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borkus
02-10-2007, 12:14 PM
hello all. just a quick question. i was modelling a figure in sub patch mode, and i realized that when i clicked off the sub patch, the regular model was distorted almost beyond recognition. but the sub patched model had no discernable smoothing problems. is this normal, or is it a sloppy practice that will become a bad habit later on. the first screen cap is what made me think i was doing something wrong. and the other 2 are a model (one that i will be throwing away anyway. too many problems in it to fix. good practice though. will start it over. so please no c and c on it. i know it has many problems) that shows what is happening. when i started it over, it wasn't as bad, but i'm still nowhere near what the subdexample4.jpg represents. obviously being a novice, i can't hope to be that good for a while, but how picky to i have to be with the non-subpatch model? thanks in advance.

borkus
02-10-2007, 12:15 PM
some of the polys even appear to be flipped in non subpatch mode. but they aren't.

borkus
02-10-2007, 12:23 PM
i was kinda proud of this part though. having had lightwave for going on 6 months now, this is probably the farthest i've gotten. bought some tuts from simplylightwave.com and hope to be a lot better in a few months. not exactly what i had in mind for my first post of something i've done, but i guess i've been lurking around these parts for long enough and should show something for it.

Castius
02-10-2007, 01:22 PM
It's not "really" a bad thing to have your cage mesh be that distorted.

But it does give you a good indication that you may be pushing your cage to far. As you can see in the first image he has a lot more polygons to make the shape of the face they wanted. It takes time to learn when to subdivide your mesh. To much and you'll spend to much time tweaking lots of unnecessary polys. And trying to model to much detail to little polygons will give you a mooshy model.

I always tell people don't rush your sub-d modeling. What i mean by that is don't try to add to much detail before you or the mesh is ready. You will see many people model a whole arm with very low polygon cage and immediately start to adding muscle detail. What you end up with is very little detail and a very distorted arm. So before you start the arm decide what detail level the final result will be. If it's to be a very detailed muscular arm. Model a low poly cage and just block out the proportions. After that is done go back and start to added mesh where you need it for the muscles.

Good luck

parm
02-10-2007, 01:32 PM
It helps if you switch between poly and subpatch mode while you are modelling, to keep things tidy.

But bear in mind that the face model you are comparing with. Has a much higher higher poly count than your model, and was probably modelled largely in polygon mode. Or was, maybe, frozen once a good shape was reached in subpatches.

You could try freezing your sub-patched model, but set your subpatch levels to something low like, 2 or even 1, in General Options first.

Surrealist.
02-10-2007, 01:59 PM
Nothing wrong with diving in and going for it. Here is a free file I put together for my own study of the basics of polyflow for simple subivision primitives. This wont get you modeling a head right away, but a careful study of this object file will help in the direction of planning your subd polyflow.

It helped me to do it some time ago when I was getting going at it again and I just wanted to break things down to their simplicity. it should be self explanitory if you open the layers pannel (F7) and read the layer names.

Hope it is of help. :)

borkus
02-10-2007, 02:43 PM
thanks a bunch guys. it's obviously a lot more planning in 3d than in 2d. in 2d, i just draw what i want. in 3d, i guess i need to have a little more patience. and practice. looking back when i first got lightwave, i got to the point where i almost gave up and went back to pencil work. i'm by no means a jedi master at the moment, but have built up enough confidence to plod on. surrealist, that file is awesome. one particular problem i was having was that when i used bandsaw or just cut, i would end up with 4> point polys and couldn't figure out how to eliminate them without giving up some form. but you're right, when i look at those objects and study the flow, it's all about planning the bandsaw with the entire mesh and not just the portion your working on. we have catmull clark now, but it's a lot slower than subpatch.

Bog
02-10-2007, 03:02 PM
Surrealist, that's a brilliant little resource - thank you so much for sharing.

Surrealist.
02-10-2007, 03:08 PM
Good. Glad that was a help. I know what you mean about the transformation from 2D to 3D. I have been making sketches lately and using them as backdrop to model from. Having a basic understanding of polyflow has heled me to transform those images into 3D.

borkus
02-10-2007, 04:28 PM
i finally tracked down where that pic i posted came from. something i found a while ago. probably at 3 in the morning with plenty of beer in me. anyway, the site it came from, i think. some more useful knowledge of sub-d modelling. http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/wiki/tiki-index.php

borkus
02-10-2007, 06:06 PM
another piece of heavy artillery. http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1841 the videos are huge!!! 90 mb or more on some. can't believe this guy made these for free. was looking at something similiar for $80. very worth the download times though. try one and you'll see. i have them all but haven't watched all of them yet. it was done in modo, but the principles are broad and fit nicely into lightwave. haven't tried any work from the tuts yet, but i could imagine the tools i would use in lightwave to attempt this. and for all silo users, these videos are very close to having a similiar toolset. silo is something i'm still considering. getting better at using modeller, but for $109, i could save myself a lot of frustration. any comments on either sticking it out with modeller or getting silo? didn't mean to and don't want to start a flame war over this though. just a spectrum of people using both that can say which has more strong points

oDDity
02-11-2007, 09:05 AM
Well, contrary to Dan Alban, and I'm pretty sure it was in one of the inside lightwave books, possible 6, were he states that it doesn't matter about the polygon mesh when you're modeling in subpatch mode, I think it makes it a lot easier to keep control and flow of the subpatch cage when the poly mesh is in sync with it, and therefore you should constantly switch between the two and adjust vertices as much in poly mode as subpatch mode.
The only 'trick' is to keep it as low poly as possible add detail when and where you need it, no more. The main difficulty being the experience needed to know exactly when and where you need detail, and the best way to achieve that detail, and that's usually model specific, so it can only be learned through experience rather than a tutorial, unless you have 100 different tutorials about a 100 different object archetypes.

Surrealist.
02-11-2007, 11:36 AM
Surrealist, that's a brilliant little resource - thank you so much for sharing.

No problem. Feel free to use anytime you need a box or a disc or an eyeball/sphere that is subpatch friendly and low poly. :)

Many times, I need a primitive shape for subpatch I just open up the file and copy and paste.

mj418
02-11-2007, 12:52 PM
Thank you for that, Surrealist. :)

hrgiger
02-11-2007, 12:59 PM
I model almost exclusively in polygon mode and only switch to subD to check the smoothing and of course for the final model. My meshes are much cleaner as a result.

borkus
02-11-2007, 05:57 PM
oddity, i'm currently in the works of re-doing my "demon" right now. and i sincerely look forward to your criticsms on this project because it will lead to a better understanding of organic modelling. i'm a big boy and can take a "you suck!" in stride only to hit the drawing board and turn that person's opinion around. look forward to it, actually.

oDDity
02-11-2007, 06:09 PM
Well, sorry to disappoint you then, because contrary to popular belief, I've never said 'you suck' to anyone.

borkus
02-11-2007, 06:14 PM
yeah. my bad. don't want to ever put words in anybody's mouth. so i retract that and say i'm sorry. was more or less saying that i look forward to your criticisms because they are harsh but true. again, i'm sorry for stating it that way

Surrealist.
02-11-2007, 08:45 PM
I model almost exclusively in polygon mode and only switch to subD to check the smoothing and of course for the final model. My meshes are much cleaner as a result.


Yeah, me too, for the most part. I always lay out my polyflow in polygon mode then shift back and forth to edit to perfection or in some cases I sculpt in subd.