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MysteryMonkey
03-16-2007, 05:21 PM
It appears that real cinema quality graphics may soon be possible in gaming. I don't know anything about gaming but it is something I'm interested in learning more about. Anyway, I thought this might be of interest to some of you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6457951.stm

I wonder if it might have potential for rendering out animations too?

StereoMike
03-16-2007, 06:19 PM
The next step will be "Crysis". The pictures I have seen looked awesome.

mike

Captain Obvious
03-16-2007, 08:47 PM
That article made me depressed. I hate it when clueless people write about tech. :(

MysteryMonkey
03-16-2007, 09:07 PM
That article made me depressed. I hate it when clueless people write about tech. :(

So are you saying that the main point of what the reporter has reported is inaccurate and misleading?

Captain Obvious
03-17-2007, 02:52 PM
So are you saying that the main point of what the reporter has reported is inaccurate and misleading?
Not as such. Just that he's a dunce.

Steamthrower
03-18-2007, 08:29 AM
Right, the reporter acted as if raytracing was this magical new invention. Having only used his computer to open up Word, he never knew it's been around for years. Of course once he did have to venture into the Program Files directory. When it said "These files are hidden and should not be modified" it scared the crap out of him.

The point that cracked me up was when he mentioned that both Pixar and Peter Jackson use raytracing. Well duh. Guess what, I do too, a humble web design/multimedia techie.

MysteryMonkey
03-18-2007, 09:42 AM
. . . The point that cracked me up was when he mentioned that both Pixar and Peter Jackson use raytracing. Well duh. Guess what, I do too, a humble web design/multimedia techie.

I am well aware of what raytracing is too, but I think you missed the point of the article. When he mentioned Pixar it was to give the general public an idea, a familiar reference point if you will, of what raytracing does (or can do) for an image, animation or game. I imagine if you were to mention raytracing to someone outside of 3D modeling and animation community they wouldn't know what you were talking about, and you might resort to bring up something they may be familiar with like movies made by Pixar or Peter Jackson as an example.

Its funny how two people can read the same thing and one sees the potential advance in programing and technology presented, and the other misses the point because they are too busy being hyper critical.

I passed the link onto people on the forum because I thought at least a few might be interested in learning more, nothing more, nothing less.

Take it or leave it. It makes no difference to me.

Captain Obvious
03-18-2007, 10:45 AM
I really doubt ray tracing was the key innovation for the CG in Lord of the Rings, and Pixar typically avoid ray tracing when they can. He could've thought of better examples.

Why would I get all giddy with anticipation? Ray tracing on the GPU is old news. Call me again when it actually produces nice results.

MysteryMonkey
03-18-2007, 11:26 AM
I really doubt ray tracing was the key innovation for the CG in Lord of the Rings, and Pixar typically avoid ray tracing when they can. He could've thought of better examples.

We must be reading different articles because nowhere did I see ray tracing being mentioned as a key innovation (or just a regular ol' innovation for that fact) in Lord of the Rings. I don't even see the word innovation being mentioned in the article at all.

As far as Pixar avoiding ray tracing I find it interesting there is a press release by Pixar back in 2002 https://renderman.pixar.com/products/news/prman11.html where ray tracing is mentioned. Granted it doesn't actually say Pixar uses ray tracing, but it would be odd for them to produce software that incorporates ray tracing if they didn't find it useful.

What is "innovative" here is the algorithms being developed. ". . . Professor Philipp Slusallek and co-workers from the University of Saarland have developed a series of ray-tracing algorithms that promise to make it much easier to use the technique." One would think that would be obvious to someone with your moniker.

Captain Obvious
03-18-2007, 11:50 AM
Film studio Pixar uses ray-tracing to produce the images for its cartoons and Peter Jackson used the technique in the Lord of the Rings to make special effects look convincing.
My point is that it's not ray tracing that makes the look convincing. It's the artistic and technical skill of the artists, and that's it.


As for Pixar & ray tracing, I'm sure they do use it. But when possible, they avoid it. And with a good reason: tracing rays is slow.

Steamthrower
03-18-2007, 01:01 PM
I really don't have a problem with what the reporter said in the article itself. The point of the article was that raytracing is now being implemented in games.

Well, nice. But this reporter obviously (pun not intended) didn't know anything about the graphics industry. What gave me the laughy feeling was the pseudo-technical style with which he wrote.

Really, I know style when I see it, and I know fake when I see it. I am a published novelist. It was a ''filler article'' on a slow news day.

Captain Obvious
03-18-2007, 01:30 PM
What gave me the laughy feeling was the pseudo-technical style with which he wrote.

Really, I know style when I see it, and I know fake when I see it. I am a published novelist. It was a ''filler article'' on a slow news day.
Agreed.

MysteryMonkey
03-18-2007, 09:58 PM
. . . . Really, I know style when I see it, and I know fake when I see it. I am a published novelist. . . . .

Ha Ha Ha Ha! ROFL!!!!

I can't believe anyone said that!

Having published a "novel" gives you the ability to know style? That's all it takes to know style is being published? LOL

It might interest you to know then that Mark Ward has at least 2 published books to his credit. Therefore using your logic he knows style himself.

Look if you don't like what Mr Ward said in his article that's fine, but at least don't puff up your chest making silly comments to raise your level of "credibility" It doesn't fly with me and it probably doesn't fly too many other people now.

I needed a good laugh this weekend. Thanks!

StereoMike
03-18-2007, 10:10 PM
Wow, hot discussion going on here...

It's a BBC article, what did you expect? If they (or even Reuters) write something about nuclear power plants, cold fusion, genetic engineering or computer graphics it will ever be just a small and easy text for the masses.
You didn't thought, what they wrote about that cloned sheep Dolly was all you need to know to clone a sheep, did you?
I could understand your exictement if it was an article on cgtalk or 3d world, but BBC...?


mike

Steamthrower
03-18-2007, 10:12 PM
I needed a good laugh this weekend. Thanks!

Hey, you're welcome. I wasn't trying to brag, I probably shouldn't even have written it.

I'm not saying that Mark Ward doesn't know style. I'm not even saying that he's not a good writer. I'm sure he is or he wouldn't write articles for the BBC. But what I am saying is that the very style he writes is pseudo-technical.

I regret even posting in this thread. I was totally happy this weekend and am still totally happy. I was just voicing my opinion. Sometimes others just don't get it.

MysteryMonkey
03-18-2007, 10:41 PM
. . . . It's a BBC article, what did you expect? . . . .


I agree Mike.

If anyone is still interested in this topic after all the boring discussion above you could go to the professor's website.

Professor Philipp Slusallek http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~slusallek/

I think its interesting but I guess maybe I'm the only one.

cheers

ShawnStovall
03-19-2007, 05:59 PM
It seems to me as though he is describing radiosity. Do other people see this or am I just a n00b?:)

Lamont
03-20-2007, 09:01 PM
And with a good reason: tracing rays is slow.Depends on the program ;).

Captain Obvious
03-21-2007, 05:46 AM
Depends on the program ;).
I know that was tongue-in-cheek or whatever, but no, it doesn't. Yes, some renderers trace rays faster than others, but it's still slow.

MysteryMonkey
03-22-2007, 05:16 PM
Depends on the program ;).

Do you know more than your saying? :hey:

It seems to me that the email notification I got with your message in it is different than what you have on the forum. Kind of like maybe you edited your original posting after you had a moment to think about what you had said. Is there something in the works that may make real time raytrace rendering more of a reality than some may think?

Lamont
03-22-2007, 05:27 PM
Yeah, I pretty much double posted. It's in the other forum.

MysteryMonkey
03-22-2007, 05:51 PM
Yeah, I pretty much double posted. It's in the other forum.

I see.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65608

So it isn't a bunch of hot air as some would like to think.

Very interesting :thumbsup:

Lamont
03-23-2007, 10:22 AM
Yeah, a lot of people are going for things like that. But the place I consult for is the farthest along that I know of. I was using that app to do GI and photon gathering/casting when the top card was a GF4.

jin choung
03-23-2007, 10:37 AM
wow.

REAL TIME ray tracing? at 60fps?! i am down! if pixar avoided raytracing in their reyes rendering because of how much time it took, well, it looks like that reason is gonna go bye bye.

though i think they've had hardware accelerated ray tracing on specialized nvidia cards for a while, it'll be good to see this stuff become so mainstream that gaming cards will be able to do it. it's very very good for us.

just hope that lw's renderer is modularized enough now so that we can plug and play new methodologies and drivers when it becomes available.

jin

D33P BLACK
03-26-2007, 06:12 AM
This isn't about the particular article you guys are discussing, but has any one seen the tests for the euphoria engine? It's freaking ridiculous. As I said in a prevous post some time ago, the days of low poly models and image mapping in games is rapidly on the out. Personnally I'm for it. I like building projects where poly counts are inconsequential. DX10 baby. :jam:

Lamont
03-26-2007, 07:57 AM
Polycounts are never the first issue, it's texture usage.

jeremyhardin
04-05-2007, 06:35 AM
Interesting as the topic is, I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought the article itself was a bit annoying.

Also, I get to use renderman at work and it's quite clever in it's non ray tracing tasks. So I read through the docs and the papers at http://graphics.pixar.com to find out more about it.
Renderman didn't avoid ray tracing just because of rendertime. They avoided it because of the physical ramifications for raytracing scenes of their complexity. Here are some of the problems that caused them to avoid ray tracing: Scene geometry is far too large to fit in memory in tessellated form.
Many surfaces are displacement-mapped.
There may be thousands of textures (too many to fit all in memory at full resolution) to control reflection parameters and displacements.
There can be thousands of light sources.
All illumination and surface reflection characteristics are controlled by fully programmable, complex shaders.
In addition, images are typically rendered at high resolution with
motion blur and depth of field. Furthermore, no spatial or temporal
aliasing is acceptable: no staircase effects, “crawlies”, popping, etc.
So when bucket rendering without ray-tracing, a render node can just render a grid of 32 x 32 pixels and only load into memory the geometry, shaders, images, and relevant lights for that 32 x 32 square. For ray tracing though, this wouldn't work because the geometry could be reflecting or refracting geometry/textures/lights outside the 32x32 square, which also could be reflecting/refracting other geometry/texture/lights, and so on recursively.

So clever shaders and bucket rendering were preferable for a long time.

A lot of this, as well as how ray-tracing was implemented despite these problems, is in this paper...
http://graphics.pixar.com/RayTracingCars/paper.pdf

djlithium
04-05-2007, 08:51 AM
You guys need to check out the wardevil project at digi-guys. Can't say much about it but man is it freaking smart and its REAL.
Read up about it at www.wardevil.com (BTW, its mostly LW!)

jin choung
04-05-2007, 01:24 PM
actually,

i agree that ray-tracing isn't a one shot solution to everything. i've heard it said that the reason why we can't have micropoly subdivision (for, among other things, displacements) is because of lw is essentially a ray tracer.

especially for things like multi-pass rendering, i would really like a robust scanline renderer for doing something like fast micropoly subdivision for characters and then maybe turn on ray tracing or GI for another pass for the backgrounds or something.

but having said that, the tendency nowadays does seem to go towards not only ray tracing but radiosity... which i never thought would become a mainstream rendering technique for film/video so quickly.

jin