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John the Geek
01-15-2007, 08:55 AM
Maya 8.5 is now Universal Binary.


As of Maya 8.5, Intel®-based Macintosh® computer support is provided as a Universal binary – so you can use 32-bit Maya software on either the PowerPC®- or Intel-based Macintosh computers.

Full Article (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=7635167)

Availability? ... now. (http://estore.autodesk.com/dr/v2/ec_dynamic.main?sp=1&pn=1&sid=19515)

=(

dglidden
01-15-2007, 09:24 AM
At least we KNOW we've got Chilton working on it. Autodesk has been totally silent about the prospect of anyone ever getting a UB version until this announcement, which IMO was a lot less encouraging than knowing it's "Real Soon Now".

Chilton
01-15-2007, 09:38 AM
Bah!

Oh well. Anyone have specs on what their UB offers?

-Chilton

John the Geek
01-15-2007, 09:48 AM
Nope, it took an accident to stumble upon it in the first place, so they aren't bragging too much about it either. Makes me wonder if they just recompiled for Intel or if they actually took the time to optimize for it.

Chilton
01-15-2007, 10:00 AM
Looks like their users are wondering the same thing.

http://discussion.autodesk.com/adskcsp/thread.jspa?threadID=534270

Hmm. They ported their app to XCode long ago, I wonder what's taking so long :devil:

-Chilton

BazC
01-15-2007, 10:14 AM
Being available and working right are not necessarily the same thing. A certain competitor of LW which has had a UB version for quite a while now has some serious bugs on Intel machines, if you have a Nvidia card it's completely unuseable! I'm counting on LW UB being free of any really major bugs! :D

eidetiken
01-15-2007, 10:17 AM
Well NewTek announced the availability of Lightwave UB Beta last week, but apparently there is some confusion about exactly when the UB Beta will be available. Hmmm

Tartiflette
01-15-2007, 10:19 AM
At least we KNOW we've got Chilton working on it. Autodesk has been totally silent about the prospect of anyone ever getting a UB version until this announcement, which IMO was a lot less encouraging than knowing it's "Real Soon Now".

True, but it has always been the same concerning Maya in the past. So one would think that Maya users are "aware" of the way it is...

Bah, at least, being so late having an Universal Binary of LightWave (no pun intended to you Chilton, that's just the way it is... :hey: ) i think it's better to be the last one instead of any other place !

"If you can't be first, be the last, you'll be remembered more than the others !" :D (and you know you can only do better !!! :devil: )


Regards,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

Tartiflette
01-15-2007, 10:21 AM
Well NewTek announced the availability of Lightwave UB Beta last week, but apparently there is some confusion about exactly when the UB Beta will be available. Hmmm

Let's assume it's "later", then... :devil:

We can only be nearer with each day passing, though ! :D


Regards,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

ScottSullivan
01-15-2007, 10:21 AM
Antz grossed $90 million domestically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antz)
A Bug's Life grossed $162 million dollars domestically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bug's_Life)

Antz was released one month before A Bug's Life.

Just goes to show, being first isn't everything. I'm thrilled NT has decided to do something RIGHT instead of doing something QUICK.

Thanks to everyone at NT, especially Chilton's hard work and humor in the face of mounting criticism.

Scott

Chilton
01-15-2007, 10:44 AM
Hi,

The UB will be ready as soon as the major bugs in it are dead. Right now we still have a few. It sucks, but that's just how it is right now. It would probably help if I hadn't spent the weekend being sick. It did give me time to work on the new Phlegm Shader though.

It's *really close*, but I know if we released it now our users would find all of the known bugs a few minutes after downloading it.

-Chilton

harlan
01-15-2007, 10:50 AM
Good point Scott, but it's not about being "first", it's about being "last" and us having to WAIT for what seems like FOREVER!!!!! ;)

harlan
01-15-2007, 10:54 AM
The UB will be ready as soon as the major bugs in it are dead. Right now we still have a few. It sucks, but that's just how it is right now. It would probably help if I hadn't spent the weekend being sick. It did give me time to work on the new Phlegm Shader though.

You and me both, brutha... seems like everyone was sick this past week/weekend. Hmmm, was that Phlegm Shader used on those new animated booger TV commercials? Those commercials are naaaasty, but at least they're not as annoying as "head on, apply directly to your forehead". :)


It's *really close*, but I know if we released it now our users would find all of the known bugs a few minutes after downloading it.

Ummm... isn't that called beta testing?? ;)

Chilton
01-15-2007, 11:00 AM
It might be slightly irresponsible to call it 'beta' when it contains known bugs.

I think beta should be what we'd normally ship if we hadn't already run into Murphy's Law.

-Chilton

John the Geek
01-15-2007, 11:07 AM
I agree that if it's got bugs that immediately get in our way then they should be fixed first before we test it. Beta testing is about discovering new bugs the developers hadn't, not reporting the ones they already know about.

But soon enough... I've waited this long, I can wait a little longer.

harlan
01-15-2007, 11:10 AM
It might be slightly irresponsible to call it 'beta' when it contains known bugs. -Chilton


Yeah, I was just playing... breakin balls and what not.

harlan
01-15-2007, 11:12 AM
But soon enough... I've waited this long, I can wait a little longer.


Whoa... John... Buddy... what are you doing? Don't give them any more incentive to "take their time"!!! :)

Chilton
01-15-2007, 11:12 AM
Hi John,


I agree that if it's got bugs that immediately get in our way then they should be fixed first before we test it.

Some of these would get in everyone's way, thus the need to fix them. If they were minor and/or difficult to reproduce, we'd probably send it out.

-Chilton

harlan
01-15-2007, 11:14 AM
Oh, I'm not sure if any of you guys use Maya in addition to your LW usage or not, but the new 8.5 release is pretty snazzy (blech... did I just say snazzy?)!

The new nCloth features are absolutely wicked and the UB is niiiice... can't wait for the LW UB!!!!

harlan
01-15-2007, 11:15 AM
If they were minor and/or difficult to reproduce, we'd probably send it out.


Go ahead and send it over here, Chilton, I'd be happy to take a look at those bugs for ya. ;) hehehe

John the Geek
01-15-2007, 11:20 AM
Oh, I'm not sure if any of you guys use Maya in addition to your LW usage or not, but the new 8.5 release is pretty snazzy (blech... did I just say snazzy?)!

The new nCloth features are absolutely wicked and the UB is niiiice... can't wait for the LW UB!!!!

So once the LW UB is in your hands, would you care to give us an objective play-by-play on your impressions of each one respectively? In the OpenBeta forums, of course.

Chilton
01-15-2007, 11:21 AM
Harlan,

Is the UB version of Maya different than their other platforms' versions, or do you know? Any Mac specific technologies?

-Chilton

harlan
01-15-2007, 11:31 AM
So once the LW UB is in your hands, would you care to give us an objective play-by-play on your impressions of each one respectively? In the OpenBeta forums, of course.


Most assuredly.

harlan
01-15-2007, 11:38 AM
Harlan,

Is the UB version of Maya different than their other platforms' versions, or do you know? Any Mac specific technologies?

-Chilton


No, not really.

There are a few interface niceties on the Mac version that don't exist on the Win/Linux versions, but that's due to OSX itself.

In the past, the Mac version was only available in the form of Maya Complete, and they spent a lot of time bringing the Unlimited version to OSX; and since then they've pretty much maintained feature parity across their supported platforms.

I haven't been able to really delve into the depths of Maya 8.5 yet, but I will say that it's considerably faster than the PPC (naturally). The UI is fluid and speedy, dynamic & sim calc's seem to be a lot faster than the PPC version. In terms of stability and performance, the Maya UB is firing on all twelve.

I can't wait to have the stability & speed improvements in LW offered by the UB. Bring it on!! :)

harlan
01-15-2007, 12:44 PM
Man, I am thoroughly impressed with the new nCloth feature in Maya 8.5. If NT ever looks intently at updating the cloth sim in LW; Maya's nCloth would be a great place to start ripping ideas from. Actually the whole nucleus architecture is quite impressive.

If you get a chance, check out the new container node feature. It works like capsules do in Combustion. Basically, they allow you to encapsulate nodes into a single node. Imagine having a shader consisting of 300 nodes, with capsules/containers you can group portions or the entire structure into a single node - that single capsule node maintains the entire node structure in an editable form; so you can just double click the capsule node and it'll open up the node structure so you can tweak it and then minimize it back down to a single node (kind of like nesting nodes into a single node).

Anyway... just tossing ideas out while we wait !! :)

harlan
01-15-2007, 12:53 PM
Hey Chilton,

Will you guys be taking advantage of the Multi-Threaded OGL capabilities offered by the latest OSX builds? Proper implementation of Multi-Threaded OGL yields some insanely improved GL performance. World of Warcraft for example released an update to take advantage of the Multi-Threaded OGL offered by OSX.4.8; and framerates went up from 60fps to like 98fps on the same hardware just by supporting Multi-Threaded OGL.

Maya 8.5 supports multi-threaded OGL on the Mac, and the performance difference is utterly astonishing. I'd love to see it supported in the LW UB - I'm not sure if it's been discussed before (probably has, you guys here seem to always be on top of things).

Ryhnio
01-15-2007, 01:18 PM
"...Any Mac specific technologies?

-Chilton"

My mind wonders what Chilton has up his sleeve with his question!

-Ryhnio

eblu
01-15-2007, 03:03 PM
welcome to the Harlan thread! j/k

harlan
01-15-2007, 03:22 PM
LOL!!!

I'm still a bit under the weather so I stayed home from work today, and have nothing to do but talk to myself here on the forums. :)

Tartiflette
01-15-2007, 05:22 PM
LOL!!!

I'm still a bit under the weather so I stayed home from work today, and have nothing to do but talk to myself here on the forums. :)

:D

Now that's what i'd call a good day !

"What did you do today ?"
"Oh, i've written a lot on the forums, replying to myself in a neverending monolog !!"
"Sounds cool"
"Yeah definitely ! Lot of great ideas came out !"

:D :D


Keep on feeding this thread Harlan, it's cool ! :thumbsup:


Regards,
Laurent aka Tartiflette :)

Captain Obvious
01-15-2007, 05:31 PM
Antz grossed $90 million domestically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antz)
A Bug's Life grossed $162 million dollars domestically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bug's_Life)

Antz was released one month before A Bug's Life.

Just goes to show, being first isn't everything. I'm thrilled NT has decided to do something RIGHT instead of doing something QUICK.

Thanks to everyone at NT, especially Chilton's hard work and humor in the face of mounting criticism.

Scott
On the other hand, "Antz" is better. :)

Weepul
01-15-2007, 06:22 PM
It might be slightly irresponsible to call it 'beta' when it contains known bugs.
Er... While I get the sense that you're fighting against this trend, full releases of LW have contained what I'm pretty sure were known bugs, even serious ones (ie. unstable layers window in Modeler). Just a little whiff of irony there...

But...it would let us get our hands on the beta sooner... :D

C'mon Chilton, I'm eagerly awaiting re-investigating the process of making plugins. :) Is the SDK at least ready?


In the past, the Mac version was only available in the form of Maya Complete, and they spent a lot of time bringing the Unlimited version to OSX; and since then they've pretty much maintained feature parity across their supported platforms.
I've never used Maya, but I'm curious - how does Mental Ray for OS X (I assume there is one) running native on a PPC G5 compare to Mental Ray on Windows in terms of shader availability and speed?


welcome to the Harlan thread! j/k
:lol:

ingo
01-16-2007, 02:38 AM
BTW, how long is that hobbiest software C4D available as UB, seems to be ages ago when they released it ?!

Sorry if i hijacked your thread harlan ;)

mike_stening
01-16-2007, 04:27 AM
not that bothered about Maya to be honest, had a play with the learnign ed when it first came out a while back and it just didn't feel right, but then i felt the same way about C4D. though it is nice to hear it has UB speed benifits.

bring on the LW UB.

Chilton being sick is no excuse, you have plenty of time to be sick once the UB is released and not before :dance:


better open GL sounds good, looking forward to any rendering speed increases and hopefully some good multi proc support across the whole system.

ah just passing the time, better than just passing wind:thumbsup:

jeremyhardin
01-16-2007, 05:06 AM
Harlan,

Is the UB version of Maya different than their other platforms' versions, or do you know? Any Mac specific technologies?

-Chilton

Chilton...sort of, yes. This was around before the UB, but it seems to be different on the mac from other platforms (and thus applicable). You can use applescript. A quote:

Calling MEL from AppleScript and vice-versa

You can pass MEL commands to Maya in an Open Scripting Architecture language (usually AppleScript) by telling Maya to execute a string. For example:

// This is AppleScript code
tell application "Maya"
execute "sphere;"
end tell

The execute verb returns the MEL result.

You can call AppleScript from MEL indirectly using the Mac OS osascript command.

// This is MEL code
system("osascript \"tell application finder to activate\"");

This method of calling AppleScript through the command line through MEL’s system command can be tricky, because each level has its own special characters and quoting rules. Use the osascript command’s -i (include) flag to get the script from a file instead of the command line.

Read the osascript manual page (man osascript) or search Apple’s Knowledge Base for more information on using the osascript command.

Also, search Apple’s Knowledge Base for the latest information regarding AppleScripts support of HFS (:) and POSIX (/) path separators.

Phil
01-16-2007, 06:04 AM
I've never used Maya, but I'm curious - how does Mental Ray for OS X (I assume there is one) running native on a PPC G5 compare to Mental Ray on Windows in terms of shader availability and speed?


:lol:

It's not the same, true, but Cinebench runs faster with the UB version under OSX than the Win32 version. Both on my MacBook Pro with the WinXP install running almost nothing (not even a virus checker - Boot Camp only exists here to run Win32 LW on the machine, along with the odd session of Doom 3). The OSX install is a little more 'lived in', so any performance deficit should be on the Mac side.

It's not a huge difference, but it is apparent. Then again, I doubt that Cinebench is using the multithreaded OpenGL approach.

Kuzey
01-16-2007, 06:30 AM
You can use applescript.

Noooooooooooo...They stole my idea, applescript and command line/shellscripts :hey: :hey:

Here's to Lw's implementation being better, smoother and super cool :thumbsup:

Kuzey

brunopeixoto
01-16-2007, 07:44 AM
For the right to be sick!!!!! Any time, anywhere.

I love LW!

Some time I ear that we love people (and presume, all other things) by their deficiency, not quality.

mike_stening
01-16-2007, 07:46 AM
guess the sarcasm was missed then :foreheads

John the Geek
01-16-2007, 07:50 AM
guess the sarcasm was missed then :foreheads

Is that sarcastic sarcasm inspired by his follow-up sarcasm from your initial sarcasm I read?

Or have we looped around so far that we can't tell any longer?

mike_stening
01-16-2007, 08:12 AM
are you being sarcastic john?:neener:
it's the lowest form of wit don't you know

TomT
01-16-2007, 09:23 AM
Mmmmph . . . . um . . . wha . . . are we there yet?

(I forget who posted about competitors having useless UB versions, at least one competitor's UB version has successful produced 5 TV spots in the past few months on our Intel stations . . . The only thing that is close to "useless" on our Intel workstations is LW 9 . . . good for Autodesk to finally get their production UB system out the door . . .)

*Goes back to sleep waiting for the "beta" of a Universal Binary LW . . .*

*feh*

John the Geek
01-16-2007, 09:39 AM
If there's any consolation in that though, it's that Jay, Chilton and the gang are painfully aware of just how useless it is for us and they are working hard to win us back with a phenomenal UB release that just powders the rear of it's competitors UB efforts. (Or at least that's what we're lead to believe.)

Speaking of useless Mac software, I recently purchased a comic illustration package that just reeks of bad Mac port... and, at that, the UB has only been promised in the next paid version. (they pulled an Adobe, but with lower-quality software.) It's so bad that I downloaded Wacom's Cocoa-Complex sample app and am considering learning to write code myself just to build my own illustration app for comic line-art. But enough of that... :offtopic:

Anyway, I hope that 9.2UB lives up to it's hype. Cause I'm really not digging this Rosetta thing.

=)

TomT
01-16-2007, 11:36 AM
If there's any consolation in that though, it's that Jay, Chilton and the gang are painfully aware of just how useless it is for us and they are working hard to win us back with a phenomenal UB release that just powders the rear of it's competitors UB efforts. (Or at least that's what we're lead to believe.)



Not working hard to win me over . . . or the agency I work for. Years of broken promises can't be made up for with fresh promises . . .

eblu
01-16-2007, 11:39 AM
john (the geek),
comic line art is done in photoshop.
learn to love the path tool my friend. its what the pros use.

Chilton
01-16-2007, 11:41 AM
Not working hard to win me over . . . or the agency I work for. Years of broken promises can't be made up for with fresh promises . . .

Believe me, I know 8/

-Chilton

John the Geek
01-16-2007, 11:50 AM
john (the geek),
comic line art is done in photoshop.
learn to love the path tool my friend. its what the pros use.

Two words kill it... Nondestructive Rotation.

I need to rotate while I draw, and not rasterize every time I tweak the angle.

I color in PS... love that part...

=)

eblu
01-16-2007, 12:05 PM
john, that sounds like you need to do more thumbnails BEFORE you go to ink. seriously. the design should be straightened out before you are up to final work. Otherwise you'll never get anything done.

John the Geek
01-16-2007, 12:13 PM
john, that sounds like you need to do more thumbnails BEFORE you go to ink. seriously. the design should be straightened out before you are up to final work. Otherwise you'll never get anything done.

Oh no, it's not a layout issue. My pencils are worked up pretty clean on average. I scan them in and then ink digitally. I use my Wacom to add pressure variation to the lines, instead of the path tool which leave a flat uniform feel to the lines. To draw an arc freehand - just as you would on paper - you need to position the paper properly. Not being able to rotate the page -40 deg can make or break a good arc.

Manga Studio does this, and it's very nice for freehand line-art in general.. but the lack of UB and piss-poor Mac port leave me less than impressed with the current release. Painter rotates nondestructively too... but the same general problems apply.

But anyway... back on topic. =)

dsol
01-16-2007, 12:17 PM
Two words kill it... Nondestructive Rotation.

I need to rotate while I draw, and not rasterize every time I tweak the angle.

I color in PS... love that part...

=)

Illustrator's pretty good for that, but stupidly it *STILL* doesn't support multipage documents.

After effects and Combustion, depite being video-oriented tools are both pretty good for creating dynamically adjustable vector-based art - with the added bonus of having nifty FX tools built in like particles and glows. I'm sure photoshop will make the leap to being vector-based and nondestructive... eventually :(

eblu
01-16-2007, 01:22 PM
um... like I said. the pros exclusively use Photoshop as the defacto tool for getting clean thick/thin lines. they use the path tool, and they simulate pressure in the stroke. they simply have a lot of experience with how the tool works.

nothing takes the place of: being efficient with your tools, or having a clear vision of your end product.

http://photos1.blogger.com/photoInclude/blogger/1250/2135/1600/page5.1.jpg

Chilton
01-16-2007, 01:35 PM
I saw this thing at MacWorld. I know it's old-school, but I never tried it myself. I kinda assumed it would suck.

http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2005/07/hitachi_maxell.html

It does not suck.

-Chilton

John the Geek
01-16-2007, 01:53 PM
um... like I said. the pros exclusively use Photoshop as the defacto tool for getting clean thick/thin lines. they use the path tool, and they simulate pressure in the stroke. they simply have a lot of experience with how the tool works.

nothing takes the place of: being efficient with your tools, or having a clear vision of your end product.

http://photos1.blogger.com/photoInclude/blogger/1250/2135/1600/page5.1.jpg

I find it insulting that you feel I'm neither efficient with tools or have clear vision simply because I prefer to rotate my paper while drawing circles. Neither of your insults are relevant given the issue I have tried to explain here. This technology is possible and exists... Painter does it, ArtRage does it, and while not very robust... Manga Studio does it too. I simply wish that Photoshop would also have this aility so I would not have to bounce between applications.

I don't care what "the pros" do, I care more about working more practical in the manner in which I personally work best.

I'm exiting this conversation.

:bangwall:

TomT
01-16-2007, 05:58 PM
Oh no, it's not a layout issue . . .To draw an arc freehand - just as you would on paper - you need to position the paper properly. Not being able to rotate the page -40 deg can make or break a good arc.


A friend of mine who does color work for Marvel uses a tablet PC for this. He has the same issue with PS and freehand work, but says a lot of his frustration went away when he had integrated display/tablet he can put in his lap or spin on the desk. (FWIW)

Speaking of which, have you seen this gadget? http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ModBook

Looks kindda cool, but I'm still holding out for a Cintiq. :)

John the Geek
01-16-2007, 06:04 PM
Speaking of which, have you seen this gadget? http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ModBook

Looks kindda cool, but I'm still holding out for a Cintiq. :)

It's about the same price as a Cintiq, but portable... It's on my want-list I already sent to my boss... His preliminary response was "sure, I'll get that." We'll see once they start shipping.

=)

Chilton
01-16-2007, 06:31 PM
I played with one of those ModBooks while at MacWorld. Didn't have a lot of time to play with it, but it definitely piqued my interest.

For the record, I'm a Tablet Mac guy. Had Apple released a Tablet Mac at MacWorld, I would have one now.

Sure, there would probably be a few Apple security guards looking for me, but I'd have my Tablet Mac!

-Chilton