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View Full Version : Netek! I want something like this



Brian Peterson
04-15-2007, 02:31 PM
As impressive as NewTek's innovation of allowing color correction right on a scope or waveform, think about combining it with THIS! (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/?movie=nab)

How about it Newtek?

Rich Deustachio
04-15-2007, 03:44 PM
WOW Final cuts pro looks fantastic....anyone want to buy a VT5....er um well a VT4 with VT5 free when it comes out next decade?

Ivan
04-15-2007, 08:38 PM
Wow, and to think that in 2002 Newtek's VT2 pretty much smoked FCP2 as an editor. FCP is up to 6 now and Newtek is back down to 1.

What happened??

Ivan

Brian Peterson
04-15-2007, 09:30 PM
Wow, and to think that in 2002 Newtek's VT2 pretty much smoked FCP2 as an editor. FCP is up to 6 now and Newtek is back down to 1.
What happened??
Ivan

Well I still say it smokes FCP where it counts, speed! I believe it's Eugene who has always said it's a bread and butter editor and I agree. While they sit and wait, I sit and edit. FCS excels though at integration of other apps. It's the other programs that are impressive and Motion is obviously now their AE killer.

If Newtek could just get Aura up to speed, add a DVD creator and a sound editor we'd be good to go. Notice to touting of the "paint" aspects of Motion? I really want a Color killer though!

Ivan
04-16-2007, 05:57 AM
I disagree.

Ivan

Ty Catt
04-16-2007, 07:11 AM
Speed is way more important to me, too.:agree:


If Aura were improved as well as a sound editor included, FCP wouldn't make me think twice.

Ty

P.S. A good videographer that does their job wouldn't need half that crap.

imagic
04-16-2007, 08:33 AM
Apple relentlessly promotes their products through impressive advertisements. Their products are great, but... but usually not as great as their ads.

I don't make $100,000+ TV ads for a living... I do my own editing and Speed matters alot. Vegas 7 and After Effects are also a capable combo, but SpeedEdit is indeed something different... it really is faster to use for "everyday" work.


Speed is way more important to me, too.:agree:


If Aura were improved as well as a sound editor included, FCP wouldn't make me think twice.

Ty

P.S. A good videographer that does their job wouldn't need half that crap.

Ivan
04-16-2007, 12:11 PM
A good videographer that does their job wouldn't need half that crap

Like color correction, auto white balance and image stablization, all part of SE, if you don't need it, it's a waste, if you need it once you realize it's true value. As for speed, editing is only part of the equation. Delivery has become an equal partner. Rarely will you roll off to tape and much more often you find yourself rendering to multiple formats. So, how does the Batch converter in SE work? Oops, never mind.

This is the problem, features requested in VT2 are not yet available and the list of needed features continues to grow because of the industry. No one even asked for a Batch renderer in VT2 and now it's on the list. If it's not on the list, well you decide.

Ivan

Bobt
04-17-2007, 09:41 AM
OK.. The FCP Color is not impressive. Its OLD tek. You could do that stuff in AE, Shake and many others. I saw the demo. They use the new Dual Quad and there is no big delay. Saying FCP is slow on that box would be lie BUT.. there would no
big delay with AE or Shake etc if you used the same box. The color grading was something that could be done with ColorReplace and 3Wheeler in fact I was thinking of writting the same interface BUT, the problem is who would use it? 2 maybe three of you? This stuff looks easy in the demo but is not.
To properly colorize you have to know what you want to do what and what you want the look to be etc.. The only thing I saw that you couldnt do in SE was point tracking.
But again color manipulation like this is old tech that you could do for a long time. Even in VT4 ;) Is it because of the advert you think its new?

Bob

Mike Maier
04-17-2007, 03:16 PM
OK.. The FCP Color is not impressive. Its OLD tek. You could do that stuff in AE, Shake and many others. I saw the demo. They use the new Dual Quad and there is no big delay. Saying FCP is slow on that box would be lie BUT.. there would no
big delay with AE or Shake etc if you used the same box. The color grading was something that could be done with ColorReplace and 3Wheeler in fact I was thinking of writting the same interface BUT, the problem is who would use it? 2 maybe three of you? This stuff looks easy in the demo but is not.
To properly colorize you have to know what you want to do what and what you want the look to be etc.. The only thing I saw that you couldnt do in SE was point tracking.
But again color manipulation like this is old tech that you could do for a long time. Even in VT4 ;) Is it because of the advert you think its new?

Bob

Funny you say that because Apple's new Color is actually DaVinci killer Silicone Color Final Touch 2k, a $24,000 color corrector that Apple added for FREE to Final Cut Studio. It is a great tool and competes with DaVinci. No other NLE on the market today for PC can do better than that in terms of color correction. Truth is Final Cut Studio is the best option around short of a full blown Smoke suite or something on the same level. It's even giving high end Avids a run for their money. Studio now has 5.1 support along with many other improvements to Soudtrack Pro in version 2. It seems its giving Vegas a run for its money where it shined most. On the top of that Motion 2 with 3D is GREAT! FCP is now resolution, format and frame rate independent.
Did I mention the $24,000 DaVinci killer color corrector?
What Final Cut Studio became with the current upgrades is basically a DS killer (it was a Media Composer killer already) and all for $1,300. While all that is happening SpeedEdit doesn’t even have a lousy demo yet. Well, anyway, for me it no longer matters. I waited too long. I’m getting Final Cut Studio 2.
I may stop by every now and then to see how the “Fastest Editor on the Planet” is doing but given how slow things move around here I find that self proclaimed title quite ironic.

Keith Nealy
04-17-2007, 05:13 PM
I am inclined to agree with you.

Bobt
04-18-2007, 05:05 AM
>Funny you say that because Apple's new Color is actually
>DaVinci killer Silicone Color Final Touch 2k,
What couldnt you do in Fusion, Shake or AE?
Maybe its the interface? Honestly at the show I saw nothing that has not
been done before.
So please give me an idea as to what it was doing that was so special.
Masking? Color Replacment, Auto color balance like PhotoShop?
What item is it that makes it all that?

I am very interested to hear.

Bob

Brian Peterson
04-18-2007, 09:42 AM
>Funny you say that because Apple's new Color is actually
>DaVinci killer Silicone Color Final Touch 2k, What couldn't you do in Fusion, Shake or AE? Maybe its the interface? Honestly at the show I saw nothing that has not been done before.
So please give me an idea as to what it was doing that was so special.
Masking? Color Replacment, Auto color balance like PhotoShop?
What item is it that makes it all that?
I am very interested to hear.

Speaking strictly for myself Bob my understanding is that Final Touch, like Davinci was far more precise and could "recover" bad footage better than any other color correction software out there. Maybe that's the sales pitch and isn't really true, but it was my understading.

As to what makes me like it: Well from watching the video, curves which look really similar to Photoshop curves, I'd love to have that in SpeedEDIT. Not spline, curves. The presets, SpeedEDITS biggest weakness vs other NLEs, filters and presets. From what I have seen Nattress can't be beat with his presets. Masking, I'm fighting with a clip now which I could really use area isolation, masking whatever you want to call it. I have the subject of the clip properly color corrected, the bride's dress is actually white now, but everything around them is still green. Just ranting now but I have never seen lighting that turned everything green... Blue, yes, yellow, yes, red yes, green never! But lighting in this one church along the back walls shows up on video green even though in person it looks more yellow and no there are no green filters on the lights, I double checked. So I'd like the ability once I get the subjects fixed, to push the background back to it's correct color. We can't do that with VT or SpeedEDIT right now.

I also saw in the video that the wave form instead of being all white can be set to display the actual colors it's representing, red, green, blue. That is something I posted I'd like to see on another thread.

That's my answer.

Paul Lara
04-18-2007, 10:05 AM
FYI, Brian, I've battled green lighting before. It's caused by mixing soft white and daylight blue flourescent tubes in the overhead lights.

Brian Peterson
04-18-2007, 02:36 PM
FYI, Brian, I've battled green lighting before. It's caused by mixing soft white and daylight blue flourescent tubes in the overhead lights.

Paul? What are you doing here, aren't you suppose to be selling copies of SpeedEDIT. Get back out there so Tim can hire more programmers and you guys can come out with a DVD authoring program, update Aura and issue a Color killer!:thumbsup: Oh and so next year NewTek can afford 2 locations and a streaming connection to the internet.

Thanks for the info, never knew that, only place I have encountered it in is this one church.

imagic
04-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Ugh. Tiresome.


Funny you say that because Apple's new Color is actually DaVinci killer Silicone Color Final Touch 2k, a $24,000 color corrector that Apple added for FREE to Final Cut Studio. It is a great tool and competes with DaVinci. No other NLE on the market today for PC can do better than that in terms of color correction. Truth is Final Cut Studio is the best option around short of a full blown Smoke suite or something on the same level. It's even giving high end Avids a run for their money. Studio now has 5.1 support along with many other improvements to Soudtrack Pro in version 2. It seems its giving Vegas a run for its money where it shined most. On the top of that Motion 2 with 3D is GREAT! FCP is now resolution, format and frame rate independent.
Did I mention the $24,000 DaVinci killer color corrector?
What Final Cut Studio became with the current upgrades is basically a DS killer (it was a Media Composer killer already) and all for $1,300. While all that is happening SpeedEdit doesn’t even have a lousy demo yet. Well, anyway, for me it no longer matters. I waited too long. I’m getting Final Cut Studio 2.
I may stop by every now and then to see how the “Fastest Editor on the Planet” is doing but given how slow things move around here I find that self proclaimed title quite ironic.

Mike Maier
04-18-2007, 04:16 PM
>Funny you say that because Apple's new Color is actually
>DaVinci killer Silicone Color Final Touch 2k,
What couldnt you do in Fusion, Shake or AE?
Maybe its the interface? Honestly at the show I saw nothing that has not
been done before.
So please give me an idea as to what it was doing that was so special.
Masking? Color Replacment, Auto color balance like PhotoShop?
What item is it that makes it all that?

I am very interested to hear.

Bob


How about we start with 8 secondaries?

imagic
04-18-2007, 04:34 PM
Why'd they stop at 8... so often I can't complete a project because I need 9 or 10 secondaries. Dang.


How about we start with 8 secondaries?

Bobt
04-18-2007, 07:35 PM
>How about we start with 8 secondaries?
Just like stacking any number of color replacement/masked color adjusments?
Yeah any app can make a stack of mask and adjust.

Bob

Lightwolf
04-19-2007, 03:47 AM
What couldnt you do in Fusion, Shake or AE?

Easy. Workflow.
Have you ever tried to do complex colour corrections on a shot by shot basis, pulling footage from an edit using any of these packages?
*ouch*
Color gives you the same options, but you can work at 10 times the speed, and that does make a difference.

One could always say: Why bother using a video editor, you can do the same thing in a compositor. Of course you can... but how efficient is it?

Cheers,
Mike

Mike Maier
04-19-2007, 06:31 AM
Why'd they stop at 8... so often I can't complete a project because I need 9 or 10 secondaries. Dang.

So good luck with SpeedEdit, AE and whatever you are using for grading short of a full blown grading system like DaVinci, Pablo , Pandora, Lustre etc.
Or you can get Final Cut Studio 2 :hey:

How many secondaries SpeedEdit has by the way?

Mike Maier
04-19-2007, 06:33 AM
>How about we start with 8 secondaries?
Just like stacking any number of color replacement/masked color adjusments?
Yeah any app can make a stack of mask and adjust.

Bob

Really? Do you know what secondary color correction is?
I know Vegas has only 1 for example.

Mike Maier
04-19-2007, 06:56 AM
Yeah any app can make a stack of mask and adjust.

Bob

Coming to think of it, after the above remark it's not even worth to keep replying to your posts. If any application can do what Color does, why were people paying $24,000 for Silicone Color Final Touch before Apple bought it and made it available for free with FCS2? Why people even buy Davincis or Pablos? Final Touch is on the same level.
Last reply to your nonsense.

imagic
04-19-2007, 07:33 AM
You can have six secondary color filters per clip in Vegas... (actually 6 filters per clip, but they could all be secondary color). The filter(s) can be applied to clips, or to the video bus track, they can be keyframed, again on a clip-by-clip basis or through the whole project with the bus.

Secondary Color Correction is not a difficult concept to grasp, or to research. Why insult the intelligence of people you don't know?


Really? Do you know what secondary color correction is?
I know Vegas has only 1 for example.

imagic
04-19-2007, 08:25 AM
Perhaps it is just an enthusiasm for color treatments; the "custom film stock" look that is driving this discussion. It is indeed very important in the motion picture industry, and television, to control color to an extreme degree. If my career took me to Hollywood, I'd surely be more interested in FCP.

I'm self-employed, and do video on the side (I'm a commercial architectural photographer by trade)... furthermore my videos are in the 30sec to 5min range, shot run and gun style, usually in HDV. No wonder SpeedEdit seems right for me.

Part of being a fast editor is not having too many controls to contend with. Minimalism does beget speed. Newtek is not pitching SPeedEdit as the world's "best" NLE, but sometimes it seems that is what is being argued. Even if "World's Fastest" claim is highly subjective, I do feel that keeping it simple is a benefit towards that goal. I guess SpeedEdit sounds better than EfficientEdit, which is how I think of it.


Coming to think of it, after the above remark it's not even worth to keep replying to your posts. If any application can do what Color does, why were people paying $24,000 for Silicone Color Final Touch before Apple bought it and made it available for free with FCS2? Why people even buy Davincis or Pablos? Final Touch is on the same level.
Last reply to your nonsense.

Bobt
04-19-2007, 09:31 AM
Mike I wrote colorReplace and 3Wheeler for VT4 and SE which does masking and color replacement and color manipulation. It even had saveable presets.
It did some of what I saw Color do.
Both filters had area masks that can be combined with a color selection mask. My interface is NO where as cool though.
And it did not supply as many masks but it was out 2 years ago.

And I know you can do this in other applications as well.
The workflow is not the same but it can be done.

Second the reason why people pay/paid a ton for color systems is wasnt until recently that low cost CPU power was strong enough to deal with 2K/4K footage. When did the Quad CPU come out or even the core2 Duo? When did HDV happen about a year ago?
Most editing apps worked primarily in SD/DV which is what people were using.

To prove my point at NAB Apple was using the new Dual Quads because it still
takes some serious horsepower to get this working quickly at large sizes.

In comparison a lot of things that were done on 50K SGI boxes a few years back are done on AE on a PC or Mac.

So instead of thinking of it as a miracle think of it as a new interface you like.
Remember one more point. Those big money color systems come with one extra feature.. A colorist.

What a demo does not show is the amount of preperation goes into the slot selection etc. how to approach the shot and how to get a dramatic look with
the tools you are given. Colorists know how to emotion from color. They get that look. I like to think I know something about color but I would have never
chosen to use an ellipse to mask off the boxer shot to darken the surounding and warm up the area around him. Just wound not have thought of that.
But a good colorist would if you say isolate him some more.
Color is OLD tech. Not something that you could not have done before if you
wanted to.
This was all out long ago.. Truely nothing revolutionary, except for the marketing.

PS..
How many of you do color treatments..

Bobt
04-19-2007, 09:36 AM
>custom film stock
Well there is nothing that Color does that will make video HD included look like film. That is another thing altogether. There just isnt enough lattitude unless you have a RED. Then maybe you could get much closer.

Bob

Bobt
04-19-2007, 09:37 AM
>Last reply to your nonsense.
ROFL..

Bobt
04-19-2007, 03:46 PM
Anyone know if I can get that ducati shot they used?

imagic
04-23-2007, 10:58 AM
Hi Bob,

You make many good points. As a still photographer I know exactly what you are talking about; in fact even 12-bit RAW source files start to visibly band with too much color processing. 16-bit and beyond source files are necessary to do truly cool stuff.

Funny, I shoot for architects, and they don't consider video to be a viable medium yet; mostly because of limited dynamic range. I end up creating enormous 360 virtual tours (6000x12000 pixels) in HDR, and then animating the result in a 3D application. It's the only way I can adequately control color and tone as in a still photo (and retouch it, too) while still being able to create camera moves (pans + zooms) that look real, as opposed to 2-dimensional (Ken Burns effect).

I'd need a 16-bit RAW video format to get close to the lattitude required. Hopefully we'll see that in a sub-$10,000 camera before the decade is over.



>custom film stock
Well there is nothing that Color does that will make video HD included look like film. That is another thing altogether. There just isnt enough lattitude unless you have a RED. Then maybe you could get much closer.

Bob

SBowie
04-23-2007, 11:39 AM
Many of us here started out back in the day with 8 bit colour, then the wonders of HAM8. 24 bit colour kicked the doors open, so liberating, so many less restrictions ("Floyd Steinberg, begone!")

Uncompressed (thank you NewTek!) was another gate crasher ('yet here we are, compressed again' -- sounds like a C&W song lyric) ... to me, affordable end-to-end HDRI is going to be the next big one. I've been saying this for a couple years now, can't wait!

BeniToaster
04-24-2007, 10:02 AM
Hola
I have been doing color correction with the Toaster scince version 1 with Razor, now the latest thing I finished is a short film shot on 16mm transfered in my cintel telecine, I color corrected the primaries on a Da Vinci, to give the short 3 different looks, also I had to match 3 different color film stock, and a bw reversal. The secondaries only a couple of them one was done in the Da Vinci straight out from the telecine and the other was done on the digitized footage.
As for Apple Color I saw the demos at NAB, first they said it was a 1 light transfer, not true it was already graded from the the telecine suite, with a DaVinci or Poggle. They just changed the grade with Color and added filters and looks.
We can acomplish this this in SpeedEDIT as well, just don't expect that an HDV clip will end up looking as good as a s16mm or 35mm footage.
I can post some stills from the short if you like.
NewTek was ussing some 35mm shots to demo the color correction of SpeedEDIT, that I provided to them, the Tequila fields.
But I must admit that I liked that Apple included Color in their FCP bundle.
As of the RED camera I didint like their attitude at NAB, and the camera still shows some problems in the cadence of fast movements, and other thing when is it shipping?
For that kind of digital cinema cameras I liked very much the Silicon Imaging camera shipping in June, is better than the Arri Digital camera and of course better than the Red.
Thanks

bobgilles
04-24-2007, 01:46 PM
Beni, you are obviosly using the best color correction out there before you even capture, but I was curious if you have ever used the auto white balance feature in Speededit? Once I get color corrected telecines from the lab, I am always concerned about correcting in NLE's.

couryhouse
04-24-2007, 07:14 PM
of course thre was some great footage, great blondes and heck... I did not know ducati will still in the motorcycle business......


what a rush.....



As impressive as NewTek's innovation of allowing color correction right on a scope or waveform, think about combining it with THIS! (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/?movie=nab)

How about it Newtek?

couryhouse
04-26-2007, 10:37 PM
speed edit is onlty fast if you alreay understand the toaster layout end methodolighy... unfurtunatly I find it does not really seem to flow for me. I am used to movie maker and vegas by sony.... i suspect most of you grew up with the toaster interface?


Apple relentlessly promotes their products through impressive advertisements. Their products are great, but... but usually not as great as their ads.

I don't make $100,000+ TV ads for a living... I do my own editing and Speed matters alot. Vegas 7 and After Effects are also a capable combo, but SpeedEdit is indeed something different... it really is faster to use for "everyday" work.

Lightwolf
04-27-2007, 01:58 AM
i suspect most of you grew up with the toaster interface?
Well, I for sure didn't. Speed Razor, Premiere (various versions), discreet edit* (hands down the fastest for straight editing and a shame it died), now SE.
SE for me is the second quickest to work with for simple edits and the fastest once you need to tweak a bit. It still has its issues though (feature wise).

Cheers,
Mike

radams
04-27-2007, 08:00 AM
Many of us here started out back in the day with 8 bit colour, then the wonders of HAM8. 24 bit colour kicked the doors open, so liberating, so many less restrictions ("Floyd Steinberg, begone!")

Uncompressed (thank you NewTek!) was another gate crasher ('yet here we are, compressed again' -- sounds like a C&W song lyric) ... to me, affordable end-to-end HDRI is going to be the next big one. I've been saying this for a couple years now, can't wait!

For two years Uh....Haven't I been shouting out of the desert on HDR...for at least 6 years or longer ;)

From acquisition thru editing, FX's and post...to master.
To output to any other format for distribution....

Maintains the best CC options. Contrast, highlights/blacks, etc...makes all transitions and FXs look more natural..as well as the perseved colors are more to how our eyes work.

Allows for less light kits on set...if you can capture with mulitple F stops...then blend them...either on location or in post....

Oh don't get me started on HDR...

:)

I want HDR end to end...!!!!!

Cheers,

Ray

Bobt
04-28-2007, 08:02 AM
>I want HDR end to end...!!!!!
Why cant NewTek do this?
Aquire and output end to end HDRI? Use Wavelet like the RED does.
That was fantastic footage.

Bob

axaboss
04-28-2007, 11:47 PM
Apple's Color is designed for detail work when you start using the advance toolset in the program. This will SLOOOOWW you down. Speededit is designed to edit fast. A simple color correction tool is good enough.

HDR support would be sweet though. :)