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MurphVideo
05-07-2007, 12:56 PM
Been a LW3D and VT customer for many years. Sorry to say that the amateurish way Newtek runs it's business taking full payment orders for VT5 14 months ago (and still no news of a release), Promises of a new GUI for LW9 and instead a problematic unstable release that bears no resemblance of a visually forward step from 8.5, and now discovered upgrades for SpeedEdit HIDDEN from license holders with a "E-mail me and I will tell you the secret place to download" situation. What happened with Newtek? Is it a friendship club or a business?

Time to migrate to Autodesk I think.........

Andyjaggy
05-07-2007, 01:04 PM
Can't say about the VT but I don't ever recall a new GUI being promised for LW.

If you think autodesk will treat you better go for it, but I think you might end up being disapointed.

UnCommonGrafx
05-07-2007, 01:04 PM
2 posts and such vitriolics...

lion111
05-07-2007, 01:06 PM
if you want to go for it
BUT............
we the lightwavers are in a lucky situation
the core rewrite is happening right now....
the whole autodesk comunity (max and maya) are waiting for...

Animapper
05-07-2007, 01:19 PM
The problems with any end user is that we tend to expect so much from a software company. No one has anything remotely approaching the "perfect solution". When one comes to realize this, they tend to look for solutions among the myriad problems and contribute to the whole with support, advice and constructive criticism.

In what environment is the "flawless solution" practical?

Regards,

hrgiger
05-07-2007, 01:23 PM
Well, someone has their bitter hat on today...

There was never any promise of a new GUI for Lightwave, at least not a specific version. Just a general roadmap for the Lightwave 9.x cycle.

Can't really speak about VT, but it's quite common to pay for an upgrade before you receive it. It's up to you to pay for an upgrade knowing full well that there isn't a concrete release date in sight.

And if you don't think that 9.2 is a signifcant improvment over 8.5, well I just have to say, you're blind.

Matt
05-07-2007, 01:28 PM
I've noticed a few users posting really nasty threads of late, what is it with people?

meatycheesyboy
05-07-2007, 01:34 PM
I clicked on this one thinking it was going to be a user created quiz like the one Alias did a few months ago where you had to decide if something was 3d or not.

Guess I was mistaken. Ah well, so is life.

Animapper
05-07-2007, 01:36 PM
I'm not sure - if you think about it, we are doing really incredible stuff with this "f$#%^* up" software. The art of being content is not in what we desire but appreciating what we have. Sure, it sounds heavy handed but it's true.

It's a great time to be doing visual fx's and animation.

Have a martini on me!

Exception
05-07-2007, 02:12 PM
It smells like a cave in here.

Bytehawk
05-07-2007, 02:50 PM
hmmm,.....

never been more happy as a NT customer as this past year. YMMV

RTSchramm
05-07-2007, 02:53 PM
Please everyone take your whining somewhere else. Forums are for constructive dialog to share and gain knowledge with a particular product. If Lightwave sucks so bad, then learn another 3D application that better fulfills your need.

Lightwave isn't perfect, but for $900 dollars its a bargain when compared to programs like 3D studio max and Maya. It has a proven track record, more so than any other 3D application out there. It's been around for a long time. Its the Swiss Army Knife of 3D.There are better 3D apps that specialize at texturing, modeling, rendering, or, animation, but Lightwave can do it all in one package at an unbelievable low price, and learning curve. The Lightwave interface is straight forward and easy to use compared to other high end 3D apps. In the hands of a master, it can equal the works created on any other 3D application.

For example: In Modo 203 you still can't created text from within the Modo interface, you have to import it, or actually draw it. I believe there is no SSS yet.

For example: Try to setup a scene in Maya with the standard three lights and camera, after 15 clicks, you might get the results you ware looking for.

For example: Layering textures in 3D max will make you head spin.

For example: Waiting for Animation Master ($300) to render a single frame of animation with the same settings as Lightwave seems to that 4 to 8 times longer than Lightwave using the same settings.

For example: Try creating a simple animation in TrueSpace 7 ($800). Trying to find the right icon is like playing "Deal or No Deal"

For example: Try to undo everything you got used to with using a Windows or Mac operating system and learn how to use Blender 3D; Its User interface will really screw with you mind.

So if you don't like Lightwave, you can buy Adobe Illustrator for your text, Modo 203 for your modeling, Body Paint 3D for your texturing, Maya for your animation and dynamics, and Renderman for your rendering needs.

And many of those high-end 3D packages and their plugins are node-locked to your network adapter, so if your network adapter goes up, you got to apply for a new licenses. I for one like the USB dongle, it makes things simple.

So my CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is if you don't like Lightwave, move on. You'll find that there is no one perfect 3D apps. ALL 3D apps crash from time to time when you start to push them to do things that were never intended by the programmers.

Rich

2BitSculptor
05-07-2007, 02:56 PM
at least they never promised version 3 of their software, then packed up and moved to Nevada to make casino games with your money in pocket.

(tap, tap, tap) "is this thing on?"

I got no complaints with NT.

Chuck

RedBull
05-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Been a LW3D and VT customer for many years. Sorry to say that the amateurish way Newtek runs it's business taking full payment orders for VT5 14 months ago (and still no news of a release), Promises of a new GUI for LW9 and instead a problematic unstable release that bears no resemblance of a visually forward step from 8.5, and now discovered upgrades for SpeedEdit HIDDEN from license holders with a "E-mail me and I will tell you the secret place to download" situation. What happened with Newtek? Is it a friendship club or a business?

Time to migrate to Autodesk I think.........

I tend to agree with your thoughts, although not on the GUI (would of been nice to see a major panels rewrite) It's a friendship club now, you have to be on the Beta teams, and know the secret handshake to get actual service.
I did do the 9.0 beta, but didn't stick around for the 9.2 beta, but since we've had open betas these forums seem to of died and tend to be only full of die hard beta fans.... And the community feel has disbandoned.

NT have been criticized previously for their preorders and taking money, well in advance of actually delivering anything.... (VT5 or LW8 for example)
They are a private company, and don't have Autodesks deep pockets..

I would suggest XSI and Modo over anything Autodesk though.....

tyrot
05-07-2007, 04:08 PM
dear murphy

but i would suggest you to stick with MAX. You can write a book about those days..Title could be
"i am a MAXHOIST and i get better SUPPORT from Autodesk"

LW 9.2 development was opened for all REAL users. Not for hit and runners. Actually they have hit and as you see they are still here...So even they cant do that Hit-and-Run properly...

NT has generously given one of the fastest renderer in the market with no charge between 9.0 - 9.2 ..And future is brigther than ever. Not me but great users are also happy, more and more work coming from Hollywood...regular users are more than happy because of having amazing enhancements over many areas..And this is just a start..

best

tyrot
05-07-2007, 04:20 PM
NT have been criticized previously for their preorders and taking money, well in advance of actually delivering anything.... (VT5 or LW8 for example)They are a private company, and don't have Autodesks deep pockets..



hey redbull

that is a deliberate false accusation produced by a softdrink filled head...

If one of my clients would say this to me, in public and raise this kind of thoughts against my company, i WOULD SUE him right away.

1- False accusations purposely intended to destroy public image..
2- Indirect suggestion to accuse NT to steal people money because they are private company. And getting money from Users' pocket..

You are crossing the line...legally...watch out. Good that NT has a tolerance level against this type of false accusations. But this one is the ugliest one i ever read here after years...

RedBull
05-07-2007, 04:41 PM
hey redbull

that is a deliberate false accusation produced by a softdrink filled head...

If one of my clients would say this to me, in public and raise this kind of thoughts against my company, i WOULD SUE him right away.

1- False accusations purposely intended to destroy public image..
2- Indirect suggestion to accuse NT to steal people money because they are private company. And getting money from Users' pocket..

You are crossing the line...legally...watch out. Good that NT has a tolerance level against this type of false accusations. But this one is the ugliest one i ever read here after years...

Tyrot you can't seemingly speak or write a sane word in correct English, so let's agree not to speak.... :)

Obviously like the OP, i do remember LW8 and LW9 preordering. (not to mention VT)

Panikos
05-07-2007, 04:43 PM
Sometimes is so funny reading the forums :D

RedBull
05-07-2007, 04:54 PM
Sometimes is so funny reading the forums :D

LOL...

It is indeed, i found this and another thread on these forums to be particualry lame or funny today (depending on your POV) And it reminds me why i've unsubscribed to all LW related newsgroups and don't vist Spinquad or CGtalk anymore either...

Growing up can be hard to do..... Sigh.....

hrgiger
05-07-2007, 05:08 PM
Someone mocking someone's skill level at speaking english(and sanity as well) critcizing the wellness of the Lightwave community. Now that's funny.

Wonderpup
05-07-2007, 05:10 PM
The reality is that a lot of the stuff that persuaded me to upgrade to 9 does not yet exist- BUT I am now very confident that the promised features will be delivered and well implemented when they arrive- based on the progress that has been made so far- so I am happy to wait and enjoy the ride.

IMI
05-07-2007, 05:12 PM
Just to throw in my .02, I'd still use LW if they hadn't even bothered to go past 8.5, or even 7.5.
All those other apps mentioned, I've tried them all through demos or other people I know who have them, and although they all have their good and bad points, I find every one of them to be completely alien.
LW is easy to get into quickly - no little pictures all over your screen, no buried tools, no heiroglyphics, just straightforward.
It takes alot of talent and experience to get something GREAT out of it, but it doesn't take 3 weeks just to learn how to make a box, texture it and plop a light over it with shadows.

tyrot
05-07-2007, 05:35 PM
LOL...

And it reminds me why i've unsubscribed to all LW related newsgroups and don't vist Spinquad or CGtalk anymore either...


But you cant still leave this place can you?

Anyways hopefully one day you can learn my own language and you will read my thoughts more clearly on this legal issue..:) and thanks for bringing me the language issue, i thought only T4D was using it.. so you are adding more defense-fluid into your softdrink head... keep on adding. If you lack of ideas, Panikos will help you...

shrox
05-07-2007, 06:00 PM
I would bet more people at Newtek can use Lightwave compared to the number of folks at Discreet that can use 3D Max.

HanJobSoSlow
05-07-2007, 06:08 PM
9.0 to 9.2 should always have been free. We bought 9 and had to use 8.x for a lot of things.

Newtek did the smart thing by not asking people to pay for 9.2. 9.0 was such a dissapointment only the talk of the free point upgrade and re-write dampened my fire. They knew that apart from a loyal fanbase the bulk of users would cry blue murder becasue of the problems in 9.0.

Not every user sees a OPEN beta as a fabulous use of their time.

My core business is based on using LW. I own almost 30 licenses. I do not hate Newtek so please, no need for cries of Troll or HATER.

Also I`m sure part of the reason the tempers seem so frought round here is the INABILITY to edit posts. If you type a hot blooded reply its set in stone very quickly.

I respectfully suggest MODS change this - I believe we might see less frayed tempers.

HanJobSoSlow
05-07-2007, 06:11 PM
Sometimes is so funny reading the forums :D


Sometimes.

UnCommonGrafx
05-07-2007, 06:49 PM
Ding Ding Ding
"What was the company that made Imagine (Turbo Silver) and had one cantankerous owner??"

I own a license to a never-happened version of Imagine 3.0 so I'm with you on this one.

Beautiful software effed over... along with her users.



at least they never promised version 3 of their software, then packed up and moved to Nevada to make casino games with your money in pocket.

(tap, tap, tap) "is this thing on?"

I got no complaints with NT.

Chuck

Exception
05-07-2007, 07:15 PM
9.0 to 9.2 should always have been free. We bought 9 and had to use 8.x for a lot of things.

It has been so for years. NT has never charged for a point release and I think they have stated on several occasions that they never will.


I respectfully suggest MODS change this - I believe we might see less frayed tempers.

YeahnI'd like that as well. Unfortunately they seem to see it as a good way to control.. erm, something :) I forget.

Bytehawk
05-07-2007, 07:24 PM
Ding Ding Ding
"What was the company that made Imagine (Turbo Silver) and had one cantankerous owner??"

I own a license to a never-happened version of Imagine 3.0 so I'm with you on this one.

Beautiful software effed over... along with her users.

you too huh ?

Imagine was my first 3D app. Then real 3D for a while. Then Lightwave happened upon me. After 15 years.... well here I am.

prospector
05-07-2007, 07:53 PM
Promises of a new GUI for LW9

Where is this????


now discovered upgrades for SpeedEdit HIDDEN from license holders with a "E-mail me and I will tell you the secret place to download" situation.

Hidden? HIDDEN????
I don't even pay attention and I got everyone.


Been a LW3D and VT customer for many years
If you were then you should KNOW they NEVER give a release date.


Time to migrate to Autodesk I think.........

Your whining contained 2 points..GUI and Hiding SpeedEdit...both are lies so yes, it's time for you to move on.

Mike_RB
05-07-2007, 08:43 PM
For example: In Modo 203 you still can't created text from within the Modo interface, you have to import it, or actually draw it. I believe there is no SSS yet.

modo has had SSS since 201. :)

Nicolas Jordan
05-07-2007, 08:49 PM
Hmmm...you guys notice how our Mr MurphVideo only has 2 posts and they are word for word the exact same post and how there has been no further responses. I think I smell a Troll hiding under the bridge. Well at least we have an entertaining thread to read now. :jester:




Time to migrate to Autodesk I think.........

By all means...Autodesk is a very generous company giving free .xx releases and all they ask for in return is your left arm and your soul. :D

2BitSculptor
05-07-2007, 10:02 PM
Ding Ding Ding
"What was the company that made Imagine (Turbo Silver) and had one cantankerous owner??"

I own a license to a never-happened version of Imagine 3.0 so I'm with you on this one.

Beautiful software effed over... along with her users.

Hey Robert, :i_agree:

I didn't want to drop names.... but Mr. H. did, after all, get me into my present gig... sculpting in clay for model kits and toys. I've nearly forgotten all I learned about 3D modeling (beta testing Organica nearly spoiled me)... I'm still sort-of plugging away at it though. Coulda bought a lot of clay for that price.

Chuck

2Bit Studio (http://www.2bitstudio.com)

Panikos
05-08-2007, 12:45 AM
Tyrot, grow up :devil:

mav3rick
05-08-2007, 12:58 AM
murph hey get yourself a barby dool

Phil
05-08-2007, 02:09 AM
you too huh ?

Imagine was my first 3D app. Then real 3D for a while. Then Lightwave happened upon me. After 15 years.... well here I am.

I fondly remember that coverdisk. Imagine 2.0 on a 7 MHz 68000 with 3 MB of RAM, rendering a cow. Took all night, too. I stuck with Imagine (up to version 4 on PC) before LW 4 allowed me to escape DOS and run inside Windows NT.

'Good' memories of many hard disks being killed due to constant paging to disk during renders. And many sleepless nights due to the clamour from those disks ;)

DiedonD
05-08-2007, 02:27 AM
Hmmm...you guys notice how our Mr MurphVideo only has 2 posts and they are word for word the exact same post and how there has been no further responses. I think I smell a Troll hiding under the bridge. Well at least we have an entertaining thread to read now. :jester:



By all means...Autodesk is a very generous company giving free .xx releases and all they ask for in return is your left arm and your soul. :D

I was wondering weather someone else will notice it. I assume its the double identity again, like that Poor Old Wave person. How about the Webmaster unmasks these people so as we can target them more directly. We can shoot at Murph all you want, when he has another name and who knows what status at some other forum.

So how about it NewTek, will you unmask Murph and future 2 names impersonators to come? So we can start our plaaayy!!!! :devil: :devil: :devil:

BazC
05-08-2007, 02:36 AM
Your whining contained 2 points..GUI and Hiding SpeedEdit...both are lies


No, NT did say the UI would be revised during the 9 series though I can't remember where now. They didn't say when though, I imagine it will be one of the last features to be looked at, it's hardly major issue in comparison to some of the other features slated for LW9.? Instancing, revised UV tools, modeler tools, modeler tools in Layout, animation...

Andyjaggy
05-08-2007, 07:13 AM
Yeah a new UI would be nice but I would rather have all the tools fixed and working first.

dsol
05-08-2007, 08:19 AM
I fondly remember that coverdisk. Imagine 2.0 on a 7 MHz 68000 with 3 MB of RAM, rendering a cow. Took all night, too. I stuck with Imagine (up to version 4 on PC) before LW 4 allowed me to escape DOS and run inside Windows NT.

'Good' memories of many hard disks being killed due to constant paging to disk during renders. And many sleepless nights due to the clamour from those disks ;)

The only good thing about the slow demise of the Amiga was all the many pro video and 3D apps (with the exception of LW!) that ended up being bundled on magazine coverdisks. Damn sad, but it meant I could get into 3D when I was still a penniless student. And Amiga Format's series of tutorials on Imagine (which followed them putting Imagine 2 on the cover) were excellent. I modelled and rendered lots of elements for my projects on my bitchin' A1200 + Phase5 68030+68882 + 4Mb Fast RAM. Depressingly, most of it still looks better than the stuff I see on an awful lot of showreels I get sent. Youngsters today, eh? All that computing power, but still no substitute for talent. </OLD MAN>

starbase1
05-08-2007, 09:36 AM
Why would a new interface be good?

I don't want to learn to find everything all over again! "Shuffle the buttons around and call it an upgrade" is a microsoft game.

And anyone who buys a piece of software that does not yet have a release date is at best an optimist...

dsol
05-08-2007, 09:46 AM
Why would a new interface be good?

I don't want to learn to find everything all over again! "Shuffle the buttons around and call it an upgrade" is a microsoft game.

I agree that change for change's sake is a nonsense that MS seem to enjoy hoisting on their users. That said, I think I'm not in the minority when I say that LW's interface could - and should - be improved, both in looks (at a basic aesthetic level) and in functionality (by unifying many similar tools and commands).

NT know this, and an interface revamp is definitely something on the cards. Whether this happens during the 9.x update cycle is anyone's guess. I really hope so though - and that any UI redesign is also accompanied by a similarly comprehensive re-evaluation of the application workflow. I want my encapsulated OO lw scene management and object manipulation!

prospector
05-08-2007, 10:04 AM
I don't really like alot of changes from what LW is and always has been, but if a GUI change is indeed in the works then Newtek could do no better than this;
http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/

That would pass my approval :thumbsup:

dsol
05-08-2007, 10:43 AM
I quite like the LWx designs, but I also think it's a bit too dry and "techy" looking - even more so than the present one. Though reading the page, it does mention making it skin-able.

I prefer the interface design of modo/zbrush(yes really). The "pro interface" designs used by Apple and the new "sliding tab" Adobe App interface (used on AE, Premiere Pro and Encore) are lovely too.

And LW's interface is still pretty good too - very functional. If it was a bit shinier and anti-aliased it'd still look very modern. Anyway - this thread's ended up going all over the place, so I should really shut up I guess :D

hrgiger
05-08-2007, 10:48 AM
I wouldn't mind if they could find a way to make the interface infinitley more customizable but make the default setting to look much like it is now. This way uses could set it up however they want but could start with the familiar Lightwave look.

dsol
05-08-2007, 10:58 AM
it's fairly customisable already - you can add buttons and tabs - and it's fairly easy to do so too. But more flexibility is always welcome!

hrgiger
05-08-2007, 11:16 AM
Adding buttons and tabs is not necessarily what I meant by customizable. It would be nice to be able to place the panels whereever we wanted, resize them, make them dockable/undockable, collapsable, etc....Customizable button designs would be nice too...

Glendalough
05-08-2007, 12:19 PM
I don't really like alot of changes from what LW is and always has been, but if a GUI change is indeed in the works then Newtek could do no better than this;
http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/

That would pass my approval :thumbsup:

This looks like Mudbox.

LW8 was a big improvement on LW7 though the changes were minimal.

mrunion
05-08-2007, 12:29 PM
at least they never promised version 3 of their software, then packed up and moved to Nevada to make casino games with your money in pocket.
Chuck

I heard that! Dang! We outta take a "crowbar" to 'em!!

stib
05-09-2007, 01:06 AM
So who was it that moved to nevada?

UnCommonGrafx
05-09-2007, 07:07 AM
Impulse, Inc., the distributors/makers of Imagine 3D. The president was one Mike "Crowbar" Halverson.

Simon Dalton
05-09-2007, 08:53 AM
[QUOTE=starbase1]Why would a new interface be good?

I don't want to learn to find everything all over again! "Shuffle the buttons around and call it an upgrade" is a microsoft game.

I absolutely agree! :i_agree:
But aren't we able to shuffle the buttons anyway?
Is it a more graphic interface that people are looking for? To do away with words on buttons? Or perhaps to have a more "intuitive" UI layout. Okay then... The problems with that are that one mans (or womans, Loretta!) intuitive workflow is another mans (or womans... Alright don't labour the point, Stan.) utter madness. As well as that there is only a finite ammount of information available on a screen. And the more of it that is taken up by large glyph style buttons, the less is available for actual workspace window.
With the smaller tagged buttons in the NT interface we get more buttons, so more access to more of the software's abilities right there on the screen.
In any system there needs to be a bit of structure. It helps us to create a "visual vocabulary" so we can learn that system. (I know that this button is this shape, it's this colour and it's in this position so it does this action and so forth.)
In my experience, I've been able to change the colour, layout and menus in my interface to wherever I want so I can develop my own visual vocabulary. It's pretty straightforward.
If anyone gets to use a 3D app and finds that the interface "isn't sitting with them" so to speak then I think that it's down to how the individual processes their learning workflow. And if that workflow is stifled by the interface because someone wants it to look good rather than deliver function, then we are in danger of dumbing down this very powerful piece of software.
I must say that when I first saw the lightwave UI (round about the year 1995) it frightened the socks off me. Perhaps, from a learning standpoint, newtek might consider developing some sort of "evolutionary UI" that allows more acess to more information as it becomes relevant to the individual.
Anyhoo. This started off as a simple I Agree.
That's what you get for starting to think...
And this forum is great for getting me to do that, so thanks to all of you.
Even the grumpy ones.

2BitSculptor
05-09-2007, 10:17 AM
I really can't decipher graphical interfaces... It's another language to learn - but not always the same language. Simple buttons with words, that's all I need. The word describing a function looks the same in every piece of software I have, where icons representing the same thing differs from program to program. There's no continuity. Waiting for the description of an icon to pop up is slower than reading it in the first place. Learning the hot keys is never gonna happen.

It's just me, Forgive me, I'm old.

I don't see a problem with adding new functionality to an old interface. I just don't need it to slow me down worse than I am.

Chuck

Andyjaggy
05-09-2007, 10:26 AM
I think you all misunderstand that a new GUI doesn't mean that we are going to get stupid little meaningless icons that you have to decipher. What we need is something that is extremely customizable and flexible. A consolidation of all the random tools into a logical and streamlined interface. Somewhere where we can have instant and easy access to our most commonly used tools, perhaps a docking bar. And while your at it you can make it a little prettier too :)

dsol
05-09-2007, 11:12 AM
A nice flexible, reformat-able GUI would be the goal. Something that uses an XML doc to describe different preset layouts, supporting embedded tabs as well as floating palettes.

Of course, then you run into the legal minefield of patented interface concepts owned by the Adobe/Macromedia behemoth :(

Bog
05-09-2007, 11:53 AM
A nice flexible, reformat-able GUI would be the goal. Something that uses an XML doc to describe different preset layouts, supporting embedded tabs as well as floating palettes.

The plus side of the way LW does it right now is that the interface is Dead Quick. I've seen some hideous, dog-slow XML workspaces (no, I mean HIDEOUS), some done by the alleged front-runners in the field.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with LW's existing gooey. Some minor field-gripes and one or two non-modal panels which I'd prefer to autosize to content, but nothing heartbreaking.

tyrot
05-09-2007, 12:54 PM
The plus side of the way LW does it right now is that the interface is Dead Quick. I've seen some hideous, dog-slow XML workspaces (no, I mean HIDEOUS), some done by the alleged front-runners in the field.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with LW's existing gooey. Some minor field-gripes and one or two non-modal panels which I'd prefer to autosize to content, but nothing heartbreaking.

dear bog

totally agree

best

shrox
05-09-2007, 01:54 PM
Why would a new interface be good?

I don't want to learn to find everything all over again! "Shuffle the buttons around and call it an upgrade" is a microsoft game...

Agreed, I prefer functionality over slickness. The LW interface is fine, it is simple and easy to navigate. That is what I want, not indecipherable icons like Max.

bobakabob
05-09-2007, 03:29 PM
Newtek's interface design might not be flashy but it works well and most tools are where you'd intuitively expect them to be.

Seriously recommend the Production cofig for menu layout if no-one's tried this, it's fantastic - accessible and efficient. The best interface LW has ever had.

Ztreem
05-09-2007, 05:45 PM
I think you guys missunderstand the whole thing, redesign of the GUI doesn't have to mean small icons or nice slick graphics, we are talking workflow and customisation here.

Speedmonk42
05-09-2007, 07:02 PM
I am for no icons, I like the words.

But I really hate floating pallettes.

I want dockable collapsable stuff, and something specifically designed to maximize screen usage and two monitors.

It is about the only reason I hate to use macs. I shudder every time I see a mac user in a cafe using Word with about 60% of their screen scrolling around.... it drives me insane.

hrgiger
05-09-2007, 07:28 PM
Yeah, that does get really annoying. I hate having panels popping out all the time. I get annoyed enough when I get to the bottom of my screen in Windows and my 1/4" taskbar pops up because I have it set to Auto-Hide. I don't know why I do it to myself but I just prefer having it that way.

What I don't want in Lightwave is to have cursor proximity sensitive panels where if you even just roll two close to a button/hotspot, a whole panel pops out with a menu. That would drive me absolutely bat$hit crazy.

stib
05-10-2007, 06:20 PM
LW needs urgent work on it's user interface. But I don't mean changing the look, I mean improving the workflow and consistency.

Things like the way I can't have the render settings, object properties and motion properties all open at the same time, the way you can't maximise the scene editor, the way you can't add to / subtract from the selection in modeller without dropping the tool you're using, the totally ridiculous way keyboard focus stays trapped in numeric entry fields when you click somewhere else with the mouse, numerous controls that work differently in different windows or between modeller and layout..

All of those little time-wasting annoyances that make the LW interface a lot less appealing than it could be. The things that still trip you up even when you've been using it for years. That's what needs to change.

Animapper
05-10-2007, 08:02 PM
I wish I could have two button areas on the right and left side - like early versions of softimage. For that matter, why not just have all the animation inside modeler? Hmmm...

Regards,

faulknermano
05-11-2007, 02:07 AM
GUI isnt just about how things can pop in or out or if there are borders or not, or icons vs text. sure, that's part of it. but it's really how the information is consolidated, NOT SEPARATED. a good example of bad interfacing is the dynamics part of LW. notice how we cant get into the wind settings and the emitter settings at the same time. i did manage a workaround by openiing up the wind panel and then double clicking on the emitter settings. i got a floating wind panel, and the emitter settings on embedded on the object properties panel.

starbase1
05-11-2007, 03:18 AM
I really can't decipher graphical interfaces... It's another language to learn - but not always the same language. Simple buttons with words, that's all I need.

Chuck

:agree:
Absolutely! Down with blobs on knobs!

It's horrendous to learn, and the thing I hate most about Vue.

cresshead
05-11-2007, 03:31 AM
totally disagree on text vs icons

when you start to learn an app then text is really good as you just read them...but after several years...re reading the same darn text buttons is MUCH slower than scanning for an icon....

learning icons is much slower but once learned you can find a shape much faster then re reading a list of text..

best option is to have both available as a skin like that of 3dsmax which can be icon or text...it's upto the user...the user can even make his own icons and save then as custom u.i. layouts...that's the way to go, simple as that.

Ztreem
05-11-2007, 03:42 AM
totally disagree on text vs icons

when you start to learn an app then text is really good as you just read them...but after several years...re reading the same darn text buttons is MUCH slower than scanning for an icon....

learning icons is much slower but once learned you can find a shape much faster then re reading a list of text..

best option is to have both available as a skin like that of 3dsmax which can be icon or text...it's upto the user...the user can even make his own icons and save then as custom u.i. layouts...that's the way to go, simple as that.

I agree, it should be up to the user to decide if he/she wants icon or text. Icons is not all bad, if they are executed in the right way. The best thing about icons is that they take up far les screen space than text do, so you can have more commands showing without taking up all you screen.

The funniest thing about this discussion is that LW allready have icons and I never heard anyone complain about them or not understand them.:D :devil:

Lightwolf
05-11-2007, 03:47 AM
when you start to learn an app then text is really good as you just read them...but after several years...re reading the same darn text buttons is MUCH slower than scanning for an icon....
Erm.... after several years I'd expect you to know the shortcuts ;)

Cheers,
Mike

mattclary
05-11-2007, 06:02 AM
When I see words, I don't make a conscious effort to read them, they just register at the BIOS level. The word "box" is as easily recognizable to me as a pictograph of a box.

The day LightWave uses icons is the day I stop giving NewTek money every year or two for upgrades.

cresshead
05-11-2007, 06:08 AM
okay now don't look......what the shortcut for......well...80% of the text buttons ....they have no assigned shortcut!...opps!

so you work with no need for a u.i at all....just 4 view panes and your trusty keyboard and mouse!

lightwave needs a new logo...how about the word 'lightwave and get rid of the nasty evil icon!.....matt...you'll have to have some radical laser surgery to remove that nasty icon some nutter drew on your arm when you wern't looking!..

i think thsi is a case of ''pot/kettle/black''

mattclary
05-11-2007, 06:11 AM
Funny! :thumbsup:

Symbols are fine, just not for an interface for giving a computer commands. Symbols work great for finding a bathroom or phone in a public place where it is not guaranteed that all persons will speak the same language. Or if you just want to express you eternal love for a series of ones and zeroes. ;)

Language evolved from pictograms for a reason. ;)

Ztreem
05-11-2007, 06:18 AM
It's strange that people can use computers at all now when we don't use DOS anymore, Windows or MacOS is quite heavy icon based and still we manage to use it and even start up Lightwave even if it's an icon we have to click on to start it. This is funny, LOL!

I still think it's better if user can decide if he/she/it wants to use text buttons or icon buttons, or both.

hrgiger
05-11-2007, 07:03 AM
Well, that's what I was saying as far as customizable buttons go. It would be nice to be able to design the look of our own buttons whether we decide to put text or icons there. Me, I would like to put a picture of Kate Beckinsale for bevel, Angelina Jolie for extender (huh huh), and maybe Shirley Manson for bandsaw.

Of course, this would be a nightmare for creating tutorials with (Okay, now run Liv Tyler on this row of polyogns, run Liv again, then finish with a Selma Hyek with a setting of .2). That's why we need a default setting so we can revert back to different setups.

I'm just kidding about the girl Icons. Shirley Manson would definately be Create UV.

mattclary
05-11-2007, 07:04 AM
It's strange that people can use computers at all now when we don't use DOS anymore, Windows or MacOS is quite heavy icon based and still we manage to use it

It's easy, most icons also have text with them, and the ones that don't will dispaly text if you hover over them with your mouse. Such a great "time saving" feature... ;)

mattclary
05-11-2007, 07:10 AM
Well, that's what I was saying as far as customizable buttons go. It would be nice to be able to design the look of our own buttons whether we decide to put text or icons there. Me, I would like to put a picture of Kate Beckinsale for bevel, Angelina Jolie for extender (huh huh), and maybe Shirley Manson for bandsaw.

Of course, this would be a nightmare for creating tutorials with (Okay, now run Liv Tyler on this row of polyogns, run Liv again, then finish with a Selma Hyek with a setting of .2). That's why we need a default setting so we can revert back to different setups.

I'm just kidding about the girl Icons. Shirley Manson would definately be Create UV.

Now those are icons I could live with! Of course, I would want them sized in such a way that I would have pretty much no editing real estate. :(

iconoclasty
05-11-2007, 07:16 AM
okay now don't look......what the shortcut for......

If you use the command remotely often, then you should be able to remember the keystroke. If you don't use it that often, then you're probably not going to remember what the icon looks like anyway and you're going to have to hover over them until the text description pops up.

Sure you're not going to memorize a keystroke for every single command, but it really doesn't take long to find them as text. Then again, try imagining how an icon for bandsaw is going to look different form bandsaw pro.

2BitSculptor
05-11-2007, 10:54 AM
The funniest thing about this discussion is that LW allready have icons and I never heard anyone complain about them or not understand them.:D :devil:

What do those things mean, by the way?

:D

Ztreem
05-11-2007, 11:04 AM
I think the first one is for shooting at things when doing special effects for action movies. The second one looks like a cross maybe it's for christian movie effects. The third one is for twister like efects. The fourth one is for detektive kind of effects like the one we see in CSI and the last on is for comic book effects. That wasn't so hard was it? :D

hrgiger
05-11-2007, 12:15 PM
Uh, no Ztreem, the manifying glass is for burning CG ants, not CSI effects. Amateurs...

Ztreem
05-11-2007, 12:35 PM
Ah, I see, that's why I got an error when I tried it... makes perfect sense, Thanks.

mattclary
05-11-2007, 12:45 PM
Then again, try imagining how an icon for bandsaw is going to look different form bandsaw pro.

No doubt! WTF kind of icon makes sense for "bandsaw"? I know when I see a teapot, I DEFINITELY think, "Oh, that must be the button to make this stupid piece of sh*t program render! Of course!" ;)

Elmar Moelzer
05-11-2007, 03:58 PM
the ones that don't will dispaly text if you hover over them with your mouse. Such a great "time saving" feature...

I am more for the other way round. Have the Text be on the button and when you hover the mouse over them, have a meaningless icon appear.
I am with Matt, no icons for me! Text all the way.
I can read, I can read faster than decifer an icon.
And then it is quicker for me to see a larger textbutton than make out a tiny icon on the screen (you know where you have to move your face close to the screen so you can decifer it).
Sorry, but I dont see how icons can be better than text buttons. No matter how "modern" the UI looks that way. Modern does not always equal better, you know (its like with furniture, I prefer a nice antique over some IKEA cheapo stuff).
Also Textbuttons are way easier to design a UI arround (you just have to write the text into the button and dont have to invent some stupid nonedescriptive icon).
And no, I still dont get how a picture of a teapot can mean rendering and a cube can mean center viewports (and then the buttons are so small that I cant decifer them when leaning back in my chair).
Naaaa, leave them Textbuttons, much more relaxing, or I am off to XSI (which still has mostly Textbuttons at least).
He who does not even like those Icons in the Graph Editor (even after all those years I still have to constantly have to roll my mouse over to check what they mean).
CU
Elmar

jaf
05-11-2007, 10:10 PM
Well, I've recently switched from Truespace 6.6 to LW 9 and can definitely say I prefer the LW interface. For example, I can't see how the different bevel options could be shown as icons. Newtek would have to make an "icon locator". Oh, that's what Truespace does!

Bog
05-12-2007, 06:18 AM
I am more for the other way round. Have the Text be on the button and when you hover the mouse over them, have a meaningless icon appear.

Okay, the cat broke the Mach on the way out the door and there was Concerned Consternation from downstairs at the sudden guffaw then :D

Elmar Moelzer
05-12-2007, 07:35 AM
LOL, guess thats what I get for writing posts in the middle of the night while doing lots of other things at the same time...
hehehe
Hope the meaning was still kinda guessable...
CU
Elmar