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peteb
11-18-2006, 05:19 AM
use the following approach to improve Lightwave.

Open up the app and slowly go through every button asking these questions.

1: Does this do all it needs to do as well as it can?
2: Have we got any other older or newer buttons in the app that do a very similar function?
3: If number two applies can that tool have the two buttons made into one taking the best bits of both?
4: How can we present this new improved tool to the public in an easy to understand and user friendly way?

I feel if they had a thorough clear out in the app it would make 90% of their customers a lot happier.

Although I'm pleased with the progress that's being made to Lightwave I do feel it's all a bit random. Obviously sorting out the main core of Lightwave is the most important area. But from what I'm seeing now it looks like they're hopping all over the place trying to patch things up.

I know there's probably little point to this post as I'm probably stating the obvious. I'm truly hoping that Newtek have got a definite plan of how their going to get from A to B. I just really want to know what you guys think of how the 9x cycle is going as I personally am I little concerned.

Pete B

Maxx
11-18-2006, 05:37 AM
I think Jay and the dev team have everything well under control. It seems to me that UI considerations and tool consolidation would be one of the last things to be addressed - they've got to make sure that the core re-write is working and good, then they look at the eye candy aspect of things.

Just my 2 cents...

SP00
11-18-2006, 06:35 AM
I think UI is very important, it is less important for advance users, but for users that don't know the software, UI is the key to making them understand quick and easily. So if NT wants new users, I think it would be good to start changing the interface.

Maxx
11-18-2006, 06:38 AM
Believe me, I'm not saying it's not important. I'm just saying that I personally would rather the dev team concentrate on truly integrating CC Sub D's, edges, etc. before they make a context-sensitive Bevel tool, you know? I'm all for the context-sensitive bevel tool, but I'd rather - right now - be able to knife a CatmullClark SubD'd object without having to clear and re-apply all my edge weights.

peteb
11-18-2006, 08:14 AM
Sorry I don't think I worded my post very well. The UI tidy up would just be one of the benefits of going through each button. What I meant is that it would be a good way to look at every part and not just jump around all over the place.

I'm just worried that they're trying to fix lots of things that people are moaning about instead of looking at Lightwave with fresh eyes and taking each part step by step.

There are so many parts of Lightwave that work but just not as good as they could or seem to be in two different places. By going through every part step by step they could make sure that everything is the best it can be instead of all this patch work that seems to be going on. Of course this is totally my opinion and I hope I'm proved wrong.

Pete B

Matt
11-18-2006, 09:31 AM
I agree with peteb, what is needed - after they sort the core out, as this will allow them to build new tools quickly, is a good shake up, house cleanining if you will.

There are many tools that:

a) are redundant because other (better) tools do similar functions

b) tools that don't take advantage of edges

c) tools that need a lot of improvment to make them fully useful

*Pete*
11-18-2006, 10:10 AM
I think UI is very important, it is less important for advance users, but for users that don't know the software, UI is the key to making them understand quick and easily. So if NT wants new users, I think it would be good to start changing the interface.


Are there 3d-programs that are easier to understand/learn than LW??

im not saying that UI should not be changed/improved but to my understanding other apps such as Maya and Max have a much worse UI, and they are both harder to learn to use.

Lightwolf
11-18-2006, 10:16 AM
Are there 3d-programs that are easier to understand/learn than LW??
Do you really want to know? Yes, there are ;)
There is also a difference between understanding in learning. Other apps may be harder to learn but end up being easier to understand. (And yes, I've been using LW for almost 15 years now....)


im not saying that UI should not be changed/improved but to my understanding other apps such as Maya and Max have a much worse UI, and they are both harder to learn to use.
But what if they end up being more powerful and you end up being more flexible? Ease of learning isn't the only argument, otherwise we'd all be using Truespace ;)
Sometimes even just a command line can be the better interface...

Cheers,
Mike

P.S. Mind you, I agree on the fact that LW needs a logical makeover as far as the UI goes, Modeler has way to many seemingly duplicate tools (that require you to be in a certain mode to actually use them sometimes), Layout can be quite clumsy at times as well.

Maxx
11-18-2006, 10:23 AM
what is needed - after they sort the core out, as this will allow them to build new tools quickly
I don't think I worded mine quite right either. What Matt said - quoted above - is exactly what I was trying to say. (thanks matt :D )

richcz3
11-18-2006, 10:32 AM
(edit)
There are many tools that:

a) are redundant because other (better) tools do similar functions

b) tools that don't take advantage of edges

c) tools that need a lot of improvement to make them fully useful

I think there are allot of us that go back to v4 that would agree whole heartedly. New tools were introduced instead of building up/improving the original tool sets. On paper its not a bad idea to have multiple ways to deal with a problem, but in practice choosing the wrong tool can lead to prolonged modeling and multiple model revisions.

Captain Obvious
11-18-2006, 10:43 AM
If LW gets a major tool-consolidation and UI overhaul, it will go back to being my primary tool. I hate to bring it up as an example, but modo is really a good example of consolidation. The Bevel tool, for instance, works just as well on Edges, Verts and Polygons. It's the same basic tool, so hitting the B key works in all modes. Falloffs all work the same on all interactive tools. The Jitter tool works on everything, even on items! And so on and so forth.

In Lightwave, we have a whole bunch of bevel tools, all with small differences, and you can only map one of them to a certain key. This is highly inefficient. I want ONE bevel tool with lots of capabilities, not half a dozen bevel tools with marginal differences.

toonafish
11-18-2006, 10:53 AM
Sorry I don't think I worded my post very well. The UI tidy up would just be one of the benefits of going through each button. What I meant is that it would be a good way to look at every part and not just jump around all over the place.

I'm just worried that they're trying to fix lots of things that people are moaning about instead of looking at Lightwave with fresh eyes and taking each part step by step.

There are so many parts of Lightwave that work but just not as good as they could or seem to be in two different places. By going through every part step by step they could make sure that everything is the best it can be instead of all this patch work that seems to be going on. Of course this is totally my opinion and I hope I'm proved wrong.

Pete B

I think you're right, and I think that's because there no longer is a "vision" behind LW.

Endomorphs, weightmaps and hypervoxels they came up with in the good old days are still brilliant. But ever since the LW coding core left NT they are just floating around with not a clue of what to aim for I think.

Wonderpup
11-18-2006, 11:01 AM
I agree that a lot of the tools seem now to be almost historic curiosities, like legacy stuff thats been left in the ui.

It still bugs me every time I try to frame all objects in layout's perspective view, only to get a message telling me I can't- why not?

I'm sure all this stuff is on the list- but I guess it's a very long list.

Maxx
11-18-2006, 01:33 PM
toonafish, I think you're right about LW development in the time immediately following the split. But (call me a fanboy if you want) I'm impressed with the new dev team. I think 9 is - right now, as is - the most impressive update since 6.0. And the fact that 85% of the reengineered things in 9.0 worked for over 50% of the user base upon gold release is a step and a half above 6.0. I can't comment on 9.2, but even just 9.0 has renewed a lot of faith from me in the product, and Jay's open and candid description of the roadmap for 9.x cycle adds to that. We may have to wait a bit to get some of the things that other products have right now, but I think it'll be worth it.

I'm not saying that there aren't things I'd like to see in LW (I would kill for a native vector renderer and a bevel tool that work on whatever I have selected at the time), but what's been done and what's been talked about and the fact that NT have reappeared on the boards and Chuck and Chilton and Jay among many others have posted frank discussions and comments on user concerns is heartening.



Just hoping that NT proves me right in this optimism, as I'm usually a bit of a cynic by nature. :devil:

toonafish
11-18-2006, 03:09 PM
Hope you're right Maxx. I've given up on LW, and now that I've tasted the green grass of xsi I don't think I'' ever go back.....except to render in Fprime that is ;-)

Wonderpup
11-18-2006, 03:50 PM
But ever since the LW coding core left NT they are just floating around with not a clue of what to aim for I think.

I don't think this is totaly fair- the impression I have is that the new team do have a plan but there is a lot of 'housekeeping' stuff to get through first, which is getting in the way. The problem is, of course, that the other guys aren't going to stand still while NT catches up- they've got plans too.

peteb
11-18-2006, 04:43 PM
"The problem is, of course, that the other guys aren't going to stand still while NT catches up- they've got plans too"

Although this is true I don't think this should put Newtek off from trying to make Lightwave totally fresh again. Modo started from scratch but now it's getting a huge amount of users.

I'm not saying Newtek should scrap everything and start again as that would be crazy. But I do feel that a really logical way of making sure they have an app performing to it's best would be to go through every tool and look at ways to make it the best tool for that job using the latest tech avaiable.

Pete B

tyrot
11-18-2006, 06:14 PM
Modo started from scratch but now it's getting a huge amount of users.

Pete B

dear pete

that " from the scratch" probably explain the reasons of LW6-7.5 amazing updates. Probably "that scratch" was the new LW. But it didnt happen.

So i should say...with LW9, the writing from scratch, has just begun. But one more problem, there are millions of plugins, lots of 8.5 houses and many crucial business on the line.

So NT team managing the quite impossible task. Both "scracthing" and "updating" and "innovating"... I have never seen such a development story. And all the signs shows Lightwave's 9th cycle will be a true achivement in 3D History. And after this cycle, probably with glorius 10th version (may be with a cool name) things will return where it all started......into the light... :)

Best

jasonwestmas
11-18-2006, 06:34 PM
I think you're right, and I think that's because there no longer is a "vision" behind LW.

Endomorphs, weightmaps and hypervoxels they came up with in the good old days are still brilliant. But ever since the LW coding core left NT they are just floating around with not a clue of what to aim for I think.


I thought the next big "vision" that LW9 had to offer was Nodal. Is this not a big "improvement"? I think NT has a vision but I really don't understand it. For example: I'm surprised they don't have improved previewing for such a thing as Nodal and its new rendering capabilities. Kind of makes it more of a difficult situtation than an aid.

Stooch
11-18-2006, 07:31 PM
vision? nodal? those arent a vision, they have been around for a long time and it was actually a 3rd party developer taht got hired and integrated.

So why would consolidating tools require waiting for core updates??? its not like one needs the other, its just taking existing functionality and making it context sensitive or combine them = instant boost in productivity = happy users. I dont think anyone likes to buy upgrades where the benefits that were promised are unfinished or unseen.

car analogies anyone?

jasonwestmas
11-18-2006, 08:56 PM
Yes, it is strange that NT would choose to frustrate the user base by introducing new tools that don't work very smoothly or have extreme limitations or don't work quickly mainly because the new core isn't finished. Other than previewing texture maps, Catmul Clark is another amazing disappointment. This stuff is common place in other apps which is the main reason why I wonder where lightwave is going. It seems to have no strong suit, it's starting to feel like an app that does everything moderately well and that's not very competitive.

The strongest thing lightwave has going right now is probably the set of dynamics and hypervoxel plugins you can get, but that's alot more $ in most cases.

Decent UV tiff Displacements and tangent normal mapping haven't been in lightwave before and I was happy to see it. I'm not suggesting that this is innovative but it is a good base to start from other than getting the core finished.

Concering Nodal: Being able to mix pre-existing shaders in a much more versatile way is a pretty good improvement. Nodal as a whole is indeed more powerful but it is not innovative and it does not make getting your project done any faster as I have found out all too slowly.

As I have mentioned to others, I was really at ease with lightwave's design and what it was capable of before 9.0. In my case, all LW9.0 needed was a few industry standard features and then the core improvement to speed everything up. The camera stuff is neat but really I don't need it as much as other things that I've discussed before. It's like a bunch of eye candy tools that isn't integral to the success of a smaller project. It is obvious NT is thinking big with the newer rendering features but geeze, if I can't preview it and tweak it quickly, what's the point. If people are expecting me to use worley's tools to tweak and preview then I hope NT will make LW9 communicate with G2 and Fprime and make it happen soon.

tyrot
11-19-2006, 02:19 AM
vision? nodal? those arent a vision, they have been around for a long time and it was actually a 3rd party developer taht got hired and integrated.


dear stooch

so just for satisfying your localization needs, NT shouldnt hire anyone outside? I mean i dont get it.

So NT must go to kindergarten, make a IQ test to the kids, show them some radiosity renderers, test their tendecies, then kidnapped them, take them to the NT youth Lab. Teach them hi-degree math, never let them go outside, then when they write a code for NT, it will satisfy you because it was coming purely from NT. So i should call it PURIFIED CODE!. But even in this way, Kids are not the kids of "NT crew". So may be we should take the sperm samples from every NT crew and make the new generation purely from NT... That will do it i guess..

Because when NT hire a talented guy from outside, Some users are complaining. We gotta satisfy their PURIST (?) needs. HAIL NT! HAIL NT RACE!


Or we Should support NT for getting more talented programmers from around the world...Of course the PURE NT RACE will not be purified ever but at least we will get some time (in terms of development).

HAIL NT! HAIL NT GENERATION!

best

Cageman
11-19-2006, 02:22 AM
So why would consolidating tools require waiting for core updates??? its not like one needs the other, its just taking existing functionality and making it context sensitive or combine them = instant boost in productivity = happy users.

I'm all for consolidation, but I actually believe that in this case, the core needs to be updated to allow for this. I mean, Edges took forever to get into Modeler, and, as far as I know, it was beacause the old core wasn't versatile enough to just "add" a new selectionmode. With this in mind, I'm not surprised if this is true for consolidation as well...

Cageman
11-19-2006, 02:28 AM
Because when NT hire a talented guy from outside, Some users are complaining. We gotta satisfy their PURIST (?) needs. HAIL NT! HAIL NT RACE!


LOL :)

The sad thing about this is... it's true. Some LW-users are stuck in the notion that noone from "outside" should be allowed inside, because it's like cheating or something. :thumbsdow

rwhunt99
11-19-2006, 05:27 AM
I've noticed that the NT staff is working on nearly everything that somone is complaining about, I think it is real difficult for people to have patience. After all the Lightwave story is well known, I'm amazed that it is still around, it has a lot of catching up to do and they are doing the best they can. I am disapointed with v9, it crashes more often, the fancy tools like CC subD doesnt work etc. I am still willing to give them a chance to catch up. I noticed that people gave up on LW - Yet - they are still here in the forums. HMMM - I believe they still like it at heart. LW is a tool , there are many tools out there, no one knows more than Newtek. I wish them the best. :thumbsup:

jasonwestmas
11-19-2006, 08:13 AM
I've noticed that the NT staff is working on nearly everything that somone is complaining about, I think it is real difficult for people to have patience. After all the Lightwave story is well known, I'm amazed that it is still around, it has a lot of catching up to do and they are doing the best they can. I am disapointed with v9, it crashes more often, the fancy tools like CC subD doesnt work etc. I am still willing to give them a chance to catch up. I noticed that people gave up on LW - Yet - they are still here in the forums. HMMM - I believe they still like it at heart. LW is a tool , there are many tools out there, no one knows more than Newtek. I wish them the best. :thumbsup:

Yep, I'm waiting too, though not very patiently. There are a lot of tools out there and the people I work with are showing me more other than lw. It would be a shame to not have a strong enough reason to stay in the game here.

JamesCurtis
11-19-2006, 09:48 AM
I think LightWave 3D v9 has been more stable and slighhtly less bug prone than v8. Granted, lately I have not been a real power user. but I'm on a project now that will allow me to change that. I like all of the things NT are doing in 9.x and I know it's going to take time to sort it all out. I'm sure its not easy to rewrite a new core for a program and try to keep most older things still working right!

I've tried other apps and couldn't come to grips with them for some reason. I've been doing 3D since 1989 with the likes of VideoScape, Sculpt3D, Caligari [Truespace] and Imagine on the old Amiga platform before going to LightWave 3D with the original Video Toaster!! LightWave 3D was what really clicked for me. It's where I'm at now and as long as its around, I'll stay with it!

I still have faith in NT!! If all users gave up on LW [and jumped ship] then Lightwave and NT would surely fail!!

peteb
11-19-2006, 09:57 AM
Don't get me wrong, I’m not Lightwave bashing here at all. I've been using Lightwvave since V5.5 and I guess the main reason I've stuck with it is because I’ve become accustomed to the way it works. I've used nearly every other app out there at some point or other (not by choice) but none of them ever felt as easy, could I say as homely as Lightwave.
I just feel that there are a lot of tools in Lightwave that either don't work properly or just don't work as well as they should in this day and age. Take the mirror tool, great tool but why doesn't it mirror on the Y and Z too? Simple things like that which I'm pretty sure would take a coder no more the 2 days to code should be looked into.
I know NT aren't the biggest company in the world but how long would it really take to sort this sort of stuff out. Obviously the bigger core things like Catmull clarke, rendering, ect are big challenges but couldn't they have say two/three coders working on improving the tools that are already in the programme and generally tidying the whole thing up ready for version 10?
Maybe they are and come version 10 we'll all be laughing about this :beerchug:

Pete

Stooch
11-19-2006, 10:06 AM
good job on missing my point entirely.

let me simplify it for you:

5 cut tools = bad.

you do not need to rewrite the core to combine the 5 similar tools into 1 context sensitive and efficient tool.

as far as using outside talent, i never said there is anything wrong with that infact i support it wholeheartedly, its just nodes isnt an original idea.

as for the rest of your post, i dont know what the heil you are talking about. kindergarten? wtf? where are you getting this?


dear stooch

so just for satisfying your localization needs, NT shouldnt hire anyone outside? I mean i dont get it.

So NT must go to kindergarten, make a IQ test to the kids, show them some radiosity renderers, test their tendecies, then kidnapped them, take them to the NT youth Lab. Teach them hi-degree math, never let them go outside, then when they write a code for NT, it will satisfy you because it was coming purely from NT. So i should call it PURIFIED CODE!. But even in this way, Kids are not the kids of "NT crew". So may be we should take the sperm samples from every NT crew and make the new generation purely from NT... That will do it i guess..

Because when NT hire a talented guy from outside, Some users are complaining. We gotta satisfy their PURIST (?) needs. HAIL NT! HAIL NT RACE!


Or we Should support NT for getting more talented programmers from around the world...Of course the PURE NT RACE will not be purified ever but at least we will get some time (in terms of development).

HAIL NT! HAIL NT GENERATION!

best

Wonderpup
11-19-2006, 10:34 AM
I'm pinning my hopes on a kind of 'critical mass' theory, where at a certain point all the ongoing changes allow a truly 'reborn' lightwave to emerge- if not fully formed then at least identifiable as a truly modern app.

In the meantime I am looking at other packages and will certainly be buying foundation when V6 becomes available- if only as an insurance policy.

I think that if NT can pull off the trick of retaining the lightwave 'feel' while updating its capabilities, the result will be a formidable app that will ensure its future.

Matt
11-19-2006, 11:41 AM
Personally speaking the 'Reborn' tag was a mistake, it's not reborn at all, a complete re-write, now that's reborn!

tyrot
11-19-2006, 02:22 PM
dear stooch

i didnt miss your point..i missed your edges..:) (bad joke i know..i am not dave jerrard ...i cant be like him..i wanted to so much..but i cant..oh god how much i tried to edit my post under 2 min. like he did..but i couldnt.... )

anyways

there is a hidden attack in every NT related forum. I m not saying you attacked like this..may be you did ..i dont know ...i said i missed your edges, may be your avatar is so violent and it effected me.

when NT implements something from outside, some users bashing NT for NOT producing anything internally. Or when NT developes something internally, this time same people attacking them for not getting 3rd party.

MAX almost imported 70 percent of its features in last 3-4 updates. Even its renderer like many other applications.

So all i am saying NT is always under attacks of misguided users. So that s why we are here ... just to bring the balance...

BEST

Stooch
11-19-2006, 02:59 PM
no you definitelly missed the point. first of all, im not attacking anything, i am expressing my concerns, if i was attacking lw i wouldnt be using it now would i? how is wanting integration attacking?

also, i said it before and ill say it again, i dont give a squirrels ***** where or how these features come from, i just want these features to be integrated instead of slapped on. dont read anymore into this, anything else would be pure fantasy on your part.


dear stooch

i didnt miss your point..i missed your edges..:) (bad joke i know..i am not dave jerrard ...i cant be like him..i wanted to so much..but i cant..oh god how much i tried to edit my post under 2 min. like he did..but i couldnt.... )

anyways

there is a hidden attack in every NT related forum. I m not saying you attacked like this..may be you did ..i dont know ...i said i missed your edges, may be your avatar is so violent and it effected me.

when NT implements something from outside, some users bashing NT for NOT producing anything internally. Or when NT developes something internally, this time same people attacking them for not getting 3rd party.

MAX almost imported 70 percent of its features in last 3-4 updates. Even its renderer like many other applications.

So all i am saying NT is always under attacks of misguided users. So that s why we are here ... just to bring the balance...

BEST

jasonwestmas
11-19-2006, 03:02 PM
I've seen attacking in this forum before but this isn't it; right now we are just having fantasies right now about what LW 9 could look like.

Wonderpup
11-19-2006, 04:22 PM
Personally speaking the 'Reborn' tag was a mistake, it's not reborn at all, a complete re-write, now that's reborn!

Marketing and reality always have a strained relationship I guess. Still is was nice to see the lightwave 9 ad in the new Digit magazine today- it looked really classy and gave me a lift anyway- it's nice to see the app getting a plug now and then.

tyrot
11-20-2006, 02:04 AM
dear stooch

i told you, i said..there are users actually many users thinking and attacking this way. You said "no this is not what i wrote..you missed my point" and then we have no problem. I didnt accuse you or something.

Of course 5 different Cut tools is just ridiclous, since version 8 i m banging my head because of seeing many - same tools.

But i think after a serious coding time they will readjust many tools. I mean that is the logical way and i do remember Jay mentioned such a progress soon.

In this stage, when the core is changing severly, asking for "1" cut tool or "1" bevel tool would be a bit impatient wish.

I think their priority is to make a ONE CODE..After that ONE cut, One shift, One bevel would be easy to achive...

(But your avatar is really making me sick :) )

BEST

toonafish
11-20-2006, 03:44 AM
One shift, One bevel would be easy to achive...


and One camera ?

spec24
11-20-2006, 08:49 AM
If LW gets a major tool-consolidation and UI overhaul, it will go back to being my primary tool. I hate to bring it up as an example, but modo is really a good example of consolidation. The Bevel tool, for instance, works just as well on Edges, Verts and Polygons. It's the same basic tool, so hitting the B key works in all modes. Falloffs all work the same on all interactive tools. The Jitter tool works on everything, even on items! And so on and so forth.

In Lightwave, we have a whole bunch of bevel tools, all with small differences, and you can only map one of them to a certain key. This is highly inefficient. I want ONE bevel tool with lots of capabilities, not half a dozen bevel tools with marginal differences.

couldn't agree more!!!

Cageman
11-20-2006, 11:49 AM
and One camera ?

Hmm... maybe the Surface Baking Camera should be a separate unit? Orthographic camera should become "I have this viewport selected, in full frame, if I hit F9 it will render from this view"...

Classic camera may also be usefull for backward compatibility, but eventually die away...

But yeah, the rest of them... why aren't they the same?

Ohh..and I downloaded a 3:rd party camera called Tilt-Shift Camera, and it is an actuall camera to select, not just a bunch of presets to Advanced Camera. So, I see a future where I may have 5 different cameras developed by NT, and then 10, or even 100 cameras developed by others. If this is going to become the norm, then I suggest some kind of function that let me structure things little more. Sort cameras under categories, etc...

OR, this is one of the most obvious transitional part of LightWave... While Advanced Camera can't see things like SasQuatch and other pixelfilter plugins, they wanted to make a camera that can see it all, AND offer a speed-increase with things related to raytracing, until all those third party developers have developed their plugins to work with the advanced Camera, which, eventually, will be the only Camera in LightWave, of course, companied with a friend called Surface Baking Camera.

Then again... what do I know? :)

tyrot
11-20-2006, 01:10 PM
and One camera ?

dear toona

definitely one camera with various settings. 5 Cameras just too much for one update :) Cageman's idea is great though. "Render from that Ortho view" would be nice and efficient.

Best

lots
11-21-2006, 08:36 AM
The way I see it, is the dev team had a choice to make on where to start. There was quite a mess with the state of LW when the new dev team arrived. All aspects of LW needed modernization (yay new word?). They could rewrite the UI and improve that aspect of LW, leaving the under laying core relatively untouched, or they could put their focus into rebuilding the core, making future updates much easier, while improving LW and making it faster.

IMO its a much better choice to rebuild the core and improve the very basic elements of LW. As has been stated by NT, cleaning up the core gives the dev team the ability to kill many long standing bugs and issues with all levels of lightwave, and squash them at their root.

Improving the UI workflow is a very superficial thing from the eyes of a developer. The underlying core elements of the software package would remain the same and you would still be stuck with many of the same limitations and problems of previous versions. Afterall, a context sensitive bevel tool is simply an extra layer on top of the bevel tools that already exist. Kind of a controller that picks a specific bevel tool depending on selection.

My guess is NT does not have enough development staff to dedicate teams to all aspects of LW at once. Obviously that would take more resources and money. Insted they chose to focus on what was decided as the main problem areas of the software. And that, IMO, is the aging core, and all of the mess left behind from the previous dev team. Once the core is cleaned up enough, I expect to see alot of work go into UI streamlining.

peteb
11-21-2006, 08:52 AM
I agree about the core issues and maybe that's what they're doing but I'm not so sure. For example they've changed parts of the UI already, the Null option box springs to mind. I'm not saying they've finished on the core work but if they have time to start adding superficial things like having a quick option to change the shape of a null then surely they've got coders that can actually look at every tool and start thinking about making that tool the best it can. I don't understand why they're changing some of the UI of which so far appears to be of less importance then some of the major gripes that a lot of people have.

I don't want them to take their concentration off making the core as strong, fast and future proof as it should be but if they are going to start improving tools I do think they should approach it in a very thorough manner and so far I don't see any logic to the way they're going about it. Of course they probably have a very good reason for the way they're doing stuff, it just doesn't seem very apparent to me.


Pete B

Emmanuel
11-21-2006, 11:56 AM
Well, obviously Layout needed some clean out, and NT are just doing that, by recreating new parts of the software like the ObjectiD stuff, they can get rid of longstanding bugs and allow for long standing feature requests to be implemented.
Thats logic to me.Modeler will become faster and more responsive nd will be on par with Layout.My complaint in that case would only be that it is STILL two systems that are using the same techniques but not the same base.Modeler's OpenGL is probably different from Layouts.
We can call ourselves happy that we had a true mirror tools since forever.In XSI for example for a longtime (if not still) You had to duplicate and tell it to sclae -1 along the axis.There's a disadvantage of putting too much into a single tool (duplicate).
Its in Your hands, I mean I made myself a modeler tab with my most used tools, took 5 minutes and I wouldn't have to bother again.
I havent been using the shear tool for a while cause I can get thing done with move and falloff options for move.But nonetheless Shear is a useful tool in cases.I like bevel and smooth shift to be separate.Its easier.
Now if LW gets instances and even better, more advanced character tools and a history/modifier stack, it would be the perfect tool.And these things will come.I hardly believe that NT does stuff like new MB and AA and forgets about such significant things.They are not blind, but they must follow their own roadmap and still be flexible enough to add user requested features along the way.

Nemoid
11-21-2006, 01:50 PM
I think that some good level of consistency is the key. a single tool with too many options can be a disavantage, because you need a tool properties window always open,and options could be many. but in the other hand, having a myriad of tools is n't a vantage at all. a good point between the 2 extremes has to be found.
edges should be exploited from all the tools in modeler for sure.

the fact is that some tools are old code thrown in Lw, sometimes aquired from good plugin authors and in many cases they work only without edges or with some limitation

so gathering these tools toghether needs new code taking into account the characteristics of the best -similar and reduntant -ones

the questions Peteb posted at the start are the good ones to reply when coding and organizing an app.

Chuck
11-21-2006, 03:28 PM
So why would consolidating tools require waiting for core updates??? its not like one needs the other, its just taking existing functionality and making it context sensitive or combine them = instant boost in productivity = happy users. I dont think anyone likes to buy upgrades where the benefits that were promised are unfinished or unseen.

car analogies anyone?

Sorry, no car analogies, but yes, consolidating and advancing the tools requires making the core updates because the design and implementation of the tools is highly dependent on the edit system. Once we hit the phase of the rewrite where the edit system has been revised, then the tool rewrite will proceed. And can be done once instead of twice.

peteb
11-21-2006, 03:33 PM
"There's a disadvantage of putting too much into a single tool (duplicate)."

Although I agree with that sentence I disagree that any tool should be over complicated. I can't think of a single tool that if implemented right would require hundreds of tabs and drop down boxes. I am talking about modelling tools here not anything complex like dynamics or particles which to be honest can't really be summed up as a single tool. Bevel, mirror even the move tool could easily be simplified into single easy to use tools or just improved in their function. How many move tool options are there?

We use in house modelling software at work and I can do everything Lightwave’s move tools can do and more in a simple click because it's all been implemented with the artist and speed in mind.

Pete B

Pete B

Chuck
11-21-2006, 03:42 PM
Personally speaking the 'Reborn' tag was a mistake, it's not reborn at all, a complete re-write, now that's reborn!

That's what's in progress, Matt. :)

jasonwestmas
11-21-2006, 04:25 PM
Go rewrite! :o

toonafish
11-22-2006, 01:23 AM
That's what's in progress, Matt. :)


I believe it as soon as there's a decent Undo in Layout and we can select and edit Objects, Bones, Lights and Camera's at the same time :hey:

colkai
11-22-2006, 05:01 AM
I believe it as soon as there's a decent Undo in Layout and we can select and edit Objects, Bones, Lights and Camera's at the same time :hey:
Ahh, but they would be the result of the rewrite, not an indicator that there is no re-write. :p

I still have to keep reminding myself this is the start of the process, a fact I think, many have trouble getting their heads around. :)

I really do wonder how LW will "look" once the LW9.X cycle is over and what it will have in it. We live in interesting times. :D

tyrot
11-22-2006, 05:56 AM
We live in interesting times. :D

dear colkai

you nailed it. After years of waiting, it is coming finally.

By the way I knew Mr. Mark Granger would bring the drastic changes to the rendering core from day one.

http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/03-09-05b.html

It is happening....

BEST LW is Coming!

JohnMarchant
11-22-2006, 06:21 AM
Well Guys & Gals,

I like the way LightWave is going, yes it is a tuff period for us at the moment and has been for a couple of years but i think the payoff is coming soon. I personally am in this for the long haul, i think the 9 cycle is exciting but i bet the 10 cycle will be far more than that.

My only concern is that as many people stay onboard as possible, yes there are other packages but they all have their problems and many are also in need of a core re-write and have not really started yet, so in a way we are ahead of the curve. I was reading about XSI 6 and there are complaints already about this release and its not even out yet. Who knows when Max/Maya are going to get a re-write and who will survive.

I love LightWave and i like the way Jay,Mark,Chuck and all the team are heading.

Keep it up guys, we will get there in the end :):):)

Regards, John

PS Some Quick Reply Eh :)

Alliante
11-22-2006, 08:59 AM
Glad I'm supporting my community, and that my community is supporting me!

Thanks for the teaser, Chuck! :) :D :thumbsup: