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View Full Version : SasLite Doesn't Work With Advanced Camera?



Giacomo99
04-28-2007, 01:09 PM
Hello-

Like it says in the subject line, SasLite doesn't work properly with Advanced Camera--the "fur" appears displaced to where it would be in the image without the spherical distortion.

Any way around this? Please advise.

Sensei
04-28-2007, 02:34 PM
It does not work because ACT is ray-tracing, and SasLite/SasQuatch is post-effect pixel-filter, that's just painting on top of ray-traced image.. Use other hair solution instead.. TrueHair works better with ACT than with classical camera (because CPU cache memory during rendering single anti-aliased pixel is not flushed).. FiberFactory IV I am not sure, because it's pixel-filter too and couple months ago it did not work too.. TrueHair is visible to reflection, refraction, radiosity and occlussion passes too..

stevecullum
04-28-2007, 03:00 PM
Use other hair solution instead.. TrueHair works better with ACT than with classical camera (because CPU cache memory during rendering single anti-aliased pixel is not flushed).. FiberFactory IV I am not sure, because it's pixel-filter too and couple months ago it did not work too.. TrueHair is visible to reflection, refraction, radiosity and occlussion passes too..

When is TrueHair available - I couldnt see any links on your webpage?

jasonwestmas
04-28-2007, 03:56 PM
Hmm, you can pre-order true hair for $250. There's a styler program for hair,
$125. Should be interesting to checkout when it arrives.

kfinla
04-28-2007, 04:20 PM
Ya i remember trying to look for info on Truehair and the link i found to a movie.. or just about any movie on the Trueart site seems to not work.

Sensei
04-28-2007, 04:58 PM
Ya i remember trying to look for info on Truehair and the link i found to a movie.. or just about any movie on the Trueart site seems to not work.

??? Which exactly does not work? If they stop loading try refreshing web browser.. Or use "Save File As.." instead of trying to watch them on-line with browser.. It always works for me..

TrueHair Styler videos, cutting, bending hair guides and previewing them interactively in real-time in regular LW viewports so they're fully integrated:

Cutting single hair guide by interactive tool:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_1.mov

Cutting multiple hair guides by interactive tool also in perspective view port:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_2.mov

Basic previewing of hairs, making skin polygon (adjusting special TrueHair Hair Length vmap):
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_3.mov

Much more complex example of using TrueHair Styler:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_4.mov

Sensei
04-28-2007, 05:02 PM
Using TrueHair Styler to make hair guides for SasLite/SasQuatch/FiberFactory:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_7.mov

Sensei
04-28-2007, 05:10 PM
Controlling hair length by envelope, procedural textures and nodes (UV images also works but not shown on this movie):
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_8.mov

Sensei
04-28-2007, 05:13 PM
Other movies are on:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/

jasonwestmas
04-28-2007, 09:58 PM
Wow! Much better hair tools than what I have currently, this is totally ACE Sensei.
Will these tools be available within the next 6 months, or is it too early to tell?

Sensei
04-28-2007, 10:16 PM
Those who pre-ordered receives it immediately.. Styler is ready to use together with SasLite/SasQuatch/FiberFactory.. But I encourage to pre-order full version, because 99% of time in current development is done in Layout- volumetric part.. Since the beginning of making volumetric we speed up it 6500 times (going from scanning hair segments one by one to KD-Tree)..

jasonwestmas
04-28-2007, 10:17 PM
Sweet! I'm sold.

serge
04-29-2007, 06:20 AM
Sensei, will there be a demo version of TrueHair?

kfinla
04-29-2007, 11:24 AM
Looks promising Sensei.. as for the movies.. they did work.. just some of them are about 40 megs and take a few ( 4?) minutes (with no progress bar indication anything is happening) so u must be patient. I guess i wasnt patient enough on #4 which was the link i was referring to before.

I'd love to see some more info on these; styler and the full voxel shader?
Seems like the only reference to true hair on your site is the ability to preorder off the purchase list..

Do u need LW9+ ? a list of requirements and limitations/bugs would be nice.. i would want an OSX, UB version ultimately.. wondering if it works with all light types, luminous polys? GI? .. right now im waiting to see some renders on par with what sasquatch full can do.. is rendering able to be multi-threaded if its using volumetrics? also different qualities of hair.. clumping.. friz, matting, tangle.. finally how transitions between bald and hairy areas are handled., image maps?. .. feathers ? :)

Philbert
04-29-2007, 01:46 PM
I've been using Sasquatch with the perspective camera over the past few days and didn't have any probs. Although the hair isn't casting shadows, but I don't remember if sas does that or not, it's been a long time since I used it.

Sensei
04-29-2007, 02:37 PM
I've been using Sasquatch with the perspective camera over the past few days and didn't have any probs.

That's because perspective camera has exactly the same parameters as old classic camera and their rays evaluations are interchangable, difference is only in way they generate image.. Perspective camera is casting rays to scene (which stops as soon as polygon is hit and surface color is evaluated in that position), classic camera is sorting polygons from nearest to farest to camera and drawing them in that order.. Then the same with transparent polygons..

kfinla
04-29-2007, 03:35 PM
Sasquatch needs spotlights to calculate shadows with.. or enable radiosity.. you also need to add the shader "shadow of sasquatch" to all the surfaces u want the hair to cast shadows onto.

Sensei
04-29-2007, 03:41 PM
I'd love to see some more info on these; styler and the full voxel shader?
Seems like the only reference to true hair on your site is the ability to preorder off the purchase list..

TrueHair was announced on NewTek forums:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57877&highlight=truehair

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14788&highlight=truehair

On SpinQuad there are first experimental test renders.. This is equivalent to rendering 15,5 mln traditional polygons, 384 seconds for AA9 pass, with area light:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Volumetric_11b.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Volumetric_12.png

Above renders but animated with morph mixer used on spline hair guides:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_Volumetric_12.mov



Do u need LW9+ ?

In LW v9.0 volumetrics started casting self shadows, so it's highly recommended.. A couple weeks ago, I just for test tried it on LW v8.5 and worked, but without self shadows, that's not the same..


wondering if it works with all light types,

Yes. Area light is recommended/required to get better quality hairs.



luminous polys? GI? ..

With radiosity Monte-Carlo.


right now im waiting to see some renders on par with what sasquatch full can do.. is rendering able to be multi-threaded if its using volumetrics? also different qualities of hair.. clumping.. friz, matting, tangle.. finally how transitions between bald and hairy areas are handled., image maps?. .. feathers ? :)

Every parameter is controlled by envelope, procedural texture and node..

Network rendering with ScreamerNet is of course supported even in alpha version. Some beta-testers tried it with Butterfly and works okay too.

kfinla
04-29-2007, 04:18 PM
Thanks for the additional info Sensei. Self shadows make a huge difference to the depth and realism of the hair so sounds like LW9 it is. Anyways im watching this very closely. As a consumer its nice to see this competition with FF4, truehair, and hopefully Sasquatch.. only good things to come for the end user.

Is the price of True hair going to increase after it is released? Any idea how far out that is? the $250 true hair plugin includes the styler?

Sensei
04-29-2007, 04:55 PM
Is the price of True hair going to increase after it is released? Any idea how far out that is?

I am not sure yet.. FF4 increased price to $300 after v1.0.. So TrueHair is for now the cheapest solution..


the $250 true hair plugin includes the styler?

Definitely yes! :)

Ztreem
04-29-2007, 04:58 PM
Nice to finally see some renders from true hair, looks good. Can you animate the hairs with procedural textures and dynamics?

Philbert
04-29-2007, 05:15 PM
Sasquatch needs spotlights to calculate shadows with.. or enable radiosity.. you also need to add the shader "shadow of sasquatch" to all the surfaces u want the hair to cast shadows onto.

That's right, thanks, I thought I remembered that it could be done.

Sensei
04-29-2007, 08:08 PM
Other TrueHair example made by beta tester:

TrueHair real-time previewer not yet turned on. There's just 92 hair guides to worry about as you can see in Statistics window. This is what you export to Layout to render by TrueHair volumetric part.
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Styler_Angle_1.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Styler_Angle_1.png

TrueHair real-time previewer has been turned on. OpenGL tricks are enabled to color hairs (which gives better quality preview as they're not merged into one color mass). You can continue moving character points, polygons, hairs and immediately see result, because previewer in regular LW viewports is working parallel to LW and any 3rd party or built-in interactive tool. All TrueHair tools are done this way. They don't intercommunicate behind LW with previewer by any way.
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Styler_Angle_2.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Styler_Angle_2.png

TrueHair Freeze Hair interactive tool has been used to generate SasLite/SasQuatch 2 point poly chain with root, each with user definable name. One button click to have TrueHair preview, second button click to have frozen 2 point chain ready to render in 3rd party hair plug-ins. TrueHair volumetric DOES NOT need freezing prior rendering!!!
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Styler_Angle_3.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Styler_Angle_3.png

Philbert
04-29-2007, 08:56 PM
Interestingly I got my shadows working but discovered in the process that they don't work with Simple Skin.

kfinla
04-29-2007, 09:07 PM
Interestingly I got my shadows working but discovered in the process that they don't work with Simple Skin.

Really.. thats sucks.. i was planning to use the two together as soon as my LW9 upgrade shows up.. your getting SAS shadows on the other node types and surfaces?

Eric Walters
04-29-2007, 09:50 PM
Me too!
True hair sound interesting- specially since it will be available for Mac OSX!!

Eric



Really.. thats sucks.. i was planning to use the two together as soon as my LW9 upgrade shows up.. your getting SAS shadows on the other node types and surfaces?

Philbert
04-29-2007, 10:37 PM
Really.. thats sucks.. i was planning to use the two together as soon as my LW9 upgrade shows up.. your getting SAS shadows on the other node types and surfaces?

It seems to work with procedurals and Kappa, but it doesn't work with materials. I guess they only way would be a shadow pass, a hair pass, and a skin pass comped.

jasonwestmas
04-29-2007, 10:53 PM
you get sas shadow on kappa? Last time I checked when you plug in a node into the diffuse shader channel, that overrides any shader you have in the shader tab for that surface. Therefore All the SSS nodes are not compatable with Sas Shadow. You could try using geometry to cast the hair shadow using raytraced shadows. Shadow maps really stink on complex forms like faces in my experience reguardless of the shadow map size.

Philbert
04-30-2007, 01:13 AM
I got Sas shadow with kappa because I plugged it into the color channel. I'm still getting used to nodes. Kappa said color for the output, so that's where I put it.

Ztreem
04-30-2007, 02:04 AM
I got Sas shadow with kappa because I plugged it into the color channel. I'm still getting used to nodes. Kappa said color for the output, so that's where I put it.

Actually it supposed to be in the diffuse shading and it's a red dot an look just like a color connection.

kfinla
04-30-2007, 05:04 AM
Last time I checked when you plug in a node into the diffuse shader channel, that overrides any shader you have in the shader tab for that surface. Therefore All the SSS nodes are not compatable with Sas Shadow.

All the more reason I really hope we see a major update to Sasquatch. I've been waiting for 2.0 since 03' i think. Looks like there needs to be a "shadow of sasquatch node" created.

jameswillmott
04-30-2007, 05:15 AM
Actually it supposed to be in the diffuse shading and it's a red dot an look just like a color connection.

It IS just a colour connection, there is nothing special about the output of the shader nodes. :)

Ztreem
04-30-2007, 05:19 AM
Yes, but the general idea of the shaders is of course to be used in the shader inputs, but that doesn't limit them to be used in other ways. :)

jasonwestmas
04-30-2007, 08:05 AM
All the more reason I really hope we see a major update to Sasquatch. I've been waiting for 2.0 since 03' i think. Looks like there needs to be a "shadow of sasquatch node" created.

Oh I've been dreaming of that update as well! For now, it's raytraced poly shadows when using simple skin. Adding a transparency weight map to the poly hair creates some nice shadows as well.

Giacomo99
05-01-2007, 09:55 AM
I've been doing some experimentation and I've discovered that, as as far as I can tell, SasLite will ONLY antialias renderings created with the Classic Camera. (And yes, I am aware that SasLite settings need to be set in the Pixel Filter menu.)

Is there any way around this (other than hoping the developers at Worley see this post and fix the problem?) Please advise.

jasonwestmas
05-01-2007, 11:30 AM
AA looks the same to me in the perspective camera for saslite verses the classic camera. For hair with a lot of frizz or is really thin you must increase the AA in the image processing panel.

Giacomo99
05-01-2007, 01:48 PM
Regarding increasing the AA in Image Processing--are you using the full Sasquatch or just SasLite? The highest allowable AA in SasLite is 2 (which I suppose is a good reason to buy the full version.) I'm not sure whether this 2 is on the old (9.0) scale or on the new 9.2 one.

However, if you look at the alpha channels, the difference between Classic and Perspective Camera renders should be obvious--in every render I've done, the Perspective alpha has no AA at all--it's totally jaggy.

jasonwestmas
05-01-2007, 04:49 PM
Yes, I was using Saslite. If there is a difference it's not obvious to me at all on my scene and computer :) Are you sure you are talking about the aliasing and not the "shape" of the hairs? If you don't have enough verts in your hair guides you will get jagged hairs. But you may be using just fur? As you may have guessed I'm using hair guides.

Yes, the number of settings in the original sasquatch make saslite look really silly actually.