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View Full Version : AA in 9.2



bobakabob
05-01-2007, 05:37 AM
9.2 feels like a substantial release when you check out the new camera and rendering controls.

Could anyone explain the new numerical AA settings and offer some advice / tips / suggestions for rendering? In the Perspective camera the values seem to go from 1 to google!

Apologies if I've missed something in the PDA docs. There is a description but not many suggested settings. I'm still used to using the classic camera and its clear accessible AA controls (I'm praying Newtek won't lose this in forthcoming versions!)

What would the numerical equivalent to a Classic Cam Medium AA setting be in the Perspective Cam?

jameswillmott
05-01-2007, 05:52 AM
Classic Cam, Medium AA is Perspective Cam, Antialiasing 9, Classic Filter.

But you can get away with less if you use Adaptive Sampling. Try 2 or 3 for Antialiasing, and 0.01 for Adaptive Sampling.

But it's all completely scene dependant anyway.... :)

bobakabob
05-01-2007, 05:58 AM
Thanks James... What's the max numerical AA setting? The AA field seems to accept any value.

Sensei
05-01-2007, 06:04 AM
The best programmers no hardcode limits ;)

Personally when I want Enhanced Medium AA look'n'feel, I am entering 9 passes..

BTW, classical camera really sucks for complex scenes with many polygons.. Try rendering the same scene with classic and then perspective.. The more polygons the faster perspective is..

bobakabob
05-01-2007, 06:11 AM
The best programmers no hardcode limits ;)

Personally when I want Enhanced Medium AA look'n'feel, I am entering 9 passes..

BTW, classical camera really sucks for complex scenes with many polygons.. Try rendering the same scene with classic and then perspective.. The more polygons the faster perspective is..

Sensei,

Cheers for the info :)

Yep the new cams look fantastic but as I've been working with 2 point poly chains I've had to work in Classic mode.

Giacomo99
05-01-2007, 06:57 AM
The new AA setup is really...different. Sometimes it's a little faster, but you can easily triple your render times without really knowing what you did to cause it. I've wasted many hours over the last week trying to get projects to render as fast as they did in 9.0. (I'm really wondering if I should just go back to 9.0 until the next release comes out.)

As usual with Lightwave, there's no meaningful documentation at all--the antialiasing section in the 9.2 PDF provides a bunch of windy theory and exactly zero practical examples-- so it's trial and error until you get a handle on it. Good luck!

jameswillmott
05-01-2007, 07:16 AM
Unfortunately, each scene (and frame usually) requires different combinations of antialiasing and adaptive sampling for optimum performance, it's always going to be a bit of trial and error if you want to get the render times down.

Yes, it's easy to overkill the antialiasing ( try 33 antialiasing to mimic Extreme in the Classic camera and apply some adaptive on top of that :) )

There's no real reason why 9.2 should be slower than 9.0. Try 2 or 3 for Antialiasing and ~0.1 -> 0.01 for Adaptive Sampling ( yes, it depends on your scene, there is no 'best' value) This should be fairly adequate for most scenes and still be faster than 9.0.

Good luck.

Sensei
05-01-2007, 07:46 AM
Yes, very scene dependent..

From my experience, LW v9.0 renders faster while Adaptive Sampling is On.. LW v9.2 reverse.. But such scene loaded to LW v9.2 and rendered right away without changes will be slooow.. After switching Adaptive Sampling Off (and using equivalent AA passes- 5,9,17 or 33) it'll go back to normal rendering speed or faster..

I would suggest experimenting instead of complaining about lack of docs & tutorials!! The most important aspect is "whether render has smooth anti-aliased edges, not sharp", and this is not definable in any doc.. You see it or not on your own eyes.. If you're happy with render and it has enough quality why to ask anyway for perfect AA settings? Tweak settings until it's good for you.

tyrot
05-01-2007, 07:59 AM
dear boba

at least i have spent my 4 weekends for extensive test about this issue. I dont share the same thought that classic Camera is not ok with high-poly scenes.

Ok i have a scene consists of many many polygons, reflective surfaces, water even, many MDD characters, moving tree leaves etc etc.. ( i ll post this work when it's done)

so 1.7 million polygon...in there... I tried various settings with perspective camera but actually classic camera saved the day.

I used Medium enhanced or Medium AA or even enhanced Low AA...
AS was around 0.03-0.05 ...
And most important thing was using Right number for Mipmapping. I was turning off for years but it was not right, If you add good number to your mipmaps you will have no jitterings on textures..So Mipmaps are saving the day in 9.2

Moreover, i used AreaLight with 2 bounces, final gather radiosity, MPS 5-10


And i have recieved very good renders around 2,30 min. In my DualCore AMD 6000

So what i say about this issue, do test yourself...Because so many things has changed and is changing beta to beta and test cameras with similar settings. Classic Camera IMO still has the best AA power...

Best

Ember
05-01-2007, 08:16 AM
Good thing to remember is that with the new adaptive sampling you won't need any more than just ONE pass to get really good AA. For example this render is made with one pass adaptive sampling AA with real lens camera

http://www.students.tut.fi/~collinn/paran_sumuset_pallot.png

The purpose of that scene wasn't really to test the new AA but the new GI and blurred reflections :) The new adaptive sampling AA can be used to refine GI and area light noise away which truly kicks ***. Now one has to realise though that in non GI render with a LOT of stuff to antialias the adaptive sampling will most likely be slower than normal AA. Anyway, so far I haven't found any real reason to use higher than 1 pass AA with adaptive sampling... Render times go through the roof and the quality won't get any better really. The trick is to tweak the AS settings. Oversample should be always less than 1.0 since otherwise it'll make the edges blurry, 0.1 or something like that is pretty OK starting point. Threshold is very scene dependent but the point is that the closer you push the value to 0, the longer it'll refine the AA (and noise!) and the better quality render you'll get.

Oh and that scene isn't really made by me. It's just a render for a fellow 8.5 user who wanted to see the real speed difference between 8.x and 9.2...

jameswillmott
05-01-2007, 08:22 AM
When you have small (sub pixel) details you need to give the adaptive sampler something to work with, otherwise you'll end up with gaps in your details. That's where you'll need to specify more than 1 initial pass.

Exception
05-01-2007, 08:29 AM
It's not finished yet, but it might be helpful to you...
Here's my Lw 9.2 AA guide work-in-progress:
http://www.except.nl/lightwave/aa.htm

MooseDog
05-01-2007, 08:31 AM
once again another top-shelf effort exception. wtg!

nthused
05-01-2007, 08:53 AM
Nice work Exception.

Exception
05-01-2007, 10:06 AM
Just updated it a little with some AS info.

bobakabob
05-01-2007, 11:08 AM
Great practical info here guys. Exception, thanks, this looks fantastic.

warrenwc
05-01-2007, 11:21 AM
Ditto!
I'm really starting to work on optimizing my render times, now that gi is in my reach for more than spheres & boxes:agree:

bobakabob
05-01-2007, 11:25 AM
dear boba

at least i have spent my 4 weekends for extensive test about this issue. I dont share the same thought that classic Camera is not ok with high-poly scenes.

Ok i have a scene consists of many many polygons, reflective surfaces, water even, many MDD characters, moving tree leaves etc etc.. ( i ll post this work when it's done)

so 1.7 million polygon...in there... I tried various settings with perspective camera but actually classic camera saved the day.

I used Medium enhanced or Medium AA or even enhanced Low AA...
AS was around 0.03-0.05 ...
And most important thing was using Right number for Mipmapping. I was turning off for years but it was not right, If you add good number to your mipmaps you will have no jitterings on textures..So Mipmaps are saving the day in 9.2

Moreover, i used AreaLight with 2 bounces, final gather radiosity, MPS 5-10


And i have recieved very good renders around 2,30 min. In my DualCore AMD 6000

So what i say about this issue, do test yourself...Because so many things has changed and is changing beta to beta and test cameras with similar settings. Classic Camera IMO still has the best AA power...

Best

Tyrot,

Many thanks for sharing your findings... interesting to see the classic camera is still a contender :)

EXOSOUL
05-01-2007, 01:19 PM
wow!! great article! Thanks for all the info Exception.

Doctor49152
05-01-2007, 01:31 PM
http://www.students.tut.fi/~collinn/paran_sumuset_pallot.png

Oh and that scene isn't really made by me. It's just a render for a fellow 8.5 user who wanted to see the real speed difference between 8.x and 9.2...

Ember, That render still gets a [+] 'This is good' by me. I think your friend will understand.:thumbsup:

No body here seems to have mentioned the oversampling button. What does that do?

Exception
05-01-2007, 01:46 PM
Ember, That render still gets a [+] 'This is good' by me. I think your friend will understand.:thumbsup:

No body here seems to have mentioned the oversampling button. What does that do?

It's in my guide, isn't it?

irenderlw
05-01-2007, 05:43 PM
Exception-al information!!!! Thanks:thumbsup:

zatara
05-01-2007, 06:06 PM
Thanks Exception!!!!

zardoz
05-02-2007, 02:54 AM
thanks for this Exception, I really, really needed this.

lardbros
05-03-2007, 02:05 PM
Great docs you write Exception!! I cannot stress enough, how much Newtek NEED you to writet the LW docs!! The comedy type line you take with "Hank" and the way you write really needs to be taken up by Newtek... hopefully we'll see you at the helm of the LW docs in the future!?? :thumbsup:

Exception
05-03-2007, 02:16 PM
Well, NT can't afford me, so I do it for free. But they're grateful enough. I get hugs from everyone all the time :)

Also, I tend to miss the mark on some things and then Jay comes out and subtly corrects my blatant mistakes. :)
It usually only takes me a few days to calm Hank down after that. He has Terry & Mark for that, the two new stars of my guide in progress...