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Johnny
12-28-2006, 07:32 PM
I am sorry if folks have dealt with this thread a million times, but the Search function here pulled up nuttin' and really hasn't been working very well for me..

I know I've seen posts by people wanting to know how large they need to make their maps, and that's my question, too.

If you'd rather just point me to a discussion link, that'd be great!

thanks for any help or info!

J

mdharman
12-28-2006, 07:54 PM
Many game engines only accept maps that are a multiple of 8 bits (256). Because of this, you will see image maps that are 512 pixels by 512 pixels and 1024 x 1024. If you are going to standard NTSC video, your screen is 720 pixels wide. If you had a 512 pixel or smaller image shot full screen, you might see some stretching.

Lightwolf
12-29-2006, 03:26 AM
You might find some valuable information here:
http://www.lightwiki.com/wiki/mediawiki-1.4.4/index.php?title=Optimised_image_use

Basically, it depends on a lot of factors... final output, how large the image itself will be visible on the final render etc.

Cheers,
Mike

zardoz
12-29-2006, 04:11 AM
Leigh Van Der Byl as a great article exactly about this.
Here is a link to her webpage: http://www.onona3d.com/index.html
and for the article: http://www.onona3d.com/pdf/size_does_count.pdf

John the Geek
12-29-2006, 10:48 AM
So if I wanted to take the entire planet Earth image map at NASA resolution (86400 x 43200 px) and wrap it around a sphere and fly a camera around it I would fail miserably?

Cause I tried and it failed miserably.

=)

Lightwolf
12-29-2006, 10:54 AM
So if I wanted to take the entire planet Earth image map at NASA resolution (86400 x 43200 px) and wrap it around a sphere and fly a camera around it I would fail miserably?

It would. You're talking roughly 10GB of memory needed to store the image in RAM.


Cause I tried and it failed miserably.
=)
Well, that's why I wrote infiniMap (if you excuse the plug, see my sig for a link) ;)

Cheers,
Mike

John the Geek
12-29-2006, 11:05 AM
It would. You're talking roughly 10GB of memory needed to store the image in RAM.

Hehe, yeah, the uncompressed version saved as a 10.1GB file on my desktop. Photoshop took forever to write the file. The JPG saved as 3.8GB, but I just learnt in this thread today that it's used uncompressed in memory so it doesn't do me much good.

So I have 6GB in my Mac Pro, and 3GB of that can be allocated to Lightwave by the OS, can I apply the image at 3GB? Or am I then starving all of LW's other functions? I'd like to be able to fly in pretty close to view river structures for an Aquatic Ecology class.



Well, that's why I wrote infiniMap (if you excuse the plug, see my sig for a link) ;)

I'm intrigued. I'll have to take a look.

EDIT: Once I saw the words "Blue Marble" in your Node Editor I realized you have done exactly what I'm now attempting to do. That is pretty freakin sweet.

=)

Lightwolf
12-29-2006, 11:35 AM
Hi John,

Hehe, yeah, the uncompressed version saved as a 10.1GB file on my desktop. Photoshop took forever to write the file. The JPG saved as 3.8GB, but I just learnt in this thread today that it's used uncompressed in memory so it doesn't do me much good.

Yup. And LW will use another 50% of the needed Ram for the Mip-Maps (if they are active).


So I have 6GB in my Mac Pro, and 3GB of that can be allocated to Lightwave by the OS, can I apply the image at 3GB? Or am I then starving all of LW's other functions? I'd like to be able to fly in pretty close to view river structures for an Aquatic Ecology class.

Without mip-maps I'd say 2GB for the image... LW will need more memory (for geometry, as well as for the frame buffer into which it renders the final image). However, LW is known to be quite flakey with images above a couple 100MB (at least last time I checked).
I'd say the best way for you to approach the problem (without infiniMap) would be to scale down the image for the globe, and then cut out higher detailed parts out of the large image in PS. If you note down the coordinates of the cut image you should be able to place them.
Then render different scenes using different image textures. A pain to set-up though.
There are a few other possibilities as well (for example involving front projection mapping).


I'm intrigued. I'll have to take a look.

EDIT: Once I saw the words "Blue Marble" in your Node Editor I realized you have done exactly what I'm now attempting to do. That is pretty freakin sweet.

Lol... thanks. Our record is rendering a 2TB image texture on a 512MB Ram machine ;)
Unfortunately there is no OSX version at the moment, there are still issues with one of the SDKs we're using. The LW switch to the UB should make things a lot easier (not due to the intel processors, but due to the compiler).

Cheers,
Mike

John the Geek
12-29-2006, 11:44 AM
Lol... thanks. Our record is rendering a 2TB image texture on a 512MB Ram machine ;)
Unfortunately there is no OSX version at the moment, there are still issues with one of the SDKs we're using. The LW switch to the UB should make things a lot easier (not due to the intel processors, but due to the compiler).


Awesome. I may try and play with your demo in Win64 for the time being on my Mac Pro. I only got as far as installing the OS and checking to see if all of my RAM was there.

Lightwolf
12-29-2006, 11:46 AM
Awesome. I may try and play with your demo in Win64 for the time being on my Mac Pro. I only got as far as installing the OS and checking to see if all of my RAM was there.
Win64 on a Mac? Wow, that goes a bit beyond Bootcamp (I assume you'll be missing some hardware specific drivers, i.e. webcam, bluetooth).

Yes, please do so. By the way... it is more of a feature crippled version than a demo. You can still use it for planar mapping as a shader (hey, some of the other stuff was hard work ;) ).

Cheers,
Mike

avkills
12-29-2006, 11:55 AM
John,

The biggest image I have been able to load into LW (Mac) is a 21600x10800 grayscale targa image. Check out my Hi-res Earth WIP thread. I also have a finished thread on the hi-res earth.

Infini-Map is something I may look at; but I can't remember if there is a Mac version or not.

-mark

avkills
12-29-2006, 12:05 PM
Mike,

Glad to see you are working on a Mac version (should have read everything). Anyway is it going to be UB?

-mark

Lightwolf
12-29-2006, 12:13 PM
Glad to see you are working on a Mac version (should have read everything). Anyway is it going to be UB?

Probably UB first, yes. The problem is the underlying image compression SDK, which is huge and has problems with CodeWarrior. XCode should solve a lot of those issues, debugging the UB will also be a lot easier than debugging the current CW based version of LW.

The OSX version of exrTrader was in a way a test bed to the infiniMap port.

Cheers,
Mike

Johnny
12-29-2006, 06:45 PM
wow...with the answers and the links and the other related issues, this turned into one very interesting thread!

thank you!


J

John the Geek
01-01-2007, 07:02 PM
John,

The biggest image I have been able to load into LW (Mac) is a 21600x10800 grayscale targa image. Check out my Hi-res Earth WIP thread. I also have a finished thread on the hi-res earth.

I've successfully loaded a 21600x10800 PNG Image Map onto a globe and I'm rendering a quick flyby as I type this. Ironically, the image loads on my Intel Mac in Mac OS X (with Rosetta) and refuses to load in Windows XP (32bit) on the same exact machine. (gives me a grey sphere) I even tried to re-apply the image, but it keeps failing.

I can't wait for the UB. :D

Lightwolf
01-01-2007, 07:08 PM
I've successfully loaded a 21600x10800 PNG Image Map onto a globe and I'm rendering a quick flyby as I type this.
That should eat up roughly 1GB of Ram, including MipMaps. Pretty cool, LW used to bog out with images that size when 6.0 came out (5.6 was a lot more forgiving).

It may be that XP needs the /3GB switch. How much Ram do you have?

Cheers,
Mike

John the Geek
01-01-2007, 07:22 PM
Check out my Hi-res Earth WIP thread. I also have a finished thread on the hi-res earth.

Just dug up both. Fantastic job. Now you just need a tutorial on it so beginners like me can follow your lead.

I'll post my render once it finishes tomorrow. It's just the NASA topography/bathymetry map on a sphere. The bump failed, but I kinda expected that I was already pushing my luck. I played with the camera a bit and the detail at 21600x10800 is pretty nice. It's not the 86400x43200 I wanted, but it may be enough for what the instructor asked for.

=)

John the Geek
01-01-2007, 07:39 PM
It may be that XP needs the /3GB switch. How much Ram do you have?


The Pro has 6GB installed, but LW was set up on my Win32 drive, so Windows was capped at 2GB at the time. Although, my MacBook Pro with only 2GB of RAM also applies the image fine in Mac OS X... So you may be right about the >= 3GB thing in Windows XP.

Your plug-in looks awesome. But I don't think my boss is going to buckle for a $350 plugin to software we only paid $199 for. Do you have an EDU discount?

=)

avkills
01-01-2007, 07:44 PM
I can verify that LW on the Mac can and will use 4GB of RAM; if you have it, which I do. :D

The biggest issue is that you need way more than 1 super large texture map in order to realistically render a earth object. There is a 95% chance I will get InfiniMap once it gets ported over.

-mark

John the Geek
01-01-2007, 07:53 PM
I can verify that LW on the Mac can and will use 4GB of RAM; if you have it, which I do. :D

I though individual apps were still capped at 3GB each in Tiger? Or is that an "old code" limit that newer XCode does away with? I know that the new Photoshop UB only sees 3GB on my 6GB system.

Still, 4GB is nice.

avkills
01-01-2007, 09:23 PM
Maybe it is capped at 3. All I know is I had 3.5GB total RAM and was getting memory errors in LW, went to 5GB and the errors went away. ??

-mark

starbase1
01-02-2007, 02:32 AM
Hi John,
The other thing to note is that the image format matters a LOT. If you want to use big image maps you can get away with much bigger ones if you can change it into an 8 bit PNG. I did this for my low earth orbit images, and you can get away with quite a lot.

The system was also a LOT more responsive than with smaller JPG maps.

Another thing worth remembering is that you will never see the full detail over the whole globe. So for my stuff, I just modeled a quadrant of the northern hemisphere, and stuck the camera low over the Mediterranian sea. Even on my older 1 Gb memory machine, I was able to use 8000x8000 pixel maps - equivalent to 32000x18000 full earth.

If you do a search here on "Earth" you will find a lot of different successful approaches!

(Normal maps are GREAT for this stuff too!)

Nick

toby
01-02-2007, 03:38 AM
Your plug-in looks awesome. But I don't think my boss is going to buckle for a $350 plugin to software we only paid $199 for.
When I used to fix motorcycles we'd get customers that would find a 'cheap' old, beat-up bike and drag it in for us to get running. We'd tell him "needs new carburetors because it sat so long, a new battery, new tires and inner tubes because the rubber's all dried and cracked, the brakes are seized and there's oil leaking onto them from the forks, so even if the engine is perfect, it'll be about $500.00." To which the customer would reply
"But I only paid 50 bucks for it!"

:D

:screwy:

Lightwolf
01-02-2007, 04:33 AM
Do you have an EDU discount?

We do, but only to institutions (i.e. schools). You can contact me off board: michael.wolf(at)infinimap(dot)com.

Cheers,
Mike