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tonybliss
02-09-2007, 08:18 PM
This thread has been inspired by the great and flawless Rod Stevens aka Oddity
It seeks to and only seeks to HELP 3d artist of ALL levels develop their modeling skills. Please keep it on topic and clean. My first contribution to this thread is this tutorial that was done by me for my class. I asked them what they wanted to model two people said and elephant and had one of them(victoria gour :) thanks) draw two orthographic sketches for the class to use in the exercise.
Now I share it with you... it is mostly complete and it is a semi cartoon elephant that teaches ONE workflow process in creating such a character.
Again keep it clean, honest and helpful ... please ... or else :devil:

PS OT (against my own request) My new temporary avatar - maggity or margret thatcher (the orig iron maiden) was created for me by the oddy devotee dogBoy. It symbolises what I liked in margret's candor and still getting the job done for the most part, the oddity part well apart form the guy being a skilled modeler I liked the whole oddy avatar thing though I am not a trend follower :)

Cheers

The link (I can't for whatever reason upload the file to NT server, if any one would like to host this file for easy access lemme know :) )

PDF
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OYCACPO3

files
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RLC9IKXG

liquidpope
02-09-2007, 08:53 PM
So... what, you're just being a tool?
This isn't serious, right?
I'm no fan of oDD Rod, but this seems awfully juvenile, and for what?

tonybliss
02-09-2007, 09:10 PM
Get past the parody ... I am no true fan of odd but I do observe how he meticulously bashes/sometimes criticize growing artist. The thread title and satire is only to remind us of the sometimes comical turn of such threads involving odd.
... for what??? - As silly the mix may be, I genuinely want to contribute to helping others in modeling workflows and have others do the same, as we ALL stand to benifit.
Juvenile ... maybe but sometimes thats necessary to lighten the stress at what we do professionally; and it is not totally at Rod's expense since I am in no way bashing him. As harsh and sometimes unnecessary his comments are, he is a good modeler, just not good at communication (sic) and listening (sic)

liquidpope
02-09-2007, 09:19 PM
Ok, so it's more of a light-hearted, good-natured ribbing than a straight up bashing? My bad, reckon I misread the post.
It's a strange way to start a thread designed to truly help people, but if that's what it's really about, then I retract my previous statements.

jasonwestmas
02-09-2007, 09:20 PM
I don't see anything genuine yet. . .this isn't a good way to start things off if you want to build something substantial.

tonybliss
02-09-2007, 09:21 PM
:D Ditto!!! Thanks! Check out the tutes and lets start with Details, less talk :D

Stooch
02-09-2007, 09:39 PM
wow this thread was ruined the second you finished the title...

Andyjaggy
02-09-2007, 09:44 PM
Okay I think this whole Oddity thing is pretty juvenile and low, especially since I agree with him sometimes, but I still couldn't help but laugh out loud when I logged on this morning and started seeing all these Oddity avatars.

tonybliss
02-09-2007, 11:06 PM
my second contribution to the thread. It is in DOC format whih allow anyone to add or modify it.

Cheers

prospector
02-09-2007, 11:08 PM
was gonna look at the stuff but it's one of those kinda websites. Just can't sign in anymore of them and risk getting floods of trashmail.

But tho I don't know Oddity, I do like his answers as I know they won't be sugar coated feelgood answers.
Sometimes I don't agree with him, but that's usually due to personell prefrences and not quality work or subpar work.

tonybliss
02-09-2007, 11:17 PM
Mierda ... I now check through the posts ... it is just good fun on my part, I mostly always agree with rod's advice he gives, he is a glutton for detail and consistency, and at some other times he can be a pain in the *****, but that is the character of rod take it or leave it.
I just decided to help some and yet humor you guys with this yes juvenile thread. I can understand where you may come from with it being juvenile and all ... I am a fun loving guy nonetheless.
... and we say oddity is narrow-minded. you can't hate a guy that much to ...ah no sense going on :)
Since I really want to help growing modellers I will ask a moderator to delete this thread and start a new one focused solely on the main intent of the topic.

Cheers guys :) but i am keeping my avatar for 24 hours :D :tongue:

tonybliss
02-09-2007, 11:21 PM
;) Ahh.... good my dear fellows ... now we know where oddity stands and of inner stance on him, we should never in the future allow a thread to be derailed by his comments, but milk the truth from it, if none is found move on :D

I will do as I said

DogBoy
02-10-2007, 02:38 AM
I agree, when he can keep his criticism on-track, Rod is a great bloke.
His insights into modeling the human body are usually spot on. Unfortunately he often can't tell when to draw the line, and descends into character assasination on those who disagree with him, as he did with Werner. I find it upsetting that he defames peoples work for being too "cheesecake" but produces mainly cheesecake himself, albeit wrapped up as "art".

Anyway, I've taken this off topic. I'll try to stop letting my irritation bring out the child in me. Sorry for my end of hostilities.

I return you now to your usual programming.

lwaddict
02-10-2007, 08:58 AM
I gotta go with some of his info...despite his character.
If the two could be separated, then kewl...otherwise the combination is that of cake and doggy doo, and nobody's eating that eh?

And I could've sword the name was Hudson, but I could be mistaken.

Still, a thread focused on the better aspects of learning modeling would be great.

jasonwestmas
02-10-2007, 10:29 AM
I gotta go with some of his info...despite his character.
If the two could be separated, then kewl...otherwise the combination is that of cake and doggy doo, and nobody's eating that eh?


LOL, Too True.

tonybliss
02-10-2007, 10:47 AM
almost clean thread moved to http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63292

oDDity
02-11-2007, 09:11 AM
The irony being that I don't actually have any laws.
Being self taught and a natural, I just do what I think best at the time. I'm not conventional, because I wasn't told how to model by some tutor at a college, or copy it off some tutorial, and therefore I baulk at the very notion of teaching people how to model well.
You may as well try to teach someone how to fall in love.
That's essentially why I'm no good as a teacher or critic I suppose.
Either you have it or you don't.
If you have it, you don't need any help, and if you haven't, forget it and do something else, but don't waste my time.

Chris S. (Fez)
02-11-2007, 09:33 AM
Oddity might not make the most nurturing instructor, but I would hire him as a modeler. "Natural" or not, he clearly works at his craft and seems the sort to go all out to get the job done. Which, for a remote worker, is pretty much all that matters.

tonybliss
02-11-2007, 09:54 AM
Odd I agree with you, art is developed not taught. I teach my students the tools and varying ways of using them, even that has to be developed.
However during that process a person has to do their research and that is where forums, books, tutorials and honest advice comes in.

jasonwestmas
02-11-2007, 10:01 AM
After all the necessary tools are learned to get the job done; after that it's all observation and learning to see correctly, which cannot be taught.

oDDity
02-11-2007, 11:19 AM
Well I see a lot of genericism in modelers being pumped out even by the famous CG colleges never mind the average ones.
They're mainly pumped out to serve the games industry and it shows in their demo reels.
The models would fit neatly into any generic game and you'd wouldn't know they'd changed modelers since the last game.
A good thing?

tonybliss
02-11-2007, 11:20 AM
Correct :). However the "how to" can be learnt from another's experience, the output is up to the individual themselves and how they choose to develop it

oDDity
02-11-2007, 11:27 AM
In that case, modeling courses should last a fortnight at most. That's all it takes to learn the basics of polygon modeling and sculpting.
The rest is all intuitive.

tonybliss
02-11-2007, 11:28 AM
Initially I learnt my trade tools on my own and I know my output is by far better than those here who studied here and there. So I agree. But then again it was my mental approach to multimedia and 3D; and i am still growing ... I am always in competition with myself.
This is what I usually pass on to others; you first have to be self motivated, no one can do that for you.

toby
02-11-2007, 11:47 AM
After all the necessary tools are learned to get the job done; after that it's all observation and learning to see correctly, which cannot be taught.
Of course it can. Everyone has the capacity to learn art, being taught observation is even easier.

tonybliss
02-11-2007, 12:02 PM
the course I teach for the modeling module it is only 36 hours and the output is mostly fantastic. I teach the tools and the mindset behind it. It is teaching without teaching.

some student stuff ... and believe me when I say I never taught them the how to create these things but only the tools and the mindset. They do their own research.
Their only complaints to me are they can't sleep at night because the only want to do 3d stuff and they can't stop looking at things around them.

I don't think people realise what is really meant by we live in a 3 dimensional world and its associations, so when their minds open up to these things they get into it
I always say that in art the greatest asset is the ability to observe

tonybliss
02-11-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't (which is bad) keep most of my students personal experiments only their final projects but here is another on of my students personal experimentts.

... most of these guys never even knew what 3d meant before the class

jasonwestmas
02-11-2007, 01:48 PM
Of course it can. Everyone has the capacity to learn art, being taught observation is even easier.

How can one show another what they see? That's physically impossible to show someone what you are seeing spacially or how that space affects you emotionally. I suppose you can sit there and point out the things you see and how they make you feel but that doesn't ensure that someone will understand that part of you. It's all based on visual theory that involved color and different values of light. This is not a scientific thing that can be measured. If it was then there would be no process to understand something visually or emotionally, it would be instantaneous understanding like when you use your software manual and therefore anyone could do it at any time which we know is not the case with traditional art. For example, It is cryptic to understand the way color and value creates spacial depth and even more abstract to teach someone what you are feeling inside especially in the context of personal style. Even if I was trying to be photo or hyperreal for some kind of product I don't think I've ever thought that creating something that 'I like' was easy. I'm not going to go into another "define what is art debate" but 'how one sees' is very individualistic and is not able to be separated from the subjective context of the experience within the personal mind. This cannot be taught in the respect of reflecting that personal experience within a visual representation. :) So in conclusion, yes anyone can create a visual experience but whether or not they 'like' it or others 'like' it and wether or not it is believeable in the context of the project at hand only comes through a process and a group of indivuals who come to an stylistic agreement.

jasonwestmas
02-11-2007, 02:19 PM
If you guys would want to try to replicate a certain style and then try to agree if that style is copied correctly, I think we could do that. It happens all the time in the industry. However, I would call that craftsmanship, not art.

toby
02-11-2007, 02:48 PM
How can one show another what they see? That's physically impossible to show someone what you are seeing spacially or how that space affects you emotionally. I suppose you can sit there and point out the things you see and how they make you feel but that doesn't ensure that someone will understand that part of you. It's all based on visual theory that involved color and different values of light. This is not a scientific thing that can be measured. If it was then there would be no process to understand something visually or emotionally, it would be instantaneous understanding like when you use your software manual and therefore anyone could do it at any time which we know is not the case with traditional art. For example, It is cryptic to understand the way color and value creates spacial depth and even more abstract to teach someone what you are feeling inside especially in the context of personal style. Even if I was trying to be photo or hyperreal for some kind of product I don't think I've ever thought that creating something that 'I like' was easy. I'm not going to go into another "define what is art debate" but 'how one sees' is very individualistic and is not able to be separated from the subjective context of the experience within the personal mind. This cannot be taught in the respect of reflecting that personal experience within a visual representation. :) So in conclusion, yes anyone can create a visual experience but whether or not they 'like' it or others 'like' it and wether or not it is believeable in the context of the project at hand only comes through a process and a group of indivuals who come to an stylistic agreement.
Of course you can't teach someone how they percieve or react to the way things look, that's not what I'm saying. You can teach someone observation by teaching them all about color and shape, how emotions tend to react to them, what to look for, point out things they don't notice, teach by example what "better" looks like, etc.

tonybliss
02-11-2007, 03:02 PM
Yep!! Why reinvent the wheel, teach from experience
However everyone interprets differently, so that is why artists or even craftsmen may vary in their STYLES.
It is always important to know the basics of anything first, everyone wants to model a perfect female the first time they open a 3d program ... i know i was there
... do it right in the beginning and you will develop better !!!

jasonwestmas
02-12-2007, 06:38 AM
Of course you can't teach someone how they percieve or react to the way things look, that's not what I'm saying. You can teach someone observation by teaching them all about color and shape, how emotions tend to react to them, what to look for, point out things they don't notice, teach by example what "better" looks like, etc.

Oh ok, you are talking about 'theory' then, not art. (I would disagree that you can tell someone what "better" looks like unless you are talking about a specific style or product; A visual model which is "replication", not creative thought). If I would be at all interested in a school of thought here in a forum based on modeling I would hope for a lot of specificity as to what the end product is supposed to look like (A photo for example). If you are talking about theory concerning what reality looks like and therefore wish to replicate something you see in reality then hey, who am I to argue. These are just my suggestions of course and please don't think I'm trying to moderate your wishes for such a thread. This is my reaction and I don't believe that replication is the same as creative thought. I just want to know the direction of all of this.

CG swami: You wish to use a style and then improve upon it? I guess I'd have to see what you are talking about.

tonybliss
02-12-2007, 07:13 AM
No ... you learn the techniques and develop you own style, workflow, etc

jasonwestmas
02-12-2007, 08:12 AM
A technique is only a generic compound of how to create something more specific. If you wish to create something that is not generic or is your own idea, the technique itself will not do that for you. Specificity is found only within something you see with your eyes such as a photo, live model, concept drawing or blueprint. The subject or style determines the technique, not the other way around.

I'm not sure what you guys are imagining stylistically but if someone were to use a concept drawing to teach a technique that looked like a cell shaded anime character and didn't post the drawing used or the end result we wouldn't know how this technique was supposed to be applied to create the 'desired' image. We also wouldn't know what the necessary levels of detail are for the model/ textures etc. (Creating a model without considering the end result does not imply a good model all the time). Likewise if someone were to post an anime character model/render that we all recognized as being a flat cell shaded character but in actuallity the person was intending to make the final render look more volumetric and feel more fleshy and/or materialistic; Then he might be giving the us the wrong advice if we thought that he was trying to make something more flat and more traditional. You see, it all starts from a concept or a realistic or cartoon referance. (The type of technology used to create the render needs to be considered for performance vs. stylistic reasons as well.) If you believe the opposite you will wind up with something that is either a copy; something that is generic; or something that is impractical. I'll leave that decision to the tutorial instructor.

tonybliss
02-12-2007, 08:17 AM
Makes sense enough :)

kyuzo
02-12-2007, 08:36 AM
If you guys would want to try to replicate a certain style and then try to agree if that style is copied correctly, I think we could do that. It happens all the time in the industry. However, I would call that craftsmanship, not art.

I can't remember where I heard this, but it wasn't long ago:

If you make something with your hands you are a builder.
If you make something with your hands and head, you are a craftsman.
If you make something with your hands, head and heart, you are an artist.

jasonwestmas
02-12-2007, 08:45 AM
I can't remember where I heard this, but it wasn't long ago:

If you make something with your hands you are a builder.
If you make something with your hands and head, you are a craftsman.
If you make something with your hands, head and heart, you are an artist.

I would say that is accurate and a much better way to put it than I did. Context is always dependant upon these frames of thought.

Randog
02-12-2007, 10:35 AM
The irony being that I don't actually have any laws.

I don't know what your 3D aspirations are but, if this is the case then never go in to film production.


Being self taught and a natural and arrogant
, I just do what I think best at the time. I'm not conventional, because I wasn't told how to model by some tutor at a college,

Nor was I.


or copy it off some tutorial,

Nor have I.

I have worked through many tutorials. I will work trough a lesson once, then a second time to make sure that I understand the underlying principles.


and therefore I baulk at the very notion of teaching people how to model well.

I sure don't.


You may as well try to teach someone how to fall in love.
That's essentially why I'm no good as a teacher or critic I suppose.

Nahhhh, your inability to be a critic is because you let your arrogance get in the way.


Either you have it or you don't.

In part this is true. If you do not have the very basic levels of ability to work in 3D; then I would agree. However, developing skills when the basic intuitive skill set is present is critical for any artist to develop and grow.


If you have it, you don't need any help, and if you haven't, forget it and do something else, but don't waste my time.

I guess it all depends on your defenition of "it"

lwaddict
02-12-2007, 10:54 AM
OMG...I'm not about to agree, even partially, with oDDity am I?

But I tend to lean towards agreeing with him about some of what he's recently stated.

I've seen a lot of peeps pick up software and/or training material and even go to schools to learn how to be artists...well...not too much real success there folks.

BUT...I disagree on not teaching people how to use the tools. If you think you've got it, you gotta learn how to use the tools. Not everything is completely intuitive, especially if you're used to airbrushes, pencils, and clay.

So...I guess I half agree.
I completely agree with the fact that some of the most talented people cannot teach...and some of the most talented teachers cannot "do". And then there's the midways...which I probably fall under since I consider myself good at a little of both but not great at either.

ARGH...I'm so confused.
oDDity, just be mean so it's easier to chat with you ok? LOL.

Stooch
02-12-2007, 03:32 PM
one underlying and simple rule.

skill does not give you the right to be an a$$hole. no matter how you try to pass it off. if one cannot learn this simple lesson, then one must prepare for a short career or a long hobby.

by the way, the premise of this thread is too juvenile to be beneficial. i doubt anyone would seriously entertain contributing...

oDDity
02-12-2007, 03:44 PM
Why have a specific rule about skill not giving you the right to be an a$$hole?
That implies that there are genuine reasons for being an a$$hole, and if so, I'd like to know what they are, since maybe I fall into that category as well.

CMT
02-12-2007, 04:01 PM
Just how not everyone has the ability to become a theoretical physicist (no matter how hard they might try) not everyone can become a Michaelangelo.

But color theory, composition, dynamics, etc... is hardly rocket science. It's more intuition and observation. Some get it faster than others. Some need to study like **** to just get a grasp of something.

I've seen posts of art from people who have been doing 3D for 8-10 years on some forums and have not really made much progress. Yet they've been studying others all that time. Of course their art improved because of technique. Most of which was given to them in the form of lighting setups and shaders they can throw on their models. But they have a hard time with grasping true observation and interpretation.

Sure observation can be taught, but only the basics of it. No matter how much you think you know, there's always more to learn about how you see things. And not everybody has the capacity to be good at it.


The irony being that I don't actually have any laws.
Being self taught and a natural, I just do what I think best at the time. I'm not conventional, because I wasn't told how to model by some tutor at a college, or copy it off some tutorial, and therefore I baulk at the very notion of teaching people how to model well.
You may as well try to teach someone how to fall in love.
That's essentially why I'm no good as a teacher or critic I suppose.
Either you have it or you don't.
If you have it, you don't need any help, and if you haven't, forget it and do something else, but don't waste my time.

You may have been self taught, but how much faster would you have learned with the right teacher and materials? You may eventually get there on your own, but for those who "have it" and want to learn, your speed in which your understanding increases would definately benefit from learning materials.

jasonwestmas
02-12-2007, 04:25 PM
Sure observation can be taught, but only the basics of it. No matter how much you think you know, there's always more to learn about how you see things. And not everybody has the capacity to be good at it.



To truly see something for what it is, that is a never ending story. It is foolish and limiting to think otherwise.

tonybliss
02-12-2007, 04:29 PM
by the way, the premise of this thread is too juvenile to be beneficial. i doubt anyone would seriously entertain contributing...

Yes ... as realised ... clean thread was moved to here http://newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63292

I think sometimes people stereotype things like this too quickly ... however :thumbsup: ...

oDDity
02-12-2007, 05:35 PM
You may have been self taught, but how much faster would you have learned with the right teacher and materials? You may eventually get there on your own, but for those who "have it" and want to learn, your speed in which your understanding increases would definately benefit from learning materials.

An equal question is how much would you be held back or tarnished by the wrong teacher.
The answer is you'll never know, because you can never go back and unlearn.
So all this clones being pumped out by CG schools, making the same orcs and doom-like monsters, yeah, maybe some of them would never have reached that level alone, but there are others who'd be way above that level without the academic system.

tonybliss
02-12-2007, 06:25 PM
As with all things, especially in this western world, teachers DO limit their students with their own limitations ...
But as always also their are the few who who would go beyond the teacher and reseacrch, etc ad develop.

T-Light
02-12-2007, 06:28 PM
oDDity -

So all this clones being pumped out by CG schools, making the same orcs and doom-like monsters, yeah, maybe some of them would never have reached that level alone, but there are others who'd be way above that level without the academic system.
I've been with you in this thread until that statement.
I've worked with people who I wouldn't have given a chance, yet they persevere and make it, they've never had a tutor's backing, they just go for it and s*d them all, on the other hand, I've seen zero talent people make it into the big league because they have the qualifications and they were taught a...b....c...d...e..f, and with a photographic memory learned every character.

This follows in every form of life, art, journalism to physics. It's a complete b*st*rd, there's some people just born to academia and success , we've got to live with it, we have no choice.

Believe you me, there will come a time where a studio exec will look at an 'oDDity' head and a 'FaceGen' head and prefer the 'FaceGen' (because they're in a position to 'KNOW' better.:thumbsdow :(

Very sad and VERY true :(

T-Light
02-12-2007, 06:31 PM
It took me a while to compose the last effort, oDD's been in there and confirmed what I said???

Is oDD turning decent or am I turning Oriible???:devil: :devil: :devil:

T-Light
02-12-2007, 06:44 PM
Oh my G*d.

It wasn't oDD at all but cgswami who posted the last tidbit. (appolgies Odd, thought you'd grown a concience there for a second)

I am weak, I'm on my last post for DR.whoish type character avatar....

Fading awayyyy...

It's all different from now on in...
Bye everyone, bye bye
Bye.

Welcome to the darkness :devil: :devil:

taproot2
02-12-2007, 07:03 PM
An equal question is how much would you be held back or tarnished by the wrong teacher.
The answer is you'll never know, because you can never go back and unlearn.
So all this clones being pumped out by CG schools, making the same orcs and doom-like monsters, yeah, maybe some of them would never have reached that level alone, but there are others who'd be way above that level without the academic system.
So says the fool with almost an entire web site devoted to copies, monsters and thieves, and generic A-S-S-set development.
Chris Provine

Andyjaggy
02-12-2007, 07:37 PM
Well since I am a student I will chime in with my opinions on this subject. First I have to say I am not an actual '3D' student nor an 'art' student. I am studying digital media production. I graduate this fall.

Year 1 - I started out in the program not knowing a whole lot and took a bunch of random classes. Some 3D classes, some web classes, some video classes etc..... At first I thought it was awesome and I was amazed at what my professors could do.

Year 2 - I started to get really into this stuff, and started putting alot of personal time into learning some skills. At this point I still thought school was and that my professers were amazing. I saw upper division student created project that were going to be distributed nationally and I got really excited to be an upper classman.

Year 3 - With a lot more personal studying under my belt I entered my 3rd year. This year I took a 3D class and remember sitting in the class excited to learn on the first day. The professer starts showing us how to model something and I start thinking to myself, wow that is some bad poly flow. wow he is using way way to much geometry for that object. Apparently all my personal studying had finally paid off.

Year 4 - At this point I just show up to class enough to find out what my assignments are and when they are do. I do still go pretty regularly but when I do go I just sit with my laptop and work on my own stuff. I stopped paying attention to the professor because he wasn't teaching me anything I didn't allready know.

Conclusion - Maybe it's just my school and my professors but I am so frustrated right now that I am forking out money to be taught stuff I could learn faster and cheaper on my own. I have had some amazing teachers but they are few and far between. I still think the college experience is valuable for other reasons. It shows you can complete something, it does teach you some skills and give you some experience that you wouldn't otherwise be able get and want it or not a lot of people do care if you have a degree. However if you ever want to get good at this stuff (don't get me wrong I am not saying I am amazing and super talented) you have to do it on your own. A teacher is only good at getting you started, and occasionaly pushing you in the right direction. I've seen a lot of students graduate without knowing anything and thinking they are going to get a job. Students who don't even understand how a UV map works or what it does..... because they never invested the time on their own.

Anyway that's my two cents. Take it for what it is worth.

jasonwestmas
02-12-2007, 07:42 PM
Oh my G*d.

It wasn't oDD at all but cgswami who posted the last tidbit. (appolgies Odd, thought you'd grown a concience there for a second)

I am weak, I'm on my last post for DR.whoish type character avatar....

Fading awayyyy...

It's all different from now on in...
Bye everyone, bye bye
Bye.

Welcome to the darkness :devil: :devil:

Oh, oh, T-light whipped his nasty black cat out! :O

T-Light
02-12-2007, 07:45 PM
Andyjaggy -

A teacher is only good at getting you started, and occasionaly pushing you in the right direction
That's what there for.

Only the good ones tend to come through though :)

T-Light
02-12-2007, 07:53 PM
[email protected] -

Oh, oh, T-light whipped his nasty black cat out! :O

Cha,yeah and he's here to stay.........

Ang on, that didn't work... try this

And HE's HERE to stay...

Nah, no, that's rubbish...try this

The guy who used to do the 80's vid's voice overs, the one one with the 'only one lung due to smoking havana's' type voice...

T'S BACK, THIS TIME IT'S PERSONAL...

YEAH that's the one, now add some explosions :D

lwaddict
02-12-2007, 09:00 PM
I wouldn't just go and slam teachers in general oDD...

I've had really, really bad ones...the kind that teach you to memorize. Basically the ones you met through much of gradeschool and high school.

But I've had really, really good ones too...the kind that explain how you should rethink what you're taught, observe on your own, and really absorb your alternatives instead of accepting what you're told and shown as the way.

I think you'll miss a lot by casting them all aside. But then, you miss a lot by casting many of the people on this board aside as well...so be it.

lwaddict
02-12-2007, 09:02 PM
T...lol...
it's more like...

"In a world...
of internet threads and opposing opinions...
ONE...CAT...DARES...
to stand tall.
He's packing nine lives...and he's not going to take it...
ANYMORE"
<insert whooshing sound as logo splash appears and Casio keyboard synths do what they do>

LOL

T-Light
02-12-2007, 09:24 PM
lwaddict -

<insert whooshing sound as logo splash appears and Casio keyboard synths do what they do>
Oh Nooo, how did you know I had a casio keyboard????


They're all spying on you Brent

Get stuffed scaredy, you know nowt

I know EVERYTHING, I am the PUSS of truth.

Stooch
02-12-2007, 09:28 PM
best teachers that have helped me improve my craft had nothing to do with computers. they were teaching me how to paint with oil, mix color and sketch from life. Best teachers would push me and give me an A only if gave an example of the best I can do, not the rest of the class. measuring my progress based on MY GROWTH not some assinine competition. To deliver a critique effectively is a vital part of learning from the mistakes of others.

parm
02-12-2007, 09:40 PM
An equal question is how much would you be held back or tarnished by the wrong teacher.

Higher education doesn't work quite like that. At least not in Art Schools. There are many more than just one tutor available to consult. By this stage a student is expected to be self motivated, and be able to ask the right kind of questions. It is up to the student to extract what is useful to themselves. In that sense, everyone becomes self taught beyond a certain stage. Education,is about giving an individual the intellectual equipment, to do these things for themselves.
After all, you would agree. That it's quite possible for a person with experience, to show you how to do something in a few moments. That may take several days to figure out on your own



The answer is you'll never know, because you can never go back and unlearn.

For an Artist, unlearning is a necessity.

To be able to see the world with knowledge, without imposing that knowledge on what one sees. Is the difficult, and seemingly paradoxical feat of perception that leads to insight.

Here's a few things Picasso said on the matter:


Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up.


Some painters transform the sun into a yellow spot, others transform a yellow spot into the sun.

In later life Picasso visited an exhibition of children's drawings. He observed:


When I was their age, I could draw like Raphael, but it took me a lifetime to learn to draw like them.

CMT
02-12-2007, 11:26 PM
The best professor (and the only good one there, if you ask me) I ever had was my illustration professor. He went out of his way to help people develop thier understanding of color and form, which was supposed to have already been learned already in Visual Fundamentals course. It's as if he knew the other profs sucked.

He would take acetate and cover our illustration, then paint on top, just like any other digital paintover. Only he was doing this 20 years ago. I learned more in one semester with him than the 3 years of art education I took before that class. I ended up taking all my independent studies with him as well. Money well spent (He made up for what the rest of the profs lacked). I was lucky he was there for otherwise it would have been money down the drain.

parm, right on, brutha!

toby
02-12-2007, 11:58 PM
Am I too late for the party?


Oh ok, you are talking about 'theory' then, not art.
Ok, I see in context to the previous post you weren't really saying that observation can't be taught - but that which comes after the training...


(I would disagree that you can tell someone what "better" looks like unless you are talking about a specific style or product;Yes, that's what I meant by "better by example".

D33P BLACK
02-13-2007, 01:01 AM
My father once said "I'll take an honest ******* over a bull****ting sweetheart any day." There isn't much my father and i agree on, but that's one. So, even though it is (or should be) irrelevent what i think about you oddity, your the **** in my book.

oDDity
02-13-2007, 03:20 AM
oDDity has been temporarily banned for one month for repeated violations of posted moderation policy.

tonybliss
02-13-2007, 03:32 AM
odd, i may be wrong but I think he was complimenting you ...
even if he was insulting you(which I doubt) there was no need need to retaliate like that esp going home.

close this thread please somebody ... I moved the purely helpful thread to another location ... no humor ... no tact ... what else ???

Iain
02-13-2007, 06:39 AM
The whole premise of this thread meant it was bound to end in bad feeling. That was obvious from just the title.

The avatars are tantamount to bullying and anyone else would probably have complained about it. But then it's all a form of hero worship whether intentional or not so why complain?

DogBoy
02-13-2007, 07:31 AM
The avatars are tantamount to bullying and anyone else would probably have complained about it.

Point taken. I've returned to my other avatar an' don' I look sexy?

Iain
02-13-2007, 07:41 AM
an' don' I look sexy?

You know-you do, in a Brian Glover 1970's Saturday morning kind of a way.

Ahhh takes me back. Chris Tarrant looking young, Lenny Henry in a rasta hat, Sally James making me feel kinda funny.
tut!

DogBoy
02-13-2007, 08:01 AM
...Sally James making me feel kinda funny.
tut!

Sally James, :D . Wow, the wandering of a teenage brain, huh? :devil:

bluerider
02-13-2007, 08:10 AM
Sally James, :D . Wow, the wandering of a teenage brain, huh? :devil:

Custard pies and sally James :gotpics:

NTComm
02-13-2007, 08:28 AM
oDDity has been temporarily banned for a period of one month for repeated violations of posted moderation policy.

However, this does not mean it is now open season on oDDity. Anyone using the opportunity of his absence to launch assaults against him on these forums will be dealt with in a similar manner.

As this thread has been heading in that direction for a while now, it is now closed. If you want to discuss modeling techniques that is fine, and we encourage it, but there is no need to start a thread obviously taking aim at one member.