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Johnny
06-23-2003, 05:08 PM
based on Apple's demonstration and web-published benchmark tests, are the new G5s all they were touted to be?

Is this about what can be expected from first-round crop?

what about the 3K Ghz macs due by year's end?

J

toby
06-23-2003, 06:30 PM
3000 Ghz? that'll be cool! We'll have layer-upon-layer of LW scenes in a composite program all rendering in real time!

what I'm wondering is if all the benchmark tests are on a 32 bit system with comparable amounts of ram, or is that the max speed of the G5

Johnny
06-23-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by toby
3000 Ghz? that'll be cool! We'll have layer-upon-layer of LW scenes in a composite program all rendering in real time!

whoopsie!

wasn't paying attention when I pecked that one out!

:-)

J

toby
06-23-2003, 06:50 PM
So we haven't heard from Newtek on this -

Hey guys! 64 bit LightWave in the works? How long will it take? I'm sure you'll want to have it for pc too eventually, will us mac folk have to wait 'til then?

drclare
06-23-2003, 10:57 PM
I bet that the benchmarks were done on a 32 bit os since panther isn't out yet, but i don't know. And a 3000 Ghz chip would be amazing. Then the pc guys wouldn't be able to brag about the clocking speed of their chips.

toby
06-24-2003, 02:43 AM
well apple does have 64 bit systems they could use, I'm sure the SPEC company deals with other 64 bit processors too, so they have to run something in 64bit.

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 02:57 AM
Well, the SPEC marks by Apple are flaky at best (while the results are right, nobody would use that kind of configuration on the intel boxes to benchmark them).
The FW800 vs. USB 2.0 and sATA vs. pATA benchmarks are a joke.
I was quite excited about the G5s, and the price seems to be right as well, but the way Apple tries to sell the processor stinks.
Let's wait for real world benchmarks...

As to the SPECs (this has been posted many times by now):
The intel SPECs are on Linux using the open source GCC compiler, and they only benched P4s (no Opterons, first available 64bit desktop processor -> BOXX).
On windows, using the intel compiler, the P4 / Xeon beats the G5 on all of these SPECs, the Opteron as well (in the floating point area by a longshot).

Most of the other "industry" firsts are hogwash(?) as well. The Opteron has a similar design, but a higher memory bandwidth per processor! It is also the first 64bit PC, sold by BOXX since a couple of weeks (I don't count the server solution s with AGP here).

The only firsts the G5 it really has is the standard FW800 as well as the PCI-X and the decent price compared to a XEON.

Damn, I really like those boxes too, and I was really hoping that Apple made it this time but...

my 2 cents...
Mike - who's still not ready to switch.

toby
06-24-2003, 03:38 AM
"the way Apple tries to sell the processor stinks"
Well what do you expect from Marketing, an industry which is continuously brought to new lows by, guess who, M$. If you judged a product by it's marketing, you should be boycotting any stores selling Windows.

"still not ready to switch"
what, you're not a "switcher"? :p
No, it's not enough of a speed increase to switch just for the sake of speed - did you think it would be?

"The intel SPECs are on Linux using the open source GCC compiler"
Isn't Apple subject to this same handicap? Isn't that the point of the benchmarks?

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 04:34 AM
Hi toby,

Originally posted by toby
"still not ready to switch"
- what, you're not a "switcher"? :p
- No, it's not enough of a speed increase to switch just for the sake of speed - did you think it would be?

Well, yes, it was touted as such, and it isn't.


"The intel SPECs are on Linux using the open source GCC compiler"
Isn't Apple subject to this same handicap? Isn't that the point of the benchmarks?

That depends on how you look at it, Apple, Motorola and IBM engineers optimize gcc for max PowerPC speed (they have to, since it is the official Apple compiler), intel engineers don't because they have their own compiler.
As for the handicap, this is like comparing Lightwave on linux intel to Lightwave on Mac OSX, afaik there is no LW linux version (except for the network renderer), so the whole comparison is pointless.
Lightwave intel runs under Windows and has been compiled using the intel compiler for max speed. And I assume most commercial developers use the fastest available tool.
May be we do the G5 vs. P4 comparison only under Linux, or only under windows on both machines, that might be a tad more fair.
The point of the benchmark is to get the optimized speed of a CPU, SPEC involves optimized compilers and is well documented. So, looking at it that way, Apple doesn't use any official SPECs for the intel CPUs.
Cheers,
Mike

Johnny
06-24-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by toby
No, it's not enough of a speed increase to switch just for the sake of speed - did you think it would be?



Yes...I did.

I was hoping that Apple was really listening to its constituency in that we're all over the mHz figures, over the fast 'in theory' schtuff.

what we want and need is a box that just plain IS fast.

the firstest with the mostest. who crosses the finish line first. if you begin with a task, which box will do it quicker.

I am exasperated with this almost Clintonesque logic: ie, "it depends what you mean by 'speed'"

jiminy christmas!!! you don't see the drivers at Indy saying things like: 'well, if you look at how our crew performed, and allow for the fact that the track isn't optimized for our vehicle...etc...then we *should* have won' It's about the driver who crosses the finish line first...THAT's the one who gets the trophy, kisses the babe, etc..

it's about how little time it takes to complete a job...that's how I define speed.

The G5 would appear to be fast, but again, I hear about how fat the pipeline is, the 9 fans (is this a hovercraft) it has all of these cooling zones, there's a new fab plant, etc.

Why can't Apple dispense with the geek speak, and just SHOW two computers in the same class, one a PC, the other a G5, similarly-equipped, doing the same job, and let the chips fall by demonstrating how long each box takes to do the same job?

I don't want a fast box in theory; I want a fast box in r-e-a-l-i-t-y. It's real cash I'd be a-spending, and real work I'll be a-doing.


Johnny

toby
06-24-2003, 06:28 AM
"it's about how little time it takes to complete a job...that's how I define speed"

So you take into account how often pc's crash (more often than any other platform) ? how much down time for "re-installing"? The amount of data you lose when the entire machine grenades? The constant network maintenance?

How quickly will an Indy car get your family to the movies? It'll take you 4 trips and cost you $1000.

It's ridiculous to assume that the fastest processing speed computer is the best, especially when it's only by a few percentage points. It's also naive to think that a brand new 2ghz processor is going to spank a fully developed 3ghz processor. I'm satisfied that it's a least compatible now, which is a feat in itself.

The new Mac is WAY faster than the G4, and with the stability of UNIX it's WAY better than the P4.

Johnny
06-24-2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by toby
So you take into account how often pc's crash (more often than any other platform) ? how much down time for "re-installing"? The amount of data you lose when the entire machine grenades? The constant network maintenance?

It's ridiculous to think that the fastest clock-speed computer is the best, especially when it's only by a few percentage points.

Your point 1: I agree that PC-crashing factors into overall work productivity..you are right. But that's not what we're discussing here. What we are discussing is: how fast is the new G5? Of course, we don't want crashing! Kudos to OSX for being so stable! But we need stability AND speed.

I personally expected something like tall trees being flattened for 1000 square miles after the G5 demonstration.

Your point 2: I myself am NOT a supporter of the mhz number. in fact, I'm saying "enough already with the figures and scientific explanations". I want to see unadulterated demonstrations of which computer gets the job done in less time.

Nothing could be simpler, or freer from notions of scientific factoids. It's a simple race: here's the starting line, over yonder is the finish line...who gets there first?

I don't care what's inside the box, nor do my clients, who say: "Can you have it done by X" and Me who says "this box will get my work done with greatest time efficiency"

Anyone who'd go to a client saying: "Well...I would have had it done sooner if the code had been optimized" is looking at their last job from THAT client.

J

Cron
06-24-2003, 06:58 AM
It's a fast Mac, it's a stable sys and it's a beatiful design but......
I guess it will take atleast 6 month's for all devpeople to bring the app's made for it and till then all the prob's are hopfully fixed.If it's faster then a PC or not still and will alway's (i think atleast) depend on the Job athand.
In a overall i think its a good step in the right direction for Apple and i hope in the near future they will try to keep it this line (compatability and so on).As for pricing i think it's awesome, i thought this thing would cost twice as much ^_^

paintboy
06-24-2003, 07:14 AM
Cron,
put 8gb of PC3200 ram in it ... and it does cost twice the price:eek:

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by toby
So you take into account how often pc's crash (more often than any other platform) ? how much down time for "re-installing"? The amount of data you lose when the entire machine grenades? The constant network maintenance?
Well, next door is an all Mac DVD authoring studio, and I can tell you who has less problems, a more complex network setup, and does less re-installs. Me, on PCs.
Our Server has been running 24/7 for the past 4 months, the same goes for the renderfarm (execpt for one machine that likes to crash a lot), my main working machine gets restarted once a week or so, the machine next to me once a month.
Youre mileage may vary, but I've seen too many Mac problems during the past 6 years. The performance of the G5 would have been very tempting, but since it doesn't seem to be what it is touted to be, I'll stick.
Cheers,
Mike

Cron
06-24-2003, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by paintboy
Cron,
put 8gb of PC3200 ram in it ... and it does cost twice the price:eek:




Absolutly hahahaha:D :D :D :D

FUSION301
06-24-2003, 11:19 AM
put 8 gb of ram in that pc:eek:

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by FUSION301
put 8 gb of ram in that pc:eek:
You mean like the 16BGB the current Opteron boards take? :rolleyes:

FUSION301
06-24-2003, 11:32 AM
yep!!! doesnt that boost the price just a little bit:D

Lightwolf
06-24-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by FUSION301
yep!!! doesnt that boost the price just a little bit:D
Yeah, but like somebody said before, you could run LW from your RAM disk...
heck, you could even run Maya from your RAM Disk... and Doom III as well ;)

DaveW
06-24-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by toby

So you take into account how often pc's crash (more often than any other platform) ? how much down time for "re-installing"? The amount of data you lose when the entire machine grenades? The constant network maintenance?


Actually I think most PC users have stopped using Windows 95:rolleyes:

XP and Win2k are just as stable as OSX, and where I work they're actually more stable than OSX. The downtime for reinstaling and the amount of data lost when the machine "grenades" is the same for both platforms. And I have no idea what this "constant network maintenance" is. Plug in the network cable and everything works.

toby
06-24-2003, 02:44 PM
the way I hear it, xp is built on top of the same core as Win95. Maybe that's why M$ uses apache servers :)

Lightwolf
06-25-2003, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by toby
the way I hear it, xp is built on top of the same core as Win95.
Nope, sorry, WinME was the last built on that core (which in turn is based on Win 3.x).
XP, W2K and W2003 are all based on the original NT, which is the last major new operating system designed from the ground up in the past couple of years (OSX doesn't count here because it is Unix based).
Cheers,
Mike

toby
06-25-2003, 02:20 AM
"XP and Win2k are just as stable as OSX, and where I work they're actually more stable than OSX"

You've been listening to the PC fanatics. People who actually believe that Windows is more stable than nitro-glycerine. Half the Windows users don't even believe that.

Let me guess, where you work, you have a crew who maintains the system, keeps all machines below 75º, no screensavers, downloaded software, or internet connection are allowed (unless the crew diligently maintains a firewall), and the hard drives get wiped clean every 6 months. This is way more work than goes into other systems.

These rules, and freezing classrooms, only exist because of pc's. (man I hated that class)

"Plug in the network cable and everything works" You've got to be kidding or you must have a good crew. You have to configure the hell out of them to get that to work. Macs have 2 switches and you're done: no crew neccessary.

Lightwolf
06-25-2003, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by toby
Let me guess, where you work, you have a crew who maintains the system, keeps all machines below 75º, no screensavers, downloaded software, or internet connection are allowed (unless the crew diligently maintains a firewall), and the hard drives get wiped clean every 6 months. This is way more work than goes into other systems.
The crew is me, 1 server, 4 render farm CPUs, 4 workstations, 1 video editing system... I wipe may be one machine per year.
Oh, internet access on all machines, W2K and NT no 9x or XP), bells'n' whistles installed on some of them.
Looking at the DVD company next door, they wipe their Macs once a month (granted they have Sonic soft and hardware installed on them, and that stuff is as flaky as hell).
Then again, I've been working with computers since I'm 14 and I know my tools...
Cheers,
Mike

FUSION301
06-25-2003, 12:10 PM
We've had some of these Macs here that havent ever been wiped....In 3 years..upgraded and what not, but not wiped...I use both PC's and Macs, and I dont like either one.haha they both have problems they both crash. As far as networking I have to agree pc's are a little more involved then a mac and pulling files from my pc onto my mac is alot easier then vice versa. hrmmmm maybe I should try linux...I would however like to throw a wild cat card in my Mac, but i dont see that happening....so either way there are no winners, in my mind

mlinde
06-25-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Lightwolf
XP, W2K and W2003 are all based on the original NT, which is the last major new operating system designed from the ground up in the past couple of years

hey, I'm just nit-picky, but wasn't NT developed back in, like, 1994 or 1995? That's a bit more than a couple of years, almost a decade!

jacross
06-25-2003, 02:12 PM
You are correct, NT 3.51 was back in the early-mid 90's, and that would make it a decade old.... but wasn't UNIX (what OS X is based off of) originally developed by Bell Labs in the late 70's? Wouldn't that make it like 2-3 decades old? Just like UNIX, the NT Kernel from MS (the basis of NT, W2K, XP and W2003 SVR) has seen updates and improvements over the years. Neither have remained static.

I also run a Windows Domain at work with 30 machines, and 12 Servers... they all have Internet, all the goodies that users like to install, and some pretty heavy hitting software development, 2d & 3D graphics, video editing and financial software. They're all running Win2K or higher, and nearly all of them are 3years old or older. My PDC (Primary Domain Controller) is 5 years old and has never been reloaded (just upgraded from NT to 2000) and it is just now being replaced because I need more storage and power since our company is growing. My bosses don't believe in purchasing new hardware and/or software unless absolutely necessary. And for all of the hardware and software I've purchased over the years never once has the reason been that the platform was flakey. I'm not dissing on Mac's, I like them, I use one at home along side my PC. I find it a delight to use. But the statement that it's more stable in my experience is completely false. Just my $.02

Lightwolf
06-26-2003, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by mlinde
hey, I'm just nit-picky, but wasn't NT developed back in, like, 1994 or 1995? That's a bit more than a couple of years, almost a decade!
:) I was nit picking too, I wasn't sure if it was more than 10 years, so a "couple of years" sounded better to me.
Doesn't change the fact though that it is the last major operating system developed from the ground up.
Cheers,
Mike

Red_Oddity
06-26-2003, 02:53 AM
guys...guys...GUYS, STOP IT ...

OSX is stable (less since the 10.2.6 update, but can be remedied by installing 10.2.4)
Win2K and XP are rock solid...but it does need a solid hardware config aswell (no Wallmart $600 PCs...we're talking $2k/$3K workstations here...)

So stop throwing mudd already, this thread is starting to became such a big heap of hogwash...


Mac users; you've got a great system coming up (not to mention the software), too bad Jobs presented it with so much PR bull...just wait till september already...
And stop using the 'PCs crash so often...blablabla...' that was 8 years ago maybe (heck my pc hasn't crashed in 7 months, nor any of my PCs have been unstable for the last 6 years.I use a slipstreamed Win2K CD with all necessary software on it...a new install takes no less than 2 hours...about the same time it takes to install OS-X)

PC users; we've got nothing to complain, within a couple of months we're gonna get Pentium 5 and Athlon64, right now we have Xeons and Opterons...What's wrong with those machines?...nothing...dual Xeon 3.2 GHz is still damn fast i can tell you...


It's time this shouting match Steve Jobs started ended...too many loose threads going on on the forum right now...

toby
06-26-2003, 03:09 AM
" stop using the 'PCs crash so often...blablabla...' that was 8 years ago maybe (heck my pc hasn't crashed in 7 months, nor any of my PCs have been unstable for the last 6 years.I use a slipstreamed Win2K CD with all necessary software on it...a new install takes no less than 2 hours...about the same time it takes to install OS-X) "

Look who's saying "stop it"
blah - blah blah...

I'm not going to ignore all the disaster stories I've seen and heard based on you guy's stories of workstations under ideal conditions with trained maintenance techs. Why should you have to be a mechanic to drive a car?

Lightwolf
06-26-2003, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by toby
I'm not going to ignore all the disaster stories I've seen and heard based on you guy's stories of workstations under ideal conditions with trained maintenance techs. Why should you have to be a mechanic to drive a car?
Man, I whish I had off-the-shelf workstations, ideal conditions and a maintenance tech. I don'T, but I still don't have any problems.
I do think you should know your tools though. If you scribble, do you give your pencil to a tech to get it sharpened? ;)

toby
06-26-2003, 03:48 AM
as if a computer is as simple as a pencil!

Red_Oddity
06-26-2003, 03:58 AM
well...so much for my vain attempt to get things to quite down...

Out of the window then, since apparently you are not able to let it rest...

We have no tech team here (we do have one Mac tech man, who knows jack about pcs, and i won't blame him for it, besides, we never needed one...)
I have one w8000 from compaq, never crashed once... one custom build 'god knows what's in this one' 733 P3 (build by some obscure pc shop), since the new power supply got build in it never crashed again, before that, don't get me started, just says enough to buy decent hardware, no matter how small and insignificant that part may seem (has had win2k installed twice last 2 years)...one Athlon +1900 XP, my favourite workstation, hasn't crashed once in 9 months (and i have the machine for 9 months now)...one P4 2.6GHz Medion computer with a Radion 9600 (they sell those in supermarkets here in Holland, for about 1100 euros), never ever seen a more stable budget pc in my life, hasn't crashed once (have it for 3 months now)
We have a bunch of Macs, dual 1.42s, dual 800s, first line G4s and G3s and even some old 8600s (still good for scanning images).
My dual 1.42GHz workstation (motion graphics mostly (read AfterFX), i use the pcs for 3D) has had OSX reinstalled twice in the last 4 months and it still runs a bit funky...wheter it's the hardware or the bad updates from Apple, it doesn't matter, bottom line it, it doesn't run as well and stable as it should and can (which i'm sure of)...

So, whatever you say concerning PCs, it doesn't always need to be a $3000 Dell in order to work solid, it can also be a $1600 computer (the Athlon back then, and the most expensive part was the brandnew way overpriced video card, about 1/4th of the price of the PC's total price)
As long as the individual parts work well together not much can go wrong...


Note: offcourse software crashes (somehow LW isn't too stable, and Adobe soft is so bloated it tends to gobble up all recourses making your system crawling slow (MAC and PC))
but the system software (wheter it's OSX, Win2K or WinXP) is solid, it has been for the last 4 years (not counting pre OSX systems here)...

end of story...

Lightwolf
06-26-2003, 04:03 AM
Just to fuel things up again, so that we can get completely OT here... ;)

Originally posted by toby
as if a computer is as simple as a pencil!
You're right, I feel more comfortable with a computer than with a pencil. I couldn't do a layout using glue and letraset to save my life, paper cutters are a nightmare to me...
Pencils smell nicer though ;)
Cheers,
Mike :p - my last post on this, promised...

Johnny
06-26-2003, 06:43 AM
right then...

so back to the 'are the new G5s all that'...

what about the real benchmarks that are or used to be used in pubs like Macworld?

used to be handful of actual tasks, such as a few Photoshop things: apply filter, gaussian blur, rotate a big image, etc.
then opening a large word or excel file
then doing a CD4 render, and maybe a few others.

I'll be nobody is going to buy a new machine and sit there with a Dew and run spec tests all day...

who out there would be completely unbiased to run such a battery of tests.

I am just so completely fed up with interpretations and spins on things..some in that crowd could murder a guy with an axe, and make it look like it was the victim who did it!

I'd just like the straight dope.

J

Lightwolf
06-26-2003, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Johnny
who out there would be completely unbiased to run such a battery of tests.
You would. Prepare a CD with software (including LW which will run in discovery without dongle, add a couple of scenes), other stuff you'd like to bench and off you go to the next store to test...
If they let you that is :)
Everything else is biased. You can't expect a tester to know exactly how many threads to activate for lightwave, or which scenes to render to get and idea of the real performance.
Cheers,
Mike

js33
06-26-2003, 09:49 AM
Well my take is the machines and OS need some time to get optimized so we probably won't really see what these G5s can do until they get up to 3Ghz and beyond and Pather gets all the 64 bit optimizations and bugs out. Also in a year or so there should be a good variety of 64 bit programs.

How far can these 970 chips be pushed before they top out?
4Ghz, 5Ghz, 10 Ghz?

Also what about dual core chips? Then you could have dual dual core, essentially a quad machine. But then you have to have software that can use all that. From the looks of the new case and motherboard there is no way they could fit four G5s in there.

The software always lags the hardware so it will take some time.

Also Apple needs to get on the bandwagon with some real video card options. Why do they build a supposed PRO machine and put $50 video cards in it. Kinda defeats the purpose.

Cheers,
JS

skippy
06-26-2003, 10:35 AM
js;

I hope that things will get better, too, but I keep sticking on two concepts:

1. we've heard from all fronts that the unix-based OSX was REALLY going to unleash the true power of the PPC G4...it ain't happened.

2. we then heard that the Power 4-based PPC was really going to unleash the true power of the unix-based OSX. whether that has happened yet is unclear..lots of debate, etc.

either it's a fast complement of hardware and software or it isn't. and from all of the qualifications I'm reading, explanations and 'yeah, buts' it seems that there's sumpin' goofy being passed over.

maybe it will get faster at 4 Ghz, 8Ghz, 40Ghz or 1,000,000 million-jillionherz, but the PCs of this time seem to be whipping the snot out of the PPC/OSX side of things.

J

js33
06-26-2003, 10:41 AM
Yeah that's why I do all my LW work on a P4 but I would like to see a fast machine from Apple. It has alot of promise but if they never quite get there speed wise the Mac will always lag behind in adoption from the rest of the world. I would like to see a Mac that could really run twice as fast as a dual Xeon but I'm afraid this first batch isn't the one.

Cheers,
JS

Ge4-ce
06-26-2003, 11:52 AM
Guess we'll see what will happen soon.. Just as we will run the LW benchmarks.. Then we really can figure out what machine is faster.. And I'll tell you that The Dual G5 will be fast! How fast? Donnow.. we'll see.. Things that I have to say about the entire discussion right here:

If you know how to operate a PC, you can keep it running.. Most PC-people avoid certain actions because they know it will harm there PC sooner or later! Better: They avoid it without knowing it!! It's a reflex allready.. And where I work, They just bought 10 new PC's, only for Lightwave. Only 3 work! Windows XP, no other software, And they are 2500$ each! So not cheap! They're still figuring out what's wrong! These things crash halfway during a render!! I never had that on Mac! So don't get me started on stability.. I run 40 to 50 programms, Internet, network, High-end video, ... never had problems.. most of my PC-colleagues have problems with capturing video! Don't even start about all the rest.. They think it's normal that a PC crashes (or an app) 2 times a day.. And yes, they all tell me the same crap I've read earlier about stable system etc.. that can be if you are a PRO! And know what you're doing.. Most of them are not. When My work is finished about 2 weeks earlier than theirs,.. I go and try to help them with my Tibook!

They all say that it works great,.. until they have to finish their work and need my help.. then it is a coincedence.. tsssss

Ge4-ce

js33
06-26-2003, 12:29 PM
Well that's what happens when companies hire 18 year olds that think they know everything until they have to actually use the stuff they think they know everything about.

I bought an XP machine installed LW on it and it has never once crashed during a render. :D

What brand are they by the way?

Cheers,
JS

Red_Oddity
06-27-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
.. And yes, they all tell me the same crap I've read earlier about stable system etc.. that can be if you are a PRO! And know what you're doing..

So you're saying you're working in a company run by bloody amateurs then?

As for your Mac never having crashed on a LW scene, your a damn lucky man...
Whenever i render a scene on my 1.42GHz Mac with 1.5Gigs of memory and the second node turned on it just quits with some really hordcore crash (Scene using simple objects but with texture sequences of 6000 x 600 pixels)
The bleedin' 3 year old P3 with 1/3rd the mem of my Mac just seems to have no problems with that scene (other than the occasional virual memory swap:D )
Doesn't really matter, when i turn the second processor on my Mac off it sometimes will render the scene. And i do get my scenes rendered on time (most of the time), still a shame i can't use my second processor by standard.

Still trying to figure out why my Mac is so flaky (spinning beach balls all day (even with a clean OS install) and LW crashes and OpenGL slowdowns...)
Could it be my nVidia Ti4600 ?, as the other 1.42 dual has less of these problems and that one uses an Ati 9000....

Anyway, as for 'Are the new Macs all that?' Probably not, you can't tell me Apple will bring out a piece of ****e when there market share is so low, i just think the stupid PR stunt last monday was Steve getting really desperate by now, can't blame the guy (you don't want to see your lifes work go down the drain, no-one does)

toby
06-27-2003, 03:25 AM
"So you're saying you're working in a company run by bloody amateurs then?"

"Well that's what happens when companies hire 18 year olds"

that's the whole point. you don't have to be a technician to make macs work.

Lightwolf
06-27-2003, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by toby
"So you're saying you're working in a company run by bloody amateurs then?"
"Well that's what happens when companies hire 18 year olds"
that's the whole point. you don't have to be a technician to make macs work.
That is a bit like:
You don't have to be graphically minded to do 3D animation...
or
Use Poser if you're not technically minded ;)
If you're a pro you're supposed to know your tools. Most Mac users that I'm in contact with don't know their tools as well as most Windows users I know, which can lead to loads of confusion even when doing Mac<->Mac business (i.e. communication with Mac based agencies for example).
Cheers,
Mike :D - Devil's Advocate ;)

toby
06-27-2003, 04:09 AM
"Use Poser if you're not technically minded"
No, just use a mac.

"That is a bit like: 'You don't have to be graphically minded to do 3D animation"
But apparently you think we should know how to program, build and administer computers, to do 3D animation.
Animators at Pixar know nothing about character rigging, and they don't need to.

"Most Mac users that I'm in contact with don't know their tools as well as most Windows users I know"
AGAIN that's the point, and it's because the machines work anyway.

This whole thing about pc's only crashing because of the user is either an excuse or just shows how little you understand about stability outside the world of pc's ( or want to believe )

"What brand are they by the way?"
That's always followed with "oh, that explains it"
I've seen it all before with bmw's

Ge4-ce
06-27-2003, 04:34 AM
Man,... I allready regret posting a reply...

I'm really sick of all those Mac-VS-PC crap..

Just let everyone have its own good or bad experience with Mac or PC... I'm a diehard Mac-fan... The only thing I notice is that from all the people I know.. the majority has a PC,.. And most of them have problems now and then.. All the ones that have Mac, Never complain and have less problems..

That's what I see, hear,... I really don't care anymore what the rest thinks.. And as for "most Mac users don't know their stuff as good as PC guys".. Someone who tells crap like that, can't be taken seriously at all!

Lightwolf
06-27-2003, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by toby
Animators at Pixar know nothing about character rigging, and they don't need to.
Yep, they have tech support and software customized just for their needs by techies...
Most small shops don't, and I spend a lot of time doing "tech" support for my customer...
How do I open the Quicktime with my Mac? Don'T ask me how often I hear that...

This whole thing about pc's only crashing because of the user is either an excuse or just shows how little you understand about stability outside the world of pc's ( or want to believe )
Well, it might also be because I know my tools and have been working with them for the last 18 years, switching OSes and machines a couple of times...


"What brand are they by the way?"
That's always followed with "oh, that exlains it"
I've seen it all before with bmw's
I don't really care about brands, I roll my own :)
Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
06-27-2003, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
I'm really sick of all those Mac-VS-PC crap..

Well, I'm too. We agree on that I guess...

I'm a diehard Mac-fan...

And as for "most Mac users don't know their stuff as good as PC guys".. Someone who tells crap like that, can't be taken seriously at all!
Well, I guess I wouldn't expect a diehard fan to take that "crap" seriously either.
I'm not a diehard fan of any machine, I lost my love for computers when the Amiga died, and since then only look for performance, price and useabilty that suits my needs. If the G5 has that I'll switch, if it doesn't I won't.

Ge4-ce
06-27-2003, 04:55 AM
Ok then :-) let's call it :

seas fire?

Lightwolf
06-27-2003, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
Ok then :-) let's call it :
seas fire?
:) Yep, we can always get back and man to the cannons once the G5 is in the shops ;)

BTW, I'm not trying to be picky, but it is spelled "cease" (since, like me, you're not a native speaker either, I think it always helps to get corrected, no offense please.).
Cheers to Belgium,
Mike :p

Ge4-ce
06-27-2003, 05:35 AM
Yes :-) I knew it was spelled incorrectly, but hey,.. what the heck.. I was too lazy to get a dictionary...

Grüßen aus Belgien

Lightwolf
06-27-2003, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
Yes :-) I knew it was spelled incorrectly, but hey,.. what the heck.. I was too lazy to get a dictionary...
:) No probs... I have one in my browser to look up the hard words ;)
I like your tag line, I guess you'd have to go to jupiter to accellerate a Mac then :D
... no, not again, I'll stop.
Cheers,
Mike :P

Ge4-ce
06-27-2003, 10:43 AM
yes, but since Jupiter is a gas-planet, It will not crash!! :D

Lightwolf
06-27-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Ge4-ce
yes, but since Jupiter is a gas-planet, It will not crash!! :D
:p Yeah, but it implodes when under pressure ;)

Ge4-ce
06-27-2003, 11:27 AM
So,.. it gets more compact.. Powerbook G5 is born!

Lightwolf
06-27-2003, 11:33 AM
...but you can only use it on Jupiter because of the cooling ;) (Hey this might be OT, but is more fun than straight bashing, we should open a new thread for this :D ).
Cheers,
Mike - off for the day