howdy all!!, I've been quiet for too long a time!

Back on track:

The price of work is somewhat relative;

Relative to overheads, and incorporating what is generally perceived to be the industry standard, within reason.

.... are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin....

When I was just on the cusp of leaving Uni (Yes, I'm 'educated'), I was approached by a company who had seen my showreel - and liked my style of work, for a quote on a job.

The quote came to me third in line, after two of the big (possibly the biggest, at the time) players in Soho had been asked for quotes on the same thing.

The very detailed brief was emailed, and I gave an honest price on what was laid down. My quote turned out to be £27,000. The client reeled in shock!!

I was like "Whoa, did I do some bad sums?"

My contact made it clear that his reaction was a pleasant shock, seeing as he had been quoted a sniff over £90,000 by two of the Soho studios, whose names I shall omit. (They both still produce absolutely stunning work that I'm a fan of BTW!)

The difference (having learned some things in the last two and a bit years since going into business a proper, as it were) lay in the fact that back then, I had only one person, a roof and some bills to take care of. This doesn't mean that I underquoted on an hourly rate, though we all do this from time to time - dependant on client and budget available - it's just that the quote took into consideration just that; the hourly rate + roof, bills, food, beer and software/hardware - for one person.

The job didn't come to me, through no direct fault of my own - but I learned from this, that location does matter a bit, you have to consider the overall overheads too. The people bidding against me for the work had hefty premises with hefty staffing numbers to boot, something that $85 per character would not cover in the case mentioned by the O.P. (not actually sure this remuneration would cover £p/h, roof, bills, beer and food for one bod really!).

Yes, I believe we - as artists, should stick within a bracket of pricing for our hourly work per operator, or per studio if you have that many folk working on the job, i.e - same price (most likely plus slightly higher overheads), quicker return of work).

And @ BOG, yes - I wholeheartedly agree that when subbing work out, the majority of the funds should go to the person/people doing the work. It is only right.

So yeah, stick to your guns when you have the room to do so, it doesn't strictly come down to the education (I know a few really dim folk with Degress and Masters!) - my head of school and head Lecturer at Uni were crap, we taught ourselves. But it does have a lot to do with placing an honest and worthwhile value on your skills, abilities and knowledge.

Heck, us UK folk don't even blink when we're told by a motor fitter or plumber that the rate is £45 (or more) per hour for labour, why should the folk at the paying ends of our inustries be given the opportunity to baulk?

Food for thought.

flakester.

BazC
05-13-2007, 01:11 AM
Hardly surprising you've got high blood pressure, living in that third world craphole that is Philadelphia.
I've been hearing [i]a lot[/]i about it recently from one of your fellow citizens.
Don't take it out on me though, move somewhere you won't be wondering if some 12 year old punk is going to stick a gun in your back for your wallet.

Oh how I've missed that sunny, upbeat personality, the incisive but supportive criticism, the reasoned and unbiased commentary. Welcome back Oddity!:D

colkai
05-13-2007, 03:36 AM
Folks, there IS a reason for the "add to ignore list" you know, might I suggest people start using it? I'm sure it would save a LOT of forum space being "wasted" on pointless back N forth.

StormRising
05-14-2007, 08:30 PM
Oh, just moving the tool around, oh this is just dream job... crazy. this fourm lead to some dumb responses.

My skill just made me more money today, and I wasn't easy. I think I got the job because whoever did the other job must of thought 3D was easy, and did a crappy job.

LOL! I love making what I'm worth, I deserve it becuase I enjoy doing that much extra for the client. Makingsure not to just do whats easy.

StormRising
03-20-2011, 01:18 AM
Wow, looking back years later.... Thanks guys! I make much, much more than $85 a character now :)

gordonrobb
03-20-2011, 03:52 AM
Why don't you give us an example of the concept art, and an idea what they will be used for (cartoon, game, animation, realtime etc)

cagey5
03-20-2011, 04:53 AM
Check the dates. This thread was started 4 years ago.

OnlineRender
03-20-2011, 05:08 AM
Check the dates. This thread was started 4 years ago.

the ironic thing is the price he wanted to charge four years ago , is probably a good estimate now " in this market "

Sensei
03-20-2011, 05:15 AM
I know people in Poland who are getting 3600 usd for whole year working.. ;)
8*22*12 = 2112 hours in work.

Algae998
03-20-2011, 09:54 AM
I had the same questions when I first started freelancing just over a year ago (and still do!). Trying to figure out a price or rate was almost more difficult than the job itself :P
Its tricky because it depends on who youre working with, what they want, what your skill level is, how fast you are and if youre contracted to do something you know well or something youd need to research.
I think my biggest mistake was locking myself into a set price range. Its very difficult to ask for more when you always charge a certain amount and the client doesnt understand why you are asking for more.

Not too sure if this is the proper thread for it but what kind of money transfers do you major freelancers use? Paypal, checks, money orders? Im still searching for the fastest/safest/cheapest/easiest way to do business nationally and internationally.

bpritchard
03-20-2011, 10:03 AM
Heya Algae998,

For us we still mainly get paid by check, although a couple of companies i've worked for used a direct wire transfer (which was OUTSTANDING!!). Oddly i haven't worked w/many if any people that would be willing to use paypal (although i would love to have something setup to do so).

Algae998
03-20-2011, 10:16 AM
I've used paypal a bunch of times for an overseas client. Only down side is that if you have the free account, you can only withdraw a certain amount each month ($500/month I think). Plus paypal takkes a hefty chip of your transfer so you have to charge more to get the original amount you want. It works in a pinch and once and a while but I'm keeping my eyes open for other options.

Hominid 3D
03-21-2011, 08:07 AM
The $3500 may cover developing the basemesh from which the other characters will be derived.

Add a zero to your figure and you´ll get closer to a realistic price.

Hominid 3D
03-21-2011, 08:23 AM
Uuups, sorry, commented on some Oddity ramblings not realizing this is an old thread and that he probably doesn´t even work anymore, LOL.

Sensei
03-21-2011, 09:02 AM
The $3500 may cover developing the basemesh from which the other characters will be derived.

Add a zero to your figure and you´ll get closer to a realistic price.

That depends on where you are and where is your client. For >99% of Earth for such price, you would get nothing but 10 minutes long laugh on you.. ;)

alexos
03-21-2011, 09:27 AM
the ironic thing is the price he wanted to charge four years ago , is probably a good estimate now " in this market "

Oh man. You're actually right. What a depressing thought! Time for my monthly "is there really a future for this 3D thing?" crisis...

ADP.

Hominid 3D
03-21-2011, 01:07 PM
That depends on where you are and where is your client. For >99% of Earth for such price, you would get nothing but 10 minutes long laugh on you.. ;)

Sorry for being dense, but please clarify. Did you mean to say that ca 30 detailed and animation-ready models for $35.000 is too low? Or too high?

???

Obviously it depends on the client and type of end-product. You won´t get a TRON or CLU for 35.000, naturally.

And if you do very simple cartoon characters for an iPhone game developer who lives next door on spaghetti it will be way too much.

Anyway, I´d like to understand what you meant, really didn´t get it ;-)

OnlineRender
03-21-2011, 01:14 PM
Uuups, sorry, commented on some Oddity ramblings not realizing this is an old thread and that he probably doesn´t even work anymore, LOL.

You do not and will not understand the humor in that statement

Hominid 3D
03-21-2011, 01:24 PM
You do not and will not understand the humor in that statement

Oh I do, but it doesn´t really matter ;-)

Sensei
03-21-2011, 01:40 PM
According to Wikipedia average GDP per person in Unites States is 46,000 usd.. And you want 35,000 usd for virtual not exiting thing, which regular even American is earning in 277 days? 75% of whole year spend in work.. ?

35,000 usd is 18 years of every single day eating in restaurant for me.. ;)
I am not talking about some sh*t food, but normal.. chicken in Vietnamese style costs 5 usd for 500 grams..
http://g.wieszjak.pl/p/_wspolne/pliki_infornext/78000/mieso_78483.jpg

Making diner in house- probably 36-54 years of every day eating..

I can imagine, in 75% of Earth people can get it even much cheaper..

Hominid 3D
03-21-2011, 01:52 PM
Well, we aren´t discussing chicken or average GDP, are we?

The "average" worker doesn´t have to maintain two or more computers and several software licenses.

I live in Europe, too, but more on the Iberian side.

All I know is that I can easily get 500-1000 € for a cartoony character model when I work with one of my regular contacts (usually small video production houses and middle-sized ad agencies). Same for one reasonably detailed product model (which I do more than characters).

Hm, a 3d visualization of a building with 10 perspective renders at high res goes for around € 2.500 here. Doesn´t mean I haven´t done some for 300 for some poor student or friend, though.

As I said, context and circumstances have a lot to do with pricing, obviously.

So no, $35.000 for more than 30 models doesn´t shock me at all.

As to "a not existing product"...uhhh, you lost me there.
The same applies to music, software and e-books. Just bc you can´t smell, touch or sit on it doesn´t make it a "non existing product".

I´m sure you don´t consider the TrueArt plugins "virtual not exiting things", do you?

Don´t depreciate our line of work like that ;-)

But I´ll take you up on the comparison of value.

I have spent around € 20.000 on hard and software in 3 years. Admittedly that includes some "luxury" items like a NextEngine, a big Cintiq and some HD Video stuff.
Apart from that I need to live resonably, too. And I really don´t want to sit for 35 years in a dark room eating chicken wings, ya know? ;-)

Man, you´ve made me hungry now, LOL.


According to Wikipedia average GDP per person in Unites States is 46,000 usd.. And you want 35,000 usd for virtual not exiting thing, which regular even American is earning in 277 days? 75% of whole year spend in work.. ?

35,000 usd is 18 years of every single day eating in restaurant for me.. ;)
I am not talking about some sh*t food, but normal.. chicken in Vietnamese style costs 5 usd for 500 grams..
http://g.wieszjak.pl/p/_wspolne/pliki_infornext/78000/mieso_78483.jpg

Making diner in house- probably 36-54 years of every day eating..

I can imagine, in 75% of Earth people can get it even much cheaper..

Andrewstopheles
03-21-2011, 02:07 PM
how many hours is it going to take each model? how much do you want to make per hour?
take those two numbers and multiply
take the result and double it
that's what you should charge
works for me
if you can shave hours off due to efficiencies, duplication, etc pass some of that savings on to the customer
keep in mind, you should have a clause for scope creep, never seen a project that didn't suffer from it
if they don't want to pay you what you are reasonably worth then only do the project if its in YOUR OWN best interests
good luck

Sensei
03-21-2011, 02:15 PM
Mine work is not existing too - software.. Just electric impulses in RAM..
This means the only input is knowledge and experience, without price of source materials, like in the real production business. Which means anybody can get in it very easily.


The "average" worker doesn´t have to maintain two or more computers and several software licenses.

For $35k you can get 35 core i7 computers... ;)
Neither "average" worker, or 3d artist just modeling needs so much.
Thing change a bit for 3d artists which are also rendering animations.

Hominid 3D
03-21-2011, 02:35 PM
Mine work is not existing too - software.. Just electric impulses in RAM..
This means the only input is knowledge and experience, without price of source materials, like in the real production business. Which means anybody can get in it very easily.



For $35k you can get 35 core i7 computers... ;)
Neither "average" worker, or 3d artist just modeling needs so much.
Thing change a bit for 3d artists which are also rendering animations.

I´ve edited my last post while you wrote going a bit more into the comparison of values thing.

:)

And Sensei, now PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don´t get me wrong or be offended when I say that polish prices and GDP etc etc are not really a measure for ANYTHING in Europe.

I have an hourly rate of around € 20 which is not that high over here. Obviously 20 Euro won´t get me as many meals here in Spain or Portugal as in Poland, so we´re really talking very different economic circumstances here.

Just let me tell you that $ 35.000 is really NOT that much for 36 detailed characters.

It just isn´t, even if it could get you a 1000 i7 boxes (which, again, is not what we´re discussing here).

Also, saying that "anybody" can get into programming....uhhhh, wrong. My mom has a laptop and is an avid internet surfer. "Hey Mom, could you quickly write a plugin for LW for me?" Not really.