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cavalos
06-18-2003, 04:54 PM
3500 views of this post only shows something.

1) LW rendering engine and capabilities are really important to us. 2) We want to feel proud for LW rendering engine today and tomorrow.
3) LW needs changes, itīs not a question of life and death but itīs becoming an urgent question considering other 3D programs in the market today.
4) We love LW and we want to see our package on the top.

Best
Christian

Exper
06-19-2003, 02:05 AM
cavalos...
you're right!

We could re-start this Thread in "LW - Feature Requests" Forum. ;)

Bye.

Beamtracer
06-19-2003, 03:46 AM
3500 views of this post only shows something.
5.) Group mentality

You have to wonder why so many people start posting about this all of a sudden. In the past week there's been posts about Lightwave's renderer all over the place. Why so many in one week?

This is what psychologists call the group mentality.

Exper
06-19-2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
This is what psychologists call the group mentality. Democratic-group-mentality. ;)
This is the real benefit of Forums; how many times you'd like talk with someone about something?
It's really normal that so many people was involved in that Thread. I wrote asking to stop a certain flame inclination, but... how many times we take up incorrectly a position againt someone?
Is there someone who can say: "Shut up silly guy!" when we're asking for "better"? No...
I think they shouldn't close the Thread.

Bye.

Sorry for this post... but I think we're not worse guys...

kevman3d
06-19-2003, 05:51 AM
One simple phrase is all I'll post on this subject:

"A Good Artist Never Blames His Tools"

:)

hrgiger
06-19-2003, 07:08 AM
Amen kevman. Amen Beam.

What I have noticed:

Some of those who seem to think that Lightwave should be on top of the pile, yet would never pay top of the pile prices. I don't think that Newtek's mission has ever meant to boast being number one. It has always intended to bring high quality tools at the best price possible. It does this with Aces I might add.

Lightwave has been known for years to have an amazing render which has gotten better with each update, yet somehow, mental ray being added to certain high end packages for free, has somehow made Lightwave's renderer worse? Give us a break people. People act like development has ceased on the rendering portion or something.

Exper
06-19-2003, 07:30 AM
One simple phrase is my own final post for this Thread:

"Well Pleased Is Well Served."

Bye.

Chuck
06-19-2003, 09:18 AM
Actually, nobody here has any idea how the thread got closed. I've just re-opened it. Then Mike accidentally re-closed it since he didn't know I'd beaten him to the admin button, and then he re-opened it again. So we'll keep an eye on it - we're concerned that it may be a sentient, self-closing thread. If so, there's no telling what else it might be capable of. :eek:

harhar
06-19-2003, 12:14 PM
physists and mathematicians call it spontaneous sychronization, similar examples include thousands of people appluad at the same time, stock exchange ect.

cgolchert
06-19-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by kevman3d
One simple phrase is all I'll post on this subject:

"A Good Artist Never Blames His Tools"

:)

That is being used more and more as an excuse not some great piece of insight. I'm sorry if you don't push your software as hard as the rest of us. I want my tools to be better/easier/faster not something to make me find a bunch of workarounds that slow me down to think about something that the current set can't.


Devil's advocate again:
People ask for SSS, we get a depth gradient. Our "pencil" doesn't have an eraser so we have to scratch the paper with the chunk of metal at the end.

Chuck
06-19-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by cgolchert
That is being used more and more as an excuse not some great piece of insight. I'm sorry if you don't push your software as hard as the rest of us. I want my tools to be better/easier/faster not something to make me find a bunch of workarounds that slow me down to think about something that the current set can't.


Devil's advocate again:
People ask for SSS, we get a depth gradient. Our "pencil" doesn't have an eraser so we have to scratch the paper with the chunk of metal at the end.

People who don't agree with you aren't necessarily pushing the software any less hard than you are. Both the "poor artist" comment and your response are ad hominem, and we've had enough of that around here. Discuss issues without the personal remarks, please.

Thank you.

trentonia
06-19-2003, 01:24 PM
Maybe Mental Ray does come "Free" with Maya, but if you want to render across a render farm, you have to purchase enough licenses to cover the farm. At the prices they charge for licenses, that would be cost prohibitive. I'll stick with LightWave, thank you.

cgolchert
06-19-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Discuss issues without the personal remarks, please.


Sorry if you saw that as a personal attack. I'm not sure how someone using a quote to call someone else a poor artist ISN'T one. In truth the more people are asking for more and more features in the program, the more others start spewing that quote. It has become an excuse.

I didn't mean it as much as a personal attack as in pointing out that most people that DO use that quote are modeling cartoon characters or animation whatever. When someone wants a more realistic render option they are told they are poor artists. If that is so I know quite a few poor artists and Digital Domain, Zoic, Dreamworks, WETA, etc...


"Poor artist" being welcome or not, it is posted by NewTek employees too.

TyVole
06-19-2003, 01:54 PM
This is not meant as knock against any particular individual or any point of view, but I really think "A good draftsman never blames his tools" and its minor variations has very quickly become overused and cliched. Enough already -- we get the point.

harhar
06-19-2003, 02:23 PM
I heard Pablo Picasso once cursed, "damn, you stupid filthy paintbrush".

cgolchert
06-19-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Discuss issues without the personal remarks, please.


It would be helpful if a poster could delete their own posts too. Currently the forum says the admin doesn't allow for posters to delete.

hrgiger
06-19-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by cgolchert
.

I didn't mean it as much as a personal attack as in pointing out that most people that DO use that quote are modeling cartoon characters or animation whatever.


I vote this as being the biggest unsubstantiated statement of the day.

cresshead
06-19-2003, 05:09 PM
yet another thread going down the tube!..yawn!

look, lightwave's renderer is, how can i put it...generally looked upon with green eyes from non lightwave users/owners....[keep the green bit in your mind for later on]

where as the other renderers such as mental,brazil, final render,
renderman have a nice feature list...the only one in that list that can render with unlimited free render nodes is final render...and that's been waiting for a long time for an update...final render has a good feature list with sss, a fast gi and..volumetic caustics n all....but the interface is desparate for a make over and try n do gi animations...ohh look flicker city!!!..yeh it get's the speed of GI rendering by only calculating gi for what the camera can see..it's view dependent...let's hope that lightwave doesn't switch to this route but possibly it could add this type of gi rendering to speed up rendering as an option for stills.

i've been a long time user of max and only added lightwave last year...the main reasons to add "lightsnack"?....yeh i used to make jokes about lightwave...so..why did i add it?
number one reason???

that renderer that so many people like the "bash"...
having been on the other side of the lawn i can tell you that the grass is not a better green over here...just a different type of grass in reality...not "better" but simply "different".

having used max for around 5 yrs i can say that i've been having
more "fun" and nice output in lightwave..newtek make's a unique 3d program and it does have it's faults for sure [multi undo in layout should be in there by version 7!...] but... many apps have faults n drawbacks....i wouldn't want all 3d apps to have mental ray as the renderer...that would flatten out the competition on renderers and not drive forward new ideas...

mental ray...i would be nice to have a choice to use it but not ditch lightwave's renderer to do so....

a more interesting move would be to make lightwave's renderer available for maya,max and xsi....that would be cool believe me!
...imagine lightwave renderer with 999 nodes for free to use with maya, soft n max...bye bye mental ray!

steve g

cresshead
06-19-2003, 07:00 PM
errmm they do actually!...quite a few studios..both small and large do have a lightwave pipeline for film and t.v even if they animate in maya...,starwars ep II, the nike advert for example springs to mind as well as feature films and t.v programs such as core, time machine, j neutron...the thing is they don't promote the fact as much as we see MR and prman..if you take a look at mill film that are seeking lightwave artists and lighters for example...

"clear" to see if you actually look for it..of course you won't "see" anything if you only look for mental ray adverts/film etc

by all means join the MR bandwagon...i would if it were free!
but i'd prefer to see a broard "choice" of renderers rather than
being "photoshoped" into a corner.

of course i could take the line that why even bother to look at a "have a go renderer" like mental ray when pr renderman is the real top banana of renderers ... but then i'd look a little silly and out of touch with reality eh!... with such things as workflow, price
and day to day usability... sometimes having a "sports car" is a poor choice when you really need a limo...or a bus!

"choice"....

steve g

harhar
06-19-2003, 08:19 PM
imagine lightwave renderer with 999 nodes for free to use with maya, soft n max...bye bye mental ray!

ha ha, that would be stupid, I doubt Newtek is this stupid.



starwars ep II,

starwars ep II was rendered with Prman.

Chuck
06-19-2003, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by cgolchert
Sorry if you saw that as a personal attack. I'm not sure how someone using a quote to call someone else a poor artist ISN'T one.

I specifically said that it was also a personal attack:

"Both the 'poor artist' comment and your response are ad hominem..."





In truth the more people are asking for more and more features in the program, the more others start spewing that quote. It has become an excuse.

That's not what's happening. When what is at hand is just asking for features, everybody wants more features. When someone laces feature requests with dire predictions for LightWave's future or pronounce it unusable as it stands, then yes, some folks, however many more features they might like to see, feel that needs answering because they do find the product is usable and helping them make a living now and will do so into the future, and they don't want people considering LightWave to see such negative statements unbalanced by commentary on how workable LightWave, in fact, is. Theatrics breed disagreement where there might have been very substantial agreement otherwise.


I didn't mean it as much as a personal attack as in pointing out that most people that DO use that quote are modeling cartoon characters or animation whatever.

Groundless assumption and an ad hominem argument.



When someone wants a more realistic render option they are told they are poor artists. If that is so I know quite a few poor artists and Digital Domain, Zoic, Dreamworks, WETA, etc...

"Poor artist" being welcome or not, it is posted by NewTek employees too.

As it happens, Digital Domain, Zoic, Dreamworks and others are in fact doing some very realistic rendering indeed with LightWave 3D, and of course we are interested in helping them and everyone else who uses LightWave get even better and more powerful rendering capabilities for the future. It isn't asking for more and better rendering capability that draws the "poor artist" comment - it's "I can't work anymore in LightWave unless it has..." and "LightWave isn't as good as (name your 3D package) and will die early next week if it doesn't immediately add..." that draw that reaction.

mattclary
06-19-2003, 09:25 PM
Eggggggggsactly!

cgolchert
06-19-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
it's "I can't work anymore in LightWave unless it has..." and "LightWave isn't as good as (name your 3D package) and will die early next week if it doesn't immediately add..." that draw that reaction.

Sorry, I was reacting to the fact that anytime someone might say ANYTHING negative on ANY LW forum there is someone using that quote, not just in this thread.

anyway....



When someone laces feature requests with dire predictions for LightWave's future or pronounce it unusable as it stands

True enough, I think there are a few people that are nervous about the future since no one knows what is happening with LW8. They ask and ask and get nothing. I can see the need for some silence. I can also see people sitting down and figuring out what is safe to announce to the public about teaser. I would much rather see a feature teaser no matter how little, than a DFX+ bundle. But then I don't need DFX, no matter how cheap I can buy it for. I am more interested in LW8. I have time and money invested in it as do others. I am not saying that LW is dead But people would want to know if an investment NOT saying LW is heading down a dead end. I think that is where a lot of the negativity comes from.

Any request for more info isn't even answered jokingly with a "wait for siggraph" It is just ignored. For comanies likeA|W this is usual, NewTek has always been a community-based company. Maybe ANY preemptive news would eliminate the need for rumor control or post moderation.

I want NewTek to get to the top of the mountian again. CIM was right about that.

mattclary
06-19-2003, 09:54 PM
NewTek has always been a community-based company. Maybe ANY preemptive news would eliminate the need for rumor control or post moderation.

Newtek has always been a TIGHT LIPPED company, get used to it. You're still delivering veilded "or elses". You can phrase it 50 different ways, but it's still what you want to communicate and it's coming through loud and clear. You are saying the same thing every other naysayer has said 50 trillion times. Newtek has heard you, now all you can do is sit back and wait for eight. If 8 doesn't live up to your standards, then chalk it up to Newtek missing the boat and "invest" in Maya.

Chris S. (Fez)
06-20-2003, 03:01 AM
Though I sometimes think that Newtek should have "leaked" Lightwave 8 info long ago, I have also considered that the conjecture of the community has created an amazing marketing machine for Newtek. But no matter. Irrational Orthopedics has granted Lightwave new life as far as I am concerned. It fixes many of the irritating Layout issues that had me lusting after XSI. I am presently very happy working with Lightwave and eagerly await word on 8.

Chuck
06-20-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by cgolchert
Any request for more info isn't even answered jokingly with a "wait for siggraph" It is just ignored.

Excuse me, but as the person here reading and responding on most forums on behalf of NewTek, that is just absolutely not true, and I am absolutely dumbfounded that you could say such a thing when I am sure that you have to know that it isn't the case. I've lost count of the number of times that I've responded to requests by repeating our main areas of emphasis for the update, and letting folks know that further information will indeed be forthcoming at SIGGRAPH. My responses have also pretty frequently been quoted when a helpful member of the community got to such a question before I got to the thread.

I may not have been able to get everywhere and cover everything, but I've certainly done my best, and I see no way that you could actually believe any such thing as you've said. If you do, then you certainly need to take a better look.

cresshead
06-20-2003, 11:19 AM
hello ...prman was not used to render ALL of starwars epII...the shots of a photoreal r2d2 was modeled and rendered with radiosity in lightwave 7.0...if you going to quote you really need to look at all the truth not just the bits that make your personal point look good....

also there's very large parts of starwars ep II that were modelled/aniamted and rendered in electric image..pr man was no where to be seen on thoses shots either...do yourself a favour and lookin to the subject you see fit to"quote" on..get all the information needed...i'm not out to slight people i only offer the truth which may or may not suit everyones attacks on lightwaves renderer capabilities.

steve g


quote:for harhar.......




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
starwars ep II,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



starwars ep II was rendered with Prman.

Earl
06-20-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by cresshead
rather than being "photoshoped" into a corner.


Oooh! Gotta love that expression. :D

cresshead
06-20-2003, 12:47 PM
you know..the thing that i'm absolutely in dread of for the future of 3d applications...?

it being turned into a 3d version of adobe photoshop..
think about it...look at photoshop, currently it's the only serious photoediting app out there nowdays..what do they offer in the last 2-3 revisions?...web based tools!...lar de dar!...yuk...
inovation went out the window with photoshop 5.5 and it's followers and the other pretenders to the throne of photoshop...
Hmm painter 8 and photopaint 11 [or is it now 12....] are simply trying to look like photoshop!!!...Geez!!!! get a grip!

i do not want my 3dapp to follow others..i want to to lead the way..maybe even the wrong way sometimes!...you have to try things out to push things forward....

don't do what max 4 did to upgrade to max 5...copy maya's tools and all that stuff even to the result of workflow detriment!!!...
in some cases it's now more cumbersome than max 4...way to go discreet all to look like a maya type app.

newtek...please do it your way!...that's why we're here...be bought into your quirky ways!..and like 'em!

steve g

gjjackson
06-20-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Chuck
Excuse me, but as the person here reading and responding on most forums on behalf of NewTek, that is just absolutely not true, and I am absolutely dumbfounded that you could say such a thing when I am sure that you have to know that it isn't the case. I've lost count of the number of times that I've responded to requests by repeating our main areas of emphasis for the update, and letting folks know that further information will indeed be forthcoming at SIGGRAPH. My responses have also pretty frequently been quoted when a helpful member of the community got to such a question before I got to the thread.

I may not have been able to get everywhere and cover everything, but I've certainly done my best, and I see no way that you could actually believe any such thing as you've said. If you do, then you certainly need to take a better look.

I'm somewhat new to 3D animation and particularly to lightwave. Previously I used Blender as a good learning tool. After migrating to LW 7.5 I find it's not all that difficult and has many features, and can do most anything with ease. Maybe a lot of these questions could be answered by looking at all the samples that come with the software. Most all my questions have been answered in those.

I think many of us are drooling in anticipation of Siggraph. I'd bet that we'll all be blown away by what LW8 will be. (reading between the lines of Chuck's earlier posts)

cgolchert
06-20-2003, 10:15 PM
Excuse me, but as the person here reading and responding on most forums on behalf of NewTek, that is just absolutely not true, and I am absolutely dumbfounded that you could say such a thing when I am sure that you have to know that it isn't the case. I've lost count of the number of times that I've responded to requests by repeating our main areas of emphasis for the update...

I said MORE info not the tease from the press release. The point I was making that people ask what are "enhancements" not what did the lw8 preview press release say.

Chuck
06-20-2003, 10:54 PM
Here are your words again:


Any request for more info isn't even answered jokingly with a "wait for siggraph" It is just ignored.


You said just exactly what I quoted, Chris. You said questions were being completely ignored, not even given the answer that they'll find out at SIGGRAPH and the fact is that they are not being ignored and we are letting folks know that they'll know more at SIGGRAPH.


In the past we've not said a thing about what was cooking in development until we actually released it. This time we have made the very adjustments that you are claiming we haven't. Instead of keeping mum until we actually shipped [8], we have announced about when it can be expected - fourth quarter - and we have announced when we will be providing details - at SIGGRAPH, several months before [8] is expected to ship.

cresshead
06-20-2003, 11:55 PM
you just can't please some people eh?
just think of siggraph as xmas day for lightwave....don't spoil the day by constantly asking what's your pressy going to be or santa might decide you've nt been good enough during the year!...and not deliver lw8 at all....and as for the threats of "if it don't live up to what i want i'm off"..good luck!...have fun with that learning curve and Ģ800 upgrade price every year.[maya]

newtek "could" have not told us anything at all about if there were going to release a new version of lightwave....and really....is your current lightwave soooooooo lacking?
if you need all the features in maya NOW...get maya and start learning it!...

i think some here need to calm down a bit and look at the positive side of things..

be good
be patient
be ready for a special day at siggraph!

it's only a few weeks away...

steve g

cgolchert
06-21-2003, 12:43 AM
Hey, I'm just discussing things here. I'm not hiding in Chuck's bushes ready to jump him. I don't know about most people when they visit the forum but I don't jump out of my chair, point at the screen and yell at it. :) That is what the TV is for. :)

cavalos
06-22-2003, 07:06 PM
Relaaax my friends...

Now letīs count to ten and start to breath.
1,2,3
Breath
4,5,6
Donīt forget to breath
7,8,9
Breath and think in something peacefull
10

Best
Christian

rabidgoalie
06-22-2003, 07:59 PM
I have read a lot of posts to this board, and a good number of them don't seem to have a lot to do with Lightwaves renderer. WELL MINE DOES!!!:D

Has anyone successfully installed StealthNet on a Linux box? In my manual, it states that StealthNet can run on Solaris and Irix (I have 6.5 currently, so forgive me if I am outdated). Being a Unix based OS, I was wondering if StealthNet would also run on Linux. I have three systems that sport SuSE 7.3 Pro, so I would LOVE to use these systems in my renderfarm.
Also, how would you go about installing StealthNet on Solaris or Irix? I know how to install software in Linux (through packages with SuSE or Redhat, or manually), but I don't have Sun or SGI operating systems, so please forgive me if this question sounds stupid! Do you just run the executable file like in Windows? I have not tried to install it yet. I thought that I should ask someone more knowledgeable than myself about these matters...and I immediately thought about the friendly, helpful Lightwave community!
Any help or advice that you guys (and gals) could give would be great. I think that it is the community itself that helps Lightwave to be one of the best software packages out there today (I have used Softimage|XSI, Maya 4.5, and MAX 5). Oh, and it is a lot of fun to use too!:cool:
In closing I would like to say that a lot of flaming has went on in this thread (at least it seems that way to me). It is my hope that I can ask some really dumb, pointless questions to give everyone a new target. That way, they will stop attacking each other. So, look for more moronic, mindless questions to come!;)
:D :D :D (BTW, yes I LOVE smilie faces, and I use them even when it is inappropriate or it would be a waste of time and space. Its one of my character flaws.):D :D :D

petermark
06-22-2003, 11:22 PM
gjjackson, if you were using Blender first, I bet Lightwave did seem easy! I downloaded and tried Blender a bit just for kicks. Darn, it seemed unintuative to the max (pun pun)! But, being free, I guess the price-value ratio still can't be beat.

rabidgoalie
06-25-2003, 07:47 PM
I have found a tutorial on using Linux as a render node. It is at http://lwbeginner.hypermart.net (http://lwbeginner.hypermart.net/lwsnlinux.html), if anyone else is interested. I hope that Bool doesn't mind me providing a link to his page, but I think that it is great that I can use Linux in my render farm.