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Exception
11-15-2006, 04:52 PM
Some proofrenders for the design I'm working on. It's really to test some lighting schemes. It's coming into place now, as I reworked the design a few times. There's so many details to be sorted out, I might not get it all done before the presentation, but anyway...

It's an educational art gallery, mostly underground. Quite a complex conceptual scheme. Perhaps a bit overly complex, but that always happens to my work.

Have to sort out the thermodynamics now...
When will LW have those calculations you reckon?

Oh yeh, Fprime, 4 bounce, about 4 hours each.

Exception
11-15-2006, 04:56 PM
Ooh that 2 minute edit limit...


Oh yeah, the lights a re a bit silly, i know.

archijam
11-15-2006, 05:01 PM
the lighting is super - particularly floors + walls ...

.. and dry enough to be a real architecture project ; )

i think cats would like living here.

just .. excellent.

j.

Dodgy
11-15-2006, 05:05 PM
Very nice!

evenflcw
11-15-2006, 11:59 PM
That looks... really friggin good! Very realistic.

parm
11-16-2006, 01:43 AM
Stunning renders. Congratulations :thumbsup:

colkai
11-16-2006, 04:26 AM
Very nice, a lot of good Arch Viz coming out of LW these days. :D

pienri
11-16-2006, 08:26 AM
Some information about the light setup?
Thanx

wavk
11-16-2006, 09:05 AM
Very nice, a lot of good Arch Viz coming out of LW these days. :D

ahem, you mean fprime and kray i reckon.


mlon

Iain
11-16-2006, 09:25 AM
Great work!
What are the hotspots on the first one?


Really nice lighting and texturing :thumbsup:

richdj
11-16-2006, 11:16 AM
Photo's go into another thread...:foreheads Seriously, excellent work, any hints about lighting???

Exception
11-16-2006, 11:33 AM
Thanks guys...
The hotspots are the haphazardly thrown in point lights, they're there for testing the setup of the architecture really.

The lighting setup is really simple, just a sunspot motion modifier on an area light, slighly yellow, skylight procedural as background, 4 bounce Fprime render to HDR. Then re-exposed afterwards per image, and corona added. Some vignetting work in PS.

colkai
11-16-2006, 01:12 PM
ahem, you mean fprime and kray i reckon.


mlon
For the lighting maybe, but lighting in FPrime is dependant upon LW (dunno 'bout Kray, ain't got it).

Now if it were modelled in Modo and rendered in Kray, I may agree with you. ;)

Exception
11-16-2006, 02:07 PM
I actually tried Kray with this, it took hours, and I had to mess around with the settings so much that I gave up. The results were terrible. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm just saying that I didn't have time for it. While the computer rendered these images, I was making the physical model, and preparing my presentation, which I found more usefull than waiting for irradience solutions to come out clean, and try to circumvent Kray's idiosyncracies.

Here's another one. Concrete texture on buttresses runs the wrong way :/

Nigel Baker
11-16-2006, 05:24 PM
Well Exception,

I can only say Exception-AL.
These are lovely shots, you know for all the talk about new render engines there is a lot of life still in FPrime.

Thanks for sharing.
Regards.


.

Pavlov
11-17-2006, 03:01 AM
Exception, you definitely have something odd with Kray ;)
As soon as 1.7 is out, i'll guide you through settings so you'll finally see that setting a scene for Kray is a matter of minutes, once you use correct settings and dont fiddle around randomly.
It's true that 1.6 was way different from current one, which will grant good results with nearly default settings, and i agree also the lack of a good manual has a role ;)
Excellent shot anyway, and i agree on Fprime's goodness - Viz pros need both Fprime and Kray.

Paolo

Iain
11-17-2006, 03:11 AM
I'm looking at these renders and the render times and wondering what Kray could add?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for options-I just don't see anything lacking in this work and other stuff I've seen recently done with FPrime.
It just seems that every time someone posts FPrime work, a post appears saying, "ah, but Kray could do that better."

I know FPrime is restricted from some features but you can get by without nearly all of them in architectural work. Caustics and volumetrics are gimmicks for the most part anyway.

Pavlov
11-17-2006, 03:57 AM
hi, i agree about Fprime quality, but effectively Kray does better, mostly for interiors. Most of the time Fprime scenes are view-dependant, you tweak lights until that view is good but if you turn around you have to tweak light rig again, because Fprime's diffusion is quite limited and must be coadiuvated. This does not happen in Kray; for single shots Fprime can be still a godsend, still use it a lot, but if you have more than on e shot Kray burns it; caching allows to reuse GI so all frames next to the first are much faster, and you have a control over diffusion which you cannot have in Fprime. You have multipliers, tonemapping, unlimited bounces, more light diffusion modes so you can get soft diffuse look ala Vray or high contras look ala Fprime/maxwell just changing some things.
Fprime is about snappyness and interactivity, and also quality; Kray is about control and even higher quality. some pics done in Kray could not be done in Fprime, every pic done in Fprime can be done in Kray but in much less rendertime.
I repeat, anyway, that if you work in Viz you need both; i still use fprime to set my materials and position of sun and camera, then i render mostly in Kray for interiors, Fprime for exteriors. For exteriors you dont need many bounces so peed gap is minor and Fprime is a bit faster to setup by its nature.
Putting interior work at 90% Kray and exterior at 40%, my workspeed has grown a lot.

Paolo

Iain
11-17-2006, 04:11 AM
Thanks for that. Very enlightening.
When does it come out?

Pavlov
11-17-2006, 06:55 AM
dunno, really. Still testing, Grzegorz keeps adding optimizations and advanced commands for deep tweaking so these must be optimized before shipping, and some small features are still to implement.
I'd hope before christmas, but dont know.

Paolo

Exception
11-17-2006, 08:01 AM
For these renders, I just set up the camera at different viewpoints and rendered away in Fprime. Its not necessary to adjust the lighting for each shot. That 'bad diffusion' argument does not make sense.
However, if I were to make an animation fo this, it would be hard with fprime. Seriously, i'd be looking at rendertimes that would be astronomical. Thta's where Kray would come in.
As pavlov loves to say, that I don't know enough about Kray to appreciate it, but he forget that I have been working with Kray for a year now. I know how to set up Kray properly. This scene has translucent curtains up near the ceiling though and it just took too long to mess about with the surface settings to get this particular look. I got a lot of render errors with kray, actual artefacts and such, and it was giving me a headache. I'm sure kray 1.7 will be great, but everyone's been screaming about it for more than 5 months now, and I'm getting tired of it. Release it already, or else just talk about it when a release date is set. It makes no sense wagging an imaginary lollypop in front of a baby's eyes, saying 'soon, soon, soon!' to them, for months!

Iain
11-17-2006, 08:19 AM
To be honest that's what I was getting at.

Kray does that better, Kray is quicker, Kray is as good as V-ray but, erm just not yet.

Pavlov
11-17-2006, 08:40 AM
For these renders, I just set up the camera at different viewpoints and rendered away in Fprime. Its not necessary to adjust the lighting for each shot. That 'bad diffusion' argument does not make sense.
However, if I were to make an animation fo this, it would be hard with fprime. Seriously, i'd be looking at rendertimes that would be astronomical. Thta's where Kray would come in.

Exception, i rendered thousand shots in Fprime (and still do), i'm not "inventing" odd statements. Cmon, i guess you know what i'm talking about ;)
First, i didnt say "bad" but "limited". Have you ever tried rendering a 20 bounces GI in Fprime ? Most of the times in fprime it's better to use max 3-4 bounces, and often they are not enough. Raising bounces alone doesnt solve it and rendertimes skyrockets. Fprime needs coadiuvation in diffusion, you wont get correct light diffusion whith sun and sky only in some situations. I'm not talking of simple dayrooms with 2 sofas, btw, but more complex ambients.
Fill lights are needed in lot of situations. Try to render, say, Ronchamp church in Fprime whith Sky and sun alone and whithout crappy ambient tricks. Small opening situations, dim lighting or complex spaces are not iommediate to setup in Fprime.
So, if you want to render several shots you have to be sure each one is correctly lightened to avoid burned areas or black ones, and anyway you will need recalculation for each frame.
This doesnt happen in Kray, so the more complex the space, the more complex the lighting and the larger number of shots you need, the better Kray performs respect Fprime.



As pavlov loves to say, that I don't know enough about Kray to appreciate it, but he forget that I have been working with Kray for a year now. I know how to set up Kray properly. This scene has translucent curtains up near the ceiling though and it just took too long to mess about with the surface settings to get this particular look. I got a lot of render errors with kray, actual artefacts and such, and it was giving me a headache. I'm sure kray 1.7 will be great, but everyone's been screaming about it for more than 5 months now, and I'm getting tired of it. Release it already, or else just talk about it when a release date is set. It makes no sense wagging an imaginary lollypop in front of a baby's eyes, saying 'soon, soon, soon!' to them, for months!


LOL, I "dont love to say you're not good at Kray", Exception, please dont take some talking here too seriously or as personal attack.
I agree 1.6x was slower and more complex to setup, and translucency was something to avoid becasue of extremely long times.
As i stated, i was referring to upcoming 1.7 version when i said i'd have guided you through a better setup, so i wasnt meaning you're not able to use it.
Regarding the fact i say you have something odd with Kray, it's because i see people can get good results with it, while reading your posts it looks like its crapware. Look here:
http://www.lwita.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2887
an italian guy did this with your same release. Very long times, but he didnt optimize it.
We (some people who offered some time to help improving a tool in change of nothing) are showing Kray results with enthusiasm, because we like to share with all OUR enthusiasm in having finally a good Gi solution for LW. Hope you understand this, along with the fact that its release does not depend on me... some testing is needed still, and implementations of new tools is not something i've decisional power on. As i said, hopefully it will be released this year, but in the meantime i guess and hope many people are happy to see progresses. If this is not true, please tell it so we'll stop showing.

bye
Paolo

Pavlov
11-17-2006, 08:44 AM
and ah, i forgot to say this: i saw just picture in post 15 and not the others until now, for some reasons i couldnt see the thumbs before; it's an excellent work, congrats. I suppose Vignetting is added in post, right ?
I made an averagely good PS action for Vignetting, i'll post it in an apposite thread soon, maybe we can share methods.

Paolo

Exception
11-17-2006, 08:56 AM
Yes vignetting is added in post.

Look, paolo, if my comments sounded a bit harsh, I apologise... we go way back, we can have an argument without feeling personally involved, right?

But I really do get sick and tired of these Kray arguments. Every single radiosity thread turns into this 'just wait until 1.7 comes out'. I don't care! I know you all think it is going to be great! I've read about it a million times, and I am sure it is! But just like PIM and LW 10.0 and Fprime 3.0, it's useless to me, because I don't have it!
I like to maximise the efficiency of the tools that I have, right now. That is not a waste of time as that knowledge will come in handy in the future. Kray 1.6 has its uses for me, but very limited, and its tradeoff of rendertime versus setup time does not suit my perticular needs. That doesn't mean it won't suit anyone elses...

For this scene I did 20 test renders in Kray. Each took about 5 to 6 minutes. That means I'm sitting there doing nothing, checking the internets, stroking the kitten, whatnot, for 5 to 6 minutes each time to have a clue as to what kray is doing. It's annoying. I knew it was going to look fine in Fprime, but for kray i had to adjust all the special materials. strip the gradients out of the channels, set up the skylight differently, whatnot, and it was still a mess, 24 bounces or not.

I know fprime has its limitations, but so does everything. I'm not making reality, I'm imitating reality, and if it needs a fill light, so be it. As an architectural photographer, I use fill lights too.

Exception
11-17-2006, 09:04 AM
In addition I would like to say that if the kray 1.7 interface does not contain anything smarter than what it is now with 1.6, it will still be bad to use.

I have outlined my ergonomic concerns with kray over 2 years ago already.
I am able to succesfully use LW render, Fprime, Maxwell, Vray, Lightscape, 3ds render, and mental ray. I have enough knowledge about these matters and I have seriously studied the kray engine. As it is now, with 1.6 it is capable of producing good results, but at a tradeoff of imensely long setup times, tweaking and error-evasion. That interface is an ergonomical nightmare. If I cannot get a decent, i'm not saying excellent, render out of kray with the first try, it's a bad interface, or a bad render engine. Anything more is a waste of time I do not have. I'm also tired of the 'you just don't know the settings' arguments. Like it's a puzzle or something.

Jure
11-17-2006, 09:07 AM
Very nice work Exc! i'd love to see walkthrough around the buidling. Is this acctualy going to be build?

Pavlov
11-17-2006, 09:11 AM
Yes vignetting is added in post.
Look, paolo, if my comments sounded a bit harsh, I apologise... we go way back, we can have an argument without feeling personally involved, right?

Absolutely ;)


But I really do get sick and tired of these Kray arguments. Every single radiosity thread turns into this 'just wait until 1.7 comes out'. I don't care! I know you all think it is going to be great! I've read about it a million times, and I am sure it is! But just like PIM and LW 10.0 and Fprime 3.0, it's useless to me, because I don't have it!
I like to maximise the efficiency of the tools that I have, right now. That is not a waste of time as that knowledge will come in handy in the future. Kray 1.6 has its uses for me, but very limited, and its tradeoff of rendertime versus setup time does not suit my perticular needs. That doesn't mean it won't suit anyone elses...

I can understand, and i add i'm heavily on Fprime as much as on Kray. The last thing i've in mind is astarting wars between engines, moslty if *our* engines. All we say is just "hey guys look here, something good is coming". In our opinion this is good both for users and for LW; many guys thinking at jumping otherwere have by now a good reason to wait a bit. I myself would love to have some tidbits about whats coming out about other tools, imho it's useful. If this has gone beyond legitimate limits, we'll try to keep Kray debates on apposite threads.


For this scene I did 20 test renders in Kray. Each took about 5 to 6 minutes. That means I'm sitting there doing nothing, checking the internets, stroking the kitten, whatnot, for 5 to 6 minutes each time to have a clue as to what kray is doing. It's annoying. I knew it was going to look fine in Fprime, but for kray i had to adjust all the special materials. strip the gradients out of the channels, set up the skylight differently, whatnot, and it was still a mess, 24 bounces or not. I know fprime has its limitations, but so does everything. I'm not making reality, I'm imitating reality, and if it needs a fill light, so be it. As an architectural photographer, I use fill lights too.



Gradients issue and lighting changes were effectively big deals in 1.6x; anyway Fprime result is pretty good.
but now that i think, i have something in mind... just wait ;)

Paolo

Exception
11-17-2006, 09:28 AM
Paolo, waiting is fine, but I am assuming you are aware that Newtek IS working on radiosity in native lightwave, and for the 9.x cycle, which means there will be a newtek solution within a year, and if they hit it right this time, Kray has a limited future...

So it's in Ktanzki's best interest to release kray as soon as he can, so that he can recoup his time investment.

Oh by the way, I always render to .hdr in fprime, an reexpose afterwards. Works like a charm, and I never have to tweak light settings.

Pavlov
11-17-2006, 09:50 AM
I know/hope Newtek give us something good regarding GI, but i dont think they will make Kray obsolete. Kray is a dedicated engine with aspecific target and many years of development (it exhisted before becoming a LW plugin as standalone engine, like PovRay).
Remeber that Kray is not only a good GI solver but also an ultrafast raytracer; try to do a glass scene with lot of blurry reflection/refractions, it's many times faster than LW even whithout GI, despite KDtrees implemented on 9.
It's not logical to assume NT will go that forward, Kray is a deep control tool, while NT is geared toward simplicity and few-parameter tools. I guess we'll see a good and useable GI solution, but as always who'll need the top will have to look at dedicated tools. Same goes for HV/Dynamite, Skytracer/Ozone, Modeler/LWcad, Character Studio/CAT, softBodies/Syflex and so on.
Things may change and NT could offer us the best GI solution on the market, but it's like if Autodesk, Maxon and Avid made something as powerful as Mental Ray or Vray: they didnt, they implemented another solution.
Again, Mental Ray is a monster engine, way more powerful than current LW's engine, but as you know most Max Viz-users still buy Vray becasue it has an edge on MR regarding speed and results.
Imho same will apply for LW/Kray.

Bye
Paolo

Exception
11-17-2006, 12:11 PM
Shhhhhhh, Paolo, you're right, but I'm just trying to bring Kray out earlier :)

Exception
11-18-2006, 12:03 PM
Here's the conceptual diagram...
without words :)

mav3rick
11-18-2006, 02:44 PM
Sick Great

Exception
11-18-2006, 04:49 PM
Thanks Mav3rick. Here's a section.
Except for the trees, people and earth gradient, straight out of Lightwave,

adk
11-19-2006, 09:40 PM
Sensational work there Exception :thumbsup: some of the best I've seen.
I love the subtle lighting details on those concrete corridors (second and last render) - especially close to the camera and the addition of subtle DOF. Very nice touch ;) Can't wait to see the finals.

anim8r
11-21-2006, 09:52 AM
So many things to like about your design! The blend of styles and materials are spot on. Might want to leave the building empty for a while =]

Fantastic renders too Exception, I actually pictured myself walking through the museum :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Are you submitting this for an actual Job? If so, I hope it wins.

Exception
11-22-2006, 10:56 PM
Thanks guys.

Anim8or, it's not for an actual job, but it is for my portfolio review, which is just as important :)
I'll post the final renders when they're ready.