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metahumanity
04-10-2007, 02:40 AM
Are there any news? What they mention on their site seems interesting and very broad, but I havenīt heard any news about the product for quite some time.

jeremyhardin
04-10-2007, 03:02 AM
It's Vaporware! :D Didn't you know?

It'll most likely ship after Duke Nukem Forever :)

oooh burn!

tonybliss
04-10-2007, 03:05 AM
that's bad then

Maybe, just maybe .... autodesk or Avid bought Enki :(

StereoMike
04-10-2007, 03:58 AM
that's bad then

Maybe, just maybe .... autodesk or Avid bought Enki :(

How do you come to this thought? PIM is still rather LW dependant (for authoring).
Don't take Neverko serious. It's just his assumption, no fact.
Nobody bought Enki.
PIM and it derivatives just grew bigger than expected.
And if you watched the fPrime 3.0 launch closely: It's difficult to launch a plug while the whole application code is turned upside down.
That doesn't mean, that the release is bound to 9.2 it just means you can't expect it before NT settles the raw design parameters of LW.

mike

tyrot
04-10-2007, 04:51 AM
dear neverko

i agree with stereomike...I dont get it why you said such a word on something you are totally unaware of...

we are beta testers..and we know it is not vaporware. It is a something different. Enki is already using PIM in myriad of different things.. So you should be informed before reaching your conclusions.

The only thing is PIM cannot be classified as plugin or renderer. It is a system, a new interactive vision. It is so versatile almost answering all your expectations from game making to interactive walkthroughs..even hi-end mocap facilities.

If Enki release his client lists you will be amazed, but he is so hard working and focused fella and his battlefield is not where your expectation lies. He is really working on something that defies many rules of CG applications. And creating just another LW plugin is not his aim i guarentee that..

best

jeremyhardin
04-10-2007, 05:12 AM
dear tyrot,

he said he was joking. let it go. it was a joke. and as most people are totally unaware of PIM's status (since we are not all so priveleged to be beta testers), it's a bit rude to berate someone for commenting on things when they don't have very closely held private knowlege.

And I'll add my comments to this. As far as we, the general public know, it is vaporware.

Here's what wiki has to say about vaporware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware).


Vaporware is software or hardware product which is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge, either with or without a protracted development cycle. The term implies unwarranted optimism, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility.

Call it being mean or uninformed, but it applies. We've seen announcements for almost 2 years now, things go quiet for months at a time, and not even a demo of the software has publicly emerged.

I wish the developers of PIM all the best, and I'm glad the beta users are having a laugh and a good time. But from a general public standpoint, it's entirely valid to call this vaporware until proven otherwise (i.e. until it does emerge).

All the best! :hey:

jeremyhardin
04-10-2007, 05:16 AM
So you should be informed before reaching your conclusions.

One more thing. And how would you propose we do that? Is there a client list somewhere? A release road map? An open beta that we were unaware of? No, no, and no.

Perhaps rather than belittling people for not having information that they have no means of attaining, you should relax a little and share what information you have and are permitted to share.

hrgiger
04-10-2007, 05:50 AM
It's pretty much vaporware to me. How long have we been hearing about it? Geez, so far it's like a Luxology before anyone ever heard of an app I won't name (Modo). Hopefully the results will be worth the wait (if there are any).

StereoMike
04-10-2007, 06:17 AM
I'm not sensitive about that. I have it on my harddrive and just relax :)

In fact I guess I would think the same as you if I knew the same few things as you.
But lemme put it this way: There's software that's just for a very narrow range of customers, and you and I aren't allowed to buy it. E.g custom solutions for military, movies, shipbuilding or whatever. Is that vaporware?
I can't say anything about the exact direction, but derivatives of PIM (not PIM as a whole) have evolved in such a direction of a specialised app , and just the fact, that you can't get your hands on it right now will give you the impression of vaporware; but there are some people who are into the matter and do stuff with PIM.
I guess it has rather to do with different stages of availability. Right now it's in the stage of experimental high end applications. Public stage will come later.

mike

StereoMike
04-10-2007, 06:34 AM
Right :neener:

tonybliss
04-10-2007, 06:51 AM
LOL ...I was joking around about the buy off :D

... but good nonetheless to hear it is being developed :)
Me thinks i was kinda right on the the premise it is being also dev for other apps and situations

tyrot
04-10-2007, 07:38 AM
dear jeremy

you are a nice guy but you are utterly wrong about your own conclusions, i must say..


I am not belittling people, because simply it is not my style. I know what i have in my Harddrive just like StereoMike. I know it rocks. And i know Enki's aim is greater than our imaginations. ANd i know it is way beyond any classifications. Ok. I mean it is way beyond our basic plugin perception. Because it is not a plugin, i should say it is just working with Lightwave...It is already powering up very hi-end projects...

But calling something Vaporware is an accusation (or conclusion or joke whatever) and i as a beta tester, am defending " it is not " because we are daily using it, playing with it amazed with it.

If someone comes here and says (jokingly) about one of your plugins "it is a vaporware" and if i were one of your beta testers, i would write the same very thing. So as a plugin developer you should be MORE sensitive with your words...At least you could send an email to Enki and asking about the status. This same goes with neverko. And you jeremy HOW come you can see things from a general standpoint as a Plugin writer. It really doesnt get into my head.

And if there is one sensitive point i have, that is "supporting programmers and developers" , yes it is my sensitive nerve, because with them i m earning money making my life amazing. So i say, we all should have this sensitive nerve about supporting the people who has extraordinary talent, commitment and vision.

best

mattclary
04-10-2007, 08:04 AM
I'm going to agree with Jeremy on this. If long-touted software is not available except to a select few "beta testers", it meets the definition of vaporware.

NOTE: "Vaporware" does not mean the code does not actually exist. And it doesn't mean it will never condense into actual liquid.

When is the scheduled release date?

Within a month?

Within a year?

tyrot
04-10-2007, 08:15 AM
dear matt

got your point. I cant tell anything more at this stage. You can call it whatever you want. I dont wanna create a hype or serving for a hype...

wish you

Best

jeremyhardin
04-10-2007, 08:26 AM
If someone comes here and says (jokingly) about one of your plugins "it is a vaporware" and if i were one of your beta testers, i would write the same very thing. So as a plugin developer you should be MORE sensitive with your words...At least you could send an email to Enki and asking about the status. This same goes with neverko. And you jeremy HOW come you can see things from a general standpoint as a Plugin writer. It really doesnt get into my head.

And if there is one sensitive point i have, that is "supporting programmers and developers" , yes it is my sensitive nerve, because with them i m earning money making my life amazing. So i say, we all should have this sensitive nerve about supporting the people who has extraordinary talent, commitment and vision.

best
the whole calling one of my plugins vaporware is not a valid analogy for 2 reasons.

1. I've released iDof before. Three versions of now, actually. Like it or not. Hell, I don't even like the old versions. But the fact remains, of all the things that could and would be said of iDof, vaporware is not one of them. I've only shown pre-release info on iDof 1 time, and released it a matter of a week or two later. And as a developer, (if you want to play that card of how I as a developer should feel), I did that intentionally because I hate it when pre-release information is shown months or years before the product is release. Doesn't matter if it's Newtek or Apple or Worley or Microsoft. I think it's unwise and I don't like being on the buying side of that kind of thing, so I opted not to do it from a dev side.

2. You aren't PIM's developer. You're a betatester. Last I checked Enki didn't get offensive and rude on behalf of his own tool. Maybe don't do it for him. Software isn't a spouse that needs it's honour defended. And if it does, you aren't the one that should be defending it's vaporware / non-vaporware status.

So maybe keep your notions of how people should act as developers to yourself. I know what I'm saying, and it's intentional. I make money using software, and the odd bit of cash by selling a plugin or two. And if you look at how supportive I am of what I do use, some would say it's above and beyond. Search for my posts on exrTrader. Or hell, look at my LightWave postings. But why would I care to tip-toe around PIM when I haven't used it, haven't seen it, and can't use it?

As to your notions of how people should and shouldn't act in general, not everyone shares your views. PIM meets the common accepted definition of vaporware. It hurt your feelings (for some reason) that someone pointed that out jokingly and apparently moreso when I did it seriously. You then criticised people for making decisions and observations without information that they had no means of getting. That's what I call rude.

You don't think it's rude? Fine, go on doing it. I'm not the forum-morality police (much as I would like that title). On the other hand, neither are you.

As of now, following the common accepted perception of vaporware, PIM is vaporware. When it's not, maybe I'll buy it.

The simple fact that this is discussion is even happening is not a reflection of how sensitive I'm not. It's a reflection of how sensitive you are.

tyrot
04-10-2007, 08:44 AM
dear jeremy

one objection...We are not living in heaven, we are not chosen ones... If neverko cares to be a betatester or you, i dont think enki will refuse it.

You are right, my points i mentioned here is my points. Enki knows his tool and he doesnt see any reason to create hype over it. I may create hype without even noticing...sorry for that.

But i assure whatever i tell about PIM will be directly cause hyper-waves within community and Enki, because his exceptionally well formed personality wont let me do it. He knows his schedules, he cant be forced, he cant be distracted with anything.

yes i am VERY VERY VERY biased, obsessive, mad and crazy and sensitive about supporting developers and new technology... If i reflect this enough than it is good.

And It may work one day for you as well. Because you are my hero as well. your input as a waver and a plugin developer is priceless. Because one day you will save one of my project with your plugins and i ll be deeply grateful with your efforts for writing that plugin. And you must be will be protected at all cost in the forums as well..

You, Pictrix, Victor, Enki, NewTeam, Greg, trueart even mighty Carl merritt..you are all putting your lifes in codes and saving our projects..So supporting you is supporting my own business and being grateful for your work. So i will continue being sensitive about this issues... i cant help it..

BEst

titane357
04-10-2007, 08:52 AM
In fact, we "just" want to know if it is worth waiting or it will be so costly that nobody of us will own PIm one day. I waited maxwell a long time but we have some ideas about future. I stayed tuned to PIM webpage for a while and now I can see this page on my screen even when computer is off....:D

jeremyhardin
04-10-2007, 09:02 AM
dear jeremy

one objection...We are not living in heaven, we are not chosen ones... If neverko cares to be a betatester or you, i dont think enki will refuse it.

You are right, my points i mentioned here is my points. Enki knows his tool and he doesnt see any reason to create hype over it. I may create hype without even noticing...sorry for that.

But i assure whatever i tell about PIM will be directly cause hyper-waves within community and Enki, because his exceptionally well formed personality wont let me do it. He knows his schedules, he cant be forced, he cant be distracted with anything.

yes i am VERY VERY VERY biased, obsessive, mad and crazy and sensitive about supporting developers and new technology... If i reflect this enough than it is good.

And It may work one day for you as well. Because you are my hero as well. your input as a waver and a plugin developer is priceless. Because one day you will save one of my project with your plugins and i ll be deeply grateful with your efforts for writing that plugin. And you must be will be protected at all cost in the forums as well..

You, Pictrix, Victor, Enki, NewTeam, Greg, trueart even mighty Carl merritt..you are all putting your lifes in codes and saving our projects..So supporting you is supporting my own business and being grateful for your work. So i will continue being sensitive about this issues... i cant help it..

BEst

While I can't say I share your views of 'supporting developers', I appreciate your turning this discussion positive. I'm impressed, and I thank you for the kind words, (unwarranted as I think them to be in the case of me...).

All the best! :thumbsup: :beerchug:

lion111
04-10-2007, 09:08 AM
hi
did not want to post here but
sorry could not resist
2 (i think more) years ago some exe files were shown here and in other forums
to show us the "non betas" our great future
hey man i really liked that stuff
the word _soon_ was mentioned....

since that time lets say every 6 months more or less the same (few exes)
and how great the future will be

now (of course only if i got this right)
pim has grown....
to a secret app for secret companies (doing incredible secret things) and of course the "beta testers"
i still would like to beleave that one day it also might come to us usuals
but the marketing idea behind this i really dont get it

greeting and please no bad feelings

Jure
04-10-2007, 09:21 AM
Pim IS vaporware ;)
I think the only way we can get to play with it is to get on to the beta team. Hey Enki make an open beta please! :)

cresshead
04-10-2007, 09:25 AM
''a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush''
...i think that says it all!

monovich
04-10-2007, 10:26 AM
I vote for vaporware, which isn't to say that it'll never appear and revolutionize the world...

MooseDog
04-10-2007, 10:56 AM
i'm voting for wispy-ware :D

you can see wisps of it floating here and there, a hint or a tease sometimes of its existence, but you can't grab ahold of it nor ever possess it.

i have no problem if it remains forever proprietary, don't tease us mortals though if that's the game plan.

gristle
04-10-2007, 02:36 PM
Maybe it has a case of feature creep? 3DFX anyone?

Apart from that, sounds like a nice app! Need a timemachine....

mattclary
04-10-2007, 09:16 PM
OK, yeah, I remember this thing now! Sorry dude, I think Duke Nukem Forever will release at the same time this does.



http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2961521&postcount=173

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4193217&postcount=296

t4d
04-10-2007, 11:17 PM
Sorry I'm been interested in PIM too I've done afew projects in Darkbasic and 3D game studio so PIM did or does look like something to check out

but 99% of us would label it Vapourware due to previews were released more then 2 years ago.

BUT Guys the defending seem " alittle " over the top.
using top secret clients and top secret projects,. ?? seem like BS to the rest of us.

COOL you guys are on Beta and it works and there more to it then we outsiders think ( Love to hear that, Good stuff but that's all you had to say .. )

Zbrush clearly see people have a right to rant about version 3 being late
But you guys seem to take deep offence to the V word being used and start attacking all guns blazing ?
take a breath it's just software.. you not Enki your just beta testers.

I'm sure Enki's a big boy and can take the vapourware word being thrown around, specially when he "knows" what will be released and when.

for me I Look forward to seeing what he releases. but wonder when that will happen.., My Excitment has dropped off alot and starting to want to see something out here. away from the super secret cleints and super secret projects.

Exception
04-10-2007, 11:43 PM
I'll work happily with PIM on my Optimus Keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Keyboard).

StereoMike
04-11-2007, 04:03 AM
BUT Guys the defending seem " alittle " over the top.
using top secret clients and top secret projects,. ?? seem like BS to the rest of us.


But you guys seem to take deep offence to the V word being used and start attacking all guns blazing ?
take a breath it's just software.. you not Enki your just beta testers.
Guys? There are two betatesters in this thread. Tyrot and me. So I felt offended by PIM being called vaporware and started attacking all guns blazing?
I don't have a problem calling it vaporware (and I actually have evidence of it being alive and kicking). Even Tyrot calmed down (and I guess that's not easy for him).
I just have a problem with some of you getting upset.
You know, this thread has been opened, cause someone wanted information on PIM. Two betatesters gave the little information they are allowed to hand out. And then you come along and say we are over the top and talk BS cause PIM being used in NDA applications (in your world it is called "top secret projects").
Your right, it's just software. So why start stamping down the only guys who could say something? Obviously you doesn't want us to comment on PIM threads if we can't say what you want to hear. Sorry for that dude. That's life.



My Excitment has dropped off alot and starting to want to see something out here. away from the super secret cleints and super secret projects.

Your choice. I hope your pride won't hinder you to approach it unbiased once it's out. I guess the world would miss some cool stuff if you don't lay your hands on PIM.


Ah, btw. http://community.livejournal.com/optimus_project/

Optimus keyboard will cost around 1500$ this year.



mike

t4d
04-11-2007, 04:24 AM
I do look forward to it when ever it comes =)

Tzan
04-11-2007, 07:29 AM
Just adding to the volume of people looking for PIM :)
Not complaining, just waiting.

I've programmed small games in C and Java. I worked at Turbine for a while testing and doing content creation for the Lord of the Rings Online game.

Totally willing to test PIM for games and arch vis :)

Last year Enki said he stopped answering the beta requests because he had enough. So I never bothered asking.

-------
That keyboard is wild.

TSpyrison
04-11-2007, 08:18 AM
I'll work happily with PIM on my Optimus Keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Keyboard).

:lol:

StereoMike
04-11-2007, 09:12 AM
I'll assign your faces to the enter-key when I got my Optimus. :P

Intuition
04-13-2007, 04:49 PM
I'll work happily with PIM on my Optimus Keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Keyboard).

Man, I've been following the Optimus since spring of 2005. I really hope it roxorz when it comes out.

http://community.livejournal.com/optimus_project

I check this blog alot to see the most recent news.

Exception
04-13-2007, 06:46 PM
I check this blog alot to see the most recent news.

Vapornews, I'm telling ya... ;)

badllarma
04-13-2007, 06:51 PM
It's funny to come here and see all this discusion the same could be said for 9.2 as well I suppose, some have it some do not but is it vaporware?

I'm number 3 here from the beta test side of things, in some ways it is our fault there has been a delay as early on we were requesting things more and more of which none were in the orginal plan for PIM, now it has been quiet for a while but as all things in life Enki has lot of other things on his plate as well as PIM.

I can vouch for this myself I have not used PIM for a couple of months at least but it's still there in my plugins folder ready to be used. Work and life limit when I can get round to using and testing it.
So when will it be released? Have not got a clue there is only one person who knows that so we will have to wait on his decision. :)

theo
04-13-2007, 11:19 PM
now it has been quiet for a while but as all things in life Enki has lot of other things on his plate as well as PIM.

Uh-huh, and the BT's are swearing up and down this isn't vaporware.

Go figure... the guy gets busy on "other" things and people aren't supposed to get the idea this whole PIM thing is an exercise in futility.

I, for one, despise vaporware. Problem gets worse though... If this thing never gets released OR it takes another two years to hit the public mouse Enki's got himself a reputation. I don't care if this guy is God. People don't like being monkeyed around with, which is why vaporware is disliked so intensely.

You don't build a software "revolution" as this thing is called on this kind of shaky foundation. The nitwit doesn't get busy he gets his head out of the clouds and produces the product or he keeps his and his beta testers mouths totally zipped until something substantial can be stated.

jeremyhardin
04-13-2007, 11:24 PM
It's funny to come here and see all this discusion the same could be said for 9.2 as well I suppose, some have it some do not but is it vaporware?
Perhaps, though 9.2 wasn't showing feature videos in summer 2005.

badllarma
04-13-2007, 11:52 PM
Theo there is no need to start insulting people, that's a rather rude atitude to have and no one is forcing anyone to buy it if/or when it is released.

Jeremy that is true, but in 2005 from what I can rember it was not even classed as beta maybe I think it even may have been pre alpha, although I could be wrong.
Also of course there is a big difference in team size if you were to compair one man working on a brand new product/plugin against a large team of people working towards a point release.

At the end of the day the ones who have seen it myself included are impressed by the function it adds to Lightwave it may or may not ever be released I just do not know, but if it's not it will be a real shame.
The first time I watched what it could do gave me the same feeling I got when I first saw FPrime for the first time (I am not compairing the two BTW) thinking yup this is going to change the way people work, in a good way :)

Wickster
04-14-2007, 01:54 AM
I still wait patiently. And save lots and lots of money. Please-please-please let it be affordable. :D

vashts
04-14-2007, 03:55 AM
there is a new image and some info on CGTalk thread about PIM:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?threadid=248382

vashts

Elmar Moelzer
04-14-2007, 05:41 AM
I dont think that PiM tools is vapourware, more of an example of featurecreep and the problem of funding.
Enki seems to be a perfectionist when it comes to his product and it is obvious that he is putting a lot of work into it, both from the comments of his betatesters and what we have been seeing of it so far. So he probably tries to add everything, he thinks might be useful and then what beta testers suggest, etc. And while he is doing so, he has to to live of something, so he does other jobs, etc, etc.
We (as the makers of VoluMedic) have been guilty of this too. VoluMedic took a loong time to make, way longer than it should have. One reason was that we were working on it on the side and had to do other projects to keep financing it. The other was the fear of not having everything in it that should be. Finally we decided to draw the line at at a certain amount of features and work towards release. It then still took a considerable amount of time to fix all the bugs and make it a well rounded and shipable product.
Which finally shipped in the end...
I hope Enki manages to get his product released one day and he does not make the mistake of getting cought up in other things to much.
Also and this might play into this somehow (and it is something we had to learn to), it is one thing to make a product and another to sell it. Building up a good sales network or a sales platform is not without problems either.
It took us 4 months from the time we had a final version to the point where we actually started selling it.
So, if Enki reads this: Start working on this early dude!
CU
Elmar

Lightwolf
04-14-2007, 05:46 AM
We (as the makers of VoluMedic) have been guilty of this too....
Oh man, replace VoluMedic with infiniMap and I'll sign that statement as well ;)

Good things take a while, and the worst thing that can happen is releasing an initial product that is either bug ridden or hard wot work with due to workflow issues. However great the underlying technology may be.

Cheers,
Mike

Elmar Moelzer
04-14-2007, 06:19 AM
Yeah and no matter how carefully you calculate, even the smallest features take much longer to implement than what it first seems like.
Then of course what happens when a software is in development for so long is that new technology becomes available and of course that needs to go in too. And then it happens that you carry arround a lot of old code with you that causes trouble, or you decide to rework the underlying architecture since you feel that your old code is ugly. Thing is that every software project is a learning process. You get better and all of a sudden a year has past and you realize that what you did a year ago is not good... from your new perspective(!) that is, as your skills have improved.
Now of course you want your product to be perfect so you go in and rewrite those parts and this causes a cascade of new issues and so on
I cant say how many times we completely rewrote huge parts of VoluMedic and then time passes and technology evolves and of course you want to stay up to date, so you add or improve even more about the product since you want it to be the best in all aspects of course.
Then at some point you have to realize that you might have been able to release the product a year earlier and that it would not have made that much of a difference for the enduser. Sometimes people would have rather had it earlier than having those features that you added during the past year. You can always make an update later on where you add more features and change the code and you can do this in a more relaxed way, if you know that your product is already out making money for you. The other advantage of postponing some things into an update, is that you will have more people out there giving you valuable feedback. You would be suprised what things you hear. E.g., our DICOM importer was pretty good already at the time of the VoluMedic 1.0 release (and we were very confident about it), but based on customer feedback we were able to improve it so much for 1.5.
I hope that Enki reads this and understands what I am trying to say: The most important thing about making a product is getting it out.
Once your product is out, take a break for some time, watch the sales, get feedback and then make a plan with things you want to improve for the next update. We already had a plan for 1.5 at the time of the release of 1.0, but the customer feedback made us reconsider some of this plan and shift some of the items in the plan arround a bit, postpone some things, add others earlier, etc.
A software product is never, ever finished. The final build of your software will be the one you make the day before you retire.
CU
Elmar

tonybliss
04-14-2007, 07:13 AM
correct :)

theo
04-14-2007, 07:49 AM
Theo there is no need to start insulting people, that's a rather rude atitude to have and no one is forcing anyone to buy it if/or when it is released.



OK, that was rude and I do apologize.

Problem is, software coders, in general, are terrible business people. The nature of coding a solution puts these people between a rock and hard place, I think most of us who have been using software for most of our lives understand this.

The key word here is SOLUTION. And if you are in the business of offering "solutions", which is what software exists for, then you better dang well understand that you are, in essence, offering a miniature golden egg.

Golden eggs make people money, golden eggs ease time burdens, golden eggs help transport ideas from abstraction to reality...just a few examples.

A miniature golden egg dangled on a string for a significant length of time is never a good thing. You don't dangle a solution in front of people and then expect them to love you when you can't deliver or the delivery takes a very long time.

Discretion is always the best policy. And beta testers, god love'em, should be kept on a very short leash.

Elmar Moelzer
04-14-2007, 08:02 AM
Oh and my post was not to critizise Enki in any way. I meant to just say that these things happen and they happened during the development cycles of products that actually came out and turned out to be anything else but vapourware.
So no, I dont think PiM tools is vapourware. I just think that Enki wants to deliver a great product and thats something that speaks for him, not against him. I am sure it is going to be great when it comes out. So people please try not to offend Enki here! I am sure he is working hard to make a great product for YOU!
And Enki, if you read this, please dont "overcook" your "dinner" , after a while it wont get any more tender, it will just loose its spice...
CU
Elmar

theo
04-14-2007, 08:15 AM
So no, I dont think PiM tools is vapourware.

The ONLY proof that this software is NOT vaporware will be its emergence.

Elmar Moelzer
04-14-2007, 09:42 AM
Well that could be said about any software package that has not been released yet, dont you think so?
For me I still stay with in dubio pro reo, but since this is not a court here...
CU
Elmar

theo
04-14-2007, 09:58 AM
Well that could be said about any software package that has not been released yet, dont you think so?
For me I still stay with in dubio pro reo, but since this is not a court here...
CU
Elmar

Absolutely. Excluding upgrades of already available software, of course. And even upgrades cannot take a significant amount of time without a PR hit.

And, this all has nothing to do with court, just reputation.

I'd say ZBrush was courting a dent on the rep.

Tzan
04-14-2007, 10:11 AM
Keeping with the idea of releasing something, then creating an update.

An ArchVis version could be released by deleting the motion capture/movie stuff.
This is probably the simplest type of release and it probably already does everything an arch viser needs, basic PIM + scripting. And I base those comments on absolutely no real information :)

jasonwestmas
04-14-2007, 10:45 AM
I don't know how long or how advanced the coding is on this PIM thing but 2-3 years of development is at least worth a 1.0 release no?

tonybliss
04-16-2007, 08:49 PM
some more recent info from cgsociety :)


http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=4330926&postcount=333

StereoMike
04-17-2007, 01:40 AM
Hey cool, after following some links I ended up at origami digital (they use pim aka Loco) and found out that it doesn't seem to violate NDA to say, that they used the system in connection with the halo movie (which is meanwhile unfortunately put on the back burner). They mention it in the news section.

mike

tonybliss
04-17-2007, 03:36 AM
danke
yeah thats co0l ... forgot to put that link too for those that may overlook it

http://www.origamidigital.com/

so yes guys its being used after all ;) and kicking to ... no viagra needed here for dead pimps ... I mean pim :D

cresshead
04-17-2007, 04:26 AM
as great and interesting as PIM tools look what is the 'point' of posting anything on forums etc?

1.it's closed a beta
2.there's no release date even vaguely set
3.there's no even vague price guide...would it be $150 or $15,000 or $150,000 to buy?
4.no lightwave plugin demo version to test.

at best you tease people's interest which would be not too bad if you deleiver anything at all within 3-4 months....but it's now over 24 months later and still the same teasing!

it's wearing so thin now that people are becoming hostile just at the mention of ''pim tools' so your marketing is now back firing on you in essence.

either something 'tangable' needs to happen right now or you'd be better served by laying low until you have something for people to evaluate.

Phil
04-17-2007, 05:01 AM
Just as long as it doesn't turn into a 'Duke Nukem Forever' deal, like the seemingly aborted Surface Effectors 2 update. I'm still pissed about that one. 5 years, 2 builds, and now absent developer (10 months since last reply and counting). It's not the money so much, but the principle of the thing. *mutter*

cresshead
04-17-2007, 05:14 AM
yeh i remember when trying to choose either max2.5+character studio or the then up n coming lightwave 6.0 i was told there's be 'quadroped' inbuilt into lightwave 6.0.....back then just as now i only 'go' with the tangable and not half baked promises and 'atomised translucent but sorta luminous particleware'
....[it doesn't exist as a product]

theo
04-17-2007, 06:35 AM
as great and interesting as PIM tools look what is the 'point' of posting anything on forums etc?

1.it's closed a beta
2.there's no release date even vaguely set
3.there's no even vague price guide...would it be $150 or $15,000 or $150,000 to buy?
4.no lightwave plugin demo version to test.

at best you tease people's interest which would be not too bad if you deleiver anything at all within 3-4 months....but it's now over 24 months later and still the same teasing!

it's wearing so thin now that people are becoming hostile just at the mention of ''pim tools' so your marketing is now back firing on you in essence.

either something 'tangable' needs to happen right now or you'd be better served by laying low until you have something for people to evaluate.

Yup- this is pretty much the reason why I tend to get "rude" when it comes to the subject of vaporwarz.

StereoMike
04-17-2007, 08:44 AM
It's getting somehow annoying: Show me a thread started by a PIM betatester or developer. There's _none_ here.
People ask about PIM, and the guys who know something tell everything they're allowed to. No teasing. It's funny how some of you tho get upset and hostile towards a tool they've never seen and towards people who try to help.
@ Cress & Theo: I wonder what you would think if nobody would answer to these "What's the status on PIM?" threads...
I guess it won't be frolicking. It would rather manifest your opinion of PIM being v-ware. So besides I like you two (from what I read in other threads), I think it's wasted time to try to satisfy your wishes regarding PIM information.
Hope you understand my point of you (and if not, calm down, it's just software)

mike

theo
04-17-2007, 08:48 AM
So besides I like you two (from what I read in other threads), I think it's wasted time to try to satisfy your wishes regarding PIM information.
Hope you understand my point of you (and if not, calm down, it's just software)

mike

Ah- we like you too Mike. Let's call it a day.

Edit: it's kind of hard NOT to like a guy who smears green stuff on his face and calls it an avatar- chuckle.

StereoMike
04-17-2007, 10:08 AM
*group hug*
Now I feel much better :)

cresshead
04-17-2007, 10:18 AM
:agree: :D :lwicon:

or...

:bangwall: :compbeati :cursin: :hammer: :twak: :gotpics:

hmm...let me think?....

okay....err...

:deal:

Erwin Zwart
04-19-2007, 03:27 AM
Pim IS vaporware ;)
I think the only way we can get to play with it is to get on to the beta team. Hey Enki make an open beta please! :)

or use somebody in the betateam... ;)
PIM is vaporware for the general public, I agree and I can say I pleaded for a release long ago, but Enki decided in his infinite wisdom that it is not ready yet and he is right.
Until the release try to ignore this sort of threads, but you can be sure development is going fast and steady and Enki is working fulltime on it.

roboanarchy
07-18-2008, 01:58 AM
Sorry, but I thought it was painfully obvious that my post was a merry jest, not a statement of fact, be it actually factual or merely an assumption of fact. :D

I need to add more smilies to my jesting posts. I think we need a big fat 512x512px smily with a wide, merry grin and maybe a jesters hat.

Yes, because the banana that is practically grimacing with laughter does not strongly enough indicate that you have a sense of humor.

Did I see you post on a forum about HGL?

cresshead
07-18-2008, 02:13 AM
so siggraph 2008...any sign of a publicly available product?
or has someone like avid bought it and put it on a shelf?

roboanarchy
07-18-2008, 02:15 AM
Seems like a project of this scale must take at least 5-7 years. I would say that in this case silence may be a good thing.

Sting
07-18-2008, 08:13 AM
There is a sneak peek of Duke Nukem Forever over half way through the following video (http://www.crackle.com/c/Jace_Hall/Jace_Hall_Ep_1_DUKE_NUKEM_FOREVER_SNEAK_PEEK_/2298717#ml=o%3d12%26fpl%3d297691%26fx%3d).

Verlon
07-21-2008, 01:00 AM
Until it actually shows up for sale on a shelf somewhere (as actual product, not pre-order), its Vaporware (yes, that includes your favorite application). I have seen things coming 'in about 2 weeks,' for YEARS, and some of those '2 week' timeframes are completely abandoned now.

I WANT to see this thing hit. I want PIM tools to sell like hotcakes.

But, it does have to actually be fore sale first.

Stooch
12-08-2008, 05:50 PM
i went to the origami website and saw some really bad facial capture.

might as well make a morph for opening and closing a mouth and animate it like a dummy for each syllable. is this the poetry in motion that is so hyped? looks like website marketing if you ask me ;) I wonder how much business origami got through all that interest.

jasonwestmas
12-08-2008, 06:06 PM
Probably ran out of mulla, too embarrasing to admit I guess.

Sensei
12-08-2008, 07:08 PM
PIM (as previewer) is dead, now you have TrueHair Preview.. ;)

Overlay mode (rendering ray-traced image to Layout viewports instead of custom window):
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_1.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_2.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_3.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_4.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_5.png

Stooch
12-08-2008, 07:53 PM
whats the frame rate?

also lets see a production scene...

jasonwestmas
12-08-2008, 10:56 PM
True hair preview? Where's the hair? Looks like fun!

cresshead
12-08-2008, 11:20 PM
fprime alternative maybe!

geothefaust
12-08-2008, 11:58 PM
Yeah man. I've watched all the videos. It looks a bit faster then fprime.

Sensei, you're really kicking *** there. Especially with displaying INSIDE a viewport? Hot damn son. That's what I'm talking about. You're pushing me to buying it, especially with your latest newsletter email regarding it. :D

Sensei
12-09-2008, 12:03 AM
Some transparency...

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_6.png



also lets see a production scene...

I am programmer, not 3d graphics artist.. That's the only one nice scene I have:

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_Preview_Overlay_7.png

It matches in 99% what LW F9 renders..

Sensei
12-09-2008, 12:20 AM
True hair preview? Where's the hair? Looks like fun!

You have discount 125 usd, because you bought TrueHair Styler 2 years ago..

Stooch
12-09-2008, 01:00 AM
Some transparency...


I am programmer, not 3d graphics artist.. That's the only one nice scene I have:

It matches in 99% what LW F9 renders..

can it do refraction?

also, does it support nodal shading?

Sensei
12-09-2008, 01:13 AM
can it do refraction?

Sure..



also, does it support nodal shading?

Sure... You saw it on the first picture.. Pom's Ambient Occlusion was used there, connected to Diffuse Shading in Node Editor..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_Preview_Ambient_Occlusion.mov

Stooch
12-09-2008, 01:15 AM
so the golden question. can you tell us why this brilliant piece of software isnt out yet?

Sensei
12-09-2008, 02:44 AM
Sensei, you're really kicking *** there. Especially with displaying INSIDE a viewport? Hot damn son. That's what I'm talking about. You're pushing me to buying it, especially with your latest newsletter email regarding it. :D

BTW, do you received EasySplit v3.2 and EasySpline v0.98?

walfridson
12-09-2008, 03:21 AM
PIM (as previewer) is dead, now you have TrueHair Preview.. ;)

How fast is the TrueHair Preview compared to PIM?

moussepipi2000
12-09-2008, 05:02 AM
how about radiosity ? MLT like fprime or implement of interpolated final gather with lightwave settings?

artstorm
12-09-2008, 06:07 AM
Hey Sensei,

This is starting to look excellent! Can't wait until I get a chance to play with it. :)

Will it be able to preview the nodes that does a preprocess pass when doing a F9 render? Like the SSS nodes for instance?

Sensei
12-09-2008, 06:21 AM
If node does pre-processing inside of Init() or NewTime() call-backs (which are executed on Layout Master context), it will kill interactivity permanently, because every single camera, light or object move will execute pre-process of node. For such nodes more advanced replacement is needed. None interactive renderer will work with them correctly.

Erwin Zwart
12-09-2008, 06:56 AM
PIMtools is not dead:

http://veggipaint.walen.se/

powered by Poetry in Motion


Truehairpreview looks like a great FPrime competitor, PIM never was or will be a LW render engine previewer, it is an interactive OpenGL realtime engine.

mav3rick
12-09-2008, 07:19 AM
well as far pim is no official released it is dead for community

jasonwestmas
12-09-2008, 07:20 AM
Yah, I see no "PIM" in that post. And yes, PIM was strictly OGL. What sensei is showing is previewer for Lightwave not OGL.

JeffrySG
12-09-2008, 07:53 AM
Yeah man. I've watched all the videos. It looks a bit faster then fprime.

Does anyone know if the videos are available for all to see? I would be curious to see them.

jasonwestmas
12-09-2008, 07:54 AM
You have discount 125 usd, because you bought TrueHair Styler 2 years ago..

Sounds like a generous offer. :)

meatycheesyboy
12-09-2008, 09:20 AM
Can someone from the natural history museum thread give Sensei a scene? I'm curious about this previewer but would really like to see some videos done with a far more complex scene.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91690

jasonwestmas
12-09-2008, 09:33 AM
hehe, Sensei, I'm sure you can download the lightwave content stuff no? Is there not more than one good scene in there with textures?

jasonwestmas
12-09-2008, 10:21 AM
Here's a nice lw9 scene. It's called quickroom68 and you can download it with the textures in registration downloads under lw9 content. I'd like to see how it looks in your previewer.

Stooch
12-10-2008, 02:38 AM
Here's a nice lw9 scene. It's called quickroom68 and you can download it with the textures in registration downloads under lw9 content. I'd like to see how it looks in your previewer.

me too.

Pavlov
12-10-2008, 03:10 AM
Sure.
This tool has big potential but "no GI" means "useless thing" to me, so let's see what this tool can do and how fast.

Paolo

Stooch
12-10-2008, 03:42 AM
i would use the tool specifically to aid texturing and real time feedback, lack of GI doesnt really bother me :)

I dont use fprime because on the typical scenes that i use, fprime doesnt always match the final render. if you use fprime to preview, its best to use fprime for the final render. but its not very useful for animation production.

now I would love to know if PIM previews voxels...

Pavlov
12-10-2008, 04:14 AM
i can agree, but if this tool has no reliable and fast GI solution, it will be more useful than Fprime to set materials IF you then render without GI into LW.
This never happens in my case, so no GI means i can make a little usage out if it.

Paolo

StereoMike
12-11-2008, 06:49 AM
@Stooch: PIM was never about voxels, but about a fast gpu based polygon engine. You could walk smoothly through scenes that LW was barely able to load.

mike

tyrot
12-11-2008, 12:13 PM
dear stereo mike

yes...even as a Legend PIM was great. I wrote here..128 Passes in 2 seconds...real time.. :)

and also...i believe at some point he decided to write Radiosity related stuff within PIM but then again..he had lots of on going projects at that time ..so he converted the whole thing something else...

Best

StereoMike
12-11-2008, 03:21 PM
yes, I saw his realtime IK solver, I think he wrote it on a mere afternoon and it worked nicely.
Or when he wrote that part of the program that allowed life motion capture to control the objects. I can't remember if it was two hours or two days (i think it was two hours) , but anyway, the guys he showed it were impressed.
those were the days...
mike