PDA

View Full Version : Notice to tutorial writers



prospector
11-23-2006, 03:11 PM
Have any of you done a DVD,CD,movie that has an indepth study of Expressions?

Starting from the very basics (here is the panel)

something like expressions for dummies

using the node based expression editor

I've seen some small tuts, but they assume that we know the basics of expressions, like sines,cosines and all those other hyroglyphic terms.

If someone has done it then where can I buy it?

If someone could do this, where can I and probably hundreds of others buy it??

In desperate need of learning expressions after 12 years with LW and never tried before.


HELP and get it out by tonight !!! :D :D

Silkrooster
11-23-2006, 06:04 PM
Yep I agree I would love to see some on expressions and now on relativity as well. I don't have enough knowledge of either to be dangerous. I should at least be to that point. lol.
Silk

DiedonD
11-24-2006, 04:03 AM
Ive been searching for Expressions for a year now. Theres nothing that could start you from scratch. There use to be this braniac site about expressions, but last I checked a year before, it too wasnt alright.:thumbsdow

I dont know weather there's a considerable market, but someone oughta make a dvd tutorial on expressions by now, or one should produce in future. Im too an interested client.

Eisenhower
11-24-2006, 09:13 AM
I guess you could probably pitch the idea to someone at kurv...

SplineGod
11-25-2006, 02:23 AM
Hey Prospector,
I know that various people are working on tutorials like that. ;)

DiedonD
11-25-2006, 02:33 AM
Hey Prospector,
I know that various people are working on tutorials like that. ;)

Any names or dates...?

prospector
11-25-2006, 02:39 AM
I know that various people are working on tutorials like that.

First one out that is catered to me....totally ignorant on expressions....gets my wallet :D

SplineGod
11-25-2006, 02:23 PM
There are videos in the works the will focus specifically on relatiivity, expressions and motion modifers. There are some videos that are already out that do cover some of that or show how to use expressions within certain contexts like rigging.
No exact names or dates that I can gve out. :)

Silkrooster
11-25-2006, 03:51 PM
ah darn.
Silk

SplineGod
11-25-2006, 03:58 PM
Speaking for myself, I am working on several. Its the others Im not a liberty to mention :)

Silkrooster
11-25-2006, 05:04 PM
the advantage of inside info. lol.
Silk

DiedonD
11-26-2006, 02:44 AM
Speaking for myself, I am working on several. Its the others Im not a liberty to mention :)

Alright...Looks like its going somewhere

When will it be released, will it assume little if not nothing about previous knowledge in Expressions, and how much will it cost?

SplineGod
11-26-2006, 01:12 PM
The material will start at a very basic level, assuming you know nothing and then work its way up to more complex things. There will be several small projects showing their use. I will cover both LW and Relativity expressions. I usually like to show the weaknesses as well as the strengths so you have a better idea of which way to go when using them. I think this is important.
Usually if the material is 3-4 hours I charge around $49.00 but usually sell it discounted for a couple of weeks after release.
Im also open to suggestions on what you guys would like to see covered. :)

Phil
11-26-2006, 01:44 PM
I'd certainly recommend focussing only on Relativity. I'm looking forward to the day when the awkward in-built expression system in LW is made a short-lived legacy support plugin.

Relativity should have been the expression system in LW from day 1. I'm surprised that NewTek haven't made the HTML documentation from Relativity 1.0 available, rather than the less accessible PDF docs.

I'd also strongly encourage folks to go through the content for Relativity. It's the easiest and quickest way to learn. The HTML docs had comments about what each scene was doing....I'm uncertain as to how this has been done in the NT docs, I must admit.

prospector
11-26-2006, 02:25 PM
What to cover? ......so so much.....

I would like to see the node expression editor in action rather than typing formulas in. Where I really get confused is where expression writers get the numbers.

Here is example someone and I worked out over a Skype session

1 - [Null.Bone (1).Rotation.H,Time] /200
this shrinks a bone in comparison to a rotating bone...so it's for a muscle

I asked where he got the 1- and how he knew it was /200, couldn't answer, just said it was what was suppose to go there....:question:

So how would an expression newbie know this??
Is there a chart somewhere?
Is it written in the LW docs?
Are they being pulled from thin air?

I dunno, I can find no refrences.

So it's those little niggly things that get confusing.

But if Relativity is easier then go for that, keeping in mind those little things.

And as most would be used in CA, (I would sumize), that would be the heaviest demonstraited.

prospector
11-26-2006, 02:30 PM
3-4 hours?
Is that enough time for people like me? :D :D

SplineGod
11-26-2006, 02:47 PM
An expressions video could get pretty huge depending on just how many things were to be covered and in what context. Rigging a complex machine and using expressions by itself could take a long time.
Rigging a character and demonstrating the use of expressions could take awhile as well. For example you mentioned muscle bones. Theres a lot of ways to control muscle bones that are easier then using expressions and require a lot less thought. In many instances expressions could take awhile to figure out and actually give less control. One of the problems with using expressions to drive a rig is that you lose manual control over those items unless you add in override controls. Some of these issues dont necessarily have anything directly to do with expressions but have to be covered in a context like rigging.

A video on expressions would need to cover the fundamentals very clearly.
Something like rigging it would have to be covered thoroughly in that context. My character rigging material does cover expressions. The newest one I did recently also covers relativity. That video is about 10 hrs long. Ill be doing more advanced rigging videos that show more specialized examples of using expressions to do things like procedural based animations :)

Ill probably cover that node based expression editor but IMO its terrible. You never hear anyone talking about it for a reason.

prospector
11-26-2006, 02:53 PM
You never hear anyone talking about it for a reason.
I thought it was because it's hardly even proclaimed it was there by Newtek.

You really have to look for it to find it. unlike the one on the bottom of the grapg editors, which to me is type the code in stuff.

10 hours? that sounds about right for an expression only DVD.

Phil
11-26-2006, 04:28 PM
What to cover? ......so so much.....

I would like to see the node expression editor in action rather than typing formulas in. Where I really get confused is where expression writers get the numbers.


Sitting and thinking, generally. Relativity has professors to help with many common (or rare) events.



Here is example someone and I worked out over a Skype session

1 - [Null.Bone (1).Rotation.H,Time] /200
this shrinks a bone in comparison to a rotating bone...so it's for a muscle

I asked where he got the 1- and how he knew it was /200, couldn't answer, just said it was what was suppose to go there....:question:


The 1 refers to the starting scale factor (i.e. the reference). It's an odd expression, as written, but what you are essentially after for a muscle is a scale based on the angle, with the full joint angle giving you the minimum scale and the maximum scale (1) being at full extension.

For an elbow, you have full extension at a joint angle of 0 degrees and the maximum bicep bulge at something like 130 degrees. You therefore want the subtraction bit to be near zero at 0 degrees and maximum at 130-ish degrees.

Simple maths tells you that 1-(degrees/130) would give you this. Your expression has this form.



So how would an expression newbie know this??
Is there a chart somewhere?
Is it written in the LW docs?
Are they being pulled from thin air?


An expression newbie would be advised to read the docs, revise their trig and maths and have a proper understanding of how things work when animating.

There is no generic chart, but there are references for all kinds of trig and general maths work.

The LW docs are probably not great. Relativity 1.0 had fantastic docs and the content will also help you out alot. The global motion access plugin for Relativity, etc. will help you dissect what is going on.

Expressions can be pulled from thin air, as you just saw. Relativity also helps you out quite majorly with the Expression Maker professor, available in any expression slot.



I dunno, I can find no refrences.

So it's those little niggly things that get confusing.

But if Relativity is easier then go for that, keeping in mind those little things.

And as most would be used in CA, (I would sumize), that would be the heaviest demonstraited.

Relativity is wonderful. Ignore the LW expression system....it's awful. Unless you want to drive expressions from LScript, in which case it is currently your only option.

prospector
11-26-2006, 06:58 PM
Ignore the LW expression system....it's awful. Unless you want to drive expressions from LScript, in which case it is currently your only option.

Which is probably why I never wanted to learn it. :)

Haven't needed it in all this time ( I ended up doing things manually), but more and more I see it coming at me like a freight train.....And I gotta get of the tracks. :D

SplineGod
11-26-2006, 07:39 PM
I tend to use something like cycler to drive muscle bones since the desired behavior can be hand keyed then controlled by another channel on another item. :)

DiedonD
11-27-2006, 02:23 AM
Heres how basic fundementals should look like for client like me. Look how much I dont know, for example:

Relativity and LW Expressions, are they both included in LW, or relativity is a seperate extra plugin that needs to be bought also?

Phil
11-27-2006, 05:30 AM
They are both included in LW 9.0. Relativity began life back when LW 5.5 was the current version of LW. NewTek developed their own expression system with LW 6.0 for some reason, rather than using Relativity.

You cannot obtain Relativity now except by having LW 9.0. The silver lining is that Relativity 2 had stalled in development due to various real life events that impacted its developer. I'm hoping that NewTek has sufficient resources to refine and extend the plugin.

SplineGod
11-27-2006, 10:53 AM
For a long time Relativity was the only way to do expressions in LW. When LW expressions showed up they were never as powerful as Relativity.
My understanding is that relativity is supposed to be integrated at some point.
It definately doesnt have many of the weaknesses LWs native expressions do.

gjjackson
11-27-2006, 01:02 PM
There is a great deal of content for relativity, which should answer many questions.

prospector
11-27-2006, 05:52 PM
where?
That's in kinda plain english.....

Phil
11-27-2006, 06:18 PM
The content scenes for Relativity are available in the download section of your profile on register.newtek.com. I uploaded some other bits and pieces at http://ldex.terica.net/personal/services/relativity2.html