PDA

View Full Version : What is the secret to dynamics?



prospector
04-19-2007, 10:42 AM
I have a wig I'm putting dynamics to (everyone says either Sas lite or FiberFactory) is only moved by LWs dynamics.

So,
No matter what I do My hair stretches to floor when gravity is applied, even tho I have stretched turned off in clothFX.

I have painstakenly applied weights to hairguides with the hairhold weights starting at 100% at roots to 0% at tip, and hair move at 100% at tips to 0% at roots to supposedly get a smoother swaying when head is moved ad using those weights in different settings in clothFX panels getting different results......supposedly.
I can see the weights when selecting them in dropdown menus but nothing seems to change....everything moves when I only want a slight sway to hair, which is why I put weights ???

I have tried every possable combination of settings I would logically think should be done, yet nothing works how I would expect it to acording to button names.

I need wigs to keep thier shape (was styled with different combing directions, like part is with hair swooping down over eyes and curving back towards ears), YET be able to move when head is moved and coming back to original style.

I even tried to use metalink with a small amount of guides being deformed (much much faster) then linking wig to them (yes, they were parented to guides)......I see the guides moving just as I would expect after putting clothFX to them, I see hair moving and matching, but when rendered..hair is perfectly....still
Everything looks fine in OGL playback...but nothing in render.

So what are the secrets???

cresshead
04-19-2007, 10:47 AM
when newtek were demoing dynamics they were using bone dynamics for hair as i recall...it was for 'modeled hair' not splines...but maybe a bone dynamic approach could yeld non stretchy hair if your bones were applied to spline guides...

prospector
04-19-2007, 10:50 AM
OH, just in case...I am locking roots part and they stay locked so that part works fine.

prospector
04-19-2007, 10:54 AM
but wouldn't that mean keyframing bones as hair slid over shoulders and such during animation??
This seems counter productive and not what dynamics are ment for?

will look for links tho on that anim system....just in case

Ztreem
04-19-2007, 12:16 PM
I have never made any hair with dynamics, but I've played around with the dynamics alot. I did this quick setup in a minute, maybe this could be a start for you with the settings.

prospector
04-19-2007, 01:32 PM
Ztreem,
copied and pasted your exact settings to my wig.

except for the locked points, it fell right off the screen :cry:

hrgiger
04-19-2007, 01:38 PM
Here's an old one I did with motion designer:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5373

Ztreem
04-19-2007, 01:47 PM
Ztreem,
copied and pasted your exact settings to my wig.

except for the locked points, it fell right off the screen :cry:

But you had some fixed points, right? you must have some fixed points so it will stay with the head. It could also be a scale issue, Your scene maybe is smaller than mine, you have to alter the values a bit.

prospector
04-19-2007, 01:49 PM
yep, fixed points stay, but rest just fell and stretched off screen.

Ztreem
04-19-2007, 01:52 PM
Ok, try lowering the gravity and weight of the hair.

UnCommonGrafx
04-19-2007, 02:29 PM
Are you saving the mdd that is created on the simple geometry? If not, that's where you are getting the stillness.


As for the falling part, if you are animating a shell of the hair, the separate the shell in such a way that it moves the hair as a volume for particular areas. In this way, you can minimize which parts get the bones. The swept back hair around a woman's face comes to mind.

Post a ball with your wig on it for us to demo. Sounds like a worthy task as I'm sure many will want to know what the varied solutions to this might look like.

If your hair is falling to the ground, your gravity, or whatever force, is too strong. If you are metalinking, this ought to be a nicely quick testing ground. Looking forward to what you come up with.

Edit: Oh, and check that your fps for the scene is 'reasonable'; for my sim, 30fps worked, 60fps didn't.

prospector
04-19-2007, 02:44 PM
Here's what I got so far...the closest I've been in 4 days testing now.
As seen in vid, hairs are just not smoothing, and take too long to 'stay' with head.

Just hair here as haven't done collision yet. Just getting hair to 'move' right.

And for your entertainment, here is the hair object.
I tried to put the mdd files but they were too large and wouldn't compress in zip to get uploaded tho it says it will upload a bigger file.

prospector
04-19-2007, 02:50 PM
Wig should maintain shape (the tuffts coming out sides and bottom), yet have movement dynamics and finally after I get this straightened out, have it also effected by a light wind (like seen on someone modeling on TV) all while holding together when collision dynamics are placed on it.

I do have the collision object if someone wants to tackle completely.

And I agree with UnCommonGrafx, many would be interested in results as more amd more get involved in putting hair on objects of anykind.

Oh, and there is Fiberfactory applied so don't know how that will load if you don't have it. Which you should get.... :D

prospector
04-19-2007, 02:57 PM
And another thing I've noticed but haven't even started working on yet..
The vid above works with 30 frames or 60 frames on timeline, but haven't gotten it to do in 30 frames on a 60 frame timeline.
In other words it takes the full timeline to get it done. So when I go to say a 1000 frame timeline I'm thinking it will take all 1000 frames to do when I need it to be 'set' for furthur animation by say frame 10 out of the full 1000.
But that's furthur down the road. Just an observation so far.

prospector
04-19-2007, 03:24 PM
OOPS previous object sent...real one is here with all the weightmaps

Exception
04-19-2007, 05:33 PM
Have you tried setting stretch limit to 0%?
Just a thought.

Celshader
04-19-2007, 05:56 PM
Have you tried setting stretch limit to 0%?
Just a thought.

Setting the Stretch Limit to 0% yields infinite Stretching, just as setting Particle Age to 0 in ParticleFX yields infinite particle life.

When Prospector mentioned in the first post that stretching had been "turned off," my first thought was: "Uh-oh."

prospector
04-19-2007, 06:25 PM
yea, it was 0
saw Ztreems was .001 and remembered about that so put it to .001 also...still stretched past bottom of screen.

prospector
04-19-2007, 06:39 PM
Here's an old one I did with motion designer:


Yep, did that one when I first saw it.

as that hair droops straight down and mine here has 'volume' so to speak, it's where that example starts to break down. I can do yours but can't keep volume, allow tufts to move on mine.

Celshader
04-20-2007, 11:45 AM
yea, it was 0
saw Ztreems was .001 and remembered about that so put it to .001 also...still stretched past bottom of screen.

Prospector, I have a question. In Modeler, when you measure your wig object, how big is it in terms of scale? If it is built to scale, normal Spring settings (500 to 1000) should be enough to overcome the force of gravity tugging downwards on the wig. If it is much bigger than a normal wig, the Spring forces will need to increase to compensate for the increased size.

prospector
04-20-2007, 12:41 PM
all built to scale
girl 5'9"

Celshader
04-20-2007, 12:47 PM
all built to scale
girl 5'9"

Are you using a MetaLink "cape" of four-point polygons, or are you applying ClothFX to the two-point-polyogn hair guides directly?

I vastly prefer working with a MetaLink cage, but if you're working with two-point polygons, you might need higher Spring settings.

prospector
04-20-2007, 12:49 PM
hmmmm

started at 500 on spring this calc, was doing 1 to .00001 as I want no spring really, wasn't looking for bounce, but then now that I think on it (cuz you mentioned it) I would suppose that is what the small tufts SHOULD do.

hmmmm

eek..calc times are way way slower...so it must be working :D

prospector
04-20-2007, 12:51 PM
clothFX
tried the metalink earlier (like days ago) and seen the lopoly moving as expected but hair never rendered with movement. tho it showed movement when just scrubbing timeline so gave that up.

Celshader
04-20-2007, 01:20 PM
hmmmm

started at 500 on spring this calc, was doing 1 to .00001 as I want no spring really, wasn't looking for bounce, but then now that I think on it (cuz you mentioned it) I would suppose that is what the small tufts SHOULD do.

hmmmm

eek..calc times are way way slower...so it must be working :D

Spring applies a force that maintains distance between points connected by polygon edges. Without enough Spring, the points will not be able to resist the force of Gravity and maintain their initial distances from each other.

If you want to dampen bouncing, increase the Viscosity. A setting of 10 or 20 can be good for hair.

Celshader
04-20-2007, 01:21 PM
clothFX
tried the metalink earlier (like days ago) and seen the lopoly moving as expected but hair never rendered with movement. tho it showed movement when just scrubbing timeline so gave that up.

That sounds weird. Is the hair parented to the low-poly object? With MetaLink, the child inherits the MDD deformations of the parent object. MetaLink will not work if the object has no MDD-deformed parent object.

prospector
04-20-2007, 03:02 PM
yep is parented and can see it move in OGL screen....no movement in render

prospector
04-20-2007, 03:04 PM
2 hrs now and still calc frame 11.....
may have to go and try metalink again, this is too slow for calc over 600 frames at a time.
ARRggg

Celshader
04-20-2007, 03:24 PM
yep is parented and can see it move in OGL screen....no movement in render

Did you bake out the MDD file of the parent object before hitting F9/F10 for the render?

prospector
04-20-2007, 04:33 PM
nooooo, don't think so.......
been days and 50 to 100 rechecks ago

well 4 hours now and on frame 11/121 step 2568992(35/100)
seems kinda high so gonna stop this and try metalink
clothFX is getting too slow.

Not locked, I see numbners changing (step number)

prospector
04-20-2007, 04:36 PM
abort: step 2649335

Celshader
04-20-2007, 05:30 PM
nooooo, don't think so.......
been days and 50 to 100 rechecks ago

I don't think unbaked ClothFX calculations survive an F9/F10 event. Try baking out the parent's MDD calculation and then hit F9/F10.

cresshead
04-21-2007, 06:24 AM
by the time you've spent getting it to calc correctly for you ...you could have hand keyed an animation of the hair via bones or morphs....sometimes if somethings 'not working' you need to move on and get the job done another way.

prospector
04-21-2007, 09:56 AM
yea hu :)

prospector
04-21-2007, 10:48 AM
ARRGGGGgg

would be easier if she had a crewcut. :bangwall:

cresshead
04-21-2007, 11:03 AM
or a hat...or put her hair up in a 'bun'...or used some real strong hairspray....or had a punk spike hairdo held with soap!

Celshader
04-21-2007, 11:45 AM
ARRGGGGgg

would be easier if she had a crewcut. :bangwall:

If it helps, I have a few wig examples on my dynamics page...
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/md/

I've done ankle-length wigs with MetaLink, too. Check out the second shot on my demo reel:
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/demo.html

prospector
04-21-2007, 01:59 PM
I think my problem lies in doing too much.

The main body of hair acts like the curly hair example, just a big movement but not going thru head.
The second part is having the little wisps of hair being able to swing furthur in a more natural curved look and go back to whisps faster than main body, and react to wind.

And I'm thinking same settings won't work for all, and look right.
It's like I need a few more boxes to set different numbers to for different weights, and I only have 2 to choose from in the interface.

Well back to drawing board and look at it from a layering point of view.

Celshader
04-21-2007, 03:03 PM
The second part is having the little wisps of hair being able to swing furthur in a more natural curved look and go back to whisps faster than main body, and react to wind.

Use Cloth FX for the main action and morphs for the fine-detail action like wind reactions.

MetaLink Morph, when used in combination with MetaLink, will allow you to layer Morph Mixer and Textured Displacement on top of the MetaLink effect. I used this technique on MystiKats. Hand-key the morphs or use expressions to drive them -- whatever you prefer.

LightFreeze
04-21-2007, 03:59 PM
Hi, changed some settings on your posted scene to get you quicker calculation speeds and if your interested heres a script (http://www.triton.eclipse.co.uk/Partto2PntPolys.htm) I wrote a wee while ago for making polychains from pfx files

Intuition
04-21-2007, 04:48 PM
Did you speak the words "Klattu verata nicto" before pressing the calculate button?

prospector
04-21-2007, 05:48 PM
Forgot about that...

Tho I did go to the local livestock yard and picked up a few lambs that will voulenteer to go to the god calculatii.

Celshader
04-21-2007, 06:22 PM
Here's what I got so far...the closest I've been in 4 days testing now.
As seen in vid, hairs are just not smoothing, and take too long to 'stay' with head.

Just hair here as haven't done collision yet. Just getting hair to 'move' right.

And for your entertainment, here is the hair object.
I tried to put the mdd files but they were too large and wouldn't compress in zip to get uploaded tho it says it will upload a bigger file.

I just noticed that you uploaded a scene file and a test render. I'll take a look at the scene file soon, but after looking at that test render I gotta wonder...why ClothFX? It looks like you're after only a slight drift in the hair, and the hair looks like it's been heavily styled and stiffened with hairspray...maybe SoftFX would be a better choice for this wig. SoftFX calculates extremely fast when compared to ClothFX, so you could apply it to the wig directly.

Intuition
04-21-2007, 08:44 PM
Forgot about that...

Tho I did go to the local livestock yard and picked up a few lambs that will voulenteer to go to the god calculatii.

Heh, sorry man, just kidding around ;)

I am doing dynamics right now. Fallen telephone cables swaying in the wind.

I noticed the dynamics sim doesn't use multithreading so 7 of 8 cores are sitting idle. :devil:

I hope that when NT get teh dynamics overhauled they can do multithreaded dynamics.

I bought XSI just to have the hard dynamics engine since I was tired of messing around with dynamics for simple calculations.

Its possible with Lightwave to do so much dynamic calcs but it is not easy to set up. You have to do alot of test work.

For your hair I would try one single strand of polygon hair to test and make sure its even doing the behavior you need. Once that is established then try it on a larger scale.

I was messing around with lots of cables and then I just made a scene with one cable swaying around and since the calcs were faster I was able to do many sims until I was happy with the result, Then I just reproduced those settings on multiple cables and let it run for a few hours.

Seems like your hair sim is simple enough to do. Like the old swaying flag tutorial with collisions turned on. Yet, this is easier imagined then achieved I'm sure. :compbeati

Celshader
04-21-2007, 08:50 PM
I noticed the dynamics sim doesn't use multithreading so 7 of 8 cores are sitting idle. :devil:

The old Motion Designer engine can take advantage of multiple cores, if you're in a hurry...increase its "Thread max" from 1 to 8.
http://www.spaudio.com/LW_stuff/Reference/etc/tuninge.htm

prospector
04-21-2007, 08:59 PM
Perhaps this will better show why I need good hair dynamics..I hope.

prospector
04-21-2007, 09:07 PM
I was looking at the softFX panel, scary, but will look at that when the render from another test is done.

So cellshader...it seems like you got everything LW down pat.. :D

Exception
04-21-2007, 10:01 PM
Setting the Stretch Limit to 0% yields infinite Stretching, just as setting Particle Age to 0 in ParticleFX yields infinite particle life.


Ha, uh, yes, 100% then, sorry, made a poopoo there :)

prospector
04-22-2007, 07:36 AM
ARRGGG
Why is it doing this????
Same scene, didn't even close and reload.
Just went from Saslite to Fiberfactory renderer
Exact same FX...didn't change a thing...
1 works, 1 dosen't
you decide

prospector
04-22-2007, 07:48 AM
It should NOT be this hard :cursin:
If it IS this hard to get realistic hair, then something needs to be redone in the FX part of LW.
Been on this for 6 days now at least 20 hours a day and up all night last night.

Something is just not clicking here and it's probably me, but I've about had it.
This is no longer fun. :cry:

Ztreem
04-22-2007, 07:57 AM
I think you should consider if you need to use dynamics. A nice little setup with bones and some delayed following should do the trick. I wish I had some time to help you more.

prospector
04-22-2007, 07:59 AM
Lightfreeze
loaded scene and looked nice but from side the hair seemed to fall a bit down and to the rear which covered her ears and looked strange.
Had to use the hairhold weights and bump spring to 1500.
Looked much nicer on the fit and dynamics.

But as seen above in zip compare, I get nothing on render tho everything in OGL works fine.

prospector
04-22-2007, 08:02 AM
Ztreem, have considered that for sure, but the bones won't react to wind,gravity,or sliding over shoulders when she bends as far as I can see.
Or am I not seeing the forest from the hole I'm in?

prospector
04-22-2007, 08:33 AM
here's what screen looks like to me.
The hair flips ok, holds ok, and generally looks fine and can live with this, but it WON"T render like this. Except in Saslite (don't have full ver to test but I imagine it would as Saslite does.
Now what's wrong with FF?

Ztreem
04-22-2007, 09:06 AM
Ztreem, have considered that for sure, but the bones won't react to wind,gravity,or sliding over shoulders when she bends as far as I can see.
Or am I not seeing the forest from the hole I'm in?

It could if you use bone dynamics. :)

prospector
04-22-2007, 09:11 AM
not seeing anything in online help files for that. could you point me in a direction?

prospector
04-22-2007, 09:41 AM
Ahh, in the IKBoost menu.
Who woulda thunk it.

Ztreem
04-22-2007, 09:45 AM
Yep, it's a IKBooster thing.

prospector
04-22-2007, 03:28 PM
cellshader...baking makes no difference.

prospector
04-25-2007, 03:39 PM
just an update

WOO HOO !!!

good news...desk is getting softer and flexing more so it don't hurt so much when I bang my head :D

haven't given up tho. :o

Dodgy
04-26-2007, 04:49 AM
Okay, what is it you're trying to achieve exactly?

prospector
04-26-2007, 08:37 AM
Using FF
Making realisticly moving hair is the problem.

I get dynamics to move hair with Saslite, not with FF.
as seen 13 posts up in anim.
On new test now and been calculating (800 poly standin for metalink try), for 8 hrs and only done 22 frames of calc.

So, looking for hair like on shampoo commercials......realistic.

Ztreem
04-26-2007, 08:44 AM
Maybe you should keyframe the whole thing it must be faster. :)

prospector
04-26-2007, 10:51 AM
Ya think ??? :D :D

prospector
04-26-2007, 05:04 PM
25 hours later > calculated now to frame 45 :beerchug:

Dodgy
04-27-2007, 03:23 AM
Here's a first pass at it.

prospector
04-27-2007, 09:10 AM
checking now.
wants animation folder which I would guess is default for render output?
trying that as start

Dodgy
04-27-2007, 09:33 AM
Yeah animation folder is for anims :) Render folder for renders...

prospector
04-27-2007, 11:15 AM
:thumbsdow no joy :cry:

Still getting dynamics as I did above and I have no problem with that except same as you.
Little flips of hair not holding up to dynamics.
Also no render of dynamics in FF.

renders dynamics in SasLite, not FF.

When FF thread first came out, I and others asked about this and everyone said LW handles everything other than making hair.

I still haven't found the connection between programs LW-FF to get dynamics to render. Saslite just works as is.

The render below is same scene (not shutdown and reloaded), only FF turned off and Saslite turned on.
Nothing else done to scene to change anything.

drfoley
04-28-2007, 10:32 AM
Hey Prospector,

I've been finagled about this whole lack of a hair module with Lightwave myself and have come to a grim conclusion.

Hate to say it but I think you need another package. Although I've used LW for the last 5 years I can't get decent looking hair with any LW plugin. Havent even tried hair dynamics.

Since the ClothFX suck (too much vibration and jiggling) and the lack of hair in LW I'm forcing myself to export my models and animation to 3DStudio Max by way of the FBX format. Models and animation import very well.

3DS Max has a pretty decent hair module now and cloth simulation.

Do I want to spend the next 12 months teaching myself a new package? NO!
Am I excited about spending $3500? NO!
Am I disappointed there's no decent hair and Cloth modules in LW? Absolutely!

I would spend money on decent hair and cloth modules for LW if they existed.
But the bottom line folks is that Life is short and I can no longer afford to wait and hold out hope that Newtek will maybe someday get around to making these for LW.

End of Rant.

Ztreem
04-28-2007, 10:38 AM
For cloth you have syflex, that should be good enough.

drfoley
04-28-2007, 10:46 AM
Thanks for the reply.

Yes and Syflex has been heavy on my mind. But my thinking is that if I spend $2200 for Syflex and another $500 for Sasquatch then I'm not that far away from affording 3DS Max 9.

I hesitate about 3DS Max however because of the big learning curve. This is a real dilemma for me because I dont want to buy 3DS Max.

I could buy Syflex but then I'm still stuck without good hair.

cresshead
04-28-2007, 10:54 AM
syflex...yeah but the price...you could buy 3dsmax instead and have hair and cloth!

re lightwave..all depends on what style/quality of hair your after...
there's polyhair, celshded hair, clipmap hair via poly strips, saslite, sasquatch, fible factory, true hair, displacement hair/fur rendered.
textured short hair...

also no hair...change your character!...give 'em a hat or helmet!

after those you'll have to look elsewhere like 3dsmax, xsi advanced or the hair modules for maya and cinema 4d

btw max is a shallow learning curve...esp if you get 3dbuzz max fundamentals at $99 f rm 3dbuzz...108 hours of video training!
..not that i'm saying ditch lightwave at all!...i use both!

drfoley
04-28-2007, 12:04 PM
you use both?

How do you like Max's hair and cloth?

You think it would be worth it to buy Max for HDRI photorealistic renders of hair and cloth?

Thanks.

prospector
04-28-2007, 12:13 PM
FF makes excellent looking hair, if you saw the above vid then that setting is right out the box, haven't even started tweaking colors or aa yet.
So I'm convinced that FF will be great for hair.

I am also convinced that LW dynamics will do hair great ....IF.....Newtek can add a few more inputs for cloth FX.
Mainly weight spaces for both Hold and sway spots.
As of now I can only choose 1 weight for each and 1 weight input is just not working as it won't allow the flips in my hair to react differently that main body of hair which need much greater 'holding' settings.

If I set numbers for flips of hair, main body just flops all over head, if I set for main body, flips look like they have a can of spray starch on them.

So I am hoping for something like more input spots and maby they can call it HairFX instead of ClothFX.

I think with just those new settings, LW will have the perfect dynamics options for true hair movement.

And FF will give us the most realistic hair on the market now.

prospector
04-29-2007, 12:03 AM
this would fix it up for realistic hair movement.
I'm thinking a new FX panel for Hair.
It gives the user the option to use multi hair weights, thereby fine tuning dynamics for natural hair movement.
And the rest of the hairFX panels would be same as clothFX

Ztreem
04-29-2007, 03:38 AM
You know you can in someway do that already with just one weightmap or am I missing something? A weightmap can have alot of different values so it's just to paint the values on the hair guides as you want them and apply them to the different inputs in clothfx.

prospector
04-29-2007, 09:27 AM
yep weights CAN have different values...BUT.... you can't set different values to ACT differently.
In the above well drawn and perfectly exampled hair strand, :D , going by way it is now in LW, gravity pulls equally on any weight that is set, collisions are same for any weightmap, and viscosity is the same.


Now on a real head you have the thick hair which covers the full head, you have the fine hair which comes out around a temple area and behind the ears along the napp of the neck, and you have (in some hair doos' like mine above that was designed like a shag cut) where small 'flips of hairs' show up.

All would react differently under the same conditions of gravity, head turns and wind.

As it is now, you only have 1 control weightmap.

So all hairs would have the same weight (tho different values),but they ACT the same, hence thick hair acts like flips and fine hairs, or if settinf for flips and fine hairs, the full head of hair acts like fine hair, not the way it SHOULD be.


The same weight values you want for say viscosity would not be the same values you want for hair 'holding' (keeping it's original shape), or the same values for wind blowing the fine 'temple' hairs.

So even tho you have variable weightmap values, as of LW now, the values only can be set for 1 which equall all. All or nothing so to speak.
But if there were more inputs and those values could be made to react differently.........

Well...... then you WOULD have true hair movement.

Ztreem
04-29-2007, 10:42 AM
I'm not sure what you're doing but you can not be doing it right. First of all you can have weightmaps for weight and viscosity and you see the difference. I don't know if you understand how weight maps works in clothFX. See the weight map as an alpha channel between the base value in the FX dropdown menu and the value in the ordinary value input. 0% weightmap uses the basevalue in the FX dropdown and a 100% weightmap uses the ordinary input box value, and values in between is blended like a gradient, so if you have a value of 20 in the FX base and 1 in the ordinary input a 50% weightmap would give a value of 9.5. I hope this info will help. Use weightmaps with values between 0-100% and avoid using 0 as values in ClothFX for most of the inputfields, not all. (like hold structure and substructure can be 0 with out getting weird results).
I'm not sure if you understand anything from this. :D

prospector
04-29-2007, 11:45 AM
Yea, I'm doing it right.
Lemme see if this helps....it's hard to describe but.......

prospector
04-29-2007, 11:52 AM
And in 2 weeks of trying to get something like real hair dynamics, I have tried every setting from 0 to 20000.

I get either the overall hair OK but no wispyness in flips or the fine hairs

OR

I get the wispyness good but loose the overall hair actions.
I've come up with trys that have better hair actions than seen on the movie 'Final Fantasy' but even then it's not real looking.

There are just not enough inputs for different settings.

Ztreem
04-29-2007, 12:39 PM
What I don't understand is why you have to use the same clothFX dynamics for both the fine hair and the normal hair, why don't you do the fine hair as a separate object with it's own dynamics? Then you are not limited to just one setting. Fine hair is always fine hair and should behave the same all the time so set that up as one object. The normal hair should always behave as normal hair so this should be another object with different dynamics settings. Or am I completely off now? I very busy at the moment but I think it's possible and I want to give it a try some day. In general I really think you are trying to solve a little too much with just dynamics, you can mix different methods to achive a nice look, as long as it looks real it is real even if it's all made with morphs. For final fantasy I don't think that the hair in those movies look real.

prospector
04-29-2007, 01:36 PM
Exactly, it could be done better if it was in layers then there would be the input areas for it. But for the wig I have above I would need 4 layers then with all the parenting, setting up layers of dynamics, it just becomes a hassle compared to just adding the input channels into a cloth FX pane and and making a NEW panel (renamed HairFX or selling points to Newtek).
All newer user could then just click HairFX and no workarounds. Everyone is happy.

Newtek has a 'true dynamics' hair program
Users have easy way to control hair

with no more work or coding that adding a few more inputs.

And as for layers, it works 'better' but not quite there.

Even if you only had 1 strand of hair, you still could not put all the weights needed for real movement as there are not the input spaces.
But layers does make it look better than without them. Just not real enough.

And isn't that the point of 3D realism? Why does everyone look for more realistic lighting? why look for more realistic materials? Why look for more realistic blurs, lenses, smoke, water?

Celshader
04-29-2007, 01:37 PM
And in 2 weeks of trying to get something like real hair dynamics, I have tried every setting from 0 to 20000.

I get either the overall hair OK but no wispyness in flips or the fine hairs

OR

I get the wispyness good but loose the overall hair actions.
I've come up with trys that have better hair actions than seen on the movie 'Final Fantasy' but even then it's not real looking.

There are just not enough inputs for different settings.

Prospector, I still haven't looked at your scene yet. Right now I'm preparing for my presentation at the LightWave User's Group Meeting (http://www.lalightwave.com/location.htm) here in Los Angeles, so it may be some time yet before I get to it.

This thread makes me want to look at your scene, though, since I know ClothFX/Sasquatch hair setups are way, way easier than what you're going through right now.

-+-

Quick tips:

Keep the MetaLink cage as low-poly as possible, and use morphs/displacements on the MetaLinked child object for finer actions.

Also...for the Cage object...use Fiber Effect on the Y-axis (to zero out all Spring forces that are 100% aligned with the XZ plane) and a weak Substructure from 0-10 while the Spring force is from 500-1000. The Substructure should help keep the vertical Spring-chains from crossing over each other due to the Fiber Effect.

Set the Viscosity to 10-20 to dampen bounces. DO NOT activate any collision detection until the hair settings you choose make the cage object move like hair. This will give you a faster hair setup, since collision detection slows down ClothFX calculations.

Gotta work on my presentation...

Dodgy
04-30-2007, 03:24 AM
The problem is LW doesn't know what the 'fine' hair is, unless you've got the whole fine strand with a very much smaller value weightmap than a 'thick' hair. Plus hair has it's own sub structure where a curl tends to stay curly, even if it's dangling down (i.e. a head on it's side will dangle hair down, but the hair will still be curly) For this state, you really need a hair model with the curls, and a hair model for dynamics which has straight strands, which is controlling the curly hair by metalink. I think maybe separate layer will save you lots of time in the long term.

I'm not sure why FF isn't rendering the dynamics. I don't have FF so I can't explore it either. Did you save the clothfx motion?

prospector
04-30-2007, 06:30 AM
The problem is LW doesn't know what the 'fine' hair is, unless you've got the whole fine strand with a very much smaller value weightmap than a 'thick' hair.
Exactly, but there are not enough inputs to define different hairs.


Did you save the clothfx motion?
yep saved.


I think maybe separate layer will save you lots of time in the long term.

When you do seperate layers it's *cough* better *cough cough*, but because the strand base weights are different (to make up for the lack of inputs), my flip hair or fine hairs move slightly different in the main swaying, so they kinda come out from the main body of hair. By playing with numbers (either 1 number at a time or even into the decimal places) it can be kept manageable, but it is noticable.

prospector
04-30-2007, 06:33 AM
As for the rendering,
Saslite renders no matter if saved or not.
Problem was e-mailed to developer, no answer yet. (3 days)

prospector
05-08-2007, 04:16 PM
problem (crashing on FF close) is fixed, something about SDK in 9.2 has changed over 9.
Updated now. :D
AND I think I found the order uf use for FF deformations.

May not be the RIGHT way but it works.

Have to save the .txt file, have to save the mdd file, then have to load .txt file first and it autoloads the mdd file.

convoluted but hey it gets me going :D :D :thumbsup:

prospector
05-09-2007, 07:02 AM
nope :thumbsdow
just not rendering dynamics with FF.
I thought I had it but was false hope. Saved motion in every spot that was allowed.

Saslite works fine with dynamics with or without saving,but hair looks terrable

Ztreem
05-09-2007, 07:18 AM
I must be a bug in the FF plugin, or? have you contacted the FF support?

prospector
05-09-2007, 07:31 AM
yep, nothing yet

prospector
05-09-2007, 02:39 PM
Updated to LW SP1
Updated FF to build 563

results :cry:

prospector
05-09-2007, 02:43 PM
I don't know if it's LW or FF doing or not doing something.
Something is really wrong tho.

Ztreem
05-09-2007, 03:08 PM
It must be something wrong with FF, because the dynamics works fine in LW and in Sas lite and NOT in FF. By the way that sas hair looks terrible. :D

prospector
05-09-2007, 03:23 PM
By the way that sas hair looks terrible.
:agree: :D

pooby
05-15-2007, 03:43 PM
I have the same problem.. No rendering of the dynamics on FF hair.
Well, I 'CAN' get it working, with a convoluted workaround, but it's not right.
The workaround is.. takt the hair guide object (which has metalink on) then add clothfx and bake out the mdd.
Then re-apply the mdd with Dponts mddnode applied after bones and it will work.. HOWEVER it seems to not know where the 'head' object is so it will render as if it were not there and comp it badly on top.
I can't understand how Proton managed to get this working in the Fibre Factory thread.. maybe he was using an earlier unbroken version or an earlier version of LW?

prospector
05-15-2007, 03:58 PM
That's what I was thinking and something got broken.
Can't seem to get either Newtek or Jon to look at the thread here to see what happened.
Wrote them both e-mails, but nothing in the last week and a half.

pooby
05-15-2007, 04:42 PM
Well, I wrote to Jon today too.. hopefully he'll reply to one of us.

prospector
05-26-2007, 10:59 PM
WOOOOO HOOOOOOOOooo

Build 577 works !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice job Jon !!!:thumbsup:

zapper1998
02-03-2008, 09:31 PM
did you ever get the problem solved??

I am doing some hair and need some help with some dynamics..

:help:

Mike

prospector
02-04-2008, 01:20 AM
did you ever get the problem solved??
No

Still working on it.

Can't get full motion and any wispyness together at same time.
All hair goes to gravity and collides well and if that is all your looking for then that will work.
But I am trying to get all the stuff you see in a normal hair shampoo commercial with gravity when hand moves hair, collision on hand and head, and wind wispyness on just the ends of hair, but not all at same force or direction.

But welcome to my nightmare :D :D

JMCarrigan
05-13-2008, 03:56 PM
Propector! Now figured out? Build 1384 coming soon, maybe then?

prospector
05-13-2008, 04:53 PM
Nope
dynamics need major overhaul.
Have been trying now for almost 6 months daily, waiting for that magic button click combination.
Now even FiberFX not giving as good render results as FFIV, but won't complain too much as without dynamics....it's pretty much useless for me.

Phil
05-14-2008, 01:10 AM
Careful folks - the NDA is still in place.

RebelHill
05-14-2008, 08:24 AM
Ive used LW cloth for long hair before and got on Ok with the dunamics... havent had the wispy bits affected by breeze, but it rolls over shoulders, interracts with hands etc ok for me....

Hair isnt mentioned, but this is most of what I know about getting good results out of LW dynaimcs...

www.rebelhill.net/clothfx

prospector
05-14-2008, 10:42 AM
Careful folks - the NDA is still in place.

Just talkin dynamics..they under NDA?
Yep I got gravity workin
I got collisions workin

OR

I got wispyness workin

OR

I get gravity, collisions workin together

OR

I get gravity and wispyness workin WITH collisions.

OR

I get gravity, collisions, wispyness workin WITH keepin the modeled hair.

BUT

To keep modeled hair so it returns to modeled shape after any movement ALONG with all the other stuff, means I have to set substructure and hold structure and spring into the thousands which makes the calculation times go into the hours per frame.

I *COULD* shorten the times a bit by making just some guides do the collisions and then rendering a full head of hair...

BUT

The hairs ( in the fiber Quantity slot) that the guides control, go thru the skin alot (because only the guides get checked and not every hair).....not acceptable for me with closeups.

So I have to calculate ALL hairs (usually 2 million modeled polys) to stop it.
And keep fiber quantity to 1 with no clusters.


And so I keep going, looking for the magic calc combination of numbers.....
6 months daily and counting.

It's there somewhere....
hiding...
laughing

Ztreem
05-14-2008, 10:49 AM
I don't see why you don't use meta link, so you can have a low poly cage drive all your guides, or maybe you've tried that already.

prospector
05-14-2008, 02:12 PM
Tried that and it works as far as it goes.
It's the EXTRA hairs that are not calculated directly, that go thru skin and cause problems.
Hence..ALL hairs have to be calculated.

JMCarrigan
05-14-2008, 02:24 PM
Careful folks - the NDA is still in place.

What's the NDA got to do....? Is this thread outside the beta threads?

Ztreem
05-15-2008, 11:50 AM
Tried that and it works as far as it goes.
It's the EXTRA hairs that are not calculated directly, that go thru skin and cause problems.
Hence..ALL hairs have to be calculated.

That should not happen if you do it right, as the high poly strand (guides) object will be driven by the low poly cage that collide with things. I think that with a careful and ballanced low/mid guide cage that drives the high poly guides it should be doable. I don't really have time to do tests to help you out, but I'm pretty sure it's possible.

prospector
05-15-2008, 02:22 PM
That should not happen if you do it right, as the high poly strand (guides) object will be driven by the low poly cage that collide with things.
It will always happen if not all hairs are calculated.
Seen in pics (fine art eh? :D), if more than 1 hair is rendered per guide, the hair closest to skin between collision and guide will always go thru as guide has not collided yet and will continue to be effected by gravity untill it does.
By that time hair is inside skin.
In 6 months I have literally tried every combination of collider and collidee.
The ONLY way to NOT have hairs go thru skin is to calculate each strand.

prospector
05-15-2008, 02:24 PM
Well..suppose to say "hairs between guide and collision go thru skin"

learning GIMP and cut part off...ARGGG:D

Ztreem
05-15-2008, 03:09 PM
The thing is that if it works with all guides calculated, then it most work with a low poly cage driving all the guides. If all guides is driven by the cage they shold not go inside the head and if no guide is inside the head it should render fine. If you use more hairs per guide you will end up with the same result even with all guides calculated. You should not have less guides for the hair only for the dynamics calculation.

prospector
05-15-2008, 04:25 PM
I don't think we are talking the same things.....

In FiberFX I set 1 hair per poly and grow them
then I put in guides to style them

If I then save them out (hairs and guides) I try to use the guides for a colliding object with hairs linked to them.

But because 1 of the guides controls many hairs, the 'inside' hairs go thru the skin before the guides even get close to a collision.

I can make more guides and less hairs go thru skin (each guide controls less hair)....but some still do.
I can go 1 guide for every 2 hairs and some will still go thru skin.

Now 1 hair per poly isn't near enough hair to cover head so I have to go with the other setting (forget offhand, but it's the random one (which isn't really too random)) and set it to about 40,000 hairs with 10 segments each for good deformation.

I have to have the quantity setting to 1 (ie 40,000 hairs) to get no hair going thru skin. If I set it to 2 (80,000 hairs effectively), the 'instanced' hairs go theu skin in places as they are sometimes drawn on the inside of the mesh hair.

So what is the point of having 1 guide for each hair when I just calculate the hairs themselves?

Unless I am missing something about your explanation.

It's the only way I've found to make sure no hairs go thru skin.
If there was another I would be a happy happy person.

Ztreem
05-16-2008, 01:45 AM
OK, then it's not a dynamics problem, it's a hair problem. You said that the dynamics was broken and didn't do what you wanted but it seems like the real problem is to get the hair(fiberFX/FFIV) to do what you want. I would write a feature request with some example pics and explanition that fiberfx should have a collision option that keeps it from intersect this collision object.

prospector
05-16-2008, 08:37 PM
it's a hair problem.
Nah, not hair problem

Dynamics not multithreaded and just too slow when after realistic.

Hair is doing everything I want. Color, shape,shadows........
Don't think there can be a collision if the hair being drawn (in quantity slider) which is fake (ie,not real polys), can be calculated in collision, (they are a figment of the render engine....right?)

It's just the dynamic settings have to be soo high to get realistic movement.
And it's LW dynamics that control movement, not fiberFX.

Ztreem
05-17-2008, 03:04 AM
But it's go through your collision object because the hair plugin places hair where you can't control it. If you had more control over quantity placement then it should not be a problem. If you only use 1 quantity per guide you have full control. So it depends how you see it, I think both solution could be better. Lw's dynamics is quite bad (slow/unstable) but can do a lot if you use simple objects when you do the calculations. Can't comment on the hair thing yet as it's not released and this is not a beta forum.

RebelHill
05-17-2008, 06:23 AM
Ive had a bit of this when doing long dynamic hair on a character and using sasquatch... by using fewer hair guides for dynamics, and metalinking to a thicker wig for sas has indeed caused some hairs that render on the "inside" to penetrate my collision object.

The fix is just to be careful about where the smaller number of guides are placed for ur calc, and tweaking your collision offset to compensate.