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ScorpioProd
02-03-2007, 01:24 AM
If any of you happen to run into the situation that I did, where your capture preview window or your send to tape preview window show inverted colors when you are working with HDV, here's the fix:

Newer graphics card drivers.

I had previously been using the nVidia 81.95 drivers, and moving to the nVidia 93.71 drivers fixed the problem. :thumbsup:

paulfierlinger
02-03-2007, 05:59 AM
I haven't been able to work with SE yet because I've been told that I must get the old, archived driver. Here's an example:

Actually the newer NVIDIA drivers have caused me problems. I rolled back to 81.95 to solve problems with SE.

So I haven't had a chance to do anything yet because I'm too busy with production to start experimenting in a field I know little about and am waiting for a hired expert to do the experiments in a more knowledgeable way... Until he can make it to my house, he wants me to feed him information entered by other people who have experienced problems with the NVidia cards on this forum and I am getting all conflicting reports.

I have an NVidia Quadro Video Card with the latest driver. My Vegas runs at its best on it. Why should SE require us to step backwards while using such a popular product?

If I step back into the archive closet for a driver that will make SE perform, what will this do to Mirage and Vegas? I need to work with both NLEs at the same time ust to switch over.

My SE is so slow, beginning just with moving the panels of the GUI around. When I attempt to load an .avi SE doesn't like, it freezes and I have to shut it down with Task Manager. Sometimes it freezes up the computer entirely, including Task Manager and I have to force reboot the whole system.

I've been told by a knowledgeable person in this group that this behavior is symptomatic for graphics card issues. I went back to work with Vegas until someone who knows clearly what to do can come to my computer and help me out. In mid-production on a 80 minute commissioned film I can't afford to break the current, well working system down, because I I've been told by many that SE will be better than Vegas for me for the type of work I do.

This is where I am with SE at the moment.

ScorpioProd
02-03-2007, 12:19 PM
When you have a chance, I would recommend talking to your dealer or to Newtek tech support, and they should be able to give you some good advice on solving your problems.

As for myself, I had been using the 81.95 driver based on Newtek's recommendations, but due to my problem with inverted colors, they recommended I try the new driver, which they now considered stable. I went to 93.71 and it fixed it for me. This is with my nVidia 6600GT card.

I agree with you that it would really suck if different NLEs needed different graphics drivers, but the reality of the situation is, that if you look on the nVidia site, especially for a high-end OpenGL card like the Quadro line, you will find DIFFERENT drivers recommended for most of the different NLEs that they list on their website. Can some drivers work with a number of them, probably. With all of them, probably not.

Blaine Holm
02-03-2007, 03:00 PM
93.71 is a very good stable driver release. It has fixed issues in other systems we sell withother NLEs.

paulfierlinger
02-03-2007, 06:21 PM
People, these drivers don't even apply to my nVidia card, which is a Quadros NVS 440 PCI Express. It's beginning to dawn on me that SE won't work with this card. Is there anyone who has a Quadros and a working SE? Anyone at NewTek? Has this type of card ever been tested in the development stage?

ScorpioProd
02-04-2007, 12:52 AM
Well, based on nVidia's website, Newtek recommends the 84.26 driver for your card for LW and for VT. And the 84.26 driver is the latest driver for the Quadro NVS on nVidia's website. I would think that if it works for VT, it would work for SE, but only Newtek would really know.

Thing is, the Quadro line of cards are excellent OpenGL cards for applications like LW that use OpenGL. NLEs like VT and SE use DirectX for their magic, NOT OpenGL. That's why I think you'll find most users using the more common "gamer" type cards which are DirectX powerhouses, but not as strong at OpenGL.

That said, I would expect the Quadro line of cards to work with VT and SE, too, and based on VT being mentioned on nVidia's website, I would strongly believe that to be the case.

A lot of high-end workstations, like ones from Dell, only come with the Quadro card options. In fact, a friend of mine had a heck of a time finding a driver that would let him run both EDIUS 4 and Vegas 7 with the same driver, but eventually he found one.

I would say give Newtek Tech Support a call.

radams
02-04-2007, 01:38 AM
Hi Paul,

Well this Quadro is the kink in your system chain....

It was never meant to do what you need it to do...it is also a very low end version for even OpenGL...this type of card is really for Stock brokers with multi-screens and some with Lower end CAD needs. If you checkout Nvidia's website, you will see that the Quadro NVS wasn't designed to do what you are doing with it.

You would need to go to the Quadro FX line..and even with that I would not go below the 1500...


I would strongly suggest changing your graphics card to the Nvidia 7 series...the 7950 or 7800...
If you wish to keep with Quadro boards...then you should be looking at the 4000 or 5000 series to get the same throughput.


The Geforce 7 series would give you close to Quadro 5000 series performance for what you do...at less than 25% the cost....
Hope that helps...along with working in Native PCI Express.

You may for the first time be able to playback 1080p in realtime with changing that out.

I would also suggest touching base with NT about drivers...

Cheers,

paulfierlinger
02-04-2007, 01:51 AM
Thanks both of you for your input and I will follow your suggestions through on Tuesday.

paulfierlinger
02-04-2007, 12:35 PM
Ray, the following is just one of several reviews I found (this one from Amazon) stating suitability for NLEs. Nevertheless I am going to experiment with the 7 series per your recommendations. My IT and computer builder has a return policy with nVidia. One minor problem with that series is that all those cards are for 2 monitors only; I have three but can work around it.

Manufacturer's Description
The NVIDIA Quadro4 NVS series of multi-display professional graphics solutions offers industry-leading acceleration, crystal clear image quality, and ultimate stability for professional 2D applications popular in the financial services and Non-Linear Video Editing (NLE) markets. Based on Intel's AGP 3.0 specification, the 8X graphics solution - the NVIDIA Quadro4 280 NVS - delivers breakthrough application performance, graphics programmability, and multi-display productivity to further solidify NVIDIA's professional graphics leadership.

radams
02-04-2007, 10:11 PM
Ray, the following is just one of several reviews I found (this one from Amazon) stating suitability for NLEs. Nevertheless I am going to experiment with the 7 series per your recommendations. My IT and computer builder has a return policy with nVidia. One minor problem with that series is that all those cards are for 2 monitors only; I have three but can work around it.

Manufacturer's Description
The NVIDIA Quadro4 NVS series of multi-display professional graphics solutions offers industry-leading acceleration, crystal clear image quality, and ultimate stability for professional 2D applications popular in the financial services and Non-Linear Video Editing (NLE) markets. Based on Intel's AGP 3.0 specification, the 8X graphics solution - the NVIDIA Quadro4 280 NVS - delivers breakthrough application performance, graphics programmability, and multi-display productivity to further solidify NVIDIA's professional graphics leadership.


Hi Paul & All,

First, even in your quote...it states AGP...AGP is NOT that great for working with SE...the PCI-Express 16 lane is the MUCH better choice...If you need more than two monitors then go with an SLI configuration (two of the same card -four output).

The NVS is NOT very good at much except BASIC 2D display work...such as spreedsheets and Data...which is why they like it for banks and stockbrokers...but for HD video production ....NO thanks !!!...not enough bandwidth and very SLOW...

The QuadroFX line...1500 or above...and the Geforce 7 series or above....

Cheers,

rbartlett
02-05-2007, 07:35 AM
The statement about the suitability for NLEs doesn't take into account the current trend towards offloading some of the timeline+preview processing to the card. You also have a copy of Vegas, now this doesn't do much more when it talks to your graphics card than you'd have come across with an ancient system like the CBM Amiga (and it's native graphics rather than DPS' PAR). It is also true that many NLEs up until a couple of years ago were processing their complex work in memory and only really having a 2D drawing (with some bit-block image transfers within the frame) approach with the onboard graphics hardware. So AGP2X G400 cards with 16MB RAM were adequate!

Times have changed and the GPU on the graphics card and the shape and size of the data pipes and level of acceleration (e.g. pixel shading) is very much a part of the overall usefulness and performance of the latest group of NLEs. Vegas owners have been shouting for >8bit RGB support, adoption of GPU assisted internal effects (BorisFX tend to use OpenGL functions but that is about the extent of it for Sony's NLE) and a better and more elaborate titling suite.

Sometimes less expenditure results in more grunt, at least it does with todays computers. Gamer graphics cards, low latency common variety memory's speed and in fact most things you'll come across other than the max number of slots, CPU sockets and host bus speeds are better in the top end desktop PC than their workstation counterparts. This has come about partly by consumerism but the main progressor has been the arrival of the PCIexpress bus itself.

Of course, when you are performing straight cuts and fades only, then to be needing to upgrade your graphics card to gain a realtime full resolution preview may seem somewhat arguable for it's appropriateness? Given this, there may be some preference tuning that you can satisfy your limited directx support to workaround?

Try calling NewTek, run it past them. They may be able to best advise whether you can achieve what you want on your older PC and whether upgrading/using-alternative-hardware for one or two components will give you what you need. Of course this forum ought to be able to guide you also, but before anything goes back to the IT and computer builder...........

paulfierlinger
02-05-2007, 10:04 AM
Try calling NewTek, run it past them.
I hesitate to call them now simply because I am not adequately knowledgeable in computer sciences to engage in a helpful conversation.
They may be able to best advise whether you can achieve what you want on your older PC My PC is brand new and was built specifically to handle HD projects. The video card appears to be the weak link in an otherwise perfectly adequate system.
and whether upgrading/using-alternative-hardware for one or two components will give you what you need. Which is what I don't mind spending a little money on by conducting some experiments of my own based on the information I have received here.
Of course this forum ought to be able to guide you also, but before anything goes back to the IT and computer builder...........I have decided that since we all use computers in different ways and there seem to be few points of mutual agreements on the perfect machine I'll be best off if I first take care of the most glaring mistake by replacing the video card. I don't mind someone making mistakes since it is the only way I myself have ever learned to do what I do for a living. After Thursday I'll let you all know, in unscientific terminology, what conclusions we have arrived at.:D

John Perkins
02-05-2007, 12:26 PM
When we recommended the 81.95 drivers the new drivers weren't available. I still suspect that something was not right with Eugene's driver install that the new drivers were able to overwrite. I used the 81.95 versions for most of my testing and had no inverted colors.

Just for the record, that NVS card comes in two flavors, PCI-E 1x and PCI-E 16x. The fact that it is available as PCI-E 1x is a bad sign.

I don't normally recommend the NVS line for 3D applications. Even though they do support 3D, in order to fit multiple GPU's on one card, all passively cooled, they use slower older generation GPU's.

You could probably try using the low quality output window with the NVS. That usually works on just about any video card, but I don't have access to one to test.

For light weight 3D or 2D, they are fine, but that's about it.

I would rather go with a consumer-level gaming card such as the 7600 or newer to get the best bang for the buck. A Quadro will work fine, but you will need one of the faster and thus more expensive cards to get the same performance as the 6600 or newer. Price does not always equal performance.

Note, there is a "gotcha" in the nvidia product line numbering. For example, a 7300 is not as good as a 6600. The easy way to tell is that if the hundreds digit is below 6, it's a budget card and won't give a great 3D performance.

So in general, try to get 6600, 6800, 7600, 7800, etc. GT is also better than GS, but the GS models are usually very good price to performance compared to a GT unless you get a really good deal on the GT version.

Blaine Holm
02-06-2007, 09:31 AM
Well, based on nVidia's website, Newtek recommends the 84.26 driver for your card for LW and for VT. And the 84.26 driver is the latest driver for the Quadro NVS on nVidia's website. I would think that if it works for VT, it would work for SE, but only Newtek would really know.

Thing is, the Quadro line of cards are excellent OpenGL cards for applications like LW that use OpenGL. NLEs like VT and SE use DirectX for their magic, NOT OpenGL. That's why I think you'll find most users using the more common "gamer" type cards which are DirectX powerhouses, but not as strong at OpenGL.

That said, I would expect the Quadro line of cards to work with VT and SE, too, and based on VT being mentioned on nVidia's website, I would strongly believe that to be the case.

A lot of high-end workstations, like ones from Dell, only come with the Quadro card options. In fact, a friend of mine had a heck of a time finding a driver that would let him run both EDIUS 4 and Vegas 7 with the same driver, but eventually he found one.

I would say give Newtek Tech Support a call.

As has been stated here, the NVS series are a 2D line, with no DirectX acceleration at all and no OpenGL for 3D. You might as well have a MX400 in there.

Unfortunatley, howver built the syetem does not really understand video, but the card can be easily upgraded. I would suggest a GeForce 7600GT or a Quadro 1500.

paulfierlinger
02-09-2007, 03:24 PM
I just had my Quadros NVS replaced with the nVidia series 7 card Ray had recommended and the performance of both Vegas and SE was mediocre. We reinstalled the Quadros and driver and BANG, all went from mediocre to fabulous! Vegas performs perfectly, so probably does SE (I can't tell as well because I am not as familiar with the software yet).

Whatever problems I was encountering before are now gone by the mere act of uninstalling and removing the nVidia card and putting all back together again

Vegas now plays uncompressed 720p clips at real time without a glitch and better than the QT ones I have been using up until now. These avi clips do not play as well in SE though, which probably wants SpeedHQ files.

My conclusion is that I am staying with Vegas because there are a few things more I can do with the sound track and being in the middle of a big job I see little benefit at this time from undertaking another NLE learning curve.

I also like to have the three monitors and prefer the preview output of Vegas. In SE I am unnerved by not having a setting for 24 fps (the preview window says 29.970 even though SE seems to play whatever the clip it is playing is set to) and I don't like not having a dynamic readout of the current playback speed.

I'm going to keep playing with SE however when I have the time or have a smaller project to do.

Thanks to you all here on this forum for giving me your time and a valuable education in matters of codecs and other related subjects.

paulfierlinger
02-11-2007, 09:33 AM
My longtime computer builder and technical consultant jotted down a quick assessment of how he corrected my problem with SE's (and Vegas') poor performance and what he did to correct this, with the wishes of having me pass his conclusions onto this group.

hello paul, here's a hardware configuration, and troubleshooting of the whole problem.
Asus P5DLD2-Deluxe motherboard.
4GB DDR2 667mhz crucial memory
Intel dual core 3.4ghx cpu
3ware 8 channel sata II raid controller pci-e 4x
pny Quadro NVS 440x16 pco-e 16x
(2) 500gb sata II 7200rpm drives on board in mirror raid
(2) 500gb sata II on 3ware striped
(2) 500gb sata II on 3ware striped
external 500gb sata II USB 2.0 for archive and backup.

the original drivers that came with the nvs caused stability problems so switched to the latest drivers at the time. ran several performance test on drives including disk IO, cpu stress test, memory test. ran sisoft sandra and compared to similiar intel and amd based system performance statistics which was well above those similiar ratings.

vegas ran initially at full frames, mirage ran faster.
Problem: vegas running slow, mirage has issues. ( a update was done for IE7 and WM player along with some ssecurity updates)
removed the updates possible except those that would affect other programs and possibly cause other problems.
no change in performance.

from recommendations ordered the nvidia geforce 7950 GT. uninstalled the nvs drivers, shut down, removed the nvs, installed the 7950, powered up installed the drivers.
had paul run specific software and no change in performance.
removed the 7950 installed the nvs and powered up.
there we noticed pauls apps ran better and looked at the drivers and saw they were the drivers from the 7950. so we tested playback of quicktime and on scenes with panning or lots of delta's the framerate dropped. had paul test different codecs avi uncompressed, divx, mjpeg. the avi played back flawlessly. had paul comvert several quicktime clips to avi and confirmed playback was perfect.we surmised it was quicktime.

problem. tablet drawing showing blinking end on drawn line. went back to last driver used problem still persisted. had paul check cables and switch monitors 1 and 3 in reverse. problem gone.

will install the drivers from the 7950 on tuesday hopefully.

It has been my experience that all too many times software vendors point to it always being hardware when in fact it's a software issue. In pauls case it's a combination of newer drivers and not using quicktime to erase he problem.

now for the nvs card, I throughly researched this card in particular because he needed multiple monitors and it was a better idea to use one card rather than two cards. even though it's stated it's primary use is banking and financial is basically for multiple displays. we have delivered this card and it's variants to several banking and investment firms. the applications they use is not gpu intensive, they need it strictly for multiple displays. in additional to this I called nvidia, my distributor, and they confirrmed this card is fine for video editing. with card it's also fine as I've tested it with catia, autocad 2005 and 207 at a construction company we delivered a cad specific workstation to. the nvs gpu is a NV43 chip, the quadro 3000 series is a NV35GL chip. I compared the specs and the quadro 4000 series had a G71 chip.
thew nvs is a 11 micron die, the 3000 a 13 micron. it has a higher transisteer count than the 3K series but not the 5K series. also this card is fully directx and open gl compliant.
the nvs is equal or surpass's most the quadro cards excluding the quadro 5K series in vertex shaders, vertex pipelines, pixel /texture pipelines,and pixel shader version. ( this would be most beneficial if working in 3D, paul works in 2D so no real benificial gain there. the nvs has a core speed of 440mhz, the 3000 series a 400mhz speed and the 4000 a 375mhz core speed.
the areas it's weak in are focused in 3D such as geometry rate, fill rate, and a smaller memory bandwidth bus. but even with these deficits I have yet to have a complain from the construction company who's using it intensivly.
while I'm not a video guru, I do work with video occaisionally, and play and dabble with various editing and dvd production suites. some expensive, some cheap.
as for codecs, quicktime has it's plus being it creats a smaller file, it's con, decompression is cpu intensive. avi, larger file size, less cpu intensive.

So Problem: poor performance.
Solution : update drivers, use avi instead of Qtime.

radams
02-11-2007, 12:14 PM
Hi Paul,

Thanks for sharing...

I do need to mention thou...that this may be fine for Vegas...

But SE is going to be using the GPU's to do its magic...and will rely on it even more in the future...so will Vegas.

Your IT guy is correct that older NLE's can use the NVS without issues...especially those that only rely on 2D throughput and processing...but those that use OpenGL or the newer ones with GPU's as coprocessors...then the NVS is NOT up to the spec.

I agree that drivers are a MAJOR issue for performance and stability...which I am glad that you have resolved those huge issues getting in the way of being productive.

But I do need to stand by my comments...and those of NewTek's in regard to SE and GPU's.

1) SE is desgined to use GPU processing
2) SE works best with being run on a native 16 lane PCI Express for bandwidth and throughput.
NVS does NOT take full advantage of 16 lane PCI Express

The GPU in the 7950 is three generations + ahead of the NVS GPU.

For those setting up new systems with SE...the 7950...is a good card to go with...and if you need more than two monitors then go SLI dual 7950...then you'll have 4 outputs.

For the record, Paul, I am not saying what your IT guy did was wrong...he did put together a nice system for you and did alot of research...but I think he didn't fully understand the applications Software need inregards to SE or Vegas.

In todays graphic & GPU oriented applications....this is going to become even more of an issue..Heck now Vista along with OS10...all build GPU processing into the OS...why, cause that is where things are and are going.

I would not be surprised that in the future that even Mirage will use GPU processing...

I would love to chat with you IT guy...he has done alot for you and I commend him for all that he's done. I think if he had a chat with Andrew, or John Perkins...he might be better to assist you in the future with SE.

Again, Thanks for the info...and please pass on my congratulations to your IT guy for helping you find and resolve those nasty issues that effected your production.

Cheers,

radams
02-11-2007, 12:43 PM
Hi Again,

I wanted to say...that I will also check back into the NVS...since it looks like Nvidia has updated somethings and the GPU....

When the NVS came out...it was equivalant to the GPUs on the Geforce 5 series... and the Mid range QuadroFX's cards are equivalant to the geforce 6 series....with the higher end equivalant to the 7 series... at least in regards to the GPUs onboard...

The big differences between them is that on the QuadroFX and NVS...there are additional operations done in Hardware...vs in software on the Geforce cards...also there is addditional driver support dedicated to optimize specific applications...such as those with CAD and OpenGL based apps...
At least this is what I've understood from my research over the years with Nvidia.

Cheers,

paulfierlinger
02-11-2007, 02:33 PM
Thanks Ray. I'm curious to see what you come up with. The Quadro NVS I believe didn't even have a driver upgrade listed and we discovered that the 7950's driver worked only by accident.

ScorpioProd
02-11-2007, 05:37 PM
But SE is going to be using the GPU's to do its magic...and will rely on it even more in the future...so will Vegas.

But I do need to stand by my comments...and those of NewTek's in regard to SE and GPU's.

1) SE is desgined to use GPU processing
2) SE works best with being run on a native 16 lane PCI Express for bandwidth and throughput.


Ray, though I totally agree with you on the second point, about PCI Express being needed for SE to work best, I gotta ask, where do you get the first point from?

I've heard you say this before, but in every conversation I've ever had with Dr. Andrew Cross or John Perkins about this, SpeedEDIT does NOT use GPU processing, as in any type of co-processing sort of thing. So I honestly don't see Newtek claiming this to be the case.

I think it is logical to believe all NLEs will in the future, but SpeedEDIT as of right now does not.

radams
02-11-2007, 06:19 PM
John has made comments on this open forum before that GPU's and PCI express are going to be needed for SE performance...and that the future of SE will be going down the GPU road...

Cheers,

rbartlett
02-12-2007, 01:19 AM
I'd say the mix up is between he overall I/O processing channel between the CPU and the graphics card, which is significantly uplifted with PCIexpress. This buys back if nothing else, bus bandwidth and headroom.

As for using or not using the GPU. Well, this may be indirect usage. You may be driving the metal with a directx routine that shades or redimensions a pixel, surface or texture channel. If that functionality, especially the shading of video, isn't natively combined by the card/driver-support then it will be slower if the CPU has to help along the way.

VT and SE have 3D graphics card requirements and optimally on the latest hardware (with any onboard accelerated or not graphics) disabled. Good things have been said about Intel X3000 graphics, but lets assume they don't exist and that we need a good directx (why not OpenGL too.... often it follows for the lower end) card. 0.25GB of memory infers a recent GPU etc....

Even 2.5D can need a little more than a generic AGP4X 2D card, if that help this post give further clarity? Not that I'm certain that it needs to.

Vegas (apart from when using 3rd party plug-ins like BorisFX, vdub/avs and Wax) uses only 2D functions as of all versions up to and including 7. An AGP 2x card with 32MB of RAM for dual head is ample. It isn't as cutting edge in the throughput department as any NewTek products, IMHO.