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jin choung
01-30-2007, 11:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nice6NYb_WA&NR

say goodbye to ever modeling a human face again!

jin

riki
01-30-2007, 11:41 PM
aah very cool

Speedmonk42
01-31-2007, 12:32 AM
well ****** ****** *** ****** (i'll just put the stars in myself)

geothefaust
01-31-2007, 12:36 AM
I was shown this video the other day. I still don't know what to think of it, though.

EagleWing
01-31-2007, 12:48 AM
i'd LOVE that program.
it's awesome haha.
what is it called?

EagleWing
01-31-2007, 12:50 AM
http://www.mpi-sb.mpg.de/~blanz/

check this out too.

jin choung
01-31-2007, 12:58 AM
"I was shown this video the other day. I still don't know what to think of it, though."

well, it figures out the morphs necessary to get to a SINGLE view of a photo... that's pretty frickin' decisively amazing if you ask me!

wow, this pixel flow technology is popping up everywhere nowadays.

jin

jin choung
01-31-2007, 01:04 AM
oh... and this ability to generate a 3d mesh from a SINGLE VIEW is going to make face recognition processes much more accurate i would think! say from an ATM machine camera or the lenses of federal agents aimed into the superbowl stands!

everything being reducible to a comparison to a 3d mesh!

here comes big brother! bum bum bummmmmm....

:)

jin

oDDity
01-31-2007, 02:31 AM
This is not amazing new technology.
As far as 3d goes, it's has no more use than facegen, which has been around for years ,and does pretty much the same thing, with the same predictable, instantly recognisable results. THe only difference is that facegen prefers a front and side shot of a face insetad oif a 3/4.
'Thats' a facegen head' is the first thing you think when you see one, because they're just low res generic face meshs, with a photo texture pasted onto them, and it's the photo texture that's doing all the work.
So. it's only useful for people who either can't model, can't afford a modeler, or need a huge number of heads quickly and aren't too worried about the quality (in the way Bethesda used facegen for Oblivion)

jin choung
01-31-2007, 02:41 AM
take a look at that tom hanks head! that is neither low res or using a texture as a crutch! look at it!

sure, there are lots of photogrammetric modeling things and they have indeed relied upon multiple orthogonal views...

CHECK OUT WHAT THAT APP IS DOING to get to the tom hanks head!!! we have NOT seen that before!

the fact that it is using a SINGLE PIC of ARBITRARY ANGLE... you note that as being incidental... but it is NOT!

i am all for artistry and modeling and all that... but this software is not something we've seen before and can't be dismissed easily or creditably.

jin

p.s. to address a sentiment that i think i caught - i HATE poser. i am not in favor of cookie cutter slap dash work.... but this app seems like it would be an amazing app to do digital doubles for hollywood actors and such.

bobakabob
01-31-2007, 02:49 AM
Very impressive technology... but isn't it really Poser on steroids? It takes the craft out of 3D.

Dirk
01-31-2007, 03:06 AM
OMG!

Awesome. Crazy. I want that in LW ^^

jin choung
01-31-2007, 03:09 AM
"Very impressive technology... but isn't it really Poser on steroids? It takes the craft out of 3D."

but poser always looks like poser. if it did not, if you could not tell, then we would be having a different discussion.... poser is bad just because it has a signature look and is not unmistakable from reality....

regarding your point about craft - i agree.

but so does motion capture.

there are MANY situations where it would not be appropriate to use (for a pixar character for instance).

BUT

there are many times where all you want is a "replication" of an actor and his movements.

we don't want or need anyone's artistry - no injection of personality needed, no caricature, no exaggeration, no "take"... we just want to not be able to tell that that guy is not that guy!

so digital standins, digital stunt doubles, where humans are supposed to be human... those are the applications where mocap (and something like this) would make total sense.

after all, if you want to build a car or building, taking a scan or the cad model or blueprints just makes sense.

jin

jin choung
01-31-2007, 03:35 AM
oh... duh... and the more obvious analogy-

they do CYBERSCANS of actors now for digital standins... they don't hand model from scratch y'know....

jin

Dirk
01-31-2007, 03:51 AM
we don't want or need anyone's artistry - no injection of personality needed, no caricature, no exaggeration, no "take"... we just want to not be able to tell that that guy is not that guy!

I would go even further.

For me, 3D is a way to make things that I couldn't do otherwise. I could not model a head into the shape of Tom Hank's head, or maybe it would take forever, and the results wouldn't be as good as they would be with this software.

I prefer to create cartoon characters, monsters or robots; things that come out of my imagination.

But if I need human faces, I would prefer to use software like this. Why should I waste who know how many hours to model a head, if a software can create better results in some seconds?

And since the software allows to "mix" faces and expressions; there is a creative aspect in it, too. For example, when creating the main character of a computer game, with a software like this, we could choose between a nearly unlimited number of face, and find the one that really matches.

EagleWing
01-31-2007, 04:30 AM
But if I need human faces, I would prefer to use software like this. Why should I waste who know how many hours to model a head, if a software can create better results in some seconds?

And since the software allows to "mix" faces and expressions; there is a creative aspect in it, too. For example, when creating the main character of a computer game, with a software like this, we could choose between a nearly unlimited number of face, and find the one that really matches.

I toally agree with you here but I can also see the other side of it, doing it yourself can teach you a lot about manually manipulating the model in ways that the software can't, after all you can only get the 3d model the software makes to look certain ways because you are morphing between faces, you might want to adjust something specific on the face and hence you can learn a few things.
But obviously software titles like this makes the job a WHOLE lot easier, I honestly think it's just like the idea of robots doing the jobs of humans to the extent that what would humas be needed for. if someone now creates a software title that makes 3d cars and other objects the same way, we will all be superfluous.

Creating models as detailed and as accurate as this software can do would take you AGES in comparison and that is the reason it will be loved mainly I expect.

However I'd still love to see a full animation which this software or similar ones were used to create then we would see it's true potential.
Maybe they should make one for creating the FULL body now hehe.

oDDity
01-31-2007, 04:32 AM
"Very impressive technology... but isn't it really Poser on steroids? It takes the craft out of 3D."

but poser always looks like poser. if it did not, if you could not tell, then we would be having a different discussion.... poser is bad just because it has a signature look and is not unmistakable from reality....

regarding your point about craft - i agree.

but so does motion capture.

there are MANY situations where it would not be appropriate to use (for a pixar character for instance).

BUT

there are many times where all you want is a "replication" of an actor and his movements.

we don't want or need anyone's artistry - no injection of personality needed, no caricature, no exaggeration, no "take"... we just want to not be able to tell that that guy is not that guy!

so digital standins, digital stunt doubles, where humans are supposed to be human... those are the applications where mocap (and something like this) would make total sense.

after all, if you want to build a car or building, taking a scan or the cad model or blueprints just makes sense.

jin

Don't be ridiculous, this can't model any detail at all, it's just a generic mesh molded into the shape of a photo. For digital doubles, they'll need detailed digital sculpts, not a bland model with a photo pasted onto it like this.
It's good for nothing but medium quality game engines. Next gen game engines wouldn't even use it, since they also require detailed sculpts.
I suppose it might be useful for getting a base mesh to start sculpting on, but then any modeler could make one himself from photos in an hour anyway, and it would have a polyflow tailored to that individual face, rather than the same generic polyflow and morphs that this app throws up, and anyway the future trend is to downsample from the high res sculpt.

kopperdrake
01-31-2007, 05:11 AM
Oh yes - nothing worse than a generic mesh flow to create a workable pipeline :rolleyes:

Where my wife works the deadlines producing games is shrinking, the teams are expanding and the budgets need to go further. To get a face scan of say, Keira Knightley, takes ages - as does anything that involves high-profile actors, and to sit and model an actor also takes time, especially when it comes down to much pushing and pulling from the publishers/actors' agents on the style of the model. Sure, talented artists can do it but it does take time. To be able to get a quick mesh like this from a photograph, even if it needs tweaking afterwards to better define and create, spec maps, normal maps and whatever else you nee to throw in, I imagine it is hugely invaluable. There is also the political trump card in that it is *based* on the actual actor.

Artistic integrity is all well and good, but few games companies can afford to take such luxury on a large scale...I imagine any way to streamline the process would be welcomed.

On a sidenote oDDity, are you sure this doesn't give you high-detail meshes? If this iteration doesn't then I am 100% sure future versions will else what's the point?

StereoMike
01-31-2007, 05:19 AM
another thread, perhaps some addtional info
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61515

btw, oddy, you're wrong

Kuzey
01-31-2007, 05:32 AM
There was another one shown on bbc's click program from the recent CES, that looked much better and it was done with a single photo. Didn't anybody see it, it had a photo backdrop but when the camera view changed you would see the super smooth mesh in front of it and when the camera was head on to photo the mesh blended back into the photo.

Anyway, didn't someone already post the Tom Hanks vid awhile back :hey:

Kuzey

bobakabob
01-31-2007, 05:33 AM
Jin, Thanks for posting btw - interesting debate. Agreed, facemorph technology, like mocap would be very useful for commercial productions beset by pressing deadlines.

The danger is that the individual artistry and skill of 3D modellers is undervalued. More productions are going to look like clones churned out on a production line.

Call me a cynic but too many big budget projects these days end up mediocre as everything from script to production design is reduced to a formula.

Despite this, thankfully, no software package has yet invented imagination. Rather than trying to slavishly copy reality it's always refreshing to see 3D art which does the opposite.

DiedonD
01-31-2007, 05:48 AM
Can you just go ahead and buy the software? Or is it one of them "Look at what nice tehnology we have, and just look at what technologu has come to, BUT ITS NOT AVAILABLE FOR YOU! You ask when will it be... Well, it will be soon (As in indefinitely)"

Ive seen alot of very very useful technologies. Most where linked to me in this forum, that were useful. But since I coldnt contact anyone regarding getting my hands on the software, I even came to conclusion that they might not even exist. I mean, what if this is just a show in itself? Someone makes these models and renders them to make believe that something like that exists!

kopperdrake
01-31-2007, 06:17 AM
I do agree Bob concerning your worry about the integrity of the individual's artistic input, but then I imagine the games titles who would use this generally aren't pushing the imagination envelope by way of character development, although that being said it might still prove useful as a starting mesh. The direction of the games industry is a whole other topic which sounds like I may share your concerns over ;)

Dirk
01-31-2007, 06:32 AM
I think software like this will be the future of character design in 95% of all cases where human characters are involved.

Even if for example the morphs of the generic face do not translate well to a new face, there's always the option to refine them.

Makes me wonder how character design and character animation will evolve in the future...

metahumanity
01-31-2007, 06:42 AM
Can you just go ahead and buy the software? Or is it one of them "Look at what nice tehnology we have, and just look at what technologu has come to, BUT ITS NOT AVAILABLE FOR YOU! You ask when will it be... Well, it will be soon (As in indefinitely)"

Ive seen alot of very very useful technologies. Most where linked to me in this forum, that were useful. But since I coldnt contact anyone regarding getting my hands on the software, I even came to conclusion that they might not even exist. I mean, what if this is just a show in itself? Someone makes these models and renders them to make believe that something like that exists!


While Iīm not a programmer, I can eaxsily imagine how itīs possible to extrapolate a very accurate 3d shape of a very generic form (face) from one photo, so itīs not like we are talking about magic. The same applies to the textures.

I can see itīs usefullness for professional and artistic work, absolutely.

As for the tech not appearing commercially (for now), I wouldnīt be too surprised if it had been already snatched by some sort of biggy like the FBI or a big fx studio.

oDDity
01-31-2007, 08:05 AM
On a sidenote oDDity, are you sure this doesn't give you high-detail meshes? If this iteration doesn't then I am 100% sure future versions will else what's the point?

No, it can't produce a detailed model that an artist would sculpt in zbrush or mudbox, and that's where things are headed. What it does is project a photo onto a generic model, and you could easily do that yourself.
I could have a base mesh uv mapped that I could quickly tweak to the shape of any face and texture with a photo, but I'm not sure why anyone would want that painting by numbers produce, other than cheap productions which don't care about quality.
Those people already have facegen, but I suppose if they're so ****ing lazy or incompetent that they can even be bothered finding a front and side photo to use in facegen, then they can use this app instead.
Good luck to them, they obviously need it.

oDDity
01-31-2007, 08:14 AM
another thread, perhaps some addtional info
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61515

btw, oddy, you're wrong

Wrong am I?
I'm currently working on for a next gen game company, and they're paying me money to sculpt high res human heads, so I wonder why they'd be wasting money like this when they can just buy facegen and knock out a dozen generic meshes.
Hmmm.
No one, but the cheapest and most desperate people, want this this crap, that's why.

jbarker
01-31-2007, 09:05 AM
Wrong am I?
I'm currently working on for a next gen game company, and they're paying me money to sculpt high res human heads, so I wonder why they'd be wasting money like this when they can just buy facegen and knock out a dozen generic meshes.
Hmmm.
No one, but the cheapest and most desperate people, want this this crap, that's why.

C'mere oDDity. You seem tense. Let me give you a hug. There, there let it aaallll out. That's right. Deep breaths. Better?

Okay, who wants ice cream?

Dirk
01-31-2007, 10:29 AM
I don't know which approach is the most promising or will be used most in the end, but creating a human face in 3D will be automated.

Take a look at "Face Robot", for example. The software comes with the ability to export faces for game engines. Softimage wouldn't create such a software (and try to sell it for about 95.000 Dollars), if they would think there is no demand for it.

Speedmonk42
01-31-2007, 10:31 AM
No one, but the cheapest and most desperate people, want this this crap, that's why.
------------------

Ok... but desperate? I may not be working for a 'next gen' game company but I can think of loads of fun uses for this.

If I could quickly for fun crank out creepy Christmas cards for my friends and family with them in it, it might JUST weird them out enough I stop getting invitations to family gatherings I would rather avoid.

Your boss + animals?

The list is long.

badllarma
01-31-2007, 10:46 AM
Facegen is this ones little brother but the texturing is poor but it does export a full 3D model with morphs into Lightwave :)

cresshead
01-31-2007, 10:56 AM
facegen's pretty neat actually..great for mid res heads...not ace for closeup work and it does have it's limitations agreed...also facegen is having an update this year too, so i've heard so higher rez textures are on the cards for it amongst other things...

as always facegen is 'a tool' and does what it sets out to achieve...hand modeling heads is also still relevent and will be for some time so oddity won't be out of work anytime soon..z brush and mudbox skills are currently in high demand in games and films for normal mapped heads/characters.

still remains that facegen like oddity should really not be kocked so harshly...
the programmers who made it have done a pretty good job for that app...compare facegen to the other 'head apps' such as life studio, head designer and facial studio and facegen give the best head from them.

of course oddity wouldn't be seen anywhere near a facegen workstation!
...he'd feel the urge to pull the plug!:D

AbnRanger
01-31-2007, 11:14 AM
...head designer and facial studio and facegen give the best head from them...

Watch it Cress:twak: ...that phrase is somewhat x-rated on this side of the pond. :D

cresshead
01-31-2007, 11:21 AM
LOL!
i REALLY need to re read what i type somedays!.....yeah in usa i surpose it has a slightly different meaning....no doubt that oddity makes good...errr. ...let me re phase it...makes clean/detailed models of 3d faces!

Bog
01-31-2007, 05:00 PM
I'd quite fancy a peice of software for doing boring, repetative stuff like head modelling. It's not like it really requires talent, just a mechanical knowledge of the skeletal and musculature structure of the face - it's an algo solve, not an artistic solve.

TheDynamo
01-31-2007, 05:53 PM
With a program like this dealing with the low resolution that regular broadcast tv is (in relation to HD that is). It's possible to see people like Thomas Edison actually selling a new motorola wingding. Or accidentally leak video footage of a political rival (or what appears to be one) doing something that could be damaging to his campaign. Ronald McDonald smoking a joint outside the back of a charity appearance... Ok that last one would be worth seeing :devil:

The possibilities are frightening at the sheer amount of misinformation that could occur.

-Dyn

P.S. Sure the majority of us on the boards could tell the difference between this and the real deal but how about Bob & Susie Averagejoe down the street.

Dave Jerrard
02-01-2007, 07:16 AM
I remember seeing this on a siggraph video back in 2000 or 2001. It's been around for quite a while now. There's better stuff out there these days, but I doubt it's going to beat the old fashioned method of modeling it by hand. Even laser scanners have their limits.


He Who Hasn't Seen That Video In Years Now.

T-Light
02-01-2007, 08:12 AM
Someone said that this was originaly posted in 99??? (was on another site).

Here's the chaps website who's behind all this. Didn't read any applications on there, maybe we'll see it filter through to new apps some time over the coming months/years.

http://www.mpi-sb.mpg.de/~blanz/

ps Cress, thanks for the facegen gives 'good head' tip :D :D :D, gonna have to take a look at that software :D

cresshead
02-01-2007, 10:06 AM
here's my results from facegen

http://support.discreet.com/webboard/wbpx.dll/%7E3dsmax/upload/virtual%20craig%20encer.JPG

http://support.discreet.com/webboard/wbpx.dll/%7E3dsmax/upload/cressVR.JPG

http://support.discreet.com/webboard/wbpx.dll/upload/mikeVR.JPG

http://support.discreet.com/webboard/wbpx.dll/%7E3dsmax/upload/3d%5Fvirtual%5Fsalina.jpg

http://support.discreet.com/webboard/wbpx.dll/%7E3dsmax/upload/samVR%5Ffin.JPG

now oddity will not like them but i think they're pretty neat for a mid resolution head

badllarma
02-01-2007, 10:29 AM
Very nice!

I wasn't having ago at Facgen BTW I think it saves a **** load of work and once they work on the higher res texturing it will be a VERY good tool :)

Stooch
02-01-2007, 10:35 AM
Don't be ridiculous, this can't model any detail at all, it's just a generic mesh molded into the shape of a photo. For digital doubles, they'll need detailed digital sculpts, not a bland model with a photo pasted onto it like this.
It's good for nothing but medium quality game engines. Next gen game engines wouldn't even use it, since they also require detailed sculpts.
I suppose it might be useful for getting a base mesh to start sculpting on, but then any modeler could make one himself from photos in an hour anyway, and it would have a polyflow tailored to that individual face, rather than the same generic polyflow and morphs that this app throws up, and anyway the future trend is to downsample from the high res sculpt.

keep telling yourself that. lol

I think it could be a great tool, especially when dealing with massive crowds where you dont want to sit there and sculpt each face. but i could see how this tech would upset you personally. hahahah.

CMT
02-01-2007, 11:27 AM
I think this is a cool piece of software. But I have to agree with oDD, though that because of it's limitations digital doubles will need much more detail to be convincing in something like movies where likenesses are needed to convince the viewer that it is actually the actor.

One problem I see with using it is that everyone ends up having the same expression. You'd have to go in and tweak it for the main character models. Maybe it could help speed things up a little in that regards.

But personally I agree it's more like poser. I don't see any artistic merit in it. Pretty much click a button, get a face. A face which looks like someone who already exists. Not that it's a bad thing for a production environment.


...anyway the future trend is to downsample from the high res sculpt.

That, I'm not so sure of yet. Pixologic is using mesh projection in their next update for ZBrush. Basically, the high poly model wouldn't have to have perfect polyflow to start with. It can be sculpted to detail and then with the new topology tools draw a new low poly model overtop the sculpted model with proper flow. Then project the sculpted detail onto the new low poly mesh. I think that's probably the way things will go. It's one less technical thing for a digital sculptor to worry about and they can move on to the next thing. Let the technical specialists deal with polyflow.

StereoMike
02-01-2007, 11:44 AM
Basically, the high poly model wouldn't have to have perfect polyflow to start with. It can be sculpted to detail and then with the new topology tools draw a new low poly model overtop the sculpted model with proper flow.

Makes perfect sense for 3D scanned objects/ actors. Why should a company spend riches on a skilled guy who models the faces by hand, if they can get it cheaper and even quicker if they scan the actor and let Average Joe do the topology brushing.

mike

slackadocious
02-01-2007, 11:49 AM
Heres what i have to say:

The software is clearly quite powerful. A lot can be done in a short amount of time, this much is obvious. It is notable that 3d modelers in the traditional sense invest a lot of time, effort and creativity into the wires for their face (or any) models.

However it should not be over looked that the software engineers that have developed facegen and similar apps are as good at their job as any modeler is at his. The fact is that the math and algorithms coded by the programmers of such software required as much time, effort, thought and creativity as any manually constructed wire mesh.

Criticize the quality of the end models all you want, but i'd like to see some of you (odd) sit down and code a program that is capable of meeting your high standards... It wont happen.

if anything better does come out, you'll still criticize it, simply because you'll still believe you could do a better job manually, whether its true or not.

Why not just admire this software for what it is, a shortcut that could save a lot a businesses a lot of time... and whats wrong with that? Not everyone is in business to make high art.

StereoMike
02-01-2007, 12:01 PM
Not everyone is in business to make high art.

I wonder if even Oddy sees himself as artist. I think he refuses to tell himself artist. Makes sense, he's just good at clicking and swirling the mouse and pressing a key every now and then, right?

mike

CMT
02-01-2007, 12:11 PM
Criticize the quality of the end models all you want, but i'd like to see some of you (odd) sit down and code a program that is capable of meeting your high standards... It wont happen.

Well, that's the point isn't it? To have the best looking models you can get that seperate your game from the next. A software that lets you create faces like like an assembly line will only give you the same as anyone else who's using it. That's where the modelers come in.


if anything better does come out, you'll still criticize it, simply because you'll still believe you could do a better job manually, whether its true or not.

It's true. Modelers can do a better job manually. But because a modeler can create much more detailed models which look unique won't help if that modeler takes too long doing it.


Why not just admire this software for what it is, a shortcut that could save a lot a businesses a lot of time... and whats wrong with that? Not everyone is in business to make high art.

Exactly. Game companies are more interested in creating a finished product that looks decent enough to sell than a half finished one that looks phenominal.

cresshead
02-01-2007, 01:43 PM
just to let you know it takes around 5mins to get a facegen head underway...20-30 mins later the computer calculates the textures and profiles and squirts out a finished 3d model complete with textures.. not a fantastic head like that of such great modelers as oddity but a functional head complete with 40 morph targets in an 1 click exported lwo model.

it's an option...it not perfect...but it 'will do' for some tasks.

jojolimited
02-01-2007, 08:30 PM
Hmm, if this thing could handle 2k or higher images it could be applied to something very much needed, foreign language dubbing. So when Tom Hanks is speaking German, his face and mouth will look like he's speaking German, or Italian, or Japanese.

oDDity
02-02-2007, 03:43 AM
just to let you know it takes around 5mins to get a facegen head underway...20-30 mins later the computer calculates the textures and profiles and squirts out a finished 3d model complete with textures.. not a fantastic head like that of such great modelers as oddity but a functional head complete with 40 morph targets in an 1 click exported lwo model.

it's an option...it not perfect...but it 'will do' for some tasks.

Exactly. That's what I said, it's perfect for cheap, shoddy productions with no semblance of integrity remaining, or if you need a huge number of generic heads, such as the RPG Oblivion, and I agree that facegen was a good choice for them.
However, this type of painting by numbers software is never going to be mainstream in CG studios - though I suppose it would mean they could start employing chimpanzees instead of humans to press the buttons.
One skilled artists wages buys a lot of peanuts and bananas.


That, I'm not so sure of yet. Pixologic is using mesh projection in their next update for ZBrush. Basically, the high poly model wouldn't have to have perfect polyflow to start with. It can be sculpted to detail and then with the new topology tools draw a new low poly model overtop the sculpted model with proper flow. Then project the sculpted detail onto the new low poly mesh. I think that's probably the way things will go. It's one less technical thing for a digital sculptor to worry about and they can move on to the next thing. Let the technical specialists deal with polyflow.
Well, that's exactly what I was saying in another thread, but of course, bog, being an industry expert, knew better. As far as he's concerned, you have to be a highly skilled TD to get a job as a digital sculptor. :stumped:

jin choung
02-02-2007, 05:14 AM
Exactly. That's what I said, it's perfect for cheap, shoddy productions with no semblance of integrity remaining, or if you need a huge number of generic heads, such as the RPG Oblivion, and I agree that facegen was a good choice for them.
However, this type of painting by numbers software is never going to be mainstream in CG studios

you do realize that cg studios don't model actors from scratch right? cyberscans?

also, i think there's too much emphasis being placed on "hi res".... with the exception of the wildly successful doc oc drowning shot in spiderman 2, very few times is a cg version of an actor full screen (and for good reason) or for very long.

usually they are mid to far distance with massive motion blur. so the hires thing is a red herring.

besides, if you subd it, a clean mid res (heck even low res), can be suitably hires with a normal/bump/displacement map in a jiff.

sculpting and hand modeling is great for caricaturized stuff. after all, as someone else mentioned, photoreal humans are not the end all be all of cg work. (in fact, if you CAN shoot the people, you probably should!). oh and CREATURES. those are where the hires really goes a long way anyway... the zbrush stuff is many times just showing off hires like they're addicted to it. how many supermodels (or even hollywood actresses [or actors under 50]) have the lines, wrinkles, divots, pock marks, scales, crusts and whatnot that zbrush users love to sculpt?

also, really take a look at that tom hanks mesh when it is untextured.... for most movie purposes (like the cg standins for lotr movies), that's just about ready to go.

again, in my book, wherever mocap is appropriate (and i've firmly stated it is not at all universally!), these kinds of automated face captures (through software or cyberscans) are as well.

jin

t4d
02-02-2007, 05:21 AM
it's all about the budget

Not all of us have HUGE budgets for a task
I imagen ILM, DD etc have maybe $50 000 or $100 000 or maybe alot more for that 5 or 10 second feature film shot,. with that you can do alot and spend alot of time on details

Well I don't live in that world, you have your hero ( all the money gets spent them ) then you have the background characters ( budget get hammered over these guys ) and that's where Facegen and these softwares come in.

I would love to hire you oddity And maybe one day i will your a great artist.
but the Real world, real budgets and real clients ( some Want they CG to look like CG ) makes things alot more complex ,.

how ILM and the top shelf studios do things is not how it is for the rest of us.

and maybe we are happy that way. ( abit like I say the X word and some are happy with :lwicon: ) no one is wrong they just different opinions based on the work they have infront of them.

use the right tool for the job,. be it a top level artist or a Off the shelf face creation package. no one is doing it wrong, they all just need different things.

colkai
02-02-2007, 07:04 AM
Put it simply, on a budget and deadline, how thrilled would the boss be if you spent forever on one model doing high-art detailing and super-realism for a character that is only ever seen from a distance?
Consider the time wasted not just in modelling this, but in the time rendering it's poly count on each frame instead of handling a lower-res mesh that would suffice. For production work, you do what needs to be done in the time and budget allotted. If the likes of Facegen speed the creation of background / stunt actors up, that's more time to spend of hero shots.

Keeping one's high principles and integrity is not so much fun if you lose your job in the process, it's a part of real-world constraints. One doesn't have to like it, one may even desire the chance to have made things better, you may even be a little embarrassed by the results you're forced to "let go" at deadline time, but when all is said and done, you gotta deal with the constraints you're operating within on the job.

Of course, if not doing it for a production job, no reason at all not to allow yourself to go ape over the level of detail and perfection you're after, but when it's part of "day-job" duties, you don't normally get that level of luxury.

That pretty much holds true for many other types of work too.

CMT
02-02-2007, 08:57 AM
usually they are mid to far distance with massive motion blur. so the hires thing is a red herring.

Even with 3d scanning an actor's head, 99.9% of the time it still doesn't look right up close. Very few CG artists are capable of creating the perfect lighting and the detail necessary to make an up close shot convincing for a digital double. It's not just about scanning an accurate model. It's about getting the right expressions from it to sell it. Hi detailed models aren't the issue there. But we aren't that far off from creating a great human cg character and it coming across as convincing up close and doing it with software only for movie purposes.

However, with the new tools coming out though, I can forsee that an actor gets his face scanned multple times for expressions and that data could be quickly used as morph targets without modelers getting involved. I don't really know how it's done now, but I know that it will get easier and be just a click of the mouse in the future. The digital double assembly line isn't far off. I think that's sad, because the movie business becomes less personal and more of a technical process and takes some of the artistry out of it.


the zbrush stuff is many times just showing off hires like they're addicted to it. how many supermodels (or even hollywood actresses [or actors under 50]) have the lines, wrinkles, divots, pock marks, scales, crusts and whatnot that zbrush users love to sculpt?

Not sure why you said that, but actresses have wrinkles, divots, moles, just like every other real human. Maybe not scales or crust (I'd never watch a movie with a crusty actress). But you've seen the clay maquettes they have created for movies? They are just as detailed as those ZBrush sculpts you seem to look down on. So I don't know what your point is here.


also, really take a look at that tom hanks mesh when it is untextured.... for most movie purposes (like the cg standins for lotr movies), that's just about ready to go.

I couldn't see it... the clip was too low resolution for me to make that judgement.

cresshead
02-02-2007, 09:49 AM
i read in a past film fx article that ILM charge $50,000 per second of footage
running at 24fps with shots they also gave 24 frames pre and post on shots over 10 seconds

:D

bobakabob
02-02-2007, 10:24 AM
I do agree Bob concerning your worry about the integrity of the individual's artistic input, but then I imagine the games titles who would use this generally aren't pushing the imagination envelope by way of character development, although that being said it might still prove useful as a starting mesh. The direction of the games industry is a whole other topic which sounds like I may share your concerns over ;)

Kopperdrake,

Cheers - I can definitely see the need for professionals to speed up character creation with software like this when faced with extreme deadline doom. Personally, though I prefer to build things from first principles with original generic meshes for my own freelance work I've never been against apps like Poser / Facegen.

However with the rare exception I still get a sinking feeling seeing the formulaic mediocre images most of these apps produce. I agree with the paint by numbers analogy - they're bereft of any artistry or individualism. Even the automated 'caricature' feature looks contrived.

Still this software has its place and truly talented artists will no doubt show its true potential. I'm looking more and more away from digital art that copies reality. The great thing about 3D is that it can create impossible worlds.

jin choung
02-02-2007, 10:54 AM
Not sure why you said that, but actresses have wrinkles, divots, moles, just like every other real human. Maybe not scales or crust (I'd never watch a movie with a crusty actress). But you've seen the clay maquettes they have created for movies? They are just as detailed as those ZBrush sculpts you seem to look down on. So I don't know what your point is here.


oh goodness... i certainly don't look down on zbrush artists!

but odd's just making such a deal out of it... that's why i'm countering that if you're replicating an actor or actress, you simply don't need that much HIGH FREQUENCY, hires detail. sure, they've got lines but precious little wrinkles and not many divots!

yeah, and the clay maquettes... absolutely, they're never of actors and actresses though. they're of creatures which is a perfect application for zbrush or mudbox.

if you take a LIFECAST of lindsay lohan's face, i'm fairly sure you could make an accurate model using NURBS for goodness sakes....


It's not just about scanning an accurate model. It's about getting the right expressions from it to sell it. Hi detailed models aren't the issue there.

right. the only time i couldn't tell was with the dock ock drowning shot. the second sentence in your quote is my point.

so that's my point. it should be fairly uncontroversial imo.

jin

Stooch
02-02-2007, 11:34 AM
Well, that's the point isn't it? To have the best looking models you can get that seperate your game from the next. A software that lets you create faces like like an assembly line will only give you the same as anyone else who's using it. That's where the modelers come in..

When is the last time anyone bought a game specifically for the modeling quality of faces? Sounds to me like uber geek technobabble.

oDDity
02-02-2007, 12:45 PM
Well, the pro-painting by numbers proponent's main argument seems to be the time Vs quality one in which everyone is desperate to make a quick buck, and the quicker the better, regardless of anything else.
For a start, that's such a grim view of the future, you could make a horror movie about it, and secondly, I can model a high res head in a working day anyway, and I'm sure there are more experienced sculptor who can do it faster. Therefore, that argument doesn't really stand up.
Surely these people must have real modelers on their staff to do everything apart from auto generate the heads, so they're paying them anyway, and unless they need the heads yesterday, it doesn't make much sense to generate generic ones.

CMT
02-02-2007, 12:49 PM
When is the last time anyone bought a game specifically for the modeling quality of faces? Sounds to me like uber geek technobabble.

I didn't say anything about buying a game just because the models look pretty. Make sure you understand what is written before you classify it as "technobabble".

bobakabob
02-02-2007, 03:39 PM
OK - accepting that in the high pressure competitive world of games and film this technology is bound to come in useful.

What possible job satisfaction could you have working on a games / film assembly line if just pushing a button creates an instant (mediocre) model head? Why not work in a sandwich shop?

Where's the vision or artistry?

Andyjaggy
02-02-2007, 07:14 PM
I can see some occasions where it could be usefull. Overall it reflects the general state of the gaming industry at the moment. Crank out as many cheap and thoughtless games as you can, just to bring in as much money as you possibly can. I know it's a business but could we please get some new creative inventive ideas out there. I don't know it just seems like a rarity these days that there is a game I am actually willing to spend money on.

jin choung
02-02-2007, 09:32 PM
this thought made me laugh just now....

you guys are aware that there are other tasks than modeling heads right?

:)

jin

Dirk
02-03-2007, 02:11 AM
I can see some occasions where it could be usefull. Overall it reflects the general state of the gaming industry at the moment. Crank out as many cheap and thoughtless games as you can, just to bring in as much money as you possibly can.

Very often, the more inventive teams are those who do not have the big budgets.

I would rather play a game with tons of facegen-heads, but with a new and exiting gameplay, than a game with brilliantly designed characters, but boring gameplay....

DiedonD
02-03-2007, 02:33 AM
Very often, the more inventive teams are those who do not have the big budgets.

I would rather play a game with tons of facegen-heads, but with a new and exiting gameplay, than a game with brilliantly designed characters, but boring gameplay....

Triple Amin to that. Same goes for movies. When you see tons of fascinating CG Artwork, with nonsense story, you come to think "Has everyone forgotten that CG in movies SERVES the story, and the story DOESNT serves CG"

Cause thats what it is sometimes. CG show off. YUUUUCKK.

But what I dont like about this latest technology thats showing off there, is that speaking about here and now. Where do we get it? How much does it costs? And if not, then whats the use of showing it there? Why do we bother talking about it if its unreachable?

I have a project after this one, that requries the right model head (And the whole body for that matter) of a US President. And Im thinking, ok its easier with this technology, but where is it?

oDDity
02-03-2007, 03:50 AM
Very often, the more inventive teams are those who do not have the big budgets.

I would rather play a game with tons of facegen-heads, but with a new and exiting gameplay, than a game with brilliantly designed characters, but boring gameplay....

I'd imagine that a team with no good modelers on board are very likely to have no one good at anything else either.
You see a game with crappy graphics, and instantly get a bad feeling about it as a cheap shoddy thing made by amateurs.

DogBoy
02-03-2007, 03:58 AM
I'd imagine that a team with no good modelers on board are very likely to have no one good at anything else either.
You see a game with crappy graphics, and instantly get a bad feeling about it as a cheap shoddy thing made by amateurs.

That doesn't fly with me any more. I remember seeing screenshots for Half-Life and thinking it looked cr*p. There were better looking games out there.

Within 2 minutes of Playing the darn thing I was hooked. It wasn't the prettiest game but it played better then all the others.

colkai
02-03-2007, 04:28 AM
Well, the pro-painting by numbers proponent's main argument seems to be the time Vs quality one in which everyone is desperate to make a quick buck, and the quicker the better, regardless of anything else.

I really admire your high moral principles, I can only presume that you've never once had to do a job where the end result requires that you actually follow what is instructed and required over what you believe should be done and how.

In which case, you are doubly blessed, because most of us do not live in that cosseted world but the real business driven one.

It's is not about the animator/modeller "making a quick buck" as you so derisively put it, but rather, doing what you're paid to do, working as part of a team on a deadline. As I say, more power to you if you never need to do that, would that I could take my own time and build what I wanted to my standards.

I may not like it when the boss says "if it works - it's good code", but he signs off on my salary each month, so, as the old saying goes, "The boss is always right", (even when he's wrong).

T-Light
02-03-2007, 05:11 AM
oDDity -

I'm currently working on for a next gen game company, and they're paying me money to sculpt high res human heads
This is just out of interest, it has nothing to do with the above arguments.
Not interested in you breaking any NDA's but on the poly front...
Are your heads being used in-game rather than for video intro's,
If so, what's the poly count on the game model?

[Edit] Should add here that 500 poly's where the norm for a full character a few years back, that was upped to 2000+ poly's with Normal mapping (relatively) recently. If you're working on Next-Gen, I'm genuinely interested in that poly count :)

StereoMike
02-03-2007, 06:05 AM
I guess he does hi poly heads and then they get reduced and normal mapped (microwaved). In the end they will be lo-poly :P

mike

oDDity
02-03-2007, 06:29 AM
T-light, I think you'll find that many of the Oblivion characters in full armour were 15,000 polys, ad that game's a year old.
The heads I'm sculpting will be used in game, but I don't know what the poly count will be. They say they're using a 'next gen' process which involves retopologising from the high res models, baking realtime maps, and using parallax and normal maps. I'm just sculpting, I'm not involved in that part.


That doesn't fly with me any more. I remember seeing screenshots for Half-Life and thinking it looked cr*p. There were better looking games out there.

Within 2 minutes of Playing the darn thing I was hooked. It wasn't the prettiest game but it played better then all the others.

When did you play half life though, because when it was released (10 years ago) it had some of the best graphics anyone had seen at that time, and very definitely would not have been described as cheap or shoddy by anyone not wearing a straitjacket .
IF you played it long after that and were looking at essentially retro graphics, then of course the quality of them Vs the gameplay are skewed.


It's is not about the animator/modeller "making a quick buck" as you so derisively put it, but rather, doing what you're paid to do, working as part of a team on a deadline. As I say, more power to you if you never need to do that, would that I could take my own time and build what I wanted to my standards.

It's not just working to a deadline though, is it, it's working to a deadline 'and screw everything else, let's just hit that deadline at any cost'. That's making a quick buck, when the speed of profit is all that matters. Let's do it faster than the other guy, so we get the business. That's what leads to using solutions such as generic face generators.
That's why I don't play computer games any more, they're all generic crap made to the same few formulas, because it's easier and faster to plan, execute and sell one of those formulas, than do something new and interesting.
OF course I realise the pressures of the industry, but cutthroat business environments and quality craftsmanship don't mix - not that anyone cares of course.
There are, of course, many people on their little career curves, picking up their wages at the end of the month, who probably don't like all of this, but they slide right into the system just the same, and become part of the problem.

colkai
02-03-2007, 07:12 AM
OF course I realise the pressures of the industry, but cutthroat business environments and quality craftsmanship don't mix - not that anyone cares of course.
There are, of course, many people on their little career curves, picking up their wages at the end of the month, who probably don't like all of this, but they slide right into the system just the same, and become part of the problem.


People may care, but you seem to be assuming that is ONLY people who are out to make a quick buck that have to cut corners, trust me, speaking from 27+ years experience of working life, this is far from the case.

Let me ask you this, when faced with doing the job and getting apid so you can meet the bills and eat that month, or sticking up for your principles, are you telling me you'd sacrifice your food and a roof over your head to protect your "artistic" and moral integrity? Because I assure you, when you are looking at facing eviction by the end of the month unless you find work, that is not something that even comes into play.

Yeah, before you ask, alas, from there, I speak with all too painful experience, so if the results of my labour are not all I would like them to be when they leave for the client, I take solace in the fact I did the best I could, with the time and resources available to me.

That's has nought to do with "cutthroat", "take the money and run", "no integrity", if it were, I personally would have made zero effort.
This is where I think your POV is deeply unfair, the artist is likely vusting a gut to do the best they can within constraints, to slight their efforts by suggesting they have "become part of the problem" and have sacrificed their art for "a quick buck", is not only grossly insulting, but flat out wrong.

I wonder, how would you feel to find the low-poly results in game of your high detail work? Do you say, it looks ok considering how things went?
Or do you dismiss the end result as "not being your work" and so distance what you have done from the product you are working on to enable you to keep your high moral ground?

DogBoy
02-03-2007, 07:50 AM
When did you play half life though, because when it was released (10 years ago) it had some of the best graphics anyone had seen at that time, and very definitely would not have been described as cheap or shoddy by anyone not wearing a straitjacket.

Wow, I never thought I'd say you see the world through rose coloured specs but that takes the biscuit :jester:

I played it when it on release, and I stick by my inital point: The design was considered dated when it came out.

Now I never said it was cheap, nor shoddy, but it just wasn't cutting edge in it's art. A modified Quake engine was seen as being retro, and it was horrifically delayed (nothing changes at Valve). By the time it came out the art had been surpassed. The other games just weren't as good.

What they did with the art is another thing entirely. They made it immersive, not with "the best graphics anyone had seen at the time" but with it's context and it's attention to detail. No-one else would have locked the player in a train carriage for 10 minutes, but by doing that you got to see Black-Mesa as a real place of work: People miss their train, security does it's rounds, people come and go. When you finally got off the train you are hooked into the world. It's all mood.

Good design, not so good art.

oDDity
02-03-2007, 07:52 AM
Let me ask you this, when faced with doing the job and getting apid so you can meet the bills and eat that month, or sticking up for your principles, are you telling me you'd sacrifice your food and a roof over your head to protect your "artistic" and moral integrity? Because I assure you, when you are looking at facing eviction by the end of the month unless you find work, that is not something that even comes into play.

Well exactly. You're not defending that situation, you're accepting it, and I agree, one person can't change it anyway, but that doesn't mean you have to like it.
AS someone said here, you may as well just get a job working in a factory production line, if all you're going to end up doing in a CG studio is pressing buttons to auto generate the graphics, yet some people here are squirting in their pants at the very idea of a new piece of automative technology, as if it's a good thing.


That's has nought to do with "cutthroat", "take the money and run", "no integrity", if it were, I personally would have made zero effort.
This is where I think your POV is deeply unfair, the artist is likely vusting a gut to do the best they can within constraints, to slight their efforts by suggesting they have "become part of the problem" and have sacrificed their art for "a quick buck", is not only grossly insulting, but flat out wrong.
Well, they choose to work within the system, knowing that the system often forces them to produce inferior work because of time and financial constraints, so in the end, they are to blame as much as anyone.


I wonder, how would you feel to find the low-poly results in game of your high detail work? Do you say, it looks ok considering how things went?
Or do you dismiss the end result as "not being your work" and so distance what you have done from the product you are working on to enable you to keep your high moral ground?

I hate working low poly and always have. It's like working in a straitjacket, and forces constant unwanted compromise. However, new technologies are making that an ever diminishing problem.

oDDity
02-03-2007, 08:00 AM
Wow, I never thought I'd say you see the world through rose coloured specs but that takes the biscuit :jester:

I played it when it on release, and I stick by my inital point: The design was considered dated when it came out.

Now I never said it was cheap, nor shoddy, but it just wasn't cutting edge in it's art. A modified Quake engine was seen as being retro, and it was horrifically delayed (nothing changes at Valve). By the time it came out the art had been surpassed. The other games just weren't as good.

What they did with the art is another thing entirely. They made it immersive, not with "the best graphics anyone had seen at the time" but with it's context and it's attention to detail. No-one else would have locked the player in a train carriage for 10 minutes, but by doing that you got to see Black-Mesa as a real place of work: People miss their train, security does it's rounds, people come and go. When you finally got off the train you are hooked into the world. It's all mood.

Good design, not so good art.

Perhaps you'll giove me a list of games that were released in 96/97 that had better graphics than half life, and therefore when it was released in 98, made it look bad in comparison.
It's you who has the warped memory of events, not surprising since you were probably only a little kid 10 years ago.
Remember, you'd have to have been exposed to a lot of very good graphics for a significant period of time prior to half life for it to have condensed your general opinion of game graphics enough to look at half life in 98 and think 'this doesn't look so good'.
Gamespot gave it 9 out of 10 for graphics on release. That doesn't sound so bad.

T-Light
02-03-2007, 08:06 AM
oDDity -

T-light, I think you'll find that many of the Oblivion characters in full armour were 15,000 polys, ad that game's a year old.
Cheers, 2000+ poly's must be going back longer than than I thought.

On the game v's graphics front, I'd say my favourite games over the last few years would be GTA III and GTA Vice City. Nothing to look at, but spectacular game play, nothing like driving through Miami listening to Blondie trying to drive someone off the road for a fast buck. Excellent escapism.

Half Life II, had some great bits, some of the scenery was stunning, some of the graphics let it down but not all. The biggest problem I had with it was bl**dy Steam. So long as they put legitimate users through that process I'll never be buying another one of their games.

In the mean time, I'm off to have a look around for screen shots from Oblivion. :thumbsup:

DogBoy
02-03-2007, 09:31 AM
Perhaps you'll giove me a list of games that were released in 96/97 that had better graphics than half life, and therefore when it was released in 98, made it look bad in comparison.
It's you who has the warped memory of events, not surprising since you were probably only a little kid 10 years ago.

I'm 38 tomorrow, that makes me 28 when I got the game (it was a birthday present). I'd already played the cut-down "Day 1" edition, and was raving about it. I'd played through Quake 2, Hexen 2 and Unreal. Unreal was the most impressive graphics I'd ever seen. Texturing was outstanding, it had fog. Graphically it was unsurpassed. HalfLife, though undoubtedly the better game, just couldn't cut it in comparison. It was just plain lush on my 4MB Voodoo card :jester:


Remember, you'd have to have been exposed to a lot of very good graphics for a significant period of time prior to half life for it to have condensed your general opinion of game graphics enough to look at half life in 98 and think 'this doesn't look so good'.

I'd been playing games a lot. I'd been working in the games market for a while, covering card, pen and paper role-playing and computer games. I had friends who were game reviewers over at Dennis (PCZone, Maxim & Stuff), where I was freelancing as an artworker on several mags. I remember them showing me PR stuff from HL and thinking it looked so so. It was obviously a Quake based game and in screenshots it just didn't look interesting. They raved about how it played so I grabbed a dodgy d/l of a mate. THAT was when I was impressed. It moved beautifully, the AI was awesome and I was immersed. The graphics though were last gen, just done well.

Can we please stop having to have p*ssing contests, Odd. I'm just tired of it.

lwaddict
02-03-2007, 10:48 AM
oDDity...you might want to watch the entire video.

I would've agreed with you and nearly turned it off after a minute or so...
looked a lot like a higher resolution Face Generator to me too.

But it's not.

They show the deformed mesh.

And Kuzey...you're right, this isn't a new video.

oDDity
02-03-2007, 11:59 AM
Look at the Tom Hanks mesh when they turn the photo off, It looks nothing like him. I've seen zbrush sculpts that looks exactly like the person with no textures.
This is just cheap trickery, you could paste a photo of a famous person on a ****ing sphere and it would look like them. It's ridiculous.

oDDity
02-03-2007, 12:22 PM
I'm 38 tomorrow, that makes me 28 when I got the game (it was a birthday present). I'd already played the cut-down "Day 1" edition, and was raving about it. I'd played through Quake 2, Hexen 2 and Unreal. Unreal was the most impressive graphics I'd ever seen. Texturing was outstanding, it had fog. Graphically it was unsurpassed. HalfLife, though undoubtedly the better game, just couldn't cut it in comparison. It was just plain lush on my 4MB Voodoo card :jester:



I'd been playing games a lot. I'd been working in the games market for a while, covering card, pen and paper role-playing and computer games. I had friends who were game reviewers over at Dennis (PCZone, Maxim & Stuff), where I was freelancing as an artworker on several mags. I remember them showing me PR stuff from HL and thinking it looked so so. It was obviously a Quake based game and in screenshots it just didn't look interesting. They raved about how it played so I grabbed a dodgy d/l of a mate. THAT was when I was impressed. It moved beautifully, the AI was awesome and I was immersed. The graphics though were last gen, just done well.

Can we please stop having to have p*ssing contests, Odd. I'm just tired of it.

Your opinion is that half life's graphics were so bad compared to quake 2 graphics that it made you think it would be crap and was made by amateurs, but then you played it and discovered it was good.
I simply don't agree that the graphics were that much below par for the time.
A game's graphics have to be pretty bad to make you suspect it's being made by amateurs.

I can give you a far better example of a game with shoddy, dated graphics for it's time, but was one of the best games ever made - Thief 2.

DogBoy
02-03-2007, 05:34 PM
Your opinion is that half life's graphics were so bad compared to quake 2 graphics that it made you think it would be crap and was made by amateurs, but then you played it and discovered it was good.

I can give you a far better example of a game with shoddy, dated graphics for it's time, but was one of the best games ever made - Thief 2.

No, I said Unreal was a lot better graphically, Quake 2 less so and a bunch of other as well. I never said I thought was done my amateurs, but it was generating so much hype for something that didn't look good. Like SiN (or any other Ritual title), an abysmal game hyped to be great. Half-Life was great though, once you got past the shonky art.

A modern analogy: STALKER has dated graphics, but could be a superior game. We'll have to see.

Thief 2 is also a good example :thumbsup: .

DogBoy
02-03-2007, 05:38 PM
Look at the Tom Hanks mesh when they turn the photo off, It looks nothing like him. I've seen zbrush sculpts that looks exactly like the person with no textures.
This is just cheap trickery, you could paste a photo of a famous person on a ****ing sphere and it would look like them. It's ridiculous.

yeah, you pull the texture off and it ain't Hanks. It's impressive tech, but once it started moving it lost all relation to reality. That could be due to amateur animation,of course. Scientists aren't known for their animation skills.

I can see a use for this, but not for hero characters unless the animator is really on their game.

jin choung
02-03-2007, 07:40 PM
without the texture, it looks like hanks to me. it looks like what hanks would look like if he was surfaced with a default lambert shader....

it looks like a good 3d scan that hasn't been textured yet.

i was actually struck by how much the non textured version looked like hanks.

i guess if we disagree on that point, there isn't really a common frame of reference for discussion.

and this is a subtle point... but sculpts may appear "more" like the actors because of exaggeration and caricature... even on a subconscious level... so that they appear more like the actor than the actor (!!!).

jin

jin choung
02-03-2007, 07:46 PM
oh, and here's another point -

when zbrush people sculpt the heads of actors and actresses, do they use reference photos?

if they do, then the value that the act of sculpting adds is simply the fact that it had to be done manually?

if the idea is to "replicate" the surface of the person for the purpose of some other use (and not just as an exercise or for the sake of creating a sculpture for its own sake), is there any virtue in sculpting vs. (and let's simplify the argument) a CYBERSCAN of the person's face?

jin

bobakabob
02-04-2007, 02:35 AM
oh, and here's another point -

when zbrush people sculpt the heads of actors and actresses, do they use reference photos?

if they do, then the value that the act of sculpting adds is simply the fact that it had to be done manually?

if the idea is to "replicate" the surface of the person for the purpose of some other use (and not just as an exercise or for the sake of creating a sculpture for its own sake), is there any virtue in sculpting vs. (and let's simplify the argument) a CYBERSCAN of the person's face?

jin

Sure it has its uses but in my view it's akin to the lifeless vector art images you see in Computer Arts magazine - just automatic tracing. A good artist will bring the subject to life and inject it with vitality and expression.

jin choung
02-04-2007, 02:40 AM
Sure it has its uses

movies and sports games. that's pretty much what i'm talking about. when you want to make a digital version of someone to represent them as exactly as possible.

sure, if someone wants to make a sculpture for sculpture's sake of captain picard, go nuts. there are famous sculpted busts in fine art as well.

but in hollywood, you take a LIFECAST (the plaster and nose tubes deal). you don't get a michaelangelo to sculpt from scratch!

jin

Dirk
02-04-2007, 03:32 AM
I would like to see hand modeled heads of well known actors. Can somebody give me some links to galleries?

StereoMike
02-04-2007, 04:15 AM
Could Oddity model Tom Hanks please. Lambert shaded.

mike

cresshead
02-04-2007, 04:20 AM
Sure it has its uses but in my view it's akin to the lifeless vector art images you see in Computer Arts magazine - just automatic tracing. A good artist will bring the subject to life and inject it with vitality and expression.

i cant be certain but when i bought my copy of face gen i'm fairly sure there wasn't a tick box in the form saying i must be a 'bad artist' to buy it:D

of course a 'true artist' wouldn't need gimmicks like lightwave the'd be more pure than that and use graph paper and a ball point pen to determine where a vertex
point should be placed rather than let a computer simply trace it with a mouse pointer!

[please read this with a basil fawlty voice]

reference the expression below with injected vitality and expression
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images2/cleese.jpg

cresshead
02-04-2007, 04:34 AM
this line of discussion has all the similarities to that of taking a photo against drawing a subject, in which case the word 'art' is missing it's first letter...the letter 'f'...

oDDity
02-04-2007, 05:29 AM
I would like to see hand modeled heads of well known actors. Can somebody give me some links to galleries?
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=035953
There's a universe of difference between that and the basic mesh that had Tom Hanks photo lazily pasted onto it.
Computers will never be able to generate that from a few photos, without the person being scanned with lasers first, and meshes generated by that technique are really messy anyway and need a lot of cleanup.

metahumanity
02-04-2007, 06:37 AM
Computers will never be able to generate that from a few photos, without the person being scanned with lasers first, and meshes generated by that technique are really messy anyway and need a lot of cleanup.

Cristal ball?!

Of course computers will be able to generate optimized and accurate geometry in the future.

Also I donīt quite understand the "artistic integrity" discussion when it comes to a tool. Whoīs to say that models from apps like Facegen canīt be used as references, to more accuratelly capture the proportions of a face? As a template to rebuild a clean model on top, just like a laserscan, but quicker, cheaper and simpler.

The technology is a tool, always, just like a brush.

It could be argued that working for games or doing architectural or product vis compromises "artistic integrity", but that would be just as stupid and futile as the current discussion about the tools and steps involved to get to the endresult.

Dirk
02-04-2007, 06:52 AM
Ok, that's Patrick Stewart. Are there more out there?

oDDity
02-04-2007, 08:45 AM
I'm sure there are, but I'm not your personal search engine.
There was a thread on CG Talk with a guy doing celebrity heads just using nurbs.

bobakabob
02-04-2007, 10:13 AM
i cant be certain but when i bought my copy of face gen i'm fairly sure there wasn't a tick box in the form saying i must be a 'bad artist' to buy it:D

of course a 'true artist' wouldn't need gimmicks like lightwave the'd be more pure than that and use graph paper and a ball point pen to determine where a vertex
point should be placed rather than let a computer simply trace it with a mouse pointer!

You pays your money and takes yer choice. No-one's saying you're a bad artist for using Facegen. The benefits for professional pipelines with pressing deadlines are obvious.

As I wrote earlier the software is impressive. But what's wrong with expressing a personal preference? IMHO good hand crafted 3D heads are much more stylish and expressive than these production line clones which anyone can spot a mile off. I just can't see the job satisfaction of pressing a button to create an instant head. Where's the craft and artistry? It's surely far more interesting to see the individualism of a Stahlberg or Ripper shine through.

It's often said it's the end result that really counts. But isn't there a danger everything will end up looking the same and young artists will bypass learning anatomy and traditional artistic skills? Check out the zillions of homogenous Poser productions on the web.

Yep I admit I'm a Luddite :D I can see the professional uses and as Colkai said, having time to handcraft perfect likenesses is a luxury for many. But I still think it's just Poser with knobs on.

Dirk
02-04-2007, 03:37 PM
Can somebody else please post some links to pictures of hand modeled heads of actors or celebrities?

bobakabob
02-04-2007, 04:48 PM
Can somebody else please post some links to pictures of hand modeled heads of actors or celebrities?

Terry Ford created these models (http://www.aooe58.dsl.pipex.com/htm/framegallery.shtml)in Lightwave

bobakabob
02-04-2007, 05:10 PM
Also check out the work of Jinwoo Lee (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=43&t=307349&highlight=celebrity+heads+nurbs)on CGTalk. There are also currently some brilliant caricature models in the gallery threads.

lwaddict
02-04-2007, 07:16 PM
FYI...
for those interested in programs that are "ridiculous"...LOL.

POSER contains what was once called Face Generator.
POSER...249 or 129 for the upgrade from whatever previous version is in your closet.

It works. It's nice. It's an excellent addition to your workflow.
The more you learn about it and how to use it,
the less it looks like "oh...a Poser figure".

We use it for stunt doubles, crowds, and avoiding the hiring of pesimistic "talent".

But it doesn't contain the "automatic" feature set of the program that started this thread...I still say this would be great to have in the arsenal but what's the name?

lwaddict
02-04-2007, 07:34 PM
"Computers will never be able to generate that from a few photos", godITY

LOL...oh man, I spit coffee up everywhere. You're a funny guy. Never change, k?

I certainly hope that nobody listens to this guy too much around here.

I used to work for a major computer corporation that had LOSER quotes from guys like you all over the walls to remind everyone about modern innovation. Things like, "the PC revolution will never take off because they will NEVER be made smaller than a refridgerator"...or, "the automobile will NEVER go faster than 35 mph because the atomic structure of man cannot handle it"...and on and on...

I can still remember when they told the world that we would NEVER see faster than 56k bandwidth for "legal reasons"...oh man, I still laugh when I remember that one.

But that doesn't mean your mutterings are completely useless...
they can serve as wallpaper someday.
I accidentally printed this thread out so they're already being used birdcage liner.

ROFLMAO

metahumanity
02-05-2007, 03:04 AM
"Computers will never be able to generate that from a few photos", godITY

LOL...oh man, I spit coffee up everywhere. You're a funny guy. Never change, k?

I certainly hope that nobody listens to this guy too much around here.


Hey, heīs actually quite good. Take a look at his 3d stuff. All done with a crayon and a pocket calculator, incredible.

lwaddict
02-05-2007, 07:36 AM
I thought it was chewing gum and ice cream sticks...my bad I guess. :)

Dirk
02-05-2007, 11:56 AM
@bobakabob:

Hey, many thanks!

oDDity
02-05-2007, 12:18 PM
"Computers will never be able to generate that from a few photos", godITY

LOL...oh man, I spit coffee up everywhere. You're a funny guy. Never change, k?

I certainly hope that nobody listens to this guy too much around here.

I used to work for a major computer corporation that had LOSER quotes from guys like you all over the walls to remind everyone about modern innovation. Things like, "the PC revolution will never take off because they will NEVER be made smaller than a refridgerator"...or, "the automobile will NEVER go faster than 35 mph because the atomic structure of man cannot handle it"...and on and on...

I can still remember when they told the world that we would NEVER see faster than 56k bandwidth for "legal reasons"...oh man, I still laugh when I remember that one.

But that doesn't mean your mutterings are completely useless...
they can serve as wallpaper someday.
I accidentally printed this thread out so they're already being used birdcage liner.

ROFLMAO

Well of course, as one of the talentless button pushers of this world, you can't wait to be able to generate a full digital sculpt with textures and morphs with a button push and a photo, then use your autorigger plugin and mo cap data to animate it with the push of 2 more buttons.
Just thinking about the prospect of it actually makes you happy
All I can say is, you'd be better of working in a canning factory, making sure all the labels are straight. You'd have a more interesting and fulfilling day, and at least you'd be able to claim you'd achieved something.

StereoMike
02-05-2007, 01:27 PM
you can't wait to be able to generate a full digital sculpt with textures and morphs with a button push and a photo, then use your autorigger plugin and mo cap data to animate it with the push of 2 more buttons.


But that's exactly how business works. Welcome in todays world. That's why it's called business because it's about money. It's not about art, but you obviously had a little misunderstanding on this.

mike

bobakabob
02-05-2007, 02:36 PM
So it's all about money... and art's out of the window?

Bog
02-05-2007, 02:37 PM
So is business the be all and end all?

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

bobakabob
02-05-2007, 02:41 PM
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Heh... well as long as I'm a hand crafted 3D Sith and not one generated by pushing a button that's OK :D

Dave Jerrard
02-05-2007, 04:05 PM
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Ha! I Knew it! You're a Sith too!


I'm a Sith, You're A Sith, Wouldn't you like to be a Sith too?


He Who Is One Sith Bastard.

Bog
02-05-2007, 04:09 PM
Ooh. Do we get a Sith Form Common Room, with it's obligatory girlie mag stuffed into the sofa-cushions and reeking of Woodbines?

</epsb>*






*This joke may only be undestandable to people who went through an English Public School , and therefore are English Public School Boys, aka EPSBs, regardless of nationality, location or age.

CMT
02-05-2007, 04:09 PM
But that's exactly how business works. Welcome in todays world. That's why it's called business because it's about money. It's not about art, but you obviously had a little misunderstanding on this.

mike

Well, sure, the production companies are all about money. The director and actors are also definately in it for the money too, but also the fun of performing/directing/contributing to a vision. I imagine anyone getting into modeling does so mostly for the fun or it (at least I do), otherwise they would be doing something a bit more lucrative.

But in the future when the general public knows via the special edition dvd's how that great cg character was created, all the magic will be lost and "Hey wow, that guy was all done with computers" will get old really fast.

Will it impact the movie business? Probably not. It's the story and vision of the director and writers that's at the heart of the movies and of most interest - not the CG. But whatever they need to do "git 'er dun" quickly will always prevail.

But I will always be more interested in something that's unique in vision and execution. An assembly line created CG human character will never have that. It hasn't failed yet. A uniquely styled movie with a good story has always earned my dollar for a ticket to the movies. But a Final Fantasy sequel movie won't (unless the story is 10 times better than the first movie).

bobakabob
02-05-2007, 04:19 PM
But I will always be more interested in something that's unique in vision and execution. An assembly line created CG human character will never have that. It hasn't failed yet. A uniquely styled movie with a good story has always earned my dollar for a ticket to the movies. But a Final Fantasy sequel movie won't (unless the story is 10 times better than the first movie).

:agree:

bobakabob
02-05-2007, 04:21 PM
Ooh. Do we get a Sith Form Common Room, with it's obligatory girlie mag stuffed into the sofa-cushions and reeking of Woodbines?

</epsb>*

*This joke may only be undestandable to people who went through an English Public School , and therefore are English Public School Boys, aka EPSBs, regardless of nationality, location or age.

It was no different at our working class comprehensive up noorth!

Bog
02-05-2007, 04:22 PM
Absolutely, CMT. 3D animation is a storytelling tool. A powerful, absolutely. An oft-abused one, for certain. But without a story to tell, it's just pictures. A single, static image created as a labour of love can evoke very powerful emotions, but I think to use 3D for that is improper, unless you're creating a form that couldn't exist in real life in the first place. 3D is intrinsically about motion, and motion without emotion is mere mechanism.

Total agreement with that you there, chap.

*edit*

Bobakabob: :D

Dave Jerrard
02-05-2007, 04:23 PM
Ooh. Do we get a Sith Form Common Room, with it's obligatory girlie mag stuffed into the sofa-cushions and reeking of Woodbines?

</epsb>*






*This joke may only be undestandable to people who went through an English Public School , and therefore are English Public School Boys, aka EPSBs, regardless of nationality, location or age.


Oh, stop being such a Sith-head. :D


He Who Won't Stop And You Can't Force Him.
:D :D

Bog
02-05-2007, 04:34 PM
He Who Won't Stop And You Can't Force Him.
:D :D

Are you sure? I can carry on until you're Sith and tired of the whole affair. :D

StereoMike
02-06-2007, 02:41 AM
I imagine anyone getting into modeling does so mostly for the fun or it (at least I do), otherwise they would be doing something a bit more lucrative....
But I will always be more interested in something that's unique in vision and execution. An assembly line created CG human character will never have that. It hasn't failed yet. A uniquely styled movie with a good story has always earned my dollar for a ticket to the movies. But a Final Fantasy sequel movie won't (unless the story is 10 times better than the first movie).

I referred to commercial use of such products. It's sure more fun to model all by yourself, but if there are quicker and cheaper ways that produce a decent quality, a company would go that road.
E.g. you could do all animations by yourself, but Endorphin takes alot of work off your shoulders when it comes to big scenes (or even scenes with a few characters, the demo scenes looked very cool).
And you could tweak the results as well. So you could do with a generated face model. You could add some human touches at the end of the process, and if they do it right you won't have that bad feeling in a movie. If the story is good ;)

mike

DogBoy
02-06-2007, 02:47 AM
Are you sure? I can carry on until you're Sith and tired of the whole affair. :D

If you don't mind, I'm gonna Sith this one out.

colkai
02-06-2007, 02:51 AM
I'm just Sith of all the force-d puns here.
Probably because coming from a grammar education, I was intimidated by the Sith form.

jin choung
02-06-2007, 03:04 AM
So it's all about money... and art's out of the window?

not either or. in commercial endeavors like this, never has been, never will be.

in commercial endeavors like movies and games, it's NEVER about making the very best model/shot you possibly can. it is ALWAYS about IS IT GOOD ENOUGH FOR WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO?

there are any number of directors or even writers that talk about how something is NEVER DONE... there is always something more they wished they could have done or changed but at some point (usually dependent on contractual obligation or hunger) they have to put the period on and end it.

if odd's a working artist, his bosses ain't gonna give him 20 weeks to model a head because he doesn't feel it yet... artistically, it's just not there yet....

deadlines, money, LIMITATIONS and RESTRICTIONS... we all work under such masters.

sooo - heads are usually not an end in themselves. there is no movie or game i know of in which the head was the end all be all of the experience.

let me say that again - heads are not an end in themselves.

if software or a scan will get you most of the way there to a shot that will have massive motion blur applied anyway at 1/20th the cost of a sculpter and his time, guess which way most studios will go?

guess how much discernible difference that will make to that shot?

jin

faulknermano
02-06-2007, 03:31 AM
i think this technology very beneficial for forensic science, unless there are already more advanced systems.


Well of course, as one of the talentless button pushers of this world, you can't wait to be able to generate a full digital sculpt with textures and morphs with a button push and a photo, then use your autorigger plugin and mo cap data to animate it with the push of 2 more buttons.

sometimes "talent" can be in other things; how well can you light and render a scene? the 3d pipe is becoming more complex, and one person will be hard-pressed to get things done as requirements increase. a person can be skilled in certain things, and enjoy certain parts of the 3d world, while wishing to automate particular aspects he doesnt want to be involved in (this may or may not be in professional situation). perhaps he's already involved in it already, but doesnt want to "reinvent the wheel" every time.

a person who is more concerned with his art, as opposed to his own "artistry" will look towards to things that achieve that goal.

the vain fret about their perception as artists, either from themselves, or from others.

and the arrogant, having secured status based on their principles, deride those whom they think (correctly or incorrectly) fail on those principles. the ignorant knows no other principle. and the bigot believes that no other principle is acceptable than his own.

StereoMike
02-06-2007, 03:37 AM
:agree:

oDDity
02-06-2007, 05:16 AM
i think this technology very beneficial for forensic science, unless there are already more advanced systems.



sometimes "talent" can be in other things; how well can you light and render a scene? the 3d pipe is becoming more complex, and one person will be hard-pressed to get things done as requirements increase. a person can be skilled in certain things, and enjoy certain parts of the 3d world, while wishing to automate particular aspects he doesnt want to be involved in (this may or may not be in professional situation). perhaps he's already involved in it already, but doesnt want to "reinvent the wheel" every time.

a person who is more concerned with his art, as opposed to his own "artistry" will look towards to things that achieve that goal.

the vain fret about their perception as artists, either from themselves, or from others.

and the arrogant, having secured status based on their principles, deride those whom they think (correctly or incorrectly) fail on those principles. the ignorant knows no other principle. and the bigot believes that no other principle is acceptable than his own.

So whats your big job going to be in the future then? Polishing the monitor of the latest supercomputer as it churns out the millionth generic CG project, or making sure the labels on the DVDs are straight?
Decisions, decisions.,,,

DiedonD
02-06-2007, 06:30 AM
If theyve managed to make heads out of pictures, then they shouldnt be far off in making whole bodies with hands, all the way to the last small toe on your right foot. And when that technology hits the markets, and it becomes more affordable, welll.... an ordinary drawing person would be able to come up with a 3D model. Its bye bye modelling for good. Why bother modelling the whole thing, when you can draw it in any angle, and have the programe model it for you.
But, appart from motion capture, which is good for realistic movement, they havent improved anything on animation yet. CA in toons for instance, is still good old keyframing.
So the outcome of all this, it seems to me, is that all 3D apps will focus on animation, rather then in modeling. Since any kid with some drawing skills could come up with a model. Texturing is also a draw thing. Rigging, you already have apps that do it faster, all its left is animating.
So why after these futuristic developments does the dev team still holding back on CA? This is becoming no longer a marketing strategy to keep up, but its DANGEROUSLY getting for the worse if CA doesnt get the attention it deserves.

cresshead
02-06-2007, 06:50 AM
...it's not all about modeling...
it's not all about 'how' you animate...mocap/keyframe/rotoscope
it's not all about how you rig a character...
it's not all about the renderer and how fast it is...
it not all about the techniques you emply or if your model/rig/motion is perfect...
it not all about anatomy...
it's not all about edgeloops
it not all about aiming for photoreal...hdri etc

all of the above are 'icing on the cake'....

what is it then?......story story story...that's what.
and if the audience find it entertaing to watch/play/buy/que up for.

then it's a done deal...

some of the most noted 'artists' lived in poverty...great move!

some very ropey/cheap looking/animated shows get multi season's because the audience not the arty fatry tech types watch/play/buy...they actually spend cash on the results....

Dave Jerrard
02-06-2007, 06:51 AM
My guess is that more people use LightWave for rendering than character animation right now. It makes sense to tackle the problems that affect the most people first, and face it... the renderer was long overdue for a major tuneup. It makes less sense to focus on something that would benefit a smaller group of people, and then have them have to export that to another package for rendering, because the native renderer hasn't been improved in about a decade. And since those other renders tend to already have updated character tools, that makes even less sense.

The render improvements are pretty major right now, and have already begun to swing more productions to it, and this is the just the beginning of a larger render overhaul. Once all that is done and there's a solid, versatile base to hook into, better animation tools can be built that will work with it.

He Who Thinks This Makes Sense At Least.

EagleWing
02-06-2007, 06:58 AM
id love Newtek to bring out an equivilant to Renderman, that would be cool.

metahumanity
02-06-2007, 07:14 AM
My guess is that more people use LightWave for rendering than character animation right now. It makes sense to tackle the problems that affect the most people first, and face it... the renderer was long overdue for a major tuneup. It makes less sense to focus on something that would benefit a smaller group of people, and then have them have to export that to another package for rendering, because the native renderer hasn't been improved in about a decade. And since those other renders tend to already have updated character tools, that makes even less sense.

The render improvements are pretty major right now, and have already begun to swing more productions to it, and this is the just the beginning of a larger render overhaul. Once all that is done and there's a solid, versatile base to hook into, better animation tools can be built that will work with it.

He Who Thinks This Makes Sense At Least.


Hey Dave, wrong thread. This is one of the "All hail Odditysīs talent" threads.

:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

Dave Jerrard
02-06-2007, 07:25 AM
I was actually responding to Deidond's message, but Cress butted in line while I was writing. :)



He Who Will Now Return You To Your Woshipping.

oDDity
02-06-2007, 07:43 AM
...it's not all about modeling...
it's not all about 'how' you animate...mocap/keyframe/rotoscope
it's not all about how you rig a character...
it's not all about the renderer and how fast it is...
it not all about the techniques you emply or if your model/rig/motion is perfect...
it not all about anatomy...
it's not all about edgeloops
it not all about aiming for photoreal...hdri etc

all of the above are 'icing on the cake'....

what is it then?......story story story...that's what.
and if the audience find it entertaing to watch/play/buy/que up for.

then it's a done deal...

some of the most noted 'artists' lived in poverty...great move!

some very ropey/cheap looking/animated shows get multi season's because the audience not the arty fatry tech types watch/play/buy...they actually spend cash on the results....

So now all we have to do is hang around until someone produces a program that can write stories for us as well.
Heck ,while we're at it, just build a robot to push the ****ing buttons on the auto head generator, there's no sense hiring a man to do that, youd have to pay him, hence cutting into the profits. You'll probably need 3 masters degrees - Computer Science, Computer Graphics and Advanced Buttonometry just to get that job anyway.

metahumanity
02-06-2007, 08:10 AM
Iīm just curious, donīt you feel you are compromising your artistic integrity by providing services for a game developer...or using a computer, while weīre at it?

CMT
02-06-2007, 08:40 AM
If theyve managed to make heads out of pictures, then they shouldnt be far off in making whole bodies with hands, all the way to the last small toe on your right foot. And when that technology hits the markets, and it becomes more affordable, welll.... an ordinary drawing person would be able to come up with a 3D model.

Why would you need to draw the body when you can just use a base body with several hundred morphs in it (kinda like the universal man from Pixar only for a realistic body). Just create the bodytype you want. Plop on the head and you're off.


Its bye bye modelling for good. Why bother modelling the whole thing, when you can draw it in any angle, and have the programe model it for you.

Not sure if that will work. How is a program ever gonna interpret a drawing into 3d space? The reason this head creation software works is that it already has a 3D head model to start with. Things that don't exist in the real world will always have to be modeled.


...it's not all about modeling...
it's not all about 'how' you animate...mocap/keyframe/rotoscope
it's not all about how you rig a character...
it's not all about the renderer and how fast it is...
it not all about the techniques you emply or if your model/rig/motion is perfect...
it not all about anatomy...
it's not all about edgeloops
it not all about aiming for photoreal...hdri etc

all of the above are 'icing on the cake'....

True, the meat of any movie is the story. But if the acting is bad (animated or real), or if it looks half-assed (original sci-fi channel movies) I ain't watchin'.


what is it then?......story story story...that's what.
and if the audience find it entertaing to watch/play/buy/que up for.


If Lord of the Rings was made to the point where it was just "good enough", would it have made the money it did?

I think the reality is that people don't go to the movies just for a good story (except for romatic comedies, or Driving Miss Daisy types). They go for a good story which is presented in the most pleasing visual way.

I don't make enough money or have the time to go see all the movies I'd like. I have to choose. And I'll choose one that I know will likely to have the best experience overall. If I just want a great story, I'd just read books.

jin choung
02-06-2007, 12:32 PM
So whats your big job going to be in the future then? Polishing the monitor of the latest supercomputer as it churns out the millionth generic CG project, or making sure the labels on the DVDs are straight?
Decisions, decisions.,,,

according to your philosophy, KEYFRAME INTERPOLATION and the attendant AUTOMATION of "inbetweening" takes away from the artistry too then....

what's an animator to do then? right?

AUTOMATION is a trend you are NOT going to win against.

truly, there are many many many jobs that will be lost to automation (if history hasn't given you a clue on that yet).

the loss of jobs is a problem because not everybody shares in the net benefits of automation but this is heading to the right place:

LABOR will not be the issue... and humans will be left to do what only they can do... or what they choose to do.

besides, for a person who makes his living using COMPUTERS and COMPUTER SOFTWARE to do his work, dontcha think your position is a TAD OVERSTATED?

you don't see any irony there sport?

jin

cresshead
02-06-2007, 02:10 PM
this all just smacks of ''best buggy whips in the world''....
doesn't matter if you make the VERY best buggy whips in the world when people move on to buying and using CARS...:) ...your of the past..move on..start designing cars and not buggy whips!....

we're not there 'yet' but the writing is on the wall...for modeling and animating...can you just hear the cursing that took place a few years ago when cartoon artists saw 'toy story'....cartoon films on the whole are 'history' nowdays....people want cg...and now the 'steam age' of cg is round the corner!

:thumbsup:

cresshead
02-06-2007, 02:14 PM
it's not all doom n gloom btw....what do WE do best?
invent...make good ideas come to life...the people with good 'ideas' will always have a job...be they storyboard artists, concept artists..etc..

Stooch
02-06-2007, 02:16 PM
...it's not all about modeling...
it's not all about 'how' you animate...mocap/keyframe/rotoscope
it's not all about how you rig a character...
it's not all about the renderer and how fast it is...
it not all about the techniques you emply or if your model/rig/motion is perfect...
it not all about anatomy...
it's not all about edgeloops
it not all about aiming for photoreal...hdri etc

all of the above are 'icing on the cake'....

what is it then?......story story story...that's what.
and if the audience find it entertaing to watch/play/buy/que up for.

then it's a done deal...

some of the most noted 'artists' lived in poverty...great move!

some very ropey/cheap looking/animated shows get multi season's because the audience not the arty fatry tech types watch/play/buy...they actually spend cash on the results....

words of the wise. oddity eat your heart out.

Lightwolf
02-06-2007, 02:24 PM
If Lord of the Rings was made to the point where it was just "good enough", would it have made the money it did?
It was just good enough(as in: not perfect). True, nobody else in the theatre noticed it, but I cringed at blue spills, foot slipping, compositing glitches.

Still liked the movie though (once I got over the glitches ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

cresshead
02-06-2007, 02:30 PM
lor..some of the hand keyed camera animation was really poor too...still the film was entertaining..i liked it!
thought he motion captured ''camera'' of the troll fight done by the director was amazing...
..Hmmm mo cap vs hand key...mo cap won!

oDDity
02-06-2007, 02:30 PM
according to your philosophy, KEYFRAME INTERPOLATION and the attendant AUTOMATION of "inbetweening" takes away from the artistry too then....

what's an animator to do then? right?

AUTOMATION is a trend you are NOT going to win against.

truly, there are many many many jobs that will be lost to automation (if history hasn't given you a clue on that yet).

the loss of jobs is a problem because not everybody shares in the net benefits of automation but this is heading to the right place:

LABOR will not be the issue... and humans will be left to do what only they can do... or what they choose to do.

besides, for a person who makes his living using COMPUTERS and COMPUTER SOFTWARE to do his work, dontcha think your position is a TAD OVERSTATED?

you don't see any irony there sport?

jin


It's one thing for automation to take away the boring repetitive jobs. That's fine, but when it takes away the jobs that people actually enjoy doing and want to do, then it's a bad thing.
An inevitable thing maybe, but still bad.

cresshead
02-06-2007, 02:39 PM
oddity..you can already see movment on modeling...once it was all about polymodeling edgeloops on a character all within a 3d app trying to get detail in there with polys/bump maps....then the weird and wonderful zbrush came on the scene...of which your pretty darn'd good at by the looks of it....but z brush has that weird workflow....then we had mudbox..more user friendly app...your ARe moving with the times even if you don't percieve it...

now factor in india...they're turning out 3d artists by the truckload everyday...
see what happens to productions...they're getting outsourced to india...skyland is a case in point...started out in france but now 95% done in india...they're pretty good over there..and MUCH cheaper...so we're being attatcked on several fronts!....

plus china..give them 5 years and see what's happnin!

oDDity
02-06-2007, 02:43 PM
So what are you saying there?
We should have let the Nazis get on with their work? :2guns:

cresshead
02-06-2007, 02:50 PM
LOL!....err..no.

with labour costs being cheaper such tasks as modeling from model sheets and such will go out to cheaper countries...not all...not yet..but there is a swing going that way..

living in the culture/location where the most revenue can be had from a production [usa/europe] will still be a great place for people with ideas and pre production...when it comes to slugging out models after they have been designed..well a large part will go out to cheaper places..that just ecconomics...cheaper mean either more fx can go in a production for same cost or the cost/production time can be reduced with wither cheaper labour in the same numbers of artists or more artists and fast production cycle...which can lead to getting the product out there faster so gettng the profit back sooner.

jin choung
02-06-2007, 03:10 PM
It's one thing for automation to take away the boring repetitive jobs. That's fine, but when it takes away the jobs that people actually enjoy doing and want to do, then it's a bad thing.
An inevitable thing maybe, but still bad.

you're splitting hairs. one man's boring repetitive job is another man's career and calling.

i'm sure a lot of traditional inbetweeners liked doing what they did. i'm sure there are a lot of automobile plant workers that liked what they did. i'm sure there's a part of RAY HARRYHAUSEN that thinks that the fact that we get interpolation is CHEATING.

again, the fact that you, a user of a computer [possibly the epitome of automation] and SOFTWARE, is arguing so vigorously against other kinds of software and automation.... that's kinda untenable.

if you made you living scraping mud with sticks, then you'd have a leg to stand on.

jin

bobakabob
02-06-2007, 03:16 PM
Cresshead,

Here's a challenge... As an evangelist of this dial-a-head software how about making an exact super-realistic 3D model of Oddity based on his fetching perspective avatar photograph?

We'll be the judge and allow Oddity a casting vote ;)

bobakabob
02-06-2007, 03:40 PM
you're splitting hairs. one man's boring repetitive job is another man's career and calling.

i'm sure a lot of traditional inbetweeners liked doing what they did. i'm sure there are a lot of automobile plant workers that liked what they did. i'm sure there's a part of RAY HARRYHAUSEN that thinks that the fact that we get interpolation is CHEATING.

again, the fact that you, a user of a computer [possibly the epitome of automation] and SOFTWARE, is arguing so vigorously against other kinds of software and automation.... that's kinda untenable.

if you made you living scraping mud with sticks, then you'd have a leg to stand on.

jin

In a commercial environment there is always the pressure to get the job done faster and cheaper. Hence the development of push button heads. But the real visionaries have passion and know how to get the balance right.

There's a limit to how much automation you allow before everything becomes homogenous gloop. Kraftwerk are great but gimme the Clash any day :D

Btw, nothing has yet transcended the pioneering work of Ray.

cresshead
02-06-2007, 03:46 PM
Here's a challenge...,,,,,,oh no you don't!:tsktsk:

the only person/things that can make make an oddity are his parents!:D :agree:
and oddity himself with a bit of assistance from a mouse and mudbox!

T-Light
02-06-2007, 03:47 PM
bobakabob-

how about making an exact super-realistic 3D model of Oddity based on his fetching perspective avatar photograph
Doesn't facegen need front and profile images to work? Although, there is another picture of oDDity somewhere...

[EDIT] Ah, seemed to have missed the boat, teach me to watch CSI and write in threads at the same time :rolleyes:

cresshead
02-06-2007, 03:49 PM
only if oddity agrees [when does he EVER agree!!!] and i get a fron and side pik!:D

Lamont
02-06-2007, 03:58 PM
Wrong am I?
I'm currently working on for a next gen game company, and they're paying me money to sculpt high res human heads, so I wonder why they'd be wasting money like this when they can just buy facegen and knock out a dozen generic meshes.You answered your own question. GENERIC. There are tiers in characters, you need to bang out 1000 fodder characters you will either pull art from another title, use some type of app like this, OR model a few generic bodies/heads and write a script to generate them at random. The art director wants 1000 heads, they have to look good and he really doesn't give a crap how you made them.

FaceGen characters look like FaceGen characters, there is a place for them in almost any production.

The technology behind this is excellent and if/when it becomes available, I can see production houses buying it.

Bog
02-06-2007, 05:22 PM
Anyone who insists that His Way is the only true way sounds religious to me.

Personally, I like to keep religious folk away from any kind of power. We're right in the middle of seeing how that goes. Again. With more lost lives. Again.

I'll dispense advise 'til the cows come home, whilst being aware - and stating - that my way may not be the only way.

Saying "This is my point of view. If you don't agree, you're wrong and stupid and your mother dresses you funny" is ... well. It's a way I rejected long ago as being intrinsically counterproductive, and not conducisve to learning.

jin choung
02-06-2007, 06:10 PM
In a commercial environment there is always the pressure to get the job done faster and cheaper. Hence the development of push button heads. But the real visionaries have passion and know how to get the balance right.

There's a limit to how much automation you allow before everything becomes homogenous gloop. Kraftwerk are great but gimme the Clash any day :D


and no one here would disagree with you on this point.

but who's to say that using automated face generation (capture) software or cyberscanning is beyond the pale or it throws off the balance?

that is the issue.

jin

Bog
02-06-2007, 06:16 PM
and no one here would disagree with you on this point.

but who's to say that using automated face generation (capture) software or cyberscanning is beyond the pale or it throws off the balance?

that is the issue.

jin

Nobody. At all. To cast anyone away as some kind of lesser being for using tools for a job, to do a job, is silly and pointless. It's the kind of vacuous elitism that brought an end to aristocracies and has no place in the 21st century.

You use the tools you've got to do the job. If "the job" is covered by automation, you automate. If the job isn't covered by automation - and the 3D realm is so vast that there's no way to automate it all - then you do it by hand.

Sneering at somene for using a map-driven face-generator is as daft as sneering at them for using a Magnet tool, instead of hand-dragging every vertex.

Is the magnet suitable for all vertex-level deforms? Nope. Is photogrammetry suitable for all modelling tasks? Nope. Is spending days and weeks modelling a face that's only going be seen in the midground or in the throes of exploding sensible? Nope.

Horses for courses. To be 3D is to be flexible, and to use the right tool for the right job at the right time to get the shot done. Ivory towers are for our pals at Stanford and MIT who write SIGGRAPH papers.

jin choung
02-06-2007, 06:20 PM
exactly. your magnet example is eloquent.

jin

bobakabob
02-06-2007, 07:35 PM
Nobody. At all. To cast anyone away as some kind of lesser being for using tools for a job, to do a job, is silly and pointless. It's the kind of vacuous elitism that brought an end to aristocracies and has no place in the 21st century.

You use the tools you've got to do the job. If "the job" is covered by automation, you automate. If the job isn't covered by automation - and the 3D realm is so vast that there's no way to automate it all - then you do it by hand.

Sneering at somene for using a map-driven face-generator is as daft as sneering at them for using a Magnet tool, instead of hand-dragging every vertex.

Is the magnet suitable for all vertex-level deforms? Nope. Is photogrammetry suitable for all modelling tasks? Nope. Is spending days and weeks modelling a face that's only going be seen in the midground or in the throes of exploding sensible? Nope.

Horses for courses. To be 3D is to be flexible, and to use the right tool for the right job at the right time to get the shot done. Ivory towers are for our pals at Stanford and MIT who write SIGGRAPH papers.

Re: 'elitism'

It's true that Renaissance masters who used all manner of mirrors lenses and grids would surely be dazzled by the use of the computer as a drawing aid were they alive today. Check out David Hockney's intriguing book Secret Knowledge (http://www.koopfilms.com/hockney/). It's had a critical bashing from some critics who don't want to accept the truth.

Kudos, btw, to the engineers who built this face generating software. It's ingenious and like Facegen it will no doubt be snapped up by the industry.

But... on the level of subjective taste... and accepting that artists are bound to use drawing aids... don't you agree a unique essentially 'hand built' sculpture is far more interesting than something that comes in a tin? I defy anyone not to fall over when they see Michaelangelo's David the first time. Whereas - as good as Andy Warhol's work is - it's empty and fake. Which is his point I guess.

Remember Buzz Lightyear's disappointment when he realises he's just a mass production clone? A moral for our time :D

jin choung
02-06-2007, 08:21 PM
ooo... i'm glad you brought up the renaissance guys with the camera obscura and stuff... that's a great example where purists are collectively flipping over in their graves....

as for the crux of your argument, i get what you mean but if i were to be a purist about it, "essentially 'hand built'" can be a complex issue if we're talking about drawing aids as extensive as computers and software.

but i'll bring up an illuminating example of what you're talking about - POSER. i HATE poser. it always always ALWAYS looks like poser. even when illustrators DRAW ON TOP OF IT!!! HAHAHAHA....

but what i find primarily distasteful is not the PRINCIPLE as such but the RESULTS.

the crux of your argument is that hand made is better than canned. it may be true... NOW... but this is a limitation of current software. not necessarily a limitation of the universe.

but what if the QUALITY itself is beyond reproach in the canned? would that be preferable in a production to a handmade object that was less accomplished?

let's step away from software - is a hand sculpted patrick steward better than an accurate cyberscan?

if the quality is good (enough) it's almost BESIDE THE POINT how you got it. sure, you get no bragging rights on whatever is canned (and THIS is an important point and can lead to a strict BIBLIOGRAPHY of what came from where for fear of taking improper credit) but if the entire focus of your endeavor is not A HEAD (for example) does it matter?

here's an interesting question - i really enjoy modeling. but if someone creates a PERFECT P51 mustang that contains every conceivable poly count version and each version is perfectly optimized and just put it in the public domain... would there be any point in me building another one from scratch if i needed a mustang for my production?

if digital domain has archived their TITANIC model, would there be a point in anyone ever building another digital model of the titanic again for a production if they had access to it and it holds up (may not be the case but hypothetically....).

because of the nature of digital assets, we may soon come to a point where every major facility simply repurposes and amortizes assets and eventually end up relying on a huge backlot of premade stuff.

and this is not necessarily bad.

(slightly off topic but tangentially related).....

jin

jin choung
02-06-2007, 08:24 PM
oh, and re: poser - the fact that poser stuff always looks like poser stuff is an essential weakness in my view.

even if you can TELL BY LOOKING WHETHER SOMETHING WAS MODELED IN POLYS, SUBDS or NURBS (and we all know the mushy sds stuff that i'm talking about) - even THAT is a huuuuuuge flaw.

it should look like what it should look like... not betray the method of production.

jin

faulknermano
02-06-2007, 08:39 PM
But... on the level of subjective taste... and accepting that artists are bound to use drawing aids... don't you agree a unique essentially 'hand built' sculpture is far more interesting than something that comes in a tin?

if something is interesting, then something is interesting because the actual thing is itself is of interest, not simply because it was "hand built". however, since you are talking subjectively, let me put what is going on more objectively: admiring something "hand built" is romantic, since you are referring to the process in which something was created. you are then interested in that part. that is different (though not mutually exclusive) if you admire something for what it is. but i'm not saying that the link to the process and the final result is trivial or meaningless. on the contrary, i tihnk it is very meaningful, but i just wanted to categorise it for clarity.

as for your hand built question: no. the actual software and development involved in this face generation is an art by itself. i hope more people understand, especially "artists", that they arent the only artists in this world. the results of this face generator might not impress certain individuals who judge it on artistic merits. now that's the dumbest thing i heard (hence my involvement). how can automation produce anything artistic? it's foregone conclusion, and isnt the issue. the impressiveness of the software is how it is ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH THE TASK IT DESIGNED TO DO.

even if the entertainment industry doesnt pick it up, i'm sure other professional establishments will find use for it. good for them they dont have to deal with the chip on the shoulder called "artistic nuances".

oDDity
02-07-2007, 02:45 AM
Sneering at somene for using a map-driven face-generator is as daft as sneering at them for using a Magnet tool, instead of hand-dragging every vertex.
That's absolute bollocks. Mindless equivocation with which to manufacture an argument.
There is no skill or artistic difference at all between dragging each point individually and using the magnet to do it. It's a simple speed-up tool.
However, the difference between generating an entire face and texture with the push of a button and doing it manually is massive and fundamental.
There is no meaningful analogy to be drawn between the two at any level.

jin choung
02-07-2007, 02:52 AM
AUTOMATION....

that is the meaningful analogy to be drawn.

now we're talking about DEGREES.

again, if you were scraping dirt with sticks, that would be one thing....

jin

oDDity
02-07-2007, 03:26 AM
Stop going on about mud and sticks, it makes you sound like an imbecile, and has zero relevance to the conversation.

Bog
02-07-2007, 03:48 AM
That's absolute bollocks. Mindless equivocation with which to manufacture an argument.
There is no skill or artistic difference at all between dragging each point individually and using the magnet to do it. It's a simple speed-up tool.
However, the difference between generating an entire face and texture with the push of a button and doing it manually is massive and fundamental.
There is no meaningful analogy to be drawn between the two at any level.

Thus spake someone who blatantly didn't use 3D before there were Magnet tools available. Anyway, you're missing my point by a country mile. Facegen - it's a tool. I doubt anyone would ever use it and then proudly proclaim "I did this face. Behold my art". If they did, the first question anyone would ask would be either: "How did you model that?" or "How long did it take you?"

The answer would make it obvious that a photomodeler had been used. If someone had a showreel consisting only of Facegen models, then they wouldn't be getting any particularly great gigs.

Is this taking something away from high-detail face modellers? Nope. Is this undermining the artistic integrity of the visual effects industry (HAW!)? Nope.

Is this going to be a huge timesaver for projects where lavishing days and weeks on every head in the shot isn't an option? Yup. Is this going to help folk who just need to, EG, stick a pilot in a cockpit but want to focus on getting their plane right? Yup.

Does this make people who use it worthless hacks as you keep saying? Nope.

Is there any reason to be nasty about it? Nope.

parm
02-07-2007, 04:44 AM
However, the difference between generating an entire face and texture with the push of a button and doing it manually is massive and fundamental.

If the result of painstakingly producing a 3d face manually. Is practically indistinguishable, from the automatic and speedy replication of the same reference. It would be a bit silly not to use the time saver.

parm
02-07-2007, 05:01 AM
Facegen - it's a tool. I doubt anyone would ever use it and then proudly proclaim "I did this face. Behold my art". If they did, the first question anyone would ask would be either: "How did you model that?" or "How long did it take you?"

You're right.

More likely they would take the face model and do something creative with it, make some art. The model isn't an end in itself. On it's own, no matter how much skill went into making it, it's still only a model. A building block to be used with other models, and textures and lighting to create imagery.

I can't really see the difference between using this kind of technology, and purchasing ready made classic furniture models, for example. I really can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

DiedonD
02-07-2007, 05:20 AM
[QUOTE=CMT]
Not sure if that will work. How is a program ever gonna interpret a drawing into 3d space? The reason this head creation software works is that it already has a 3D head model to start with. Things that don't exist in the real world will always have to be modeled.
[QUOTE=CMT]

Not necessarily. Cause the nonreal character can be painted over, into a seemingly 3D like single image. So instead of modeling, someone might paint it, and have the button do the rest. Thats for unrealistic part. For photorealism ya just take a picture and be done with it.
So you have a model in a blitz after you have a picture, either painted or taken a picture of, depending on your choice. It comes up with textures. You have some apps that rigg it also in a blitz. And you can try mocap for photorealism, BUT you still have to keyframe for nonphotorealistic characters.
What Im stressing here that that area hasnt been automated yet, not even an idea for it that Ive come to see exists. An automated keyframe maker is nowhere to be found. Thus the art, if the one button modeler arrives, will be moved to animation and that single picture painting (That then gets 3D witha button). So with the flow from modeling, texturing, rigging covered with single buttons each (or perhaps even more in the future, with one button for them all) all its left is animation. Which all apps would run to make it more user friendly. And ours then, just MUUUUUST do also, cause then it gets SERIOSLY dangerous not to do so. It would just be pushed into extincion FAST, if it wont do so. Cause some of us, for some reason or another mught still stick around. Think about an average user, thats deciding which app to buy: 1) The one that does everything except animating, and even that is if your doing non photorealistic characters; 2) That you have to manually do everything from scratch.

I dont find it hard which one would be choosen, if it all becomes affordable.

oDDity
02-07-2007, 05:25 AM
Thus spake someone who blatantly didn't use 3D before there were Magnet tools available. Anyway, you're missing my point by a country mile. Facegen - it's a tool.
It's not a tool.
A tool is something that helps you achieve a goal in a faster and more efficent manner.
Something like facegen, which actually does the job for you is not a tool, it's a crutch that an produce nothing but prosaic results.






Is this going to be a huge timesaver for projects where lavishing days and weeks on every head in the shot isn't an option? Yup. Is this going to help folk who just need to, EG, stick a pilot in a cockpit but want to focus on getting their plane right? Yup.

I've already agreed it's useful for certain projects where quality isn't an issue, such as Oblivion.
Note the very important proviso 'where quality isn't an issue' though, that's the main point.

oDDity
02-07-2007, 05:35 AM
You're right.

More likely they would take the face model and do something creative with it, make some art. The model isn't an end in itself. On it's own, no matter how much skill went into making it, it's still only a model. A building block to be used with other models, and textures and lighting to create imagery.

I can't really see the difference between using this kind of technology, and purchasing ready made classic furniture models, for example. I really can't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

There's a very big difference.
For a start, furniture modeling is exponentially easier than detailed head modeling, so the packs you buy are no doubt going to be as good as you could have done yourself anyway, even if you are an expert modeler.
There are limited types of furniture, and it's hardbody modeling of bland, generic items that no one can tell the difference if it's not 100% accurate to any particular model.
It's not on the same scale as the infinite subtleties of an individual human face and expression.

Lightwolf
02-07-2007, 05:35 AM
It's not a tool.
A tool is something that helps you achieve a goal in a faster and more efficent manner.
Something like facegen, which actually does the job for you is not a tool, it's a crutch that an produce nothing but prosaic results.

Hm, not quite.
Your job is modelling, so it is doing your job.
But the users goal might be to be done with pesky modellers, so it is a tool for him.
Then again, if you have a problem with software doing your job, you better brush up your skillz ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Bog
02-07-2007, 05:53 AM
It's not a tool.
A tool is something that helps you achieve a goal in a faster and more efficent manner.
Something like facegen, which actually does the job for you is not a tool, it's a crutch that an produce nothing but prosaic results.

It's only doing the job for you if all you're doing is producing a static model. If you intend to do any actual animation, then it's automated a time-consuming and labourious process, letting you get on with the artistry of animation. With the "pilot in a plane" example, it's created a bit of semicomplicated textured geometry, just like a greeble-generator tool, or using XFrog to create a plant.

There's nothing mystical about faces. They're difficult to model, compared to mechanical objects, but there's no holy glowing aura around them that demands they be given some kind of special treatment.


I've already agreed it's useful for certain projects where quality isn't an issue, such as Oblivion.
Note the very important proviso 'where quality isn't an issue' though, that's the main point.

As I've agreed that there's no challenge to high-detail modellers from this software. I maintain, though - there's no reason to be nasty about it.

parm
02-07-2007, 06:18 AM
There's a very big difference.
For a start, furniture modeling is exponentially easier than detailed head modeling, so the packs you buy are no doubt going to be as good as you could have done yourself anyway, even if you are an expert modeler.
There are limited types of furniture, and it's hardbody modeling of bland, generic items that no one can tell the difference if it's not 100% accurate to any particular model.
It's not on the same scale as the infinite subtleties of an individual human face and expression.

Apart from the degree of difficulty bit, being untrue. How is it relevent anyway? if anything, tools that make difficult tasks easier should be welcomed.

If an accurate automatically generated head model has no discernable difference to a hand modelled one. What exactly is the problem with using the automated version for your projects?

colkai
02-07-2007, 06:39 AM
T it's hardbody modeling of bland, generic items that no one can tell the difference if it's not 100% accurate to any particular model.
It's not on the same scale as the infinite subtleties of an individual human face and expression.

No of course not, I mean, all furniture is really simple and all human modelling so complex.
Except of course that is, for when it isn't, in either case.
Just because you may not have an intimate knowledge of furniture history or design does not in any way, detract from the complexity if some of the workings within that furniture.
You are I think, mistakenly basing your very narrow opinion upon purely generic "IKEA" items you probably have lying around the house and not the craftmanship of older works.

I have seen some pieces of furniture that are detailed enough to push any modeller. Even some who may think they are the best in the community bar none.

DogBoy
02-07-2007, 07:16 AM
I can't believe I doubted his wisdom. In deference to the oDD I have renounced all worldly goods (well pens, pencils and natural media) and will focus on becoming a Character modeling god, like my hero.

They modeler is dead, long live the Modeler.

*hic*

StereoMike
02-07-2007, 07:31 AM
You are I think, mistakenly basing your very narrow opinion upon purely generic "IKEA" items you probably have lying around the house and not the craftmanship of older works.

He has not only a narrow mind on furniture:


It's not on the same scale as the infinite subtleties of an individual human face and expression.

In fact he thinks he's the only one who found the holy grail. All the other 3D guys seems to do only "stuff", he does "infinite subtleties of an individual human face and expression".
So obvious he's defending his assets against new technology.

mike

cresshead
02-07-2007, 07:51 AM
quite an entertaining read, this thread..

i wonder how our friend see's mudbox and zbrush...seeing as you can make a face/head from just a ball with little or no regard to topology if you so wish..or jmore importantly ust a basic 'generic' head mesh as a start point to make many different heads from...so is z brush and mudbox taking away the work from quality poly modelers?

DogBoy
02-07-2007, 08:00 AM
In fact he thinks he's the only one who found the holy grail. All the other 3D guys seems to do only "stuff", he does "infinite subtleties of an individual human face and expression".
So obvious he's defending his assets against new technology.

mike

Mike! mike! Say it's not so! Do you really think there is more to life than the human figure and being a really, really, really good character modeler?

You mean people do OTHER kinds of 3D and are fulfilled. Should I take all my art materials off Ebay? Maybe I should stop my tatooist from etching oDDitys scowling features on my back :hey: .

Dang! Disillusioned again :(

Cress: he likes them. He wasn't sure about Mudbox at first (ZBrush was the coolest), but once they offered him the beta he thought it shined :D

metahumanity
02-07-2007, 08:57 AM
:d :d :d

lwaddict
02-07-2007, 09:46 AM
DogBoy...

I too, have been enlightened by the almighty goDDity.

I've just uninstalled our backup system to return to the fine art of copying and pasting the files and folder to the backup drive. Who needs dragging? That's not a tool, at least, not to a true copy/paster. And then I can spend some time adding the securities to each and every folder...OMG...it's genious I TELL YOU!!!

I've also given away my car to some talentless hack who knows not about the benefits of walking 30 miles to and from work. Idiot.

And Lightwave's gotta go too...along with all these software gadgets and gizmos...who needs em? I mean really...we had perfectly good coding procedures with which to dictate lines and their RGB colors and now all these buttons and mouse commands are simply there for those who can't handle the fine art of "0"s and "1"s.

Gotta run now...
my fields are ready for the picking.

Oh...did I forget that we will no longer be going to the grocery store.

Anyone know the best art filled way of skinning a bull?

CMT
02-07-2007, 01:54 PM
so is z brush and mudbox taking away the work from quality poly modelers?

I don't get the analogy. If a good poly modeler can make some great models, he/she can undoubtedly make even better models with ZBrush or Mudbox. It's not taking anything away from them.


lor..some of the hand keyed camera animation was really poor too...still the film was entertaining..i liked it!
thought he motion captured ''camera'' of the troll fight done by the director was amazing...
..Hmmm mo cap vs hand key...mo cap won!

I liked the way Monster House's camera motion was done. They had a physical interface to move the camera within the 3d environment. Kinda like motion capture, but more interactive with the scene.


In a commercial environment there is always the pressure to get the job done faster and cheaper. Hence the development of push button heads. But the real visionaries have passion and know how to get the balance right.

There's a limit to how much automation you allow before everything becomes homogenous gloop. Kraftwerk are great but gimme the Clash any day :D

Btw, nothing has yet transcended the pioneering work of Ray.

****ed straight!

jin choung
02-07-2007, 10:12 PM
Stop going on about mud and sticks, it makes you sound like an imbecile, and has zero relevance to the conversation.

oh... so the gloves are coming off eh?

:devil:

ok odd,

come on sport, you can be belligerent and self involved without name calling can't you? don't get frustrated that you fail to grasp the finer points of discourse. i'm sure there'll be plenty of patient, kind folk who'll be able to take you gently by the hand and guide you through life's more intellectually demanding straits.

come on now. buck up. there there. go back and noodle around with your computer. atta boy.

oh, and wipe off the drool from your chin sweetie.

jin

cresshead
02-07-2007, 10:14 PM
jin...remember he's a perfectionist....maybe he's mastered sumo as well as anatomy?

jin choung
02-07-2007, 10:35 PM
do you not have eyes to see that in my hands, i restrain two beasts who can wreak havoc, destruction and chaos and can also really nibble the heck out of an ankle?!

at my command, they unleash he11! and perhaps fleas!

the twin dooms of fluffybear and mr. cuddlebunny await!

jin

Bog
02-08-2007, 02:53 AM
do you not have eyes to see that in my hands, i restrain two beasts who can wreak havoc, destruction and chaos and can also really nibble the heck out of an ankle?!

at my command, they unleash he11! and perhaps fleas!

the twin dooms of fluffybear and mr. cuddlebunny await!

jin


You, sir, are a sick, sick man. I say that with the deepest admiration.

It's been my experience that whenever a discussion gets a bit too factual or level-headed for certain forum users they throw in a couple of personal comments just to rile the other person. Gutter debating at it's worse, I've vowed not to lower myself to it in future.

jin choung
02-08-2007, 03:21 AM
:)

cheers,

jin

jbarker
02-08-2007, 04:57 AM
Thus spake someone who blatantly didn't use 3D before there were Magnet tools available. Anyway, you're missing my point by a country mile. Facegen - it's a tool. I doubt anyone would ever use it and then proudly proclaim "I did this face. Behold my art". If they did, the first question anyone would ask would be either: "How did you model that?" or "How long did it take you?"

The answer would make it obvious that a photomodeler had been used. If someone had a showreel consisting only of Facegen models, then they wouldn't be getting any particularly great gigs.

Is this taking something away from high-detail face modellers? Nope. Is this undermining the artistic integrity of the visual effects industry (HAW!)? Nope.

Is this going to be a huge timesaver for projects where lavishing days and weeks on every head in the shot isn't an option? Yup. Is this going to help folk who just need to, EG, stick a pilot in a cockpit but want to focus on getting their plane right? Yup.

Does this make people who use it worthless hacks as you keep saying? Nope.

Is there any reason to be nasty about it? Nope.


Well said. Me thinks someone needs to refocus on the fine line between "Professional Cynic" and arrogant a$$hole.

Hey, what can I say? I can be just as petty as the next guy. I'm not proud of it..........oh who am I kidding. Yes I am!

DiedonD
02-08-2007, 05:34 AM
Man I knew he was an a$$hole ever since the beginning. Its just that I treat these kind of people kinda more differently than the above. Ive never had any comment of any kind from him ever since then, though. I only regret that sometimes people dont get at once what I just found out about a person. Which leads to my attacks beeing mistinterpreted as me: Going over the line, too harsh, bully, Villan, and the like. I told you he was like this, slowly everyone is getting the idea. Its just that people might have a wrong idea about me along the way...

faulknermano
02-08-2007, 05:45 AM
frankly, in my opinion, a person wouldnt be as half as bad as any kind of rudeness they possess if that person had possessed either skill / knowledge / reason / logic in matters being discussed, or the ability to realise he/she was wrong and adjust accordingly. unfortunately, based on the arguments, i opine that is not the case.

DiedonD
02-08-2007, 06:05 AM
frankly, in my opinion, a person wouldnt be as half as bad as any kind of rudeness they possess if that person had possessed either skill / knowledge / reason / logic in matters being discussed, or the ability to realise he/she was wrong and adjust accordingly. unfortunately, based on the arguments, i opine that is not the case.

Thereby, after theres already an insulting person, assuming that he/she doesnt has the facets described above, there shouldnt be a need to reply to the insult with more skill, knowledge, reason, logic. Cause they dont have it, wont understand it, and whats worse they only understand force, threats, and that kind of conditioning. I know its improper, people may add improper images on you, and its nowhere near beeing polite, but It sure takes care of these kinds of people, thats for sure.

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 06:08 AM
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a disorder in which a person has a grandiose self-importance, preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, a driven desire for attention and admiration, an intolerance of criticism, and disturbed self-centered interpersonal relations. They are often referred to as being conceited. They generally have a low self-esteem, as well. They act selfish interpersonally, with a sense of entitlement."

DiedonD
02-08-2007, 07:08 AM
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a disorder in which a person has a grandiose self-importance, preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, a driven desire for attention and admiration, an intolerance of criticism, and disturbed self-centered interpersonal relations. They are often referred to as being conceited. They generally have a low self-esteem, as well. They act selfish interpersonally, with a sense of entitlement."

Thats what they say in uni, and in this case it fits well. But where does that leaves us? If we deal with him we only give him more of what he craves so desperately (Attention). Cause wherever you may have found the definition of Personality Disorders, in this case Narcissistic, somewhere down there also should say that this one too, among most of Personality Disorders reacts poorly in Psychotherapy. So I usually speak in the here and now terms, since this will go on, what would be the best course of action regarding him?
Cause I cant stand seeing people that I find amazing beeing belitled by an attention craver. Furthermore, you guys usually maintain the polite, reasoning approach, which when I see it, I just know what will happen. He'll continue belittling you while you still go soft on him. :foreheads
I dont know, all I can say is that I dont like it when it happens, to you or to me, and we should do something about it. Theres no treatment/change, and this can go on indefinitely, and I cant attack him forever, both because thats what he wants, and because some other people that may not go through this thread, wouldnt understand my actions again. So Im saying lets give the attention craver, that Im sure is in heaven now reading all this attention thats about him, one last attention, find an approproate course of action, and be done with him. I can speak for myself I cant ignore seeing him belittling you, later on him, and then him, and then my friends, while I stand there and do nothing.

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 07:37 AM
Careful people...
oDDity was just spotted driving down the freeway wearing a NASA diaper, totoing some pepper spray and a list of names whilst muttering to himself behind the wheel! :cursin:

oDDity
02-08-2007, 08:38 AM
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a disorder in which a person has a grandiose self-importance, preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, a driven desire for attention and admiration, an intolerance of criticism, and disturbed self-centered interpersonal relations. They are often referred to as being conceited. They generally have a low self-esteem, as well. They act selfish interpersonally, with a sense of entitlement."
You can hardly blame me though, half of you guys seem to be obsessed with me, the likes of you and lwaddict can hardly make a post that doesn't concern me, even when I leave for a month, you guys start threads to talk about me, I can't show a piece of work at CG Talk without it getting in the award gallery, and I get several emails a week with people asking me to work for them.
In other words, if I do have a mild feeling of importance, it's not an illusion, but a reality.
You on the other hand, no one is interested in or concerned with or will ever notice, but feel free to try to steal a bit of my limelight by constantly throwing provocative posts in my direciton in the hope that I will stoop down to reply to you.
It worked this time, and you probably free all warm and fuzzy now as you read this, but don't count on it happening again.

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 09:20 AM
What makes you think the post was directed at you?:D

DogBoy
02-08-2007, 09:29 AM
You can hardly blame me though, half of you guys seem to be obsessed with me, the likes of you and lwaddict can hardly make a post that doesn't concern me, even when I leave for a month, you guys start threads to talk about me, I can't show a piece of work at CG Talk without it getting in the award gallery, and I get several emails a week with people asking me to work for them.
In other words, if I do have a mild feeling of importance, it's not an illusion, but a reality.
You on the other hand, no one is interested in or concerned with or will ever notice, but feel free to try to steal a bit of my limelight by constantly throwing provocative posts in my direciton in the hope that I will stoop down to reply to you.
It worked this time, and you probably free all warm and fuzzy now as you read this, but don't count on it happening again.

Quoted in full because it is so funny. You crack me up, li'l buddy.

One thing. Though you may feel the sun shines out of your fundament, most people can't see that as your head is jammed so tightly up it.

So loosen the **** up. Take a deep breathe and realise that just because people don't see stuff the way you do doesn't make either of you wrong.

Maybe thats a little to grayscale for you.

DogBoy
02-08-2007, 09:41 AM
I hath taken the name of my lord, oDD in vain, though hallowed is the oDD.
I shall go hence and scourge myself with the Jitter tool, until I repent.

:help: Forgive me Blather, for I hath sinned.

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 09:46 AM
you guys seem to be obsessed with me, the likes of you and lwaddict can hardly make a post that doesn't concern me,

Out of my 76 posts so far 1 was directed at you with a polite and serious question, which you chose not to respond to for reasons that are obvious by now...you couldnīt without revealing the paradox your attitude is.

Then another one was a snappy, but still friendly comment about you to Dave Jerrard.

Hm, ok with this one we are up to 4 out of 76....you are right, hardly not a post thatīs not about you.

See, by this math one suspects that you consider the viagra mails to be work proposals...

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 10:10 AM
Oh, and btw, while certainly quite impressive in their overall flow and proportions, there are several muscles and tendons, and the horse ribcage, in your sculpts that are not anatomically correct.

Just dial all that attitude a little bit down, pal.

5 out of 78...ouch

3Djapanese
02-08-2007, 10:52 AM
yes that is awsome ..:) high I am a new to the forum but ..I agree totally with what u have said Dirk ....

DogBoy
02-08-2007, 11:11 AM
Oh, and btw, while certainly quite impressive in their overall flow and proportions, there are several muscles and tendons, and the horse ribcage, in your sculpts that are not anatomically correct.


Hmmm, true. So he can only model humans, at least he does that well :hey: . Who cares about animal anatomy anyway?

Or drawing?
or ArchViz?
or anything else?

:devil:

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 12:11 PM
That's entirely beside the point...

He said my name.

Awe man, now I need help...:(
anyone know where the smilie with the burning bush is?

By the way, and I realize this may fall on deaf ears...
When a group of your peers tell you something negative about yourself,
you might want to sit back and at least try to look at it as an intervention and not an attack.

oDDity
02-08-2007, 01:17 PM
Here you all are, as usual, blabbering on about modeling, what makes a good modeler/bad modeler, a good model/bad model, yet none of you can actually model above novice level, a few of you maybe intermediate level if you have a detailed tutorial to follow and a base mesh to model around.
Of course, as often happens in forum arguments, because there's more of you talking the talk, it makes your opinion seem the dominant one, and therefore the accurate one, while in reality it has all the the value and merit of blind men discussing the view.
Feel free to carry on arguing amongst yourselves about what you would see if your eyes worked, I can't blame you for being curious.

Bog
02-08-2007, 01:21 PM
Gee, I guess all the TV credits and magazine write-ups with my name in are suddenly valueless. Strangely, I feel in no way lessenned. I trust none of you do either.

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 01:31 PM
I'm going to end it all now. No, don't try to stop me. That's it. I'm sticking my head in the oven as soon as I'm done this post. No point in going on anymore.


He Who Thought He Was Doing OK Too.

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 01:35 PM
Ok.. That sucked. Darned microwave oven won't start with the door open... This is going to be harder than I thought. Now I'l lhave to actually work at it, get down on the floor and use the big oven...


He Who Hopes No-One Tries To Stop Him This Time Either.

Bog
02-08-2007, 01:39 PM
Pfft. An oven's not a tool. Not if it does the job for you.

Where's the art?

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 01:39 PM
LMAO.

:help:

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 01:41 PM
Sorry, but you must be stopped...
especially by someone looking down upon you as you have no talent.

I mean really, using a microwave.
While this shows the urge to be creative it shows a lack of the gift.

A microwave isn't a tool. Especially since you can't close the door, you hack.

Look around you. Set you sights higher, much, much higher.

You may be able to put yourself into a classification one day with others who've truly mastered the art of suicide.

OH OH OH!!!
Maybe, oh gawd please, MAYBE we can talk goDDity into showing us how it's done eh?

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 01:42 PM
Now that just made my day. Good one. Yep, an oven's not a tool. Though I think I am. You know, with your head in an over, you can't reach the controls to turn it on. I guess it IS a tool - it didn't do the job for me.

He Who Is Thinking About Jumping Out The Window Now.

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 01:42 PM
This is where you guys offer to lend a hand crafted, wood burning, outdoor, mudbased kiln.

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 01:43 PM
Only artistic way to do it would be jumping off a building...but then again, gravity could be considered a tool, too.

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 01:48 PM
A microwave isn't a tool. Especially since you can't close the door, you hack.

Look around you. Set you sights higher, much, much higher.Ah! You're right! The freezer! I can do that standing up! Hmm. light sockets.. Hmph... No good, lights in those... Can't jump high enough to crack my head open on the ceiling. Probably just punch a hole up there if I did, and then I'd have to pay to have it fixed....

Window thing just looked silly. Ground floor. Still, it was less painful than using Windows.

Screw it. Oven time. This time, I'll turn it on first.


He Who Hopes It Doesn't Take Too Long Because It's An Electric Stove.

Bog
02-08-2007, 01:49 PM
Don't do it, Dave! Think of the generations of potential 3D artists who could learn from how crap your work is as an example of how not to do it!*

**Caution. Excess of 38,000 times the RDA of irony

CMT
02-08-2007, 01:51 PM
Ah! You're right! The freezer! I can do that standing up! Hmm. light sockets.. Hmph... No good, lights in those... Can't jump high enough to crack my head open on the ceiling. Probably just punch a hole up there if I did, and then I'd have to pay to have it fixed....

Window thing just looked silly. Ground floor. Still, it was less painful than using Windows.

Screw it. Oven time. This time, I'll turn it on first.


He Who Hopes It Doesn't Take Too Long Because It's An Electric Stove.

Ahh... don't make it hard for yourself. Just use a rope. But you'll have to weave it yourself from your own hair....

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 01:53 PM
Feel free to carry on arguing amongst yourselves about what you would see if your eyes worked, I can't blame you for being curious.

Thatīs kind of poetic..really beautyfull.

Bog
02-08-2007, 01:54 PM
Ahh... don't make it hard for yourself. Just use a rope. But you'll have to weave it yourself from your own hair....

Take it you've not seen The Dave's hair, then? Easy noose from those long, flowing, chestnut locks. Their inner gleam refracting the firelight like tomorrow's dawn rays, the silken...

Eh. What? Yeah! Facegen. Useful, that.

*koff*

metahumanity
02-08-2007, 02:05 PM
Bog looooves Dave! Bog loooves Dave!! Nha nha nhanhanha Nha!

:o

Bog
02-08-2007, 02:06 PM
Bog does not love Dave as much as he's frightened of Celshader.

Bog's sense of self-preservation is well-formed.

But to know Dave is to love Dave.... *sigh*

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 02:10 PM
Ok... That was hot... And I thought California summers were hot. Well, I won't make a habit of that. All that effort made me hungry, and the oven's hot, so I'll heat up some leftover fried chicken.

Now there's an idea!



He Who Will Eat That Stuff, Which Is Certain To Kill Him.

Bog
02-08-2007, 02:20 PM
Hey, I'm listening to C64 and Amiga remixes. If that's not gonna kill me, then what is?

taproot2
02-08-2007, 02:25 PM
Well of course, as one of the talentless button pushers of this world, you can't wait to be able to generate a full digital sculpt with textures and morphs with a button push and a photo, then use your autorigger plugin and mo cap data to animate it with the push of 2 more buttons.
Just thinking about the prospect of it actually makes you happy
All I can say is, you'd be better of working in a canning factory, making sure all the labels are straight. You'd have a more interesting and fulfilling day, and at least you'd be able to claim you'd achieved something.

As far as I can see, the only difference between 2 buttons being pushed and 2000 buttons being pushed is about 1998 buttons. Try and be less of a clown. I'm willing to bet that you'll be stuck for a long,long time pushing buttons(perhaps a whole lot of them) to produce models based on what the creative people draw for you. Until you produce your credit list, your boasts are nothing more than luke-warm air in the breeze. Respond if you wish, but please, include your credits that we can check out.
Chris Provine

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 02:38 PM
Hey, I'm listening to C64 and Amiga remixes. If that's not gonna kill me, then what is?
the mod is life. Except Die Again. That's just cool.


He Who Wonders If Anyone Here Knows Who Bjorn Lynne Is.

cresshead
02-08-2007, 02:39 PM
if were all living in a babylon 5 universe [we arn't btw!] then i truly believe that out mr oddity is ....


http://www.wfp51744.w1.com/jurasik.jpg


''always stirring up trouble''
[add the accent when you read that!]


:D :thumbsup:

Bog
02-08-2007, 02:39 PM
I assume you mean "Anyone but Bog", Dave. ;)

cresshead
02-08-2007, 02:47 PM
who, this chap?

http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/images/bjorn3a.jpg

StereoMike
02-08-2007, 02:58 PM
I can only think of one method of suicide without using tools:
strangling yourself with your own hands.
Could be hard.

mike

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 03:01 PM
who, this chap?I guess that's him. Dr. Awesome himself!


He Who Remembers Most Of The Best Mods Were By Him.

Dave Jerrard
02-08-2007, 03:02 PM
I can only think of one method of suicide without using tools:
strangling yourself with your own hands.
Could be hard.

mike
Yep. It's the sneaking up from behind that really adds to the difficulty.


He Who Always Hears Me Coming.

Bog
02-08-2007, 03:05 PM
I guess that's him. Dr. Awesome himself!


He Who Remembers Most Of The Best Mods Were By Him.

As opposed to Mr Awesome, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3gW_91bjkg) another person who made his career by doing one very narrow task well. For a while. Until someone else beat him. (Link not safe for work)

You really don't want to know what happenned after a mate of mine smashed Mr. Awesome's world record. It got really ugly. In the not-funny way.

Short-range sensors are detecting parallels, Captain.

art
02-08-2007, 03:05 PM
Hey, I'm listening to C64 and Amiga remixes. If that's not gonna kill me, then what is?

Where do you get those? I've heard several people mentioning the remixes.

Bog
02-08-2007, 03:10 PM
Well, there's http://remix.kwed.org for the free C64 stuff, http://www.c64audio.com/ for the pro-grade studio-session stuff just for starters. http://www.pressplayontape.com for a jolly good fun concept band and the like, and the rest we should probably take to private messages to preserve the purity (HAW!) of the thread...

art
02-08-2007, 03:18 PM
Thanks!

Just to remain close to the topic, is it even remotely possible that one day you'd be able to "upload" human/animal DNA to a computer/device and get a 3d mesh of the human/animal?

Bog
02-08-2007, 03:19 PM
Thanks!

Just to remain close to the topic, is it even remotely possible that one day you'd be able to "upload" human/animal DNA to a computer/device and get a 3d mesh of the human/animal?

Absolutely and of course. Not this year or next year, but sooner or later.

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 03:19 PM
Button Pusher!!!!

Bog
02-08-2007, 03:21 PM
Button Pusher!!!!

Give me a Galaxy Class Starship's holodeck - the ultimate button push - and I'll still make you crap your pants.

Because even photoreal models of photoreal everything cannot do anything for you unless emotion drives them. And I - in my arrogance - consider myself blessed with emotions other than, erm, arrogance.

Come to that, I roused emotions from people when I was inputting vertices one by one from a bit of graph paper, then their connection order. Then their motions paths. From graph paper.

Some people can't do anything without fancy tools.

art
02-08-2007, 03:30 PM
Who knows, maybe the beforementioned DNA machine (with lots of big gears and steam pipes inside) would also give us texturing and hair for free?

T-Light
02-08-2007, 03:31 PM
Oh my G*d Bog Sir, nice one.

Just did a quick search on 'War, never been so much fun' from the Sensible game.

Found these.
The chaps behind cannon fodder singing to the song in 'Madness' style...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1075560399001972892
and the original intro...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3931327730235518405

Memories :)
Thought these had been lost for all time.

WOAHH THERE, could it be possible Oddy's working on the High res faces for the new version of sensible soccer???

Bog
02-08-2007, 03:31 PM
Only if you hooked it up to one of them fancy-pants Stero Lithography machines, which of course is a debasement because you're crossing formats.

Bog
02-08-2007, 03:52 PM
T-Light old stick, you may just need to start coming to some of the retro gaming gigs. ****, I've been roped into doing spare-time visuals for 'em from time to time... *snigger* ****, my ancient Wizball video's on YouTube someplace. I think I spent a total of about two weeks on it 7 years ago...!

*edit* Yup, and the timing's off ;)

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 03:57 PM
Note to self: Keep Bog away from my buttons. :help:

Bog
02-08-2007, 03:58 PM
Not my buttons!

Not my gum-drop buttons!

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 03:58 PM
YouTube?
You dare mention YouTube on this thread?

LOL

lwaddict
02-08-2007, 03:58 PM
Can't hack real gum eh?

DogBoy
02-09-2007, 02:24 AM
Here you all are, as usual, blabbering on about modeling, what makes a good modeler/bad modeler, a good model/bad model, yet none of you can actually model above novice level, a few of you maybe intermediate level if you have a detailed tutorial to follow and a base mesh to model around.

NT must be feeling sorry for us no-hopers. They charitably interviewed one of us (probably to stop him from trying to commit suicide).

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/profiles/DaveJerrard/

Dave there is hope for you yet.

One thing, where did you find the tutorial for the space-station? It must have been a good one to get those results :thumbsup: .
(or was it a "make frikkin cool space-station" automated script?).

Bog
02-09-2007, 03:01 AM
NT must be feeling sorry for us no-hopers. They charitably interviewed one of us (probably to stop him from trying to commit suicide).

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/profiles/DaveJerrard/

Dave there is hope for you yet.

One thing, where did you find the tutorial for the space-station? It must have been a good one to get those results :thumbsup: .
(or was it a "make frikkin cool space-station" automated script?).

*sniffles and hugs his profile to his chest*

I had my interview first!

;)

colkai
02-09-2007, 03:03 AM
Ahh... don't make it hard for yourself. Just use a rope. But you'll have to weave it yourself from your own hair....

Did you see him a few years ago, his hair was long enough he coulda made a good start! :) ;)

DiedonD
02-09-2007, 03:11 AM
Ok.... This is getting strange. Why try to make a futile attempt to proove the narcissist that there are better people than him? Ever since my last post here, theres been nothing but reward of attention. I was thinking something more differently. Like the webmaster should make a sticky post like the ones that you see everyday there, named: LW's blacksheep, Blacklist, or something of the like. Where informations about him would be available, and his responses, together with what he responded to would be put there. Among his most insulting after a normal guys normal post, should be there. And the sticky post would always remain there for everyone to see.
Now, after having a record of him like that, we can start starving him of attention that he craves so much. And if someone talks to him (gives attention) we could tell him not to and provide a link of that sticky record of him there. Adding to less replies to him. So he'll keep on starving. And feeding with what he received till now, I can tell you theres a long way to go.

Of course Newtek cant ban him. They need his products that are made of their software. But they can make a sticky thread like that instead. Eventually he'll starv of attention, and all his attempts to receive it by such insult shouldnt be rewarded with attention at that crucial stage. And sometimes in the future he'll either be forced to act decently, or if his narcicism prevails, he'll move to another forum altogether. Either way we would be satisfied (I think), Newtek can be satisfied with less unrest, and even he can be satisfied with his name on a sticky blacklist thread (Which may mean to the narcisist that he is god knows what, or has achieved eternal attention, and pride).

These behavioral techniques of fading are ideal where you can effect a whole environment like this. We are the environment, and if we all act in unisom, Im so positive that it can work, that Im even explaining the technique of how it will go, openly, for EVERYONE, including him, to see.

Dave Jerrard
02-09-2007, 03:16 AM
I used the internet to do it for me. :)


He Who had The Internet Do Research Stuff For Him.

tonybliss
02-09-2007, 03:32 AM
Or arrange a meeting and measure those cocks to get it over and done with.

TRUST ME ... I WILL win ...
...and that will be the beginning of a whole new debauchery.

DiedonD
02-09-2007, 03:33 AM
I can't believe that it's actually adult people who participate in this thread. And that goes both ways.

Seriously, get on with whatever you're doing. This mud slinging contest is pathetic.

Or arrange a meeting and measure those cocks to get it over and done with.

Ok... My account is 1000199109019. Send the plain ticket money, and some interventions at Visa office for Great Britain. The next thing would be a good lawyer, after Im done with him, the only way he'll retaliate is that way, and do fix this 24 hours a day man. Its far too little. Add me an extra 25 hour just for that day that I go for a visit to him. Thanks for the tip, why didnt I figure that one sooner.

Other than that, he never did made a direct move on me, ever since. Its about stoping him from doing the insults on others that is the issue here now.

colkai
02-09-2007, 05:16 AM
Reason: Why does everything I love burn?

Hmm, nought to do with that massive flame thrower you carry around is it? :p

colkai
02-09-2007, 05:19 AM
Or arrange a meeting and measure those cocks to get it over and done with.
I can never catch mine, it's always running around after hens, :chicken: or did you not mean... :foreheads ohh..I see... :eek: ...gosh. how naughty!
:gotpics: :devil:

DogBoy
02-09-2007, 05:21 AM
Seriously, get on with whatever you're doing. This mud slinging contest is pathetic.

Or arrange a meeting and measure those cocks to get it over and done with.

Yeah, I'm really sorry. I just let things get out of control. My bad, I'll try to act more adult in future :o

lwaddict
02-09-2007, 10:01 AM
ROFLMAO...

Hey, relax, the thread just went wrong and turned fun along the way. It happens. LOL.

And...sorry, but there's no way I'm traveling to compete against MuleBoy. May as well just have Simon call me on the phone and say, "NO". LOL.