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BazC
04-21-2007, 03:07 AM
OK I've cracked, I'm going to install XP on my Mac Pro. I can't bear the thought of all those Windows users enjoying ZB3 while I sit waiting for ZB2 to boot.

So....how much space to allow? Apple says a minimum of 10gigs, I asked on Zbrush central and Martin Krol said a minimum of 20gigs so I figure 30 gigs should be plenty....or is that overkill?

I don't want to waste too much HD space, any thoughts?


I feel so dirty :(

Ember
04-21-2007, 05:13 AM
OK I've cracked, I'm going to install XP on my Mac Pro. I can't bear the thought of all those Windows users enjoying ZB3 while I sit waiting for ZB2 to boot.

So....how much space to allow? Apple says a minimum of 10gigs, I asked on Zbrush central and Martin Krol said a minimum of 20gigs so I figure 30 gigs should be plenty....or is that overkill?

I don't want to waste too much HD space, any thoughts?


I feel so dirty :(

30 gigs might be overkill. I currently have my Windows XP X64 installed and some programs with it and my C-drive takes 14,9 gigs. But then again Windows is my main operating system so it'll consume more space than on occasional use. I keep my work data on a separate drive.

BazC
04-21-2007, 05:53 AM
Thanks for the info!

meshpig
04-21-2007, 06:00 AM
I've just assigned a 17 gb partition for windows xp; Jeez, Windows xp is a regular dog still after not having had anything to do with it since the mid 90's?


I reckon that's too much even because I just want to run 2 apps and have not much to do with Microsoft.

-Also check out VMfusion:

http://register.vmware.com/content/beta/fusion/registration.html

thus you can run windows side by side with OSX.

Sorry haven't yet tested how it goes with 3D acceleration on.

m

meshpig
04-21-2007, 06:10 AM
Bazc

-yeah, those were my first impressions too. I felt almost defiled, ugly and horrified by this vulgar intrusion on my beautiful screen!

M

kfinla
04-21-2007, 07:18 AM
I've thought of doing the same thing Baz, since i figure it will be a small miracle if we see ZB3 for OSX by september. I hated the wait for 2.0 on OSX. I figure they need to do a full re-write to make the UB. I was pretty dissapointed that in all the time that passed between v2 and v3 the mac version was not kept up to date. I figured they'd really avoid what they did when 2.0 came out.. i guess too many changes in development nixed keeping two versions in development. Since they've never been able to make a PPC version of zmapper for 2.. godspeed

I saw your question on ZBC, and am impressed you got an answer already.. I was gonna generally say take what u think you'll need and double it. One thing to think about is your ZB3.ztl files.. Mudbox's .mud files get quite big, in some co-workers cases GB's.I often have many versions of a file as I work also. ZB is much more effecinent when it comes to file size, but we may see a jump there with layers and the crazy polycounts of ZB3. Perhaps you will offload these to another drive when your done. Anyways ill be very interested to hear how this goes...

Phil
04-21-2007, 07:48 AM
If you get a copy of MacDrive, you can keep your data on the Mac partition as well ;) Since FAT32 dies with files more than 4GB in size, you keep some flexibility as well.

You only then need as much as XP needs, plus the installed apps. My BootCamp partition is 15 GB in size, FAT32 formatted, and has 5 GB of free space. In addition, it has GTA:SA installed on it, so realistically, it's probably more like 10 GB of free space on there. LW content, presets, etc. are all kept on the Mac partition and accessed by MacDrive.

It's been working well here for me.

BazC
04-21-2007, 08:59 AM
Thanks for the feedback folks, I've got plenty of spare space on my HD so i'll give it at least 20gigs maybe even the 30 I was considering, I want plenty of space for workfiles. I've been disappointed in Pixologics attitude to Mac users too, I don't expect to see ZB3 for OSX before december! :( I suppose I can't complain too much though since I haven't yet paid for an upgrade! LOL!

Parallels has also been recommended to me but I'm told it doesn't support OpenGL (or DirectX?) so not much good for 3d? Anyone know much about it? Can you still boot up in Windows if you're using Parallels?

Ember
04-21-2007, 09:27 AM
If you get a copy of MacDrive, you can keep your data on the Mac partition as well ;) Since FAT32 dies with files more than 4GB in size, you keep some flexibility as well.

You only then need as much as XP needs, plus the installed apps. My BootCamp partition is 15 GB in size, FAT32 formatted, and has 5 GB of free space. In addition, it has GTA:SA installed on it, so realistically, it's probably more like 10 GB of free space on there. LW content, presets, etc. are all kept on the Mac partition and accessed by MacDrive.

It's been working well here for me.

Sorry for asking but why on earth would anyone use FAT32 anymore? It's old and inferior compared to NTFS. In my opinion the best way to handle data usage over multiple operating systems is a separate file server. That way you can access your data from any computer or operating system (when using samba). With recent NAS -solutions they are a breeze to set up too.

JeffrySG
04-22-2007, 02:16 AM
I feel so dirty :(
lol

Please let us all know how ZB3 runs on your mac after you're up and running!

good luck installing the dark side on your mac! ;)

BazC
04-22-2007, 03:05 AM
lol

Please let us all know how ZB3 runs on your mac after you're up and running!

good luck installing the dark side on your mac! ;)

:D ZB3 isn't due out until the middle of next month so it'll be a while. I also want to be sure about the details of the OS swap from Pixologic. They've said Mac users can swap license to Windows for free so they can start using ZB3 straightaway, they HAVEN"T said anything about changing back to Mac when the OSX version is released though. So I'm being a little cautious at the moment! If all goes well I'll be sure to post how I get on!

Haven1000
04-22-2007, 03:31 AM
Parallels has also been recommended to me but I'm told it doesn't support OpenGL (or DirectX?) so not much good for 3d? Anyone know much about it? Can you still boot up in Windows if you're using Parallels?

Parallels restricts windows to 1 processor, so not much use if you've got more than one processor or core:thumbsdow

Parallels allows you to reconfigure a standard boot camp install into a usable parallels compatible drive.

BazC
04-22-2007, 04:01 AM
Parallels restricts windows to 1 processor, so not much use if you've got more than one processor or core:thumbsdow

That pretty much rules it out then! :(

kfinla
04-22-2007, 05:11 AM
Parallels is an emulator.. an app for OSX that creates a Window environment in OSX.. their working on improving video card access and performance.. its the convience of not having to boot into windows that sells this if your doing more "office" based tasks with windows apps..

For full speed with any windows app you need bootcamp.. which is full blown windows. Bootcamp is just a tool to setup and simplify the installation. BTW i think u need WIN XP PRO SP2 to make use of all those processors.. i think if your not running XP pro it only sees 2 processors.. i think vista is similar..

meshpig
04-22-2007, 05:13 AM
Yeah, Parallels is pretty useless but the VMware I suggested is actually pretty good with the 3D acceleration turned on. I'm running it from the partition not as a virtual HD.

Don't know how it will go with big models and the like but so far so good. Render times are pretty much the real thing and it's handy 'cos you drag and drop PC files to OSX.

M

Haven1000
04-22-2007, 05:37 AM
Parallels is an emulator.. an app for OSX

Sorry for nit-picking but Parallels is not an emulator, it's a virtualisation programme just like VMWare. An emulator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator) converts code on the fly ie. Virtual PC.

Parrallels party piece is coherence (http://www.parallels.com/products/coherence/) which allows you to use windows apps straight from the OS X dock, which is very coooool!

Ultimately virtualisation is not suited to processor intensive tasks, this is where boot camp is the way to go, I use both solutions though for different tasks.

BazC
04-22-2007, 05:42 AM
For full speed with any windows app you need bootcamp.. which is full blown windows. Bootcamp is just a tool to setup and simplify the installation. BTW i think u need WIN XP PRO SP2 to make use of all those processors.. i think if your not running XP pro it only sees 2 processors.. i think vista is similar..

I didn't know that thanks for the info! Luckily I've bought a secondhand copy of XP pro on eBay so assuming I haven't been ripped off (it was only 20 - worth the risk!) I should be up and running within the week.

Meshpig, thanks for the recommendation, I'll certainly consider Fusion.

meshpig
04-22-2007, 06:05 AM
Cool dude, you'll probably need the end of the week too.

-VM Fusion is a little counter-intuitive to get up and running and just use the Boot Camp partition and not a virtual HD booted from the XP disc.

-I'm just looking at how it goes; render times OK. I'm using NVidia GT 7300 too. For anythihg serious it's probably better to boot Windows, very handy though.

M

Phil
04-22-2007, 07:08 AM
Sorry for asking but why on earth would anyone use FAT32 anymore? It's old and inferior compared to NTFS. In my opinion the best way to handle data usage over multiple operating systems is a separate file server. That way you can access your data from any computer or operating system (when using samba). With recent NAS -solutions they are a breeze to set up too.

OK. You have two options - a local drive or a remote share. For a local drive, your options are very limited :

You cannot write to NTFS from OS X. Indeed, Microsoft deliberately obfuscates NTFS to the point where even reading from it has taken years of effort for developers. You can see this by looking at the notes for the NTFS module for linux. It's not deemed safe to write data out yet despite all that effort. There was a workaround using a module called Captive, but that was slow and buggy and no longer exists.

If you want to be able to write data under OS X to the Boot Camp partition, that partition has to be formatted FAT32. If you format with NTFS, you'll only be able to read the data, at least with virgin OS X.

One third party solution for dealing with NTFS partitions is MacFUSE from Google, but this is in its early days, and not something I'm tempted to fudge with too much. It's also much slower than ideal for accessing a local drive because of the way it is implemented. I'd like to see someone else prove that it's not going to nuke my data before I risk it. Parallels has already caused me a lot of frustration - I don't need more.

For fast, reliable, *local* access, FAT32 remains a universally supported read/write solution, with no added expense. It has its faults, but I can live with most of them, most of the time.

For a remote share :

If you're desk-bound with a fast wired network, or don't mind access delays and network glitches screwing up your data access over wireless network, then a network server is fine and insulates you from the choice of filesystems (aside from file size limits for FAT32). Screamernet is the obvious example here.

Ember
04-22-2007, 09:19 AM
You cannot write to NTFS from OS X. Indeed, Microsoft deliberately obfuscates NTFS to the point where even reading from it has taken years of effort for developers. You can see this by looking at the notes for the NTFS module for linux. It's not deemed safe to write data out yet despite all that effort. There was a workaround using a module called Captive, but that was slow and buggy and no longer exists.

If you want to be able to write data under OS X to the Boot Camp partition, that partition has to be formatted FAT32. If you format with NTFS, you'll only be able to read the data, at least with virgin OS X.


Actually you can read and write to NTFS partitions without too much trouble both in OsX and Linux. The NTFS-3G (http://www.ntfs-3g.org/) driver has been at stable status for quite some time now and it's been used pretty commonly now. So far I haven't heard of even one case where this driver had corrupted data on a NTFS-partition. Granted, haven't heard how it performs on OsX but in Linux at least it runs pretty much without problems.

So I'd at least give it a try. FAT32 is really old and thus shouldn't be used if one can use NTFS.

kopperdrake
04-22-2007, 01:33 PM
Hmm - I'm pretty sure all of my PCs are NTFS formatted and my Mac mini writes to their partitions with no problem - is this because they're not hooked directly to my mac?

Ember
04-23-2007, 12:53 AM
Hmm - I'm pretty sure all of my PCs are NTFS formatted and my Mac mini writes to their partitions with no problem - is this because they're not hooked directly to my mac?

Yes. Actually your PC does the writing, your Mac just sends the data to the PC and says "please could you write this data to place X" and the PC does what it is told. It acts like a translator of some kind in the between :P

BazC
04-23-2007, 12:58 AM
Aaaaaargh! The seller has returned my Paypal payment with no explanation and isn't answering my messages so it looks like I won't be getting the OS after all. Unless I can find another cheap copy of XP Pro I won't be installing, I certainly won't pay 200 (or 100 for OEM) for a new copy! :(

There are some cheap re-installation disks on Amazon but I imagine they will only work if you already have Windows installed?

BazC
05-11-2007, 02:41 AM
Sorry dragging up this old thread but I have some more questions. I caved in and bought XP from Amazon (60 instead of the 20 I was going to pay) it should arrive early next week, just in time for ZB3! :D

So my question is what else will I need for a successful installation, I have Bootcamp, I have my Win XPpro with SP2, I presume I'll need to download drivers for my graphics card? Anything else?

Thanks for the help!

avkills
05-11-2007, 08:39 AM
BazC, when you launch the Bootcamp application; it will burn a CD for you that has all the drivers needed to use the Apple hardware under Windows. Also, FAT32 isn't really that big of a problem; Personally, I need to be able to write to my Windows partition from OS X, so I've used FAT32 and have not had any problems. FAT32 limits you to a 32GB partition and file sizes that can not exceed 2GB.

I don't think I would trust a 3rd party kernel extension that deals with file systems.

Parallels is indeed a virtualisation software; my brother currently has 5 different OS running on his Mac Pro using Parallels; he loves it; basically says the Mac Pro is a software devs dream box. ;)

-mark

Haven1000
05-11-2007, 08:49 AM
when you launch the Bootcamp application; it will burn a CD for you that has all the drivers needed to use the Apple hardware under Windows.

Even after I installed the bootcamp drivers I was getting poor display performance until I downloaded and installed the latest ATI drivers. It seems that I am not the only one who's had problems with the bootcamp default display drivers (see here (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=541276&postcount=16)).

BazC
05-11-2007, 09:05 AM
Thanks folks! I've downloaded the latest drivers from Nvidia but I'll wait and see what Bootcamp comes up with first.

Thanks again!

BazC
05-18-2007, 02:57 AM
For anyone who's interested, the XP install went without a hitch and ZB3 runs beautifully apart from a graphics glitch which may be down to drivers (I'm still using the drivers Bootcamp produced) or user error. I keep trying to use Mac shortcuts in Windows and sometimes I get odd results!

I've only used it very briefly but sculpting 1million polys was as smooth as silk and completely effortless. I'm sure it will handle a LOT more. It really is very very nice, can't wait for the Mac version!

Some people are experiencing stability problems which seem to be associated with certain features (like DON'T turn off the welcome screen whatever you do! lol!) Hopefully these will be fixed in updates.

Phil
05-20-2007, 05:34 AM
It's a little troubling that issues are surfacing like this after such a long period of development. Mind you, I'm still largely unable to get the demo version to launch on the MBP. it worked once, but that's been about it. *mutter*

BazC
05-21-2007, 01:08 AM
Yeah, I think this one has been a little rushed out but I'm sure Pixologic will squash most of the bugs. All previous releases have been close to bullet proof!

If you're talking about an Intel MBP that's not that surprising, ZB2 was never designed for Intel Macs, it runs for me under rosetta but not reliably. 10.4.9 is your best bet for running it and if you can get it to start turn off the welcome screen (in ZB2 NOT ZB3) and make sure you save prefs. It should then start reasonably well (about 1 in 6 tries for me) and be quite stable.