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gkbaxter
03-22-2007, 04:06 PM
Hi all, not Mac specific, but my platform of choice...
I live in the UK, so obviously the frame rate here is 25fps (PAL). I've just completed an animation render using 'HDTV 1920 x 1080' as the format. When loaded into Final Cut Pro, the frame rate is displayed as 30fps (NTSC).
So, am I correct in assuming that 'HDTV 1920 x 1080' is defaulted to NTSC? Would kinda make sense, giving Newteks' location.
If this is the case, I assume i cannot use this fomat for PAL, so what's the best alternative for 1080PAL?
Thanks,
Graham

avkills
03-22-2007, 07:27 PM
This link (http://www.adelphia.com/cable_entertainment/hdtv_details.cfm) should clear it all up.

HDTV has no NTSC or PAL.

-mark

Lightwolf
03-22-2007, 07:34 PM
This link (http://www.adelphia.com/cable_entertainment/hdtv_details.cfm) should clear it all up.

HDTV has no NTSC or PAL.

Erm, in a way it does as far as frame rates are concerned. The chart is missing all 50fps frame rates (50i or 50p) for example.

This one is more complete:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_television

Cheers,
Mike

avkills
03-22-2007, 08:23 PM
Erm, in a way it does as far as frame rates are concerned. The chart is missing all 50fps frame rates (50i or 50p) for example.

This one is more complete:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_television

Cheers,
Mike

Sheesh, I guess we will all have to suffer through more of this goofy format stuff some more. It must be because of the difference in power. Oh well.

I honestly thought they got rid of this nonsense with HD.

-mark

Lightwolf
03-22-2007, 08:29 PM
Sheesh, I guess we will all have to suffer through more of this goofy format stuff some more. It must be because of the difference in power. Oh well.

I honestly thought they got rid of this nonsense with HD.

-mark
At least we have the same res. Power doesn't make any difference anymore really, since all LCDs have 60Hz display refresh anyhow (currently, this may change).
The only thing that is really causing problems are the interlaced modes - since nobody is using interlaced displays to view HDTV. Unfortunatly 1080i seems to be what is used in broadcasts.

Cheers,
Mike

avkills
03-22-2007, 09:30 PM
Yes I am really bummed out that they even considered an interlaced format for HD.

-mark

Lightwolf
03-22-2007, 09:38 PM
Yes I am really bummed out that they even considered an interlaced format for HD.

-mark
Well, that's foresight and hindsight I suppose. The spec was created something like 15-20 years ago or so... so its not surprising they didn't think of LCDs.

Cheers,
Mike

gkbaxter
03-23-2007, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the replies folks. My main concern was that, when imported to Shake from FCP, the last 150 frames were greyed out. Turns out that Final Cut Pro already showed the HDTV frame rate as 30fps (900 frames @ 25fps = 36seconds, which is what I thought I had. 900 frames @ 30fps = 30seconds, which is what I've got. Re-render time I guess)

Graham

avkills
03-23-2007, 10:16 AM
Is your lightwave scene 25fps?

-mark

toby
03-23-2007, 02:22 PM
Yes I am really bummed out that they even considered an interlaced format for HD.

-mark
It still makes sense for low-bandwidth broadcast, and the HD-DVD format, which can't store as much data as a 1080p movie will take, without a lot of compression. Blu-Ray is 1080p however, stores more data on a disc, I hope it wins!

gkbaxter
03-24-2007, 05:56 AM
Re: avkills
Yes, my scene was 25fps, but it appears that the HDTV 1920 x 1080 format outputs at 30fps only

avkills
03-24-2007, 09:15 AM
Re: avkills
Yes, my scene was 25fps, but it appears that the HDTV 1920 x 1080 format outputs at 30fps only

If you render it out as a image sequence, you can then use After Effects or QuickTime Pro to convert to a HDTV movie format @ the suggested Frame Rate.

I am assuming here that you rendered out as a QuickTime movie directly from LW?

-mark

gkbaxter
03-24-2007, 09:45 AM
Re: Avkills
You assume correctly chum. Thanks for that :)

loki74
03-25-2007, 05:00 PM
It still makes sense for low-bandwidth broadcast, and the HD-DVD format, which can't store as much data as a 1080p movie will take, without a lot of compression. Blu-Ray is 1080p however, stores more data on a disc, I hope it wins!

Amen, brother!

avkills
03-25-2007, 06:22 PM
Just use 720p. ;)

-mark

toby
03-25-2007, 06:46 PM
aaaah, 720p is so 2005.
:D

avkills
03-25-2007, 08:43 PM
:cry:

dsol
03-26-2007, 06:21 AM
It still makes sense for low-bandwidth broadcast, and the HD-DVD format, which can't store as much data as a 1080p movie will take, without a lot of compression. Blu-Ray is 1080p however, stores more data on a disc, I hope it wins!

Only some blue ray films are encoded in 1080p - not all. And HD-DVD can and does support 1080p as well, it's just that 1080p IS NOT PART OF THE HD SPEC - it's a proprietary Sony thing. And the data rate for 30P footage is the same as 60i. I assume when sony refer to 1080p, they mean 1080p/60fps (or 50fps for PAL).

Blue ray has moderately higher capacity than HD-DVD, though that advantage may be negated by the new triple-layer HD-DVDs coming out. So far, Sony's had real difficulty creating multi-layer BlueRay discs.

toby
03-26-2007, 10:33 PM
Only some blue ray films are encoded in 1080p - not all. And HD-DVD can and does support 1080p as well, it's just that 1080p IS NOT PART OF THE HD SPEC - it's a proprietary Sony thing.Well are *any* HD-DVD movies recorded at 1080p? Are they going to get rid of interlacing?

And the data rate for 30P footage is the same as 60i. I assume when sony refer to 1080p, they mean 1080p/60fps (or 50fps for PAL).Why would you need 1080 progressive at 60fps? I just assumed it was 30fps.

Blue ray has moderately higher capacity than HD-DVD,
It's 50% higher isn't it?

though that advantage may be negated by the new triple-layer HD-DVDs coming out. So far, Sony's had real difficulty creating multi-layer BlueRay discs.
Yea that's what the HD-DVD side says. Sony says it'll be ready in less than a year. So who knows? I've also read about 4-layer 200gb blu-ray discs in prototype. You can never judge by the technology they claim until it comes out. I'm just judging by what's available now, and by which companies are involved (basically whether I like them or not).

Lightwolf
03-27-2007, 12:51 AM
From my understanding there are three standardized 1080p modes that are part of the initial HD spec: 1080p24, 1080p25 and 1080p30 (the last two using the same data rate as 1080i50 and 1080i60).
Progressive modes with a frame rate higher than 30fps progressive are not specced yet.
And since 1080p24 _is_ a valid HD mode, I makes me wonder weven more about some of the industries decisions for delivery modes.
Great, let's take a movie at 24fps, convert to 30fps then to 60i back down to 24fps using an inverse telecine then speed up to 25p/50i for PAL countries... :eek:
And best of all, take progressive material, interlace it for broadcast while changing the frame rate and then let the decoder use a high quality hardware based de-interlacer re-create an image that is almost as good as the original one.
Honestly, if a customer would ask me for that kind of workflow I'd shoot them - but this happens on a daily basis on HD consumer equipment...

Cheers,
Mike

dsol
03-27-2007, 06:33 AM
Honestly, if a customer would ask me for that kind of workflow I'd shoot them - but this happens on a daily basis on HD consumer equipment...

Amen to that, brother :) HD was/is the opportunity to finally standardise TV formats across the world. Instead we still have the old PAL/NTSC framerates hanging around - including whiffy 59.94 fps NTSC (non-integer framerates = pain). Why?! for the love of god! :cursin: