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bwtr
05-06-2007, 09:26 PM
I am using theLW9.2 demo.
My first effort is an attempt to make the bowl using the tuotorial bowl(1).swf.

Ok, I think I am correct in that one has to use the tab and a keys to even remotely approach a useful working speed/method.(Surprised that an apparent work method does not seem to be described anywhere?--even the manual?)

OK. I have done the inside and now I want to do the base--"do the base as well".

No matter what I do, I can not find a way to get away from the last inside poly selection.

Can someone please tell me the trick--and any other similar ones that may be perhaps "common knowledge"?

Silkrooster
05-06-2007, 10:42 PM
If I understand the inside poly is still selected and you want to unselect that poly and select the bottom poly.
The keyboard shortcut to unselect is the / key. If you have a tool active the unselect key may not work, you can drop the tool by hitting enter first then the / key.
As for selecting individual polys it can be easier to select your polys in the upper right hand window which is normally the perspective view. The reason is that when selecting in any of the wireframe views you would be selecting both sides of the object rather than one side.
Silk

SplineGod
05-06-2007, 10:43 PM
The tab key is used to toggle subpatch mode on/off. Depending on how you build the bowl is may or may not be useful to use subpatches.

bwtr
05-07-2007, 12:36 AM
Silkrooster
You have probably given a solution however, is there not an unselect tab? (How/where should I have gone to learn that?_

SplineGod
Following the tute to my best ability the tab key was not a solution! Right and wrong way? Again, where do I go to learn that?
Subpatch?---where/what is that?

bwtr
05-07-2007, 01:14 AM
A subpatch is a Control Mesh!----who would have guessed that? (Though still not a connection to the tute that I can see)

and---View>Selection>DROP Selection!
I think everyones trying to make it hard for me, looking in view? and other than trying to find de-select?

I am aging a lot today! Thanks.

IMI
05-07-2007, 07:52 AM
You can do that, yes, but I think the vast majority of people use the / key to drop a selection, and the SPACE key to drop a tool.
I've been doing it that way so long, I couldn't even remember that there's actually a button for drop selection.
That works for points and edges, too, btw.
Another thing you might want to consider is, if you have a poly (or point, or edge) selected, clicking it with the mouse again will de-select it. If you have several polys selected, but want to select more, hold down SHIFT while clicking on the additional polys.

BeeVee
05-07-2007, 08:21 AM
Or clicking in an unused part of the interface, under the buttons in the left-hand menu is the one I see most often (the / shortcut is only really good for people with US keyboards). The important thing to take away though is that you are welcome to assign whatever keyboard shortcuts you like using Alt F9.

B

IMI
05-07-2007, 08:44 AM
Yeah, Alt+F9 is one of the best tools in Modeler. (That and Alt+F10). I have just about everything reassigned to a different key, so I tend to try not to use keyboard shortcuts when offering suggestions, except in this case / is one of the few that I keep at default.
I didn't think about the non-US keyboard thing. I know that non-US keyboards must have a / key though, considering internet URLs and all, but I don't understand - Do the other language versions of LW have different default keyboard shortcut key assignments?

BeeVee
05-07-2007, 09:04 AM
It's all the same keyboard assignments, just that / isn't so easy to get to. On a UK keyboard it's easy enough but instead of being on the left side of the keyboard it's on the right, which means that you automatically go to it with your right hand and let go of the mouse. On a French keyboard it's shift colon, but it would be worse if it were backslash since that it's AltGr 8...

B

IMI
05-07-2007, 09:33 AM
Ah I see. Thanks for the info. :)

bwtr
05-07-2007, 06:02 PM
Having to let go of the mouse to press Alt/Flock/F9 is a "shortcut"??
I am a mouse, not a keyboard person. Trying to memorise keyboard shortcuts and the arthritic usage of same is not on for me.

However these are my great concerns at the moment.
The naming of things/tags seems to often be different to usage or the name is way different to more common usages.

Some tags seem to be located under main tags which do not bear a logical relationship.

Because of the combinations it becomes difficult to get an effective search of the Help/Manuals. (Some names used in this thread not even in the Manuals?)

toby
05-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Having to let go of the mouse to press Alt/Flock/F9 is a "shortcut"??Use the other hand? Or find it under 'Windows/Edit keyboard shortcuts'.


I am a mouse, not a keyboard person. Trying to memorise keyboard shortcuts and the arthritic usage of same is not on for me.That should be fine, go to 'Windows/Edit Menu' to create new tabs and put buttons wherever you want, and this edit window is really helpful for finding tools too.


However these are my great concerns at the moment.
The naming of things/tags seems to often be different to usage or the name is way different to more common usages.
Sounds like you're coming from another 3D app. You'll *always* go through this when switching 3D programs. But if you tell us which program you're coming from, some of us have probably used it and can help you better, since we'd know your perspective.

bwtr
05-08-2007, 05:54 PM
Firstly, I dont want to use keyboard shortcuts at all.
I use many many apps so I am used to adapting to reasonable differences.
I have to look under "View" for a delete instruction keystroke and it's not called delete then either?
The "Window" Tab?---Neither "Edit Keyboard Shortcuts" or "Edit Menu"?
Not particularly pleased but ceratainly very frustrated.

bwtr
05-08-2007, 07:11 PM
Dont worry to reply anymore. Modo is bad enough but LW is far too messy and crashable.

Sorry but I will stick with, even, Hexagon!

Yamba
05-08-2007, 08:23 PM
Hi bwtr,

Mate, I'm only 1680 Kms up the road and on the same telephone area code so drop me a private email/message with a number or an email address and we'll have a crack at working through the difficulties your going through.

Trust me it'll be worth it.:thumbsup:

Yamba

toby
05-08-2007, 11:02 PM
Dont worry to reply anymore. Modo is bad enough but LW is far too messy and crashable.

Sorry but I will stick with, even, Hexagon!
You need a bit more patience if you want to use professional 3D programs. If Modo and LW seem messy to you, it's because they have more tools and commands than you can display at one time. Jeez, try Maya. I've been trying to learn it for a long time now (months, in my spare time, not days.), it's all over the place, the sloppiest interface I've ever seen. If you haven't been using it for a full year straight you'll be lost. LW's workflow is among the best in the industry, which is why it dominates 3D on television, with it's ridiculously short schedules. Some LW students have been hired right out of school by Digital Domain, because it's easy to learn and be productive with.

bwtr
05-09-2007, 06:05 PM
Toby thanks. You make the point for me in your last sentence--I am far too hold for many of these apps which I suggest have grown like topsy, without often a logical order of working relationships and, most obviously, a lack of a universal dictionary of nomenclature.

For those who spend full time on one app these problems may diminish.

It really is way past the time when all these app makers should have got together. If we can have a universal system with aeronautics it shows it can be done.

A day putting the various items in LW in logical locations with more regularly used names is all it would take!

bwtr
05-09-2007, 09:06 PM
Yamba. Thanks for your offer of help. I will contact you if I get into a better mood ever(!)

I still can not get over de-select being under the View tab (at least three more appropriate locations!) and called, of all things, drop!!

delete selection---cancel, expunge,erase!
un-select-----reverse,remove, release!
drop selection--- JEEZE! (I have a multitude of dictionaries after 75 years but with the greatest will I could never make that connection!)

Then I tried the new bend tool--can ANYONE use that? The idea is brilliant but to release it with that poor working is, well, not adding to app confidence.

The other part of LW, other than modelling, may be of value but I can not seem to find, at the moment, any app either better or less crashable than Hexagon for modelling. I find that both surprising and disapointing.

toby
05-09-2007, 10:14 PM
Sorry, I thought it had been explained - to drop a tool, almost all of us just tap the spacebar.

To drop a selection of polygons or points, we click on any open space in the menu... yea, that's one of the wierd things about LW. But at least it's not a keyboard shortcut :D and it's better than digging through the menu.

toby
05-09-2007, 10:17 PM
And yes the Bend tool sucks! Use the Rotate tool, and set the Falloff to Linear, or whatever works for you -

bwtr
05-10-2007, 12:27 AM
Toby--DROP! That is not in my dictionary for what you are implying happens! Please see if you can initiate some English programming at LW? (Or did I just drop a clanger?)

Sorry, but I can not follow the significance of the thumbnailed image?

In the tute from which this all started, clicking away from the particular selection, or hitting the space bar did not work!.Two fairly common ways to de- or un- select (finish/finalise current action?) which I tried initially.

toby
05-10-2007, 12:57 AM
Pardon - by 'drop' a tool I mean to turn it off, and instead of 'drop' a polygon selection I should have said de-select. The image (did you click on it?) just shows a blank space where you could click in order to de-select polygons.

If pressing the spacebar doesn't drop the current tool then something is wrong. Can you show us the tutorial that you're using?

Yamba
05-10-2007, 01:22 AM
Hi bwtr,

Sorry to see your still a little frustrated, well a lot actually, with LW.

Can we try a little something to get things moving for you?

Open modeler, select new object in file (or use shortcut +N ) to give you a blank canvas, Select box in creative elements ( +X ), create box in your using your top and back views to draw it out, hit your spacebar to drop (disengage, get rid of, bugger off) the box creation tool.

I'm on a mac but I think the same applies to all, hit F2 this will centre your box object in the XYZ of modeler.

Select polygons at the bottom of the modeler screen. In the perspective window (top right) use the circular arrows button in the top right to rotate your perspective a bit. Click on any of the box faces you choose, it becomes framed in yellow ( it does in my case, it may be different in yours) meaning it's selected, now hit ( t ) which is move in the modify tab. In any viewport move the polygon around ( top and back would be the best), just to stretch the width of the box.

Once the change has been made hit spacebar to drop the move tool then hit ( / ) backslash to drop the selected polygon. Select another polygon and play around with other modify tools, when you've finished with the tools hit spacebar to drop the tool then / to drop the polygon/s or point/s or edge/s.

Good Luck
Yamba :o

bwtr
05-10-2007, 04:52 AM
Toby/Yamba
I have LW Demo on another machine --my son is seeing if he can come to terms with it.

Toby I presume you are saying that you can not de-select by clicking away from the selection--in, say, the 3D work space? (or within top/left or right!)

bwtr
05-10-2007, 05:00 AM
Toby. See my first post on this thread about the particular tute.

toby
05-11-2007, 12:47 AM
Toby I presume you are saying that you can not de-select by clicking away from the selection--in, say, the 3D work space? (or within top/left or right!)
Exactly. It needs to be a blank Menu space, like under the column of tool buttons. This is to protect against accidental deselecting.

bwtr
05-11-2007, 01:24 AM
I just confirmed, on three other programmes, that they WONT de-select if you click outside the working area?

Accidental de-selecting--is that a problem? IF(very rare) it ever happens to me I just click redo, or re-select.

I really dont know what to think of LW.

bwtr
05-11-2007, 01:36 AM
This is my list, to date, of all which must be clicked inside the workplace to deselect.
PhotoshopCS3Extended--and all of the AdobeCS3 full Suite.
RHINO4
Carrara5Pro
Hexagon2.1
Silo2
MoI
Right here-on Windows IE!

toby
05-11-2007, 02:31 AM
I just confirmed, on three other programmes, that they WONT de-select if you click outside the working area?

Accidental de-selecting--is that a problem? IF(very rare) it ever happens to me I just click redo, or re-select.

I really dont know what to think of LW.
Some selections take a very long time to get just right. I've spent as much as a half an hour on a selection. If you have a high-poly model that you've brought in from another application, and need to assign surfaces to different parts of it, for example.

Yamba
05-11-2007, 08:29 AM
This is my list, to date, of all which must be clicked inside the workplace to deselect.
PhotoshopCS3Extended--and all of the AdobeCS3 full Suite.
RHINO4
Carrara5Pro
Hexagon2.1
Silo2
MoI
Right here-on Windows IE!

Well, quite simply, you don't in Lightwave!
Just hit / (backspace) to deselect. It's not a difficult technique to master so just have a go and let's move on.

Well done Toby.

Best Regards
Yamba

bwtr
05-11-2007, 07:05 PM
Toby, in that last post, your comments seem to suggest that, if you mistakenly de-select your long work effort, that you can not re-select back to before where the error was made??

Please tell me that is not so.

UnCommonGrafx
05-11-2007, 07:32 PM
Pressing ctrl-z will re-select your selection. If there was something you wanted to stay after that, re-do -- pressing z, will put it back while keeping your selection.

Think: Different.

toby
05-11-2007, 07:56 PM
That's correct, you cannot get your selection back by pressing undo. If I have a lot of selecting to do I will create a selection set and add to it as I work.

In Max and Maya if you want to go back a step where you actually changed something, you'll have to undo a hundred times - since every mouse click goes on the undo stack - and you can easily run out of undos or memory.

If this is too hard for you to get used to, by all means don't waste anymore time with it.

toby
05-11-2007, 08:02 PM
Pressing ctrl-z will re-select your selection.
?
Since when?

bwtr
05-11-2007, 08:24 PM
In most apps you would simply click re-select (redo) to return to the state before a de-select.

That two people have confusions of how?

It explains why so many people do have trouble with Lightwave at least.
When you have worked for years with a multitude of apps certain working methods become intuative bnecause they are common practice.

It is not simply a factor of a certain method being easy to learn. When, like most, you are using a multitude of apps in any one session, continuity of working methods is essential.

If an error in de-selecting can really not be simply reinstated I say shame on LW and shame on LW users who have not ensured this has been corrected.

And my problems came just on attempting my very first tute! Is that why LW try to get children to use LW at an early age ? Learn LW methods before learning "universal" methods?

Surrealist.
05-11-2007, 11:25 PM
I agree. Reselection should be a feature of Lightwave.

I don't think there was any confusion other than wording above. Both parties above are aware of what the tip above is referring to:

In Lightwave, if you make a selection and perform and operation then loose that selection intentionally or by mistake and then realize you want it back, BEFORE preforming another operation, simply undo. This will bring back the the last state with that selection. So in effect it will also reselect. If that selection state is a few steps back you can get it but you will lose those other steps in the process.

If you want the same selection but also want to retain THAT LAST OPERATION, then simply hit redo and you will have that operation back on the model AND your selection.

This is not a feature built into Lightwave this is a tip. Something that people learn to use because it was intended to allow you to redo ANOTHER operation on the SAME SELECTION after you undo.

It is just a trick because there is no reselect feature.

Intuitively speaking there should be. I and others have asked for this feature many times.

The feature request section has now moved to the 9.2 discussion area. That is the place to bring up feature requests. Please help and bring it up again. I would like to see reselect added.

But if you are really planing to do things with the same geometry it is good to get used to selection sets and parts. They are a very powerful tool. More so than reselection.

Another selection tip is using weight maps to perform operations. Another very powerful feature. With weight maps you can have a fall off. Until we get soft selection this feature will have to do.

Many of the tools, Bend, Rotate, Move and Stretch as examples, also have fall off settings that you can adjust interactively or numerically. It is here in the numeric panel that you can choose weight map as the fall off. Learn about weight maps in the map section of the manual. Well worth the time because weight maps can also be used in surfacing.

toby
05-11-2007, 11:57 PM
In most apps you would simply click re-select (redo) to return to the state before a de-select.

That two people have confusions of how?

It explains why so many people do have trouble with Lightwave at least.
Which people? Me and half my friends who came from 3DSMax and prefer Lightwave? All the people who've never used a professional app?


When you have worked for years with a multitude of apps certain working methods become intuative bnecause they are common practice.

It is not simply a factor of a certain method being easy to learn. When, like most, you are using a multitude of apps in any one session, continuity of working methods is essential.

If an error in de-selecting can really not be simply reinstated I say shame on LW and shame on LW users who have not ensured this has been corrected.
Yea, shame on them for finding a better way, shame for not pointlessly making a program that's exactly like all the others.


And my problems came just on attempting my very first tute!You would expect to have problems once you know the program already? I see, you expect to be an expert at you first tute. Righto.


Is that why LW try to get children to use LW at an early age ? Learn LW methods before learning "universal" methods?
Oh I see! You're a Troll! Probably just a sociopathic Max user trying to start some sh**, so thanks for wasting my time and effort, go ta he||.

Yamba
05-12-2007, 12:21 AM
I think you're right Toby and I reported as such earlier today.

Yours and the efforts of others to assist have met with negative responses in every case. bwtr's posts on the Silo and Carrara forums certainly indicates that he may be playing dumb here.

The patience and support offered all through this thread has been professional and supportive as always, it is pity when it isn't appreciated and treated with distain.

My offer bwtr to leave your number in my message box still stands, trust me I'll call you right back.:hey:

Yamba

bwtr
05-12-2007, 12:59 AM
Than you Surrealist.

I see where communicating/understanding may be causing difficulties.

The people who come from say 3DS Max to Lightwave might find it easier. Also, if I am not wrong, those who use Max probably spend 99% of working time working in that one app.

For generalists moving in an "upwards"? direction it really is important to be able to work with sort of "regular" work habits.

Say for example one generaly works works with 5 different apps in any day.
Remembering key strokes is virtually impossible and, for most of us , having to change basic "intuiative" work methods in mid stream is also pretty impossible.

We can fly around the world and sail around the world and unirversal principles apply. Why not computer graphic systems?

Anyway, I have not really been the one to have kept this thread going but I thank everyone for the input.

bwtr
05-12-2007, 01:08 AM
Toby, about the children

See your post 16 on this thread. You said it mate.

bwtr
05-12-2007, 03:28 AM
My VERY last post.

Yamba, PLEASE, read through every one of my posts.

If you can read disdain or un-apreciateveness in any of my posts we must live in vastly different worlds. The reason there are wars is that people try to interperet there own meanings into statements which are not even remotely implied.

I thanked you for your offer of help if I remember but I thought, at this early stage, I would be imposing on you too much to take advantage of it.

When I get the full version with the printed manuals, then I will be at a point probably where I may, more clearly, ask for help.

I am astounded at the interpretation of my Silo posts (thats a while ago!) and you obviously have not followed, in full, all my posts on Carrara related sites. A good point to always remember--some people make statements with clear meanings, as written.

I am old enough not to have any need to have hidden "implied" meanings.

Yamba
05-12-2007, 03:50 AM
bwtr my offer is open and I wouldn't have been made without genuine concern for your difficulties.

The opportunity is still there.

Yamba

toby
05-12-2007, 04:18 AM
Than you Surrealist.

I see where communicating/understanding may be causing difficulties.

The people who come from say 3DS Max to Lightwave might find it easier. Also, if I am not wrong, those who use Max probably spend 99% of working time working in that one app.

For generalists moving in an "upwards"? direction it really is important to be able to work with sort of "regular" work habits.

Say for example one generaly works works with 5 different apps in any day.
Remembering key strokes is virtually impossible
I know key strokes for Lightwave Layout, Modeler, Photoshop, After Effects, Nuke and 3DSMax, a few for Maya, and yet more for Quicktime and OSX, so speak for yourself.

and, for most of us , having to change basic "intuiative" work methods in mid stream is also pretty impossible.
So I guess it's impossible for me to work in a node-based compositor like Nuke, and a layered compositor like After Effects at the same time. If the industry had your attitude, we'd never have node-based anything, or anything else that requires an open mind.


We can fly around the world and sail around the world and unirversal principles apply. Why not computer graphic systems?
And how well did planes fly in the first 20 years of aviation? How many standards did they have then?

And I said STUDENTS. Digital Domain does not hire children. I was a Lightwave student at 37 years old. Where did you get "children"?

You can cry all you want about how clear your communication is, or how the sky is green, but that doesn't mean anyone agrees with you. You need to learn to communicate with more than just the 1% of this world that loves to complain.