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View Full Version : 9.2 + graph editor = crash.



eblu
04-26-2007, 10:11 AM
what gives guys? why am I STILL experiencing this bug, 10 years later?
:twak:

Darth Mole
04-26-2007, 10:23 AM
What do you do - just open it?

eblu
04-26-2007, 10:53 AM
open it, select a key. and its a big pain in the ***** especially when you have to manually Fix the pile of crap LW makes when you turn your keys into bezier splines. I'm really angry now.

Chilton
04-26-2007, 11:02 AM
I don't recall seeing this one in our bug database. Does it happen every time?

-Chilton

Darth Mole
04-26-2007, 11:54 AM
Sorry - no problems here. Beziers don't quite work as I expect them too (the handles don't always stay directly opposite one another until I Alt-break them), but it works fine in terms of adjusting keyframes.

LW9.2 GM4, OS X 10.4.9, Quad G5.

[EDIT: Ah, you need adjacent keyframes to be Beziers too, otherwise they're forced to break when you make extreme adjustments!]

eblu
04-26-2007, 01:18 PM
chilton,
it has happened frequently since the graph editor was introduced, in Every release of Lightwave. I have generated NUMEROUS bug reports for this over the years. if you don't have them, then somebody is deleting bug reports on you between releases.

it doesn't happen every time I try to click and drag in the Graph editor, but it happens at the frequency of about 1 time per every minute spent with the graph editor open.

paul summers
04-26-2007, 03:03 PM
YEP same here (9.2)

it has happened frequently since the graph editor was introduced:thumbsdow

toby
04-26-2007, 04:04 PM
Wow, I'm amazed that it persisted on so many builds, OS's, and machines for you guys. I remember a few troubles when Mac's OpenGL was changing, but I've been trouble-free other than that. Is this the non-UB you're talking about?

Chilton
04-26-2007, 08:07 PM
Hi Eblu,

Join the Open Beta if you're not already in there, and file a bug report. Every bug filed in the Open Beta is guaranteed to at least be looked at. In this case, if you're still having problems with 9.2, file a bug report ASAP, and include a crash report. If this had come up in the 9.2 Open Beta, I'm very confident it would have been addressed prior to the final release.

The *only* things we didn't address on the Mac side were related to crashes in Rosetta, because there's no way to debug those (and because those specific bugs don't exist in the UB anyway).

-Chilton

eblu
04-27-2007, 09:49 AM
Chilton,
tried. your fogBugs is broken. I hit the link chuck gave out, and it takes me to a generic fogbugs login page. it looks like Chuck knows about that, but heh... no bug reports just this minute.

having already broached the subject though I think I should explain it a bit.
Lightwave has a multitude of bugs and design flaws, that users have simply been forced to accept. we develop work-arounds, and habits that keep us from experiencing these bugs. we don't use features because they are untrustworthy, and we avoid thinking in terms of anything that might cause a crash. Lightwave has a great many LESS features than are written on the box, because of this.

We tell you guys as soon as we find them, and then we don't hear anything, ever. (this is how things work traditionally) we are Forced to trust that the bug will get fixed. In the meantime, we develop habits that help us avoid the bugs. in time, we do these things by default, and the bugs never get fixed or tested. And they get migrated to new versions of the app, completely undermining the usefulness of features. They predate your time with newtek, and its become apparent that Newtek doesn't have a comprehensive list of bug reports that go back beyond the last release. These bugs don't go away, we simply get beat up by them and give up trying to get help, when they live through 6 releases of Lightwave.

unfortunately, part of fixing Lightwave, is also tackling these pink elephant bugs, and trying to turn the tide with the community. They won't tell you about many of these bugs because they are tired of being the one eyed man in the valley of blind people.

Chuck
04-27-2007, 12:07 PM
Chilton,
tried. your fogBugs is broken. I hit the link chuck gave out, and it takes me to a generic fogbugs login page. it looks like Chuck knows about that, but heh... no bug reports just this minute.


Just to be sure, I just tested the link supplied in Open Beta, and it is going to the correct public page and FogBugz is working fine. Yes, I am aware that the page looks like a generic login page as I do mention in the Open Beta instructions for using the link that while there are Login options on the page, you can ignore those. You do not need to log in to report bugs via the page, just select the "New Case" option on the "Tasks" menu list and enter your report in the New Case web form.

In any event, any time the page does happen to be down, you can always use the bug report email address supplied in same Open Beta sticky post, which sends reports directly into the FogBugz database. With the two methods available, it is always the case that there is a way to get a bug reported, right away.

You also do not need to log in to check the status of any bugs you have reported, using the "status of a case" link from the Tasks menu list; you do need the Case Ticket number that you receive automatically, whichever means you use to submit the bug. From this point forward, whatever bugs you submit, you can also check the status.

gatz
04-27-2007, 12:30 PM
It sounds like we're expected to crusade for our own fixes. Reporting them doesn't seem to be enough. None of my reported "favs" were addressed. I didn't even file a report for audio issues (bad synch, scrubbing errors) since we've heard that audio issues are going to be targeted in a future release.

Eblu nails it. Users become acclimated to the shortcomings taking for granted that Newtek is aware of a bugs the community regards as common knowledge. Is this not the right tact to take?

Chuck
04-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Having already broached the subject though I think I should explain it a bit.
Lightwave has a multitude of bugs and design flaws, that users have simply been forced to accept. we develop work-arounds, and habits that keep us from experiencing these bugs. we don't use features because they are untrustworthy, and we avoid thinking in terms of anything that might cause a crash. Lightwave has a great many LESS features than are written on the box, because of this.

We tell you guys as soon as we find them, and then we don't hear anything, ever. (this is how things work traditionally) we are Forced to trust that the bug will get fixed. In the meantime, we develop habits that help us avoid the bugs. in time, we do these things by default, and the bugs never get fixed or tested. And they get migrated to new versions of the app, completely undermining the usefulness of features. They predate your time with newtek, and its become apparent that Newtek doesn't have a comprehensive list of bug reports that go back beyond the last release. These bugs don't go away, we simply get beat up by them and give up trying to get help, when they live through 6 releases of Lightwave.

unfortunately, part of fixing Lightwave, is also tackling these pink elephant bugs, and trying to turn the tide with the community. They won't tell you about many of these bugs because they are tired of being the one eyed man in the valley of blind people.

I originally worked in technical support and over my years there I worked directly with customers reporting bugs and was able to give them information up to and including that the bug they had reported via technical support was resolved. I'm sure every technical support representative has had similar experiences, and I'm sure this accounts for altogether at least hundreds of instances where the user reported a bug and absolutely was able to know the status as things progressed and the resolution. Even though I left Support years ago, I still have frequent exchanges with folks reporting bugs and am able to provide the news of resolution for many of those.

Yes, there were instances where the report we forwarded in did not receive a reply. It is also the case that with bugs directly submitted, the former policy was that bugs and feature requests to the email addresses directly handled by the development team did not receive any kind of response, unless the bug wrangler determined that additional info to try to confirm the bug was needed. There was not even automatic acknowledgement of the receipt of the report. With the new team, the policy was changed and acknowledgements of reports became standard, although there was not necessarily correspondence beyond that; and with the new bug database, not only are the reports acknowledged, but the person submitting the report has a means to check status of their reports.

There are also means of informing users of the status of the bugs they have reported or that are of concern to them other than direct correspondence to the person making a report. Formerly, lists of fixed bugs were not supplied with a release, but the new team has made including such a list standard practice for a couple of years now. Moreover, the Open Beta process, of course, revolves around the discussions of the issues and bugs being encountered, both old and new, and those resulting lists of fixes and changes for each build.

We certainly have had a comprehensive bug database that spans the generations of the product. Now that I'm more intimately familiar with it, I'm not sure that everything submitted by the various means that bugs have been reported over the years has gone into it, but a lot clearly has. However, yes, a great number of legacy issues have gone unresolved for long periods of time and communications needed substantial improvement.

We're coming up to speed now on a new database that by design will improve communication to the user about the reports they make, and that will make it possible for any user to put their report directly into our database. We've also made concerted effort to improve communications in other ways, as described above. The effort to conscientiously address legacy issues is documented in the bug fix lists in the v9.0 and v9.2 Open Beta cycles, and we'll keep at that task as we go forward.

In sum, we've made substantial changes to improve our communications and our emphasis on addressing bugs, both longstanding and new, and will continue to make improvements in those areas. We apologize for those elements of our efforts and infrastructure that have not met our users needs in the past, and we hope that the changes we have made and continue to make will redress those shortcomings completely.

Chuck
04-27-2007, 05:44 PM
To confirm, what are the repeatable steps for the bug? Is it really as simple for you as open the GE, select a key, crash?

I don't find a record matching that in the new database so apparently no one has submitted there yet, but I find something close in our older database:


Description: Graph Editor crashes Layout when right-clicking over the key info box.

Steps:

1. Start Layout
2. Select any item
3. Open the Graph Editor and select any channel for that item.
4. Bounding box select a key (RMB-drag)
5. Select any GE key tool (move, scale, etc.).
6. Make sure the cursor is over a key so that the key info box appears, then click the right mouse button.

That one was not Mac specific and was closed without action by a former engineer of the team. A variety of issues related to the GE have been reported over the years and most of these have been addressed, including quite a few resolved in v9.0 and v9.2. We'll work on duplicating this issue as well and getting it addressed, and a report to FogBugz would be much appreciated.

eblu
04-30-2007, 01:13 PM
...Users become acclimated to the shortcomings taking for granted that Newtek is aware of a bugs the community regards as common knowledge. Is this not the right tact to take?


I think its a thin edge to try to manage to keep Newtek aware, while not irritating them. In the past 10 years I have been very annoying, and received several unprofessional responses, and I have also been not very vocal at all. Neither approach seems to get the job done. I know the current Lightwave team is working hard. I can see it in the releases. I appreciate it, but there is a long list of past sins that live in LW, that don't even get lip service any more. It just blows me away that the LW team isn't aware of them.

Chilton
04-30-2007, 02:02 PM
I can't speak for the conditions at NewTek before I joined the fray, but we have a very straightforward system now, where any and all bugs that users send in get answered.

From this point forward, you shouldn't have any problems getting broken things fixed.

-Chilton

TomT
04-30-2007, 02:43 PM
I think its a thin edge to try to manage to keep Newtek aware, while not irritating them. In the past 10 years I have been very annoying, and received several unprofessional responses, and I have also been not very vocal at all. Neither approach seems to get the job done. I know the current Lightwave team is working hard. I can see it in the releases. I appreciate it, but there is a long list of past sins that live in LW, that don't even get lip service any more. It just blows me away that the LW team isn't aware of them.

Quoted for agreement. It's nice to know that the good Newtek is in right now, but some of us have experienced . . . um . . . alternate experiences when it comes to dealing with LW's shortcomings and attempts to see NT address them.

Since I work with many software companies myself (and have been a software product manager at a couple of others in my spare time) I can say that NT is very sensitive about criticism of their product and often takes bug reports (both public and private) very personally.

Just my own experience speaking. YMMV.

Chilton
04-30-2007, 03:38 PM
From this point forward, you shouldn't have any problems getting broken things fixed.

I should have clarified this. We've gone to great lengths to make sure reported bugs are handled. The new FogBugz system is very reliable, and you can email or use the web form to submit bugs.

-Chilton

zerocrossing
05-07-2007, 04:13 PM
sorry to chime in, but I'm coming back to Lightwave from a long vacation... (since v7) and every time I start working in the graph editor, eventually it crashes Layout. Usually when I'm dragging a curve handel.

Gernsbach02
05-29-2007, 11:58 AM
Every time I attempt to open the graph editor or click an envelope button in version 9.2, Layout stops responding completely (in essence it crashes) and I finally have to shut Layout down manually. In all honesty, this was also occurring in 9.0, but I haven't been working with LightWave that much since installing 9.0. I don't recall having this same problem with 8.5. I'm running LightWave on a laptop with Windows XP, a 1.6 Gig Intel Centrino processor and approximately 1.25 Gig of RAM. This problem is making Layout completely unusable for me, so I hope you have a fix or a suggestion.

Gernsbach02
05-29-2007, 01:45 PM
Sorry, I didn't notice that this thread is concerning Mac issues. My apologies.