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View Full Version : Love It Hate It A Tale Of Version 9



kevinone
12-13-2006, 10:46 PM
I have made some great looking models with version Lightwave 9; but why does it leave so much trash behind (2point poly's, 1point poly's and edges I don't know know where they came from). I have to whatch it closer than a 2 year old. I think it has to do with smoothshift and bevel. I have used XSI, and Maya, never had to be a trash collector befor. The problem is I hate modeling in the other programs and for some reason love the Light!

P.S Have learned a lot from the
reading the posts! Thanks...

js33
12-13-2006, 11:39 PM
I always merge points and run the command to unify polys. I have done this since verison 4 so it just seemed like something you had to do.

meshpig
12-14-2006, 12:30 AM
I hear this same thing all the time.

It's a nonsensical complaint because if you follow the logic of what you are doing you don't end up with so much unwanted geometry.

For example: every time you merge points, just check what is going to go missing in the process.

... You know the proverb...!

:yoda:

M

petrockproducti
12-14-2006, 12:37 AM
Actually, pressing "w" is an amazing tool. You can clean up an object in seconds. It gives you the ability to select just about any type of geometry, grouped object, etc you would ever need. I merge polygons and points all the time. I've just gotten used to it.

meshpig
12-14-2006, 12:43 AM
Missed the last bit...

Yeah, modeling in Maya is a bit like cookin' in a Cafe. Whereas LW is a Restaurant with lots of Stainless Steel!!


M

meshpig
12-14-2006, 02:03 AM
petrockproducti

... have you ever seen the Akira Kurosawa film Kagemusha? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagemusha

The "drawn sword", great film!


The art is to know beforehand!

M

SplineGod
12-14-2006, 06:33 AM
Usually it comes from smooth shifting but not shifting out the polys and then merging or merging polys within a range. The same can happen with bevel, extrudes, extender etc

habaņero
12-14-2006, 05:42 PM
The cleanup tool in LWCad needs to be mentioned -- it s a killer for those double polys and similar.

Bog
12-15-2006, 04:45 AM
Don't forget to "Merge Points" after doing Boolean operations, either.

lardbros
12-21-2006, 10:55 AM
After a while you get used to the way LW works... i like the way i seem to know when i've made duplicate polys or there are some extra points. Try using 3dMAX... here's an example i use all the time to demonstrate how i love LW and get slightly narked with MAX:


If you make a box in LW, use the stretch tool to squash it down to a completely flat double-sided plane. Delete all the faces apart from the top OR the bottom one. Now you simply have a plane!! Cool eh??

If you do this in MAX, for some reason it doesn't "understand" that you simply want a plane. Yes MAX will do this in a similar way to LW, but when it comes later down the line of modelling with this plane, even after collapsing the mesh etc, you will get a corrupt model that refuses to save/open/anything. This isn't good for beginners, isn't good for people who occasionally make mistakes, and isn't good for modelling in general to be honest. It just isn't freeform enough. LW is a god send when it comes to making one piece of geometry into something else!!!!

iconoclasty
12-21-2006, 11:47 AM
Good example lardbros. It's like Max overthinks itself to death.

zardoz
12-21-2006, 12:14 PM
leaving 1 point poly or 2 point polys behind can be used against you or not...it depends.

if you don't want it watch the statistics...after using those tools for some time you'll know that you have some 1 or 2 point polys behind.

In some cases it's necessary to create those polys.

Virtual Mind
12-21-2006, 04:28 PM
After a while you get used to the way LW works... i like the way i seem to know when i've made duplicate polys or there are some extra points. Try using 3dMAX... here's an example i use all the time to demonstrate how i love LW and get slightly narked with MAX:


If you make a box in LW, use the stretch tool to squash it down to a completely flat double-sided plane. Delete all the faces apart from the top OR the bottom one. Now you simply have a plane!! Cool eh??

If you do this in MAX, for some reason it doesn't "understand" that you simply want a plane. Yes MAX will do this in a similar way to LW, but when it comes later down the line of modelling with this plane, even after collapsing the mesh etc, you will get a corrupt model that refuses to save/open/anything. This isn't good for beginners, isn't good for people who occasionally make mistakes, and isn't good for modelling in general to be honest. It just isn't freeform enough. LW is a god send when it comes to making one piece of geometry into something else!!!!

But of course you could simply use the "plane" button, could you not?

kevinone
12-21-2006, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the help guys. I am learning that 99% of my problems are not Newteks but me being knew to the program, that w key is very nice. I just can't believe how easy it is to learn Lightwave: quality, price can't beat it. Had some crashes at first, traced down to virus software. The only thing right know is rendering glass objects is such a slow ordeal, I gave up rendering a bottle after an hour. P.S Spline God enjoyed your free videos, will order from you soon! Thanks......

SplineGod
12-21-2006, 10:50 PM
Thanks!
Raytracing thru multiple glass surfaces will take awhile. :)

habaņero
12-22-2006, 02:55 AM
If you join the open beta there is a very good thread on glass vs rendertime.

lardbros
12-22-2006, 06:18 AM
But of course you could simply use the "plane" button, could you not?

Absolutely... but i was using it as a VERY simple example as how MAX can freak out if you do things with geometry that Lightwave doesn't even think twice about.

Anyway, off topic... back to the thread...:santa:

jin choung
12-24-2006, 12:15 AM
i would say that lw lets you model at a "lower level" than max or maya where it is more abstracted and "higher level". kind of like assembly vs. c++....

actually, i would wager that there are many many many many many instances where you actually ARE leaving behind a lot of junk in maya or max but you SIMPLY CANNOT KNOW ABOUT IT!

whereas in lw, you can hit "w" and manually clean it all out.

i've seen lots of models from colleagues where if i dug into the model even inside of maya, i find a lot of junk like doubled up polys and senselessly unwelded edges.

anyhoo, i believe that it is a distinct advantage in modeling to work as low level as we do in lw.

jin

SplineGod
12-24-2006, 03:50 AM
I agree. Ive seen the same thing in terms of models from Maya created by seasoned professionals containing lots of junk.

starbase1
12-24-2006, 05:00 AM
Well... I hear what you guys are saying, and I know that most of you are better modelers than me... But...

But I often have huge problems with this sort of thing - modeler becomes VERY unstable when it gets geometry it does not like. I find it gets particularly wobbly when importing OBJ files. You often don't get time to fix and save before it crashes and burns.

It's not good enough, and it needs fixing. I'm fed up with having to use 3rd party applications for stuff that should be working in native Lightwave.

Nick

Stooch
12-25-2006, 08:00 AM
The real question is, why in the **** does lw force this stupid cleaning routine on artists? do we really need to merge points every time? or clear 2 point polys? Id rather just set an option for LW to do that on its own, unless for some reason i want the trash. heh, just another reason why i switched to modo and maya.

avkills
12-25-2006, 08:41 AM
Sometimes you need duplicate points so you do not have smoothing errors, so no, I think the artist should have to manually clean their own stuff.

-mark

jin choung
12-25-2006, 02:26 PM
stooch,

if free floating verts and 2 point polys had no purpose whatsoever, i would agree with you.

BUT

they are used in many instances for different effects. and it would be tremendously frustrating if lw constantly erased something you wanted to do.

having said that, i do understand what you're saying and certain operations like booleans (especially) should indeed do a better job cleaning up after itself. anyhoo, you should try using the various cleanup plugins out there.... they might provide what you're looking for.

most of us older school lwers are so used to the process of keeping an eye out for junk that it's second nature and we don't really think to question it.

finally, as i said, it is very very possible to create junk in other apps too. but it is FAR LESS APPARENT that you did! much harder to find out... so it may be easier to THINK that the geometry is clean even though it is not. in this regard, i think that it's great that lw gives you such open feedback.

jin

starbase1
12-25-2006, 03:23 PM
I understand problems with a fully automatic cleanup.Some control is required.

I do not understand why it crashes so often when importing OBJ and other geometry, (and has in my experience since v5.6). I don't understand why it doesn't give more help in spotting and fixing dodgy geometry.

Nick

Stooch
12-25-2006, 04:47 PM
Sometimes you need duplicate points so you do not have smoothing errors, so no, I think the artist should have to manually clean their own stuff.

-mark


did you have trouble understanding my original post?

"Id rather just set an option for LW to do that on its own, unless for some reason i want the trash."

Having used the program for 11 years i can think of maybe 5 instances where i wanted to keep it.