View Full Version : Kray or Fprime ?

12-22-2006, 09:04 AM
Hi all,

At the moment I'm testing the demo version of kraytracing 1.612 and fprime.
I think buy one of them in the future but I have I question for the comunity.

Here is the two galleries of two engines renders.

Kraytracing http://www.kraytracing.com/index.php?subpage=3
Fprime http://www.worley.com/fprime.html

What is the better render engine ?

12-22-2006, 09:49 AM
Fprime is your get out of jail free card (well nearly) when it comes to things like glass or anything else with a lot of ray recursion that brings Lightwave to its knees, it's also real time (ish) which makes it the no brainer choice. Doesn’t mean Kray’s no good, just means you buy Fprime first

Captain Obvious
12-22-2006, 09:37 PM
Buy FPrime first, then Kray if you need faster GI. FPrime is nice because it's more compatible with Lightwave (renders HyperVoxels, motion blur, etc) and it's a bloody amazing previewer. Setting up lighting and texturing without FPrime is annoying.

I'd only recomend buying Kray first if you rely on global illumination.

12-22-2006, 11:28 PM
Kray 1.7 is really neat and is a huge jump in power from previous releases.

That being said, I can't say I've had a single day with Lightwave where I didn't use F-Prime since its release.

An Absolute must.

Kray has its advantages for great renders. It is a nice GI solver and becomes a huge GI/radiosity advantage for renders where the lighting or objects do not change, say for instance a walk through of a archviz scene. 1.7 is fast enough that I am even using it for full animations (lights,objects moving).

Yet, in the end I would say F-Prime is such a powerful tool for extending Lightwave workflow that I would make it my first choice.

12-23-2006, 11:19 PM
Yeah, I can remember when I first installed FPrime and fired it up. I laughed myself silly!! You will too, its just darn freakin amazing!!


12-24-2006, 02:58 AM
dear intuition

your thoughts on this subject are very important for me. You recently purchased KRAY and you are wellknown Fprime user...

I was relying on LWs renderer for my animations for sometime. Clients want me to have VRAY like animations so i have to push forward my renderer.

My humble question is, For Animation POV (arch Viz animation) which one is really or must be the first choice_?

I am not A still renderer. I dont get Still frame arch viz jobs. I have seen couple of Fprime animations (BG radiosity) and they were extremely noisy even in extreme quality settings. And i know that fella tried everything with every possible thread here. Fprime is relatively Noisy renderer from my POV. Please do not link me that Spinquad thread because that fella made an awesome Photoshop work over still images, which is not my area and i dont like Photoshop adjusting or neatimaging for every god**** frame.

Yes there is plugin callled NEATVIDEO or Algolith's NoiseRemover plugins but i can instantly distinguish an Fprime image - neatimaged from a mile away. Because it has that Glowish look.

So i hope our Krayians and Fprimers can enlight me on this subject.

And dear KC i hope you would show us some animation tests with both renderer as well. Your unbiased tests will be literally leading my humble company's to its choice of renderer.


Captain Obvious
12-24-2006, 03:32 AM
Kray is better for GI-heavy animation work.

12-24-2006, 03:39 AM
Hi all,

At the moment I'm testing the demo version of kraytracing 1.612 and fprime.

Is there a demo of Fprime available? I couldn't find one on Worley's site - I wouldn't mind trying it as I want to see just how good this thing is before I shell out $400 (up to now I was hoping it would be incorporated into future versions of LW but as it's not in LW9.....)

12-24-2006, 06:22 AM
no demo version, just the demo videos for fprime...

12-24-2006, 01:01 PM
I don't like to work without fprime, but there are things you can't do without Kray. Like said before, if you need a nice GI-animation Kray is your best bet. You still need nice surfaces for your scene though, and surfacing and lightning is something I really don't want to tackle without Fprime anymore.

Fprime is also nice as you can leave it to render and show your client that render very soon as a preview - if client approves just let it render more passes until the noise is gone and you have your final image. First time when I used it I immediately thought that this is the way this should be done. And I still think so... ;)

I think these two compliment each other pretty well. If I would be you, I would first buy fprime and then, if needed, Kray.

12-27-2006, 05:39 PM
Hey Tyrot,
Sorry I didn't see your post till today.

I would say that choosing between the latest Kray and F-Prime is a hard one.

First off is the subject of a possible F-Prime-3 coming in january-Febuary 07.

No one knows much about it for sure but a purchase now may not guarantee a free upgrade.

F-Prime is a great all around preview tool and for most of my work gets utilized on a daily basis.

One thing to point out in this Kray1.7 vs F-Prime debate is that since you do archviz Kray has a one up on f-prime that may help you. Kray has the ability to do a full GI solution for the first frame of the animation. Then as long as only the camera moves (no objects or lights moving) Kray will leave the GI solution in place for the rest of the frames in the animation. Meanaing it wont calculate the full GI for the whole scene everyframe. It will cache the GI info after the first frame and then render the rest of the frames alot faster since it does not need to recalculate the lighting for every frame.

This is a distinct advantage of Kray over F-Prime in the archViz type of work.

Lightwave's native renderer can do this if you use interpolated radiosity but Kray seems to be a superior GI solution. I have been out for Xmas but am back home and will try to do a few tests.

I can tell you that F-Prime is a very powerful all around tool though and is indispensable in my Lightwave workflow. I try to remember the 9 years of Lightwave I did before it exists and am suprised I had great images before it.

Kray 1.7 will not always be fast depending on the complexity of the scene but you can use the low presets to get an estimate of what the scene will look like and then move the settings up from there till you are happy with quality/speed. Silver and Jure are also really fast to help out with any problems you may have. Jure has a nice tutorial for using the scene calculation tools to determine how much detail is necessary.

F-Prime will give you an instant view of most scenes but when you need a noise free version of highly detailed work it can get so it never seems to solve the noise fully. I have used a few noise reduction After effects tools to final my output as you have mentioned. In most cases it can solve what you need.

The main drawback to both Kray and F-Prime at the moment is that there is no supported Network rendering solution for either. Sometimes I will just copy a scene from one computer to all of my render node computers and then set it so that the 1st one renders frames 1-10, 2nd frames 11-20, 3rd one frames 21-20, etc, etc...

This works for f-prime and Kray even though it is a bit redundant. Kray is currently being beta tested with Butterfly netrender as a network option and no one knows if a network render is on the list for F-Prime 3.

Personally, if I was doing mainly archviz, I may decide on Kray 1.7 but I can't imagine a world without f-prime open alot of the time showing me the render in realtime.

I'd say wait until the end of January and if F-Prime 3 hasn't materialized then go for Kray. I'll try to post a couple of Kray/f-prime renders in this thread soon. :thumbsup:

12-27-2006, 06:26 PM
I can't add anything else but to say "ditto" to Intuitions input below. KRay with a Network rendering solution would be incredibly hard to pass up. Beautiful, fast GI - tough to beat that.

But day to day...FPrime is still indespensible - because hours saved in lighting and texturing setup.

12-27-2006, 07:49 PM
dear intution

thanks alot mate. I will be waiting for your screenshots and rendertimes. In january i will get two renderers as a birthday gift to myself :)

Best January is coming!

12-27-2006, 08:09 PM
dear intution

i was adding more words but then 5 min limit...anyways..

you said KRAY does calculated first frame longer and GI gets saved and then other frames will be easier to calculate..That is really great but i have another question...

What really happens when you open a really crazy scene for KRAY? I live in a very FAR CRY'ish place. And lots of 3d trees lots of moving characters and myriads of buildings are needed for almost every project. At least over 1 million for a main building 2 million for aquapark and garden details and lots of 3d trees (very low polies but hundreds of them) and MANY many many MDD characters...

With this type of scenes i wonder what kray does?

When i see Radiosity threads almost everyone is using Simple Spheres and a barren room which is totally not realistic. I really do wonder what can be possible or what is the limits of KRAY ..

I will invest both application but the Time is the only value i have to be careful with. In a tight schedule and constant client pressure i simply cannot even try a new plugin i purchase...So that s why i sincerely thank you for you time writing these posts and lightwaving us :)