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Exception
03-19-2007, 03:02 PM
Any way how to do this?

It's not one of the standard fades, nor an option in the cross fade...

I thought that this was a basic transition?

Adam_LightPlay
03-19-2007, 08:03 PM
What is an Additive Fade?
I haven't heard that term. If you describe it a little, maybe we can tell you how to do it.

cholo
03-20-2007, 02:03 AM
Nope, no additive fades. Use After Effects if you really need it. Would be a cool thing to have though. Maybe it can be built using the DVEbuilder.

Exception
03-20-2007, 07:47 AM
Oh boy. No additive fades, no layer multiplications, no motion blur, no .hdr support... and that's just from one hour of trying to work with it.

SBowie
03-20-2007, 07:58 AM
Oh boy. No additive fades, no layer multiplications, no motion blur, no .hdr support... and that's just from one hour of trying to work with it.On the other hand, it does have some cool stuff that is seldom if ever seen elsewhere. But on your points:


additive fade - I have seen this requested previously in the years since the appearance of VT[2], ... once or twice. A wishlist item to add, then.
motion blur - a nice idea, another good wishlist item, and a common feature in compositors ... but is it really so very common in NLE's that its absence (esp. in a ver. 1.0 product) is an oddity?
layer 'multiplications' - see above
.hdr support - I am pretty sure there is a thread elsewhere that suggests this is coming.

Not bad ideas, any of these - but not in the nature of showstoppers for most of us, either.

Exception
03-20-2007, 08:32 AM
additive fade - I have seen this requested previously in the years since the appearance of VT[2], ... once or twice. A wishlist item to add, then.

I've always seen this as the second most important fade. 1) Cross fade, 2) Additive fade. Could even be a tickbox in the crossfade options.
It's used in production all the time where the scenes are bright.


motion blur - a nice idea, another good wishlist item, and a common feature in compositors ... but is it really so very common in NLE's that its absence (esp. in a ver. 1.0 product) is an oddity?

VirtualDub has it. I mean, that's a free program that can hardly becalled anything but a 'utility'. All other video editors have it... it's vital to repair flicker damage from Lightwave renders, and smooth them out. As Speededit is bundled with LW now, marketed as the ideal companion and such, it might as well do easy stuff like this. All it needs to do is add the previous frame at 50%, the one before at 25%, and so on, perhaps with an intensity level.


layer 'multiplications' - see above

Wouldn't know how to do interesting titling otherwise.
Isn't that one of the core purposes of an editor? NLE or not, it's an editor. People will do titling in it. Without transfer modes, what are you going to do? Do everything with alpha channels? Thats restrictive, cumbersome, error prone and very inflexible.


.hdr support - I am pretty sure there is a thread elsewhere that suggests this is coming.

I've been told the display of .hdr's will be disabled to prevent crashing. If Speededit's core is not 96 bits, then it'll prbably never come.



Not bad ideas, any of these - but not in the nature of showstoppers for most of us, either.

Define *most of us*?
Anyone using LW with Speededit as a toolset together will get hit by glaring omissions with most obvious actions. Very poor format support, very limited toolset and the interfacing between the two programs is nonexistant, to the point where even lw's standard uncompressed output is problematic, image sequences do not load and so on. Several months before Speededit was released there was a thread on image sequences. It was made clear by everyone that they're used a lot. The developers seemed to be completely surprised by this. This both tells me that there is no attention being spent in the interoperability of software, even the NT programs amongst eachother, nor that there is a very good field testing framework of the software. Perhaps a too small / narrow field set of beta testers.
Software is never used in just one way, but this software is specifically marketed as a Lightwave companion. It's not.

SBowie
03-20-2007, 09:05 AM
All other video editors have it... it's vital to repair flicker damage from Lightwave renders, and smooth them out."Flicker damage"? Perhaps you mean interlace flicker. While you could add moblur directly in LW afaik, and interlace issues shouldn't really be a problem with correct fielding, apart from thin horizontal lines, having this an a filter would not be unwelcome for dealing with the latter. There is a somewhat similar live effect in the VT switcher fx, which could perhaps be adapted to the task.


People will do titling in it. Without transfer modes, what are you going to do? Do everything with alpha channels?Strange as it seems to appears to you, an awful lot of people use alpha for this sort of thing all the time, finding it very easy and using transfer modes rarely, and only then for the varied aesthetic results they can offer ... seldom for simple composition.



I've been told the display of .hdr's will be disabled to prevent crashing. If Speededit's core is not 96 bits, then it'll probably never come.I'm not aware of any common NLE's that are internally 96 bit, but as I said elswewhere, I've not been keeping up lately. I'd be pleased to see a list.


Define *most of us*?Sure - most of use here. :)

Exception
03-20-2007, 09:26 AM
"Flicker damage"? Perhaps you mean interlace flicker. While you could add moblur directly in LW afaik, and interlace issues shouldn't really be a problem with correct fielding, apart from thin horizontal lines, having this an a filter would not be unwelcome for dealing with the latter. There is a somewhat similar live effect in the VT switcher fx, which could perhaps be adapted to the task.

No, flicker damage. AA chatter, bump map glimmer, Adaptive Sampling mismatches, grain jumps, radiosity jitter.. that sort of thing.



Strange as it seems to appears to you, an awful lot of people use alpha for this sort of thing all the time, finding it very easy and using transfer modes rarely, and only then for the varied aesthetic results they can offer ... seldom for simple composition.

It doesn't seem 'strange', but like I said, it's more work, less flexible, more error prone and has much less application options. As I said in another thread, Premiere has had it for 10 years, PRemiere Pro has it, Finac Cut Pro has it, Avid has it... for a reason. 'Simple composition' is not what Speededit is restricted to, right?


Sure - most of use here. :)

As far as I can see the Speededit forum is tiny compared to the Lightwave ones, so if you want to look at it that way, it might be reversed :beerchug:

SBowie
03-20-2007, 09:30 AM
Well, I'm sure NewTek will be pleased for your feedback on how to make SE more appealing to the LW crowd. Thanks!

cholo
03-20-2007, 01:59 PM
EXC:

1. If by "motion blur" you mean frame blending, nothing's stopping you from doing it manually, just duplicate your clip, turn overlay on and change the alpha value, repeat and rinse. :)

2. Yes, transfer modes are present in many other NLE's (FCP, Premiere), but their motion control is restricted to linear (YUCK) which to me is equally a showstopper.

3. An NLE is not to be confused as a compositor replacement. By the same token, you COULD edit in After Effects, but I bet you'd go crazy before finishing the first project. If SpeedEDIT were aiming for that, the list should include: lens flares, DOF blur, spline masking, 3D layering, ALL transfer modes, distortion filters, motion tracking, noise reduction, matte tools, morphing, directional blurs, motion blurring, just to name a few...

SpeedEDIT is an editor. It's what you use to edit your story after your shots are finalized. It's what you use to cut your final master in. It also does audio and yet it's not a replacement for a dedicated protools suite. It lacks midi and a ton of other features needed for complex audio production. It handles some basic compositing the same way it handles basic audio, this is not a bad thing. Do you think they did the compositing for Spiderman inside AVID (or whatever software they did use for editing)?

Exception
03-20-2007, 04:08 PM
I know what an editor is.

The transfer modes in Premiere and FCP work just fine. FYI those are also editors, and are capable of the things I lack in Speededit.

Speededit is a competitor to Premiere and FCP, but it fails on various accounts. I've said enough about this now. I'll wait for the next update.

Lightwolf
03-26-2007, 07:19 AM
I've always seen this as the second most important fade. 1) Cross fade, 2) Additive fade.
Almost:
1) Cross Fade
2) Dip to Colour (any colours, not just black ;) ).
3) Additive Fade :D

Yes, that should be there. And I know 2) can be faked using a solid colour and fading it, not quite the same as a real fade though.

Cheers,
Mike

KiloWatkins
03-26-2007, 10:35 AM
3. An NLE is not to be confused as a compositor replacement. By the same token, you COULD edit in After Effects, but I bet you'd go crazy before finishing the first project. If SpeedEDIT were aiming for that, the list should include: lens flares, DOF blur, spline masking, 3D layering, ALL transfer modes, distortion filters, motion tracking, noise reduction, matte tools, morphing, directional blurs, motion blurring, just to name a few...

Cholo

As your are pointing the LW crowd in another thinking on what they should be doing in LW, Compositing in Tedit/Spedit is from many sources, Oasis/Mirage, LW.tga's, SpeedEDIT PC feed, Camera's to an output recorder on another PC, in my daily world.

I do like PNG32's from LW, fwiw, but run through MirageHDV for layering and comp. befor hitting the SPEdit timeline. The LW community seems to not want to understand, Newtek1.X will always come their way.

POV

Lightwolf
03-26-2007, 10:46 AM
3. An NLE is not to be confused as a compositor replacement.
While that is true, you could also argue that it should not be a CG either... or an audio editor. On the other hand there are cases where SE fails as an editor (great, we have uselessly embarassing glitzy 3D wipes but no additive fade).
Spline masking/matte tools are increasingly common in editors for example, as is colour correction (which isn't am editing tool either btw) - noise reduction on the other hand makes a lot of sense when finishing for media encoding purposes.
Which just goes to show that any editor is beyond what a simple editor should do, they just have a different emphasis on the additional tools.


I do like PNG32's from LW, fwiw, but run through MirageHDV for layering and comp. befor hitting the SPEdit timeline.
See, there you go, you use a paint tool for compositing ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Exception
03-27-2007, 03:20 PM
(great, we have uselessly embarassing glitzy 3D wipes but no additive fade).

Oh yes, my thoughts exactly. It seems as if the guys writing up the features for SE are not actually out there editing video.

To add to this, the whole 'an NLE is not supposed to do this' is moot. We are looking for expansion of functionality, not the narrowing of it. Adobe corporation is fantasticly good at isolating features and splitting them off into new programs (adobe Streamline anyone?). Illustrator and Indesign should never have been 2 separate programs, for instance.
Now, Adobes video editor does all the things I find sincerely missing in SE. Additive fade, yes, and 10 more useful fades instead of some newspaper flying-off joke which you will use once in your existance, and then regret it immediately after. It also has limited sound modification capabilities, as it is rediculous to have to go out and buy an audio editing program to do something as simple as speedup without pitchup, or EQ-ing. Same goes for multiplication of layers, motion blurring, and so on. Why are these things 'not supposed to be in an NLE', but color correction is? Your personal workflow is not the way everyone else is supposed to work with these tools. In order to be a valid alternative for FCP or Premiere Pro, SE needs to be able to do most things they do. As of now, it does the bare minimum, if at that.

And the whole 'update' argument is fine, but if you call something 1.0, it means it's not 0.9, and usually means it's finished. It's being sold as complete, and we criticise it as complete. And of course we look ahead to the next versions, but if we do not give feedback, how can we expect changes to occur?
Criticism is hardly ever mean to be a negative gesture, if we were really upset, we wouldn't even care and just go back to FCP or something. But we do, and hence we voice our opinion in the hope that it will be useful.

Exception
03-27-2007, 03:37 PM
Cresshead,

To give you an impression of the complexity and workflow I'm currently doing in SE for the LW 9.2 demo video, here's a screenshot.
And seriously, besides the omissions, it really IS a very nice editing program.

http://www.except.nl/overig/uploads/SE_project.jpg

SBowie
03-27-2007, 03:51 PM
Criticism is hardly ever mean to be a negative gesture, if we were really upset, we wouldn't even care and just go back to FCP or something. But we do, and hence we voice our opinion in the hope that it will be useful.It may be that is is "hardly ever meant to be a negative gesture", but sometimes hyperbole makes it seem so. I think everyone values a thoughtful critique and worthwhile feature requests. Sometimes, though, these are presented in a manner that - to exaggerate myself just a bit - seems more like 'omg, this is complete crap, and anyone who hasn't already seen that is a complete idiot.'

Somewhere in the middle, there is a sweet spot ...

Exception
03-27-2007, 06:03 PM
'omg, this is complete crap, and anyone who hasn't already seen that is a complete idiot.'

I don't recall having ever said anything even remotely in that kind of ballpark, and neither has LightWolf.
May I quote myself from the post just above yours?

"And seriously, besides the omissions, it really IS a very nice editing program."

cholo
03-27-2007, 06:54 PM
"And seriously, besides the omissions, it really IS a very nice editing program."

:agree: People don't realize how powerful SpeedEDIT is until they really start pushing the envelope. NewTek should demonstrate how fast it really is with a fully loaded timeline, not just a couple of clips here and there. It's my personal experience that when you start stacking many layers (6, 8, even 10 high) nothing compares to NewTek's NLEs. I still remember the rush from the first time I rendered out a finished program in VT and saw it rendering faster than real time :)

ted
03-28-2007, 12:39 AM
I don't recall having ever said anything even remotely in that kind of ballpark,

To be honest, I thought that WAS what you have been "implying" all along.
Enough so that when I read your "compliment" of SE, I had to re-read who said it.

Just goes to show, what we write can be interpreted diferently then our intent.
I'm glad you are seeing the benefits as well.

Exception
03-28-2007, 12:56 AM
To be honest, I thought that WAS what you have been "implying" all along.


You might have missed this too then:

"Now, if none of these things bother you, it's probably the fastest workflow available, some things are very smart and it IS very very fast, much more pleasurable to work with than either FCP or Premiere Pro, it feels much more professional, the interface is smart and well thought out, and I would say, really easy to learn. Just glance over the introduction of the manual and you're on your way. There's a lot of things that you need to get used to because they're different, but they're different for a reason, and that is because they work faster. The storyboard editing mode is fantastic, simply a godsend."

TWC
05-07-2007, 04:18 PM
Not to reveal my lack of knowledge, but can we go back to Adam_LightPlay's question of what is an Additive Fade? I'm just really curious at this point.

pox
05-07-2007, 11:30 PM
http://www.northernarapaho.com/files/images/sandcreektimeline.preview.jpg
Over 8 hours of HDV clips edited down to a half hour documentary in about 10 hours. (4 of the hours editing were on ride back from the event.) We used 2 Sony HDV cameras the Z1U and A1U. There were a few hours of speeches so I synced them up on the time line and just cut between the two. Maybe I can buy bob's muti-cam plug-in for next time and speed up the editing even more.

Goldenthesarge
06-29-2008, 08:46 AM
I'm confused, (I'm a director, not an editor), by additive mix do you mean a mix transition where the luminance values of the first and second clip are combined?


If so why the hell would you want to use it! It's tantamount to a white flash, the edit coverall used by media students who didn't plan their shoot or do a paper edit.

Honestly, it looks awful............

Quiet1onTheSet
06-29-2008, 07:45 PM
...I still remember the rush from the first time I rendered out a finished program in VT and saw it rendering faster than real time :)You and me both, Cholo.

Even without "smart-rendering" -- how'd they *do* that?!

Q1
:thumbsup:

Quiet1onTheSet
06-29-2008, 08:17 PM
... it is rediculous to have to go out and buy an audio editing program to do something as simple as speedup without pitchup, or EQ-ing. Same goes for multiplication of layers, motion blurring, and so on.
Honestly, although you'd likely want everything you could possibly want, all in one tight package and call it a "video editing program" -- you sound like a good candidate for adding Sony Vegas Pro 8, Exception.

That app works marvelously for SpeedEDIT owners, as an adjunct tool that'll hammer out every one of the items you have listed above, save Audio EQ'ing, which, by the way, SpeedEDIT does admirably, if I'm not mistaken.

(Tee-hee! Come to think of it -- Vegas was originally an "audio editing program", now wasn't it?)

Q1
:hey:

Dufusyte
06-30-2008, 08:44 AM
I notice that when someone is critical of SpeedEdit, the backlash often includes ad hominem arguments such as, "you did not say it nicely" or "we think you are rude" or something along those lines.

In debate, an ad hominem attack is a sign that someone has run out of relevant arguments, so they just start attacking their opponent on a personal level.

I find it odd that a technical discussion should be diverted to petty personal attacks, yet it often happens here.

billmi
06-30-2008, 09:09 AM
It's probably worth noting, since this is an older thread that was revived, that SpeedEdit does now include an Additive Dissolve, Cross Fade, Dip To Color and straight Dissolve. They are found in the filebin, under the effects tab in the video effects folder.

Dufusyte, I think you will find these types of responses primarily on threads where wide sweeping statements similar to "Speed Edit doesn't do XYZ, therefore it is useless," or threads where the critic drawing attention has made such statements previously.

There are a lot of threads in this forum, where users talk about features they would like to see in SpeedEdit, or how their work-flow is hampered by a lack of a certain feature, in which there are no complaints about how the criticism was delivered.

SBowie
06-30-2008, 09:17 AM
Rudeness never really serves a useful purpose, afaics, whichever side of an argument first gives in to it (I find it odd, too, that people so often cannot express constructive criticism comment without insults.) Wherever it first appears, it almost always brings an immediate and negative response - which always distracts from the actual points being made (and supports my first statement.)

As tempting as they are, 'smart-alecky', rude, and insulting comments are just plain counter-productive. They ensure that a point that might be both valid and valuable is sacrificed in the flames on the altar of ego. What a treat when mature professionals refrain from self-aggrandizement and pejoratives to state their viewpoint, suggestion, gripe or question respectfully.

joseburgos
07-14-2008, 06:56 PM
Almost:
1) Cross Fade
2) Dip to Colour (any colours, not just black ;) ).
3) Additive Fade :D

Yes, that should be there. And I know 2) can be faked using a solid colour and fading it, not quite the same as a real fade though.

Cheers,
Mike

Just to bring the thread current, there is a Dip to Color in the effects, transitions folder.
Once added, just open control tree to change the color you want to dip too.

There is also additive dissolve in the same transitions folder and if you look at the control tree, Additive Dissolve, Cross fade and Dip to Color, are one in the same video effect.
All you need do is check off the one you want when you add the effect to the project via the control tree.

Take care,

archijam
07-15-2008, 02:51 AM
Rudeness never really serves a useful purpose, afaics, whichever side of an argument first gives in to it (I find it odd, too, that people so often cannot express constructive criticism comment without insults.) Wherever it first appears, it almost always brings an immediate and negative response - which always distracts from the actual points being made (and supports my first statement.)

As tempting as they are, 'smart-alecky', rude, and insulting comments are just plain counter-productive. They ensure that a point that might be both valid and valuable is sacrificed in the flames on the altar of ego. What a treat when mature professionals refrain from self-aggrandizement and pejoratives to state their viewpoint, suggestion, gripe or question respectfully.

Perhaps you could quote the comments you are referring to.

SBowie
07-15-2008, 01:07 PM
It's a broad comment, not intended to single out anyone or any comment (particularly in this thread).

Someone (I forget who, would have to scroll back a couple pages, and it really doesn't matter anyway) was observing that they feel constructive criticism tends to provoke a negative response. I find it equally true that some others respond critically whenever someone posts complimentary remarks. For myself, I'm absolutely fine with either both criticism or compliments - and of the two, the former is likely the more valuable ... but I am completely convinced the discussion is far more likely to actually achieve something valuable when rudeness plays no part.

Exception
07-20-2008, 05:04 PM
... but I am completely convinced the discussion is far more likely to actually achieve something valuable when rudeness plays no part.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any rudeness from any party.

SBowie
07-20-2008, 05:42 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't see any rudeness from any party.I didn't say there was, in this thread at least. Someone else brought it up (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=716050&postcount=27), and I merely agreed (that it is not helpful). I also added my own two cents, which is that the point is equally true regardless which side of any particular controversy stoops to it.)

Exception
07-20-2008, 06:22 PM
-> :beerchug: