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turbo
06-13-2003, 10:26 AM
But this only after three very long emails describing the problem, attaching system logs and providing a link to this forum.. :p
But of course at the end of it was their usual long list of advertising links... :p
Anyone wanting to back me up on this.. feel free to. Contact info is at the bottom of the email. :D :D :D

-----------------------

Dear Teri Thom,

Thank you for contacting ATI Customer Service Canada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email has been assigned:
TicketGUID:{66DC66A5-9D25-11D7-A570-00508BE22D04}

Please include the above identifier in all future correspondence
relating to this ticket. Note: The TicketGUID identifier must appear
in the message body, not in the subject line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding " Are you working on an updated driver?":

Driver updates are being worked on but a release date is not available at this time. Please check back to our website at http://www.ati.com/support/driver.html for updates as they become available.

Regards,

James Disken
Customer Service Canada
ATI Technologies, Inc.
http://www.ati.com

Ade
06-14-2003, 11:39 AM
so they gonna fix it or wat? did they admit to it?

turbo
06-14-2003, 11:48 AM
*sigh.. well just the fact that they assigned me a ticket number and actually answered my question, tho without detail, is promising..

" Driver updates are being worked on but a release date is not available at this time."

I had asked if they were making a new driver, when it would be released, would we have to wait for the release of panther before they made it, how long etc..

I pointed out their newest driver supported only 10.2.4 and we were now in 10.2.6.

My take is that they acknowledge the incompatibility of the current driver and are working on a new one.

But like most developers cannot promise a release date due to development time, testing etc..

Dr.Evil
06-14-2003, 12:46 PM
so what's the quick fix? reinstalling lw to just 7.5? or taking osx back a few notches? I can't do any lightwav'n cause it freezes asa soon as i move the model. if the quick fix is rolling back osx... how do I do it just plug my install disks back in will i have to back up my data? sorry never done it before...
thanks in advance.

turbo
06-14-2003, 12:57 PM
Working in a clean install of LW 7.5 and keeping 10.2.6 I am able to work most of the time in modeler without freezing if I only rotate very slowly. 7.5c was useless with this configuration. Also staying in wireframe for major tweaking makes freezing less frequent.

About rolling back to 10.2.4.. I would like to know the steps to that as well. And what do we lose if we do that? There have been alot of software updates since then. If its too much.. I will stay with my current configuration.

DP G4 500
1024 RAM
ATI Radeon 8500 mac edition
LW 7.5 (shipped version)
OSX.2.6

toby
06-14-2003, 03:00 PM
a clean install of 10.2 may work fine, but I've seen it cause disasters too, safest thing to do is "zero" the drive and re-install.

I'm still running 10.2.3, is there any advantage at all to 10.2.6? or 4 or 5 for that matter?

Ade
06-14-2003, 08:13 PM
Toby NO WAY MAN!
You dont need to zero your HD, just goto the system restore feature in your utilities folder, it will ask for the cd in time (of just chose it from an inserted system cd). What it does is reinstall your os to 10.whatever cd u install, it leaves alone your apps so no need to install LW again. Takes 10 mins at most, all LW will ask for is the eve3.framework which u get in the previous system folder by doing a find.
Copy em paste to HD, login as root and paste em in the libarary frameworks folder, if u know about Root this only takes like 5 mins to get back to 10.2.4.

This has been talked about in detail before.

toby
06-15-2003, 02:11 AM
It's not as simple as OS9 where you just erase everything and start from a clean slate. Unix uses a lot of hidden files, apparently many of these do not get erased when you clean install, which can cause major problems like "overlapping" files or not booting from anything, not even the cd. I've done a clean install and it turned out fine, it's just not the safest, I've seen some major problems come up with OSX, so I recommend people take the safe route.

tumblemonster
06-16-2003, 08:56 PM
I went back to 10.2.4 with 7.5c and am doing fine. No crashes or nastiness.

ATI sucks booty. I can't believe this has gone so long. I'm surprised Turbo actually got as far as a case number. Everything I've sent them about the problem has gotten me a canned troubleshooting e-mail, which is incredibly frustrating, because we KNOW what the problem is, and what can fix it. Oh well, back to work...

-tm

Ade
06-17-2003, 10:01 AM
Because of me having to stay at 10.2.4 i cannot install FCP4, it asks for 10.2.5...NOW...This is shi77ing me, and now this has gone on for tooooo long!

turbo
06-17-2003, 10:13 AM
well.. like i said..
- i am staying with 10.2.6
- lw 7.5 (shipped version, clean)
and it works tolerably as long as i rotate very slowly and don't make any sudden moves. :p

this way i don't lose any new plugin functionality or any new programs for OSX...

c made it intolerable..

Ade
06-17-2003, 07:23 PM
Still can hang the system which to me is UNACCEPTABLE for an APP of this stature!

turbo
09-08-2003, 04:27 PM
... over the months of loss of development time my patience has grown thin..

out of the blue.. or maybe because of all the noise i am making.. i got another 2 emails from ATI today.. see the last one below..

Anyone else wanna contact them and address this? My answer was i don't want to go back to earlier OSX.. and i haven't heard from Apple..

=======================
From: "ATI Customer Service Canada" <[email protected]>
Date: Mon Sep 8, 2003 2:01:04 PM America/Vancouver
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: ATI Technical Assistance
Reply-To: [email protected]

Dear Teri Thom,

Thank you for contacting ATI Customer Service Canada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email has been assigned:
TicketGUID:{66DC66A5-9D25-11D7-A570-00508BE22D04}

Please include the above identifier in all future correspondence
relating to this ticket. Note: The TicketGUID identifier must appear
in the message body, not in the subject line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you contacted Apple in regards to these problems? All core OpenGL kernel extensions (components) for the graphics board being used is provided in 10.2.6.

Can you fall back to 10.2.5 or earlier release? We want to try narrowing down this issue, and determine if the issue follows the release of the OS used.


Regards,

Matthew Kreiner
Customer Service Canada
ATI Technologies, Inc.
http://www.ati.com

Beamtracer
09-08-2003, 04:53 PM
I'd be interested to know if Newtek has made representations to ATI and Apple over this issue. Newtek should be making some noises regarding this problem.

Triple G
09-08-2003, 05:03 PM
Darn it, Turbo...you got me all excited when I read the title of this thread... :(

I was hoping there would be an actual solution to the problem here...not just ATI acknowldeging that the problem exists. Though I guess that's a step in the right direction...:rolleyes:

neoklassik
09-08-2003, 05:06 PM
Standard operating procedure. Blame the other guy. Maybe we should send them a link to all the threads on this board, CGtalk, Apple's site and any others so they know this is a documented problem with their driver. I'll do it when I get home. They should fix it.. not us. And if it is somehow Apple's problem they need to contact them. Not us. (Even though we have).
Thanks Turbo for keeping on top of this.

turbo
09-08-2003, 05:17 PM
thanks, neo
-the more ppl that can get on this, the better.

Beamtracer
09-08-2003, 05:50 PM
I conservatively estimate that there must be at least 30,000 Mac Lightwave users out there. Most of these would be ATI card users who cannot successfully update their computer's operating system without running into this ATI bug.

Quote from ATI:
"Have you contacted Apple in regards to these problems?"

Mac users should remember this quote from ATI when next deciding which graphics card to purchase. Maybe it would have been more useful for ATI to ask:

"Have you contacted nVidea in regards to these problems?"

My answer would be "not yet, but I will next time I need to purchase a graphics card."

turbo
09-08-2003, 06:18 PM
lol ... indeed :D

I've been watching ebay for an nVidia replacement, lost one due to outbidness.. others not shipping outside of US.. :( :rolleyes:

Ade
09-08-2003, 08:38 PM
Same... Ti nvidia card i want.

policarpo
09-08-2003, 08:57 PM
Well, some acknowledgement is better than none.

As a PowerBook user I am sort of stuck with my ATI card...so let's hope that the peeps who need to see this have their eyes, ears, and minds on the issue at hand.

I can't bloody model in Modeler anymore...it's like knowing a guy with a long bowie knife is about to jump out from behind a door as I walk down a dark hallway...how can anyone get any work done under 10.2.6 and these ATI cards...yeesh. We know it's just a freaking driver and OpenGL compatibility issue.

What's going on?

Ugh..back to modeling in Wings3D.

:(

turbo
09-08-2003, 09:32 PM
*sigh...

lasercade
09-09-2003, 02:27 AM
This bums me out to no end. I too am a powerbook user and modeler is just unusable.
I have quite a few apps that access OpenGl on my mac (Wings3d, After Effects, games, the friggin OS, etc.) and I NEVER have a total system lockup like i get with Lightwave modeler. Perhaps ATI is to blame, or Apple... but isn't there something unique about the way that Newtek is using OpenGl in modeler to cause this anomaly? Will they not take responsibity for creating a solution for a problem that ONLY seems to occur in their application?

mm

claw
09-09-2003, 03:49 AM
lasercade:

The same thing happens in Maya, and it's worse.

anders_gud
09-09-2003, 03:51 AM
This bug also affects Maya and even apple's Keynote!
Myself - I've had trouble with this bug when using VLC (a media player).

Ade
09-09-2003, 04:03 AM
Utter disgrace!

I hope Newtek screams down at them and becomes the saviour of this whole problem!

Utter disgrace for a mac problem, and its gone on too long.

anders_gud
09-09-2003, 05:06 AM
I can see that ATI recently released new XFree86 drivers (2003 09 04). Maybe it's time for ours soon...

policarpo
09-09-2003, 08:21 AM
My gut reaction is that someone at Apple did something with the 10.2.6 update and OpenGL tweaks.

I hope they are consulting with Alias, NewTek, ATI and other vendors to resolve the issue in Panther.

:)

Be sure to comment on this thread that Toby started at the Apple site: Free us of this problem!! (http://discussions.info.apple.com/[email protected]@.59994a26/9)

turbo
09-09-2003, 10:44 AM
I think it was 10.2.5 when it first started happenin..

And they should fix it separately from Panther as we are going to have to pay for Panther as a completely new OS anyways..

policarpo
09-09-2003, 10:51 AM
true true...but i plan on getting Panther as it stands...too many cool things in it not to. :)

let's just keep the pressure on ya know. :)

lasercade
09-09-2003, 12:23 PM
ohh didn't realize it was happening in other apps. ok, i'm posting this.
Dognabbit apple! The perceived benefit of Apple, a hardware company that also makes it's OS is that you get less of these kind of issues. The reality that is that you get the same problems as a pc, but with less choices.
I feel it's Apple's responsibility to communicate with ATI and figure out how to solve this.

mm

turbo
09-09-2003, 01:08 PM
as do i ;) (plan to purchase panther)... being that i see the happiness of a current beta user.. :p ;) :D (who is not a lw user, tho... and .. well.. we'll see in time, I guess)

the benefits of mac still far outweigh t'other guy..:)

toby
09-09-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
Be sure to comment on this thread that Toby started at the Apple site: Free us of this problem!! (http://discussions.info.apple.com/[email protected]@.59994a26/9)

Either you mean Turbo, or it means I'm sleep-posting again!! Oh no!

neoklassik
09-10-2003, 01:20 AM
Well,
Got my nvidia card (geforce4 ti), and it's working well. No crashes in LW (crossing fingers) yet.
I sent e-mail to ATI but I only think they read the snippy parts, where I explained I had done all the things they were gonna tell me to do so not to reply with suggestions on things already done! I included links to this anf the apple thread and gave my system config (Dual 1.25 ghz, OS 10.2.6, Lw 7.5b yadda yadda..)

and........

basically they sent me back a FAQ on how to diagnose in System 9. Duh. I guess they figured I hadn't tried THAT. LOL. And why would I being in X and all? Oh and then said "please do a search on our site" like I hadn't thought of that.

Anyone wanna buy a Radeon 9000? ;)

turbo
09-10-2003, 11:17 AM
I got another email from ATI, yay! I believe they are starting to listen. (I feel a little evil publicizing these emails, but DANG it! I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!!! :mad: Lets keep it up! MAKE NOISE PEOPLE, MAKE NOISE! "rawr".. )


==========================


From: "ATI Customer Service Canada" <[email protected]>
Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:42:03 AM America/Vancouver
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: ATI Technical Assistance
Reply-To: [email protected]

Dear Teri Thom,

Thank you for contacting ATI Customer Service Canada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email has been assigned:
TicketGUID:{66DC66A5-9D25-11D7-A570-00508BE22D04}

Please include the above identifier in all future correspondence
relating to this ticket. Note: The TicketGUID identifier must appear
in the message body, not in the subject line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We will forward all details of the problem you report for further investigation. Please attach the latest Apple System Profile report to your response. The ASP file needs to be in text format, for us to properly open up here.

Regards,

Matthew Kreiner
Customer Service Canada
ATI Technologies, Inc.
http://www.ati.com

turbo
09-10-2003, 12:21 PM
My first reply contained the Apple System Profile text logs as they requested. I then purposely crashed my system with Modeler just to make sure I could send them a recent log of the modeler crash..


====================


From: teri thom <[email protected]>
Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:14:49 AM America/Vancouver
To: [email protected]
Subject: TicketGUID:{66DC66A5-9D25-11D7-A570-00508BE22D04}
Attachments: There is 1 attachment


Please find attached the logs from this morning's Lightwave Modeler crash.
I was simply rotating a smooth shaded object in perspective view.
The crash was so hard I had to press the reset button. SSH-ing in to reboot did not help.



This is an ATI specific bug. Our senior software engineer with over 20 years of programming has said this.

"I have been able to cause the exact same error with either of these OpenGL commands:
glGetIntegerv or dglSetFSAASamples .. by setting the the FSAA higher then the card can handle."

FSAA is an ATI ONLY supported opengl extension. If ATI can't fix it, provide him with the source code and he will, as it's costing our company far too much time and money.

thank you,

Teri Thom.

===========

Now to cc Apple on this.. :mad: :cool: :mad:

policarpo
09-10-2003, 12:24 PM
SWEET!

Let's hope they step up to the plate and deal with it properly. :)

turbo
09-10-2003, 12:41 PM
Hehe.. *feels evil .. stirring up trouble..
Just sent to a specific person in charge of network operations centre for Apple and the entire NOC team. (heheh.. only email addys we could find)

*blames our programmer.. for getting me to send email.. :p

:cool: :D

policarpo
09-10-2003, 12:43 PM
whatever it takes for them to fix the problem ya know. :)

Johnny
09-10-2003, 02:36 PM
I think that making a concerted, well-noted noise about problems is the way to go...

Keeps the vendors aware of troubles, lets them know it's a concern to us, and lets them know we're going to keep on it until it's fixed.

J

subnet
09-10-2003, 08:32 PM
It would benefit us all if we tried to identify a common cause for this issue. In the hopes that we can come to a conclusion soon, we should include an ASP file as an attachment in this forum thread; thus we can identify trends, or similarities, ie, extensions, ROM version, applications installed, etc

maybe NewTek/Apple/ATI will find this useful?

my 2cents

policarpo
09-11-2003, 08:01 AM
Sounds good to me.

How do we go about generating such a file?

Johnny
09-11-2003, 08:05 AM
Just realized/remembered...I have an ATI Rage card in my Dual 450, but I haven't had this bug in Modeler...

Am I merely lucky and immune, or is it certain cards that precipitate the trouble?

J

claw
09-11-2003, 08:59 AM
The problem only happens on radeon cards, not on ati rage.

KPS
09-11-2003, 09:49 AM
How about a classaction law suite??:mad:

Johnny
09-11-2003, 09:52 AM
I think that the trouble with a class action suit is the fact that Mac users are in the minority..there could be a backlash against us, ie, 'those Mac people are more trouble than they're worth.'

However, if even-handed attention is poured onto the situation, it might give rise to a smaller manufacturer wanting to sieze an opportunity and start making stable, well-behaved cards for the World's Fastest Desktop computer..

J

Chuck
09-11-2003, 10:07 AM
ATI is working on the issue, and I've gotten a response from their development staff on one of the queries I've sent on the matter. They are having problems duplicating the issue and would appreciate assistance in doing so. Turbo or others, would you be able to forward me crash logs that I could send along to them? Our development staff and Mac beta folks will also be providing them as much detail as we can, but your detailed logs could be of great assistance.

Thanks!

Chuck

Ade
09-11-2003, 10:24 AM
.......You heard the man.......!
Get crashing!

policarpo
09-11-2003, 10:25 AM
Could someone tell me how to retrieve these crash log files after Modeler freezes and forces me to reboot?

I'm new to all of this.

Thanks.

turbo
09-11-2003, 10:26 AM
well.. I have thought about what they could do to compensate us.. mebbe issuing us all new cards and recalling the others..

turbo
09-11-2003, 10:33 AM
My good lord.. I have sent my crash logs to ATI and Apple and they are posted here in these forums multiple times. *sigh...

The easiest way to find it is in your home directory and its called 'system.log'.

However my quick way is by my programmer who sits beside me grabbing it when he reboots my system remotely.

turbo
09-11-2003, 10:34 AM
From: Do_not_reply <[email protected]>
Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:46:50 AM America/Vancouver
To: [email protected]
Subject:

Dear Teri,

Thank you for your recent correspondence with suggestions for improving our product.

Apple recognizes that our best advice comes from our customers, and we appreciate the efforts you have made to share your opinions with us. Your comments will be reviewed by members of Apples management team so that improvements can be implemented as necessary.

Thank you for your continued support of Apple.


Sincerely,

Apple Computer




>Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:37:31 -0700
>From: teri thom <[email protected]>
>Subject: Fwd: TicketGUID:{66DC66A5-9D25-11D7-A570-00508BE22D04}
>X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552)
>
> Help please!
>People at Apple need to be made aware of this.
>Pressure needs to be put on ATI to fix this problem.
>
>If ATI won't fix this problem Apple needs to give us a choice to use
>nVidia video cards instead.
>Here are some links to posts by outraged Apple/ATI users.
>
>http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9600&highlight=cripple+it+with
>
>http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3257
>
>http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10066
>
>http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9882
>
>http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10084&pagenumber=2
>
>People do not want to buy G5's that are crippled with ATI cards.

turbo
09-11-2003, 10:36 AM
From: "ATI Customer Service Canada" <[email protected]>
Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:38:37 AM America/Vancouver
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: ATI Technical Assistance
Reply-To: support[email protected]

Dear Teri Thom,

Thank you for contacting ATI Customer Service Canada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email has been assigned:
TicketGUID:{66DC66A5-9D25-11D7-A570-00508BE22D04}

Please include the above identifier in all future correspondence
relating to this ticket. Note: The TicketGUID identifier must appear
in the message body, not in the subject line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ROM update cannot be performed under OS X. Here are the requirements:

Bootable Mac OS 9 installation
RADEON 8500 Mac Edition graphics card (installed in AGP slot)
Firmware Update file
The computer MUST NOT be interrupted (shut down or power failure) during firmware update
Note: The v126 update will only replace older versions of the RADEON 8500 firmware. When you launch the update application, it will identify the RADEON 8500 and proceed only if necessary. If no update is needed, or if no 8500 is found, the application will exit.

Release Note: http://www2.ati.com/drivers/radeon8500-rom-126.html

At this time, we are investigating this issue. I will respond when feedback has been provided by ATI Engineering.

Regards,

Matthew Kreiner
Customer Service Canada
ATI Technologies, Inc.
http://www.ati.com

Johnny
09-11-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by policarpo
Could someone tell me how to retrieve these crash log files after Modeler freezes and forces me to reboot?

I'm new to all of this.

Thanks.

Isn't there a setting in the preferences of Console that will enable it to capture some kind of report?

J

Chuck
09-11-2003, 11:19 AM
Have chatted with the ATI engineer further, and his main concern isn't logs, which really only provide the info that the graphics chip has hung up but not what caused it, but rather that he can't get the crash to happen, and would like objects or a scene that it seems to happen reliably, so he can reproduce the crash in the debugging environment and pinpoint the cause.

turbo
09-11-2003, 11:21 AM
ok.. my bad.. here is the right way:

After rebooting from the crash, open the terminal and type:
cd /var/log <press enter>
cp system.log.0.gz ~/ <press enter>
cp system.log ~/ <press enter>

- after this time it will be in you home user directory.

they are just text files you can view with any text editor.. it is most likely that file (system.log.0.gz) because the system creates a new one every time it reboots. you'll have to ungzip it.

Posting screenshots to follow..

turbo
09-11-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
Have chatted with the ATI engineer further, and his main concern isn't logs, which really only provide the info that the graphics chip has hung up but not what caused it, but rather that he can't get the crash to happen, and would like objects or a scene that it seems to happen reliably, so he can reproduce the crash in the debugging environment and pinpoint the cause.
HEH.. but the logs tell you exactly what is happening.. Our own programmer can cause it.. plus we have posted earlier the exact calls that do it.

BTW just rotating an object either smooth shaded or wireframe shaded in perspective view will crash modeler.. I don't know how many times I have said this.

Chuck
09-11-2003, 11:32 AM
And I've sent a copy of that post along as well as links to threads; I was quoting the ATI dev guy regarding "what the logs show"; if you two have a disagreement on the usefulness of the log, beats me what to think, as you both know more than I do about the matter of Mac system logs.

I'm trying to make sure we get them every possible scrap of information they might need, and my apologies for any frustration this may cause if you feel you are being asked to repeat information you've already provided.

turbo
09-11-2003, 11:38 AM
No problem, Chuck. And thanks for stepping in. We can use all the help we can get. Sorry if I sound negative.. its just so frustrating because it's gone on so long. I do realize this will all have to be repeated yet again..

turbo
09-11-2003, 11:45 AM
For anyone interested in their system logs here are the screenshots I promised, to make it more clear. And a recap of the instructions..(this info provided by our programmer)


http://shadow.krabbit.com/turbo/lw_ati_stuff/log.jpg


http://shadow.krabbit.com/turbo/lw_ati_stuff/sys_log_0.jpg

After rebooting from the crash, open the terminal and type:
cd /var/log <press enter>
cp system.log.0.gz ~/ <press enter>
cp system.log ~/ <press enter>

- after this time it will be in you home user directory.

they are just text files you can view with any text editor.. it is most likely that file (system.log.0.gz) because the system creates a new one every time it reboots. you'll have to ungzip it.

Johnny
09-11-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by turbo
its just so frustrating because it's gone on so long. I do realize this will all have to be repeated yet again..

no doubt, but I think that even-handed persistence is the key here. A concerted effort of enough of us WILL eventually get the message across..

would be nice if they'd supply an example of what they need just to make sure there's no confusion of terms, and that we supply what they need.

J

NigelH
09-11-2003, 11:52 AM
Sorry if this too has already been covered, but am I correct in assuming that this freeze bug only happens in Modeler and not Layout? Or is it simply that constant manipulation of the objects is a necessity in Modeler and as such the problem is more critical there as opposed to Layout?

Since the Dual G5s only come with ATI cards, does this mean that LightWave will be dead in the water there? Or can one Model on an older machine (with an Nvidia card) and animate/render on the G5? Not an ideal situation, to say the least, but what are the alternatives?

Does anyone have any idea if a GeForce4Ti will work in a DP2Ghz G5 (or any other G5)?

turbo
09-11-2003, 12:04 PM
It only happens in Modeler for me.. but that is where I spend most of my LW time..

Scazzino
09-11-2003, 02:13 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm late to the party on this thread and want to help out if possible...

I can't get Modeler to crash here on my main machine by spinning models around: Power Macintosh Dual Processor 1GHz G4, ATI Radeon 9000 Pro AGP 64MB (running dual monitors off this card), 768MB RAM, Mac OS X.2.6, LW 7.5c

So the reason it must be so hard to reproduce is that it might only appear on certain hardware or software configurations. I'm running Mac OSX.2.6 with an ATI board and Modeler is fine here...

On this older test machine however, Modeler won't even launch without immediately crashing: PowerBook G3 Mainstreet 233MHz G3, ATI Rage LT 4MB, 288MB RAM, Mac OS 9.1, LW 7.5c

Maybe if we can compile a list of hardware/software configurations that seem to be prone to this problem, it might be easier for someone at ATI, Apple and/or NewTek to reproduce it... They obviously can't fix it if they can't reproduce it...

Scazzino
09-11-2003, 02:23 PM
Here's the easy place to find all your Mac OS X Crash Logs (if it hasn't already been mentioned):

* About this Mac
* Click the "More Info..." button
* Click the "Logs" tab
You'll se a hierarchical list of crash logs by program as well as a Kernel Panic Log if the entire system has crashed...

turbo
09-11-2003, 02:23 PM
DP G4 500
OSX 10.2.6
Lightwave 7.5 (clean install)
2X AGP
ATI Radeon 8500 Mac Edition
1024 RAM
Dual Monitors (CRT)

policarpo
09-11-2003, 02:24 PM
this sucks.

i modeled for like 30 minutes today without a crash.

i wonder how the crash occurs.

it's hard for me to reproduce it 'cause it just seems to happen when i need to get stuff done ASAP ya know...

it's a very very very weird bug.

but if someone has a sure fire way to crash modeler and freeze OSX let us know.

right now it crashes at different times...but it does happen when rotating the model...just not sure if it's a specific point count on the mesh in Sub-D mode or what...hrmmm...this is a nasty bug indeed.

System:
1ghz PowerBook 15"
ATI 9000 Radeon 64mb
768MB Ram
10.2.6
Dual Monitors

Scazzino
09-11-2003, 02:47 PM
System:
1ghz PowerBook 15"
ATI 9000 Radeon 64mb
768MB Ram
10.2.6

I also have a:
M8858LL/A
15" Titanium PowerBook G4 867MHz with 768MB RAM running Mac OS X.2.6 with the built in ATI video identified in the system profiler as a 32MB ATY,RV250M9

I tried to get Modeler to crash on that TiBook by opening and spinning many of the models in the default content folder, but it ran fine... no crash...

I'll keep trying...

Triple G
09-11-2003, 04:28 PM
Here was my system setup when the bug kept rearing its ugly head: (I've since downgraded to 10.2.4 and pulled the Rage card, splitting the Radeon to go to both monitors...haven't had any problems since doing so)


Modeler 7.5c
10.2.5 and 10.2.6
G4 1GHz (originally a 450, with a Sonnet processor upgrade)
100MHz system bus
2X AGP
1GB RAM
Radeon 8500 64MB connected to main monitor (LaCie 21")
Rage Pro 128 16MB PCI connected to second monitor (NEC 21" MultiSync)
Both monitors running at 1280x1024, in Extended Desktop mode (Mirroring off)

Like Policarpo said, it's a very odd bug because sometimes it would take less than 5 minutes for the system to lock up, other times it might take as much as an hour or more. But invariably, it would happen, and when it did, it was always when I was trying to rotate an object (medium complexity....maybe 7k-15k polys, if that) in either smooth shaded or wireframe shaded, in the Perspective view.

Beamtracer
09-11-2003, 04:51 PM
I'd like to thank Newtek's Chuck Baker for discussing this issue with ATI. Company to company discussions can happen at a higher level than emails from individual users.

Ade
09-11-2003, 09:03 PM
Is anyone still running 10.2.6?

I downgraded ages ago and am contiplating if I should upgrade just to test this bug.
I am in the middle o an important project.


Some ways I remembered to crash modeller-

*High polygon model's with multiple layers.

*Backdrop pictures with over 512 rez quality.

*Apps like safari running in back (not sure but always had it opened to read tutes).

*Constantly toggling single window to quads.

*Rotating preview window HOLDING option button shortcut.

turbo
09-11-2003, 09:07 PM
yes.. I am running 10.2.6 but it is extremely deflating experiencing modeler crash after modeler crash. I more often than not end up working in the game engine on terrain and stuff and putting off the modeling. *sigh... So its your call.. Can your project take these kinds of delays?

Ade
09-11-2003, 09:12 PM
Ill do it tonight... Help squash this bug once and for all. May install on second HD.

pat-lek
09-12-2003, 04:11 AM
I don' t know if that can help... but, in 10,23... the fleche of the mouse is stopped by the edge of the screen when i do a panoramique or a bevel ... but in 10,26, it seem that the fleche be able to go out of the screen, don't stopped bye the edgeof the screen ....and it's when the fleche go out of the screen that the modeler (and all the mac) freeze...

(I hope you understand what i want to say! Sorry for my english) )

claw
09-12-2003, 04:36 AM
also... I think it was in 10.2.3 that the mouse stopped working liked it used to in Lightwave. It was something with accelerating or speed.. since you couldn't work with mouse as the option (it was either to speedy or to slow), you where forced to switch over to tablet, and still it's like that. No one has fixed that either.

policarpo
09-12-2003, 10:37 AM
Well, I crashed today after having modeler open for only 1 minute.

I created a disc object, beveled it and rotated it and severe crash.

I had Photoshop open in the background along with iTunes streaming, Proteus, Safari and Mail.

I didn't do anything unique or special as you can see.

My machine just died when i rotated the simple low poly disc.

I did notice though that in the Startup Logs my card showed up as an ATI 8500 AGP, so I don't know if that is just the driver, or if in fact i have an 8500. I was always under the assumption that my 1Ghz PowerBook shipped with the 64mb ATI 9000 Radeon (my IT guy thinks it's just the driver info showing up though).

Ughh...so much for modeling. This is all very maddening.

:(

js33
09-12-2003, 10:55 AM
I guess this issue will exist on the dual G5 as well unless you put in a nVidia card afterward or it is somehow fixed by Panther.

Cheers,
JS

turbo
09-12-2003, 10:55 AM
:(

neoklassik
09-12-2003, 11:06 AM
" I was always under the assumption that my 1Ghz PowerBook shipped with the 64mb ATI 9000 Radeon (my IT guy thinks it's just the driver info showing up though"

A tip for those not sure what card you have.. in OS X (this should would similar in 9 as well), Click on the :apple icon(far upper left):about this mac:more info

This will take you into the system profiler..

Then go to: devices and volumes:PCI/AGP (toggle the black arrow down) and you should see your video card.

policarpo
09-12-2003, 11:16 AM
well it happened again.

i launched Lightwave Modeler and did the following:

1. Set up single view with viewport set to Top View.
2. Created a default flat Disc object
3. Beveled inside to create a hole in center
4. Began Extended every other face and moving the Viewport to Zoom in and out, etc

crash...

I was able to remote log in to my machine, but I was unable to get my machine back online, so I rebooted it remotely.

WTF!!! WTF!! WTF!!

:mad:

I don't think my LOG file is recording the error, cause this is the CODE i got, but it sounds like something different outside of Modeler...

Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE (0x0002) at 0x00000000

policarpo
09-12-2003, 11:32 AM
Well, I was able to replicate the problem by going through the same steps listed above.

I was using the David Ikeda version of Extender, but this time I will try the LW extender tool.

Is there anyone @ NewTek I can call to walk them through the scenario?

Going to try it one more time to see if it happens again.

Scazzino
09-12-2003, 11:53 AM
Well, I was able to replicate the problem by going through the same steps listed above.

I can't reproduce the problem here...

Can you elaborate on your steps, detailing everything including substeps? Click this, then set that to this... then click this... etc... use only LW bundled stuff and I can try to reproduce it on my 15" PB which is very similar to yours, though mine only has 32MB of VRAM... and a slower processor...

As far as the 1GHz PB 15" it states it ships with the 64MB ATI Mobility Radeon 9000 at this URL:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75431

The system profiler shows you the codes for the card (such as; ATY,RV250) but not the recognizable name, though if you boot with the Apple Hardware Test CD, that I think, will tell you the recognizable name of the video card, if in doubt...

policarpo
09-12-2003, 12:11 PM
yep, see here:
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=75958#post75958

mlinde
09-14-2003, 11:12 AM
oops.

turbo
09-16-2003, 02:13 PM
Here is my response to and their email from this morning. :mad:

----------
:mad: :mad: :mad:

So ... in other words, all 30,000+ Mac Lightwave users should remove their ATI cards, smash them with a hammer and send them to the president of ATI and then spend $500.00 to replace them with an nVidia card.
Tell me.. is that really the kind of press you all at ATI can afford?

Because we are mad as hell and we aren't gonna take it anymore!
Its' time this was made known to the planet.

thanks for nothing ATI.



On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 12:42 PM, ATI Customer Service Canada wrote:

Dear Teri Thom,

Thank you for contacting ATI Customer Service Canada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email has been assigned:
TicketGUID:{51C094DF-AEFF-42AC-A2FC-863AEC45369B}

Please include the above identifier in all future correspondence
relating to this ticket. Note: The TicketGUID identifier must appear
in the message body, not in the subject line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding FSAA issue:

We are investigating the issue and right now there is no solution.


Regards,

Syed Hasan
Customer Service Canada
ATI Technologies, Inc.
http://www.ati.com

policarpo
09-16-2003, 02:20 PM
too funny.

I am currently running LW7.5 on an external startup drive with 10.2.4 installed and it is running like a champ.

I am going to run LightWave for a few more modeling hours and update it to 10.2.6 and see how LightWave behaves.

If it crashes like i think it will based on my outlined steps, then I will be contact Apple directly on the old telephone.

I didn't spend 3k to not get any work done ya know. :)

turbo
09-16-2003, 02:23 PM
no kidding, neither did I!. 3 generations of macs, all the awesome software.. *sigh.. this really got my blood boiling this morning.. I also forwarded a copy to apple.. I'm sure they will be none too pleased with another email about this to their entire network operations center. I just couldn't help it. I'm really angry now.

policarpo
09-16-2003, 02:26 PM
Yeah, I am just as pissed too.

I'll let you know what happens and such.

Just remember to be rational about all of this...and don't loose your cool.

Remember that you are the customer and you are always right.

On the new startup drive all I have is LW 7.5 running, so we'll see what happens when 10.2.6 is up and running. :)

turbo
09-16-2003, 02:35 PM
I know.. and you are right, of course. I will try to maintain a semblance of professionality, difficult as it is becomming.. :(

Thanks for your wise words.
But I really think with all the loss of production time, momentum, troubleshooting, deflated mood etc.. a recall and replacement is in order.

Every $500 bucks adds up.. :( :p *sigh...

policarpo
09-16-2003, 02:43 PM
Oh, I totally agree.
:D

Johnny
09-16-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by turbo
So ... in other words, all 30,000+ Mac Lightwave users should remove their ATI cards, smash them with a hammer and send them to the president of ATI and then spend $500.00 to replace them with an nVidia card.
Tell me.. is that really the kind of press you all at ATI can afford?

no WAY, man!

that's what the message board is for, in part...to sometimes vent to other people who can understand what the frustration is about.

I think that the best way for us all to handle it is through patient persistence on a professional level. I feel that this translate into supplying the information they want, firmly and persistently telling them that the problem needs to be addresssed, but doing so with a minimum of freaking out, which only obfuscates the cause.

Both ATI and Apple need to know that there is a problem, what the problem is, and the scope of the problem (ie, how many customers).

You guys are on the right track, and I'm afraid I'll be joining you as soon as my Dual 2Ghz gets here..with its 9800.

It would be nice if Mr. Jobs could use some of his powers of persuasion to get some manufacturer to make a really stable, and powerful card for us all to use... maybe down the road?

Johnny

turbo
09-16-2003, 02:50 PM
but they're not listening! we've been making them aware of this situation since April! Apple doesn't even answer the issue on their forums and ATI refuses to look at a driver solution. I need to replace my card. That's a minimum of another $500. I can't wait much longer. so that means eating the ATI card. If I have to do that, I'll do it fighting and making all the noise I can. :mad: (oh.. and btw.. i'm a girl.. :p )

mlinde
09-16-2003, 02:51 PM
Ok, I've been holding out:

[email protected]

Please include your system specifications, what model of Radeon card you are running, and what version of Modeler (7.5, 7.5b, 7.5c)

You might want to make the subject something like "Possible OS OpenGL BUG" since we aren't sure it's OS caused. If Apple gets swamped, they may work to resolve this faster, or at least hassle ATI to work harder.

Why OpenGL? Because Newtek has mentioned in the past that their display engine for the modeling and layout windows is almost entirely OpenGL-based.

turbo
09-16-2003, 02:59 PM
DONE! :mad:

Johnny
09-16-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by turbo
I can't wait much longer. so that means eating the ATI card. If I have to do that, I'll do it fighting and making all the noise I can. :mad: (oh.. and btw.. i'm a girl.. :p )

oops! my bad! (" btw.. i'm a girl.. :p)

I think you're doing the right thing. I know that common sense tells us that companies who want our business again need to FIX problems, especially after many people tell them that there is one...

Still, I feel that we ought to keep it up, and vote with our wallets..maybe THE only way that ATI will get the freakin' message?

J

js33
09-16-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by turbo
but they're not listening! we've been making them aware of this situation since April! Apple doesn't even answer the issue on their forums and ATI refuses to look at a driver solution. I need to replace my card. That's a minimum of another $500. I can't wait much longer. so that means eating the ATI card. If I have to do that, I'll do it fighting and making all the noise I can. :mad: (oh.. and btw.. i'm a girl.. :p )

Why $500. A GF4 Ti 4200 is probably only about $100 or were you thinking of another card. Well thats what I use for LW on the PC and it works fine.

Cheers,
JS

Triple G
09-16-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by js33
Why $500. A GF4 Ti 4200 is probably only about $100 or were you thinking of another card. Well thats what I use for LW on the PC and it works fine.

Cheers,
JS

Well...in case you weren't aware, the GF4 Ti for Mac (the current top-of-the-line, non-OEM, non-ATI card available) retails for around $375-$400. Sure there are less expensive Nvidia cards around, but none that you can purchase new (eBay seems to be the best option there), and the likes of the MX series of cards doesn't compare feature-wise with the latest crop of ATI cards (when they're not causing Modeler to crash, that is).

Johnny
09-16-2003, 03:46 PM
just curious...what will life be like with a lesser or no card?

is it just a matter of screen redraws? seems like no card at all would be better than having modeler freeze while you're working..

J

Triple G
09-16-2003, 04:52 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's possible to run a Powermac without any video card installed. First of all, how would you hook up a monitor to see what you're doing? There's no dedicated VRAM on the motherboard, like there were with some older pre-G3 models. Second of all, the OS itself (Jaguar) is very OpenGL-dependent, so having a good OGL-compliant video card is pretty much a necessity.

turbo
09-16-2003, 05:20 PM
sounds about right to me.. heheh.. my reply to the previous post would have been "now that's just silly"... so it's a good thing I deferred to you. :p

js33
09-16-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Triple G
Well...in case you weren't aware, the GF4 Ti for Mac (the current top-of-the-line, non-OEM, non-ATI card available) retails for around $375-$400. Sure there are less expensive Nvidia cards around, but none that you can purchase new (eBay seems to be the best option there), and the likes of the MX series of cards doesn't compare feature-wise with the latest crop of ATI cards (when they're not causing Modeler to crash, that is).

I agree the MX cards are kinda dated but I have a GF2 MX in my iMac and my old PC and they work fine with LW.
So how much is Ti4200 for the Mac? You don't really need the latest card to run LW. Also the 4200 is about the same speed as a 5200 FX card. The only advantage of the 5200 FX, at least on the PC, is that it is a DX9 compatiable, in hardware, card where the 4200 is only DX8 compatiable.
The only need to have a top end card is mainly for game performance.

Cheers,
JS

Triple G
09-16-2003, 08:24 PM
Well, the point is that right now, there is no choice if you want a new Nvidia card for your Mac...it's either the GF4 Ti (no number designation), or nothing. Nvidia's site doesn't really seem to be laid out very well in this regard. It's very unclear as to exactly what products are PC-only and what products are indeed available for Mac. From what I can gather, it seems that there will be some (hopefully more than one) FX-series cards on the way, but for now, doing a search on the usual purchasing sites (Small Dog, MacMall, etc.) shows the GF4 Ti as your only option for a new card. As mentioned before, you could try to find an older MX-based card or a GF3 on eBay, but some people (myself included) would prefer not to buy used computer parts if they don't have to.

Ade
09-16-2003, 09:29 PM
Just emailed Apple a huge SOB letter stating we will not recommend our studeio gets G5's because simply ATI cards cannot run Lightwave properly in 10.2.6 and we also were going to buy FCP4, this is true, as with most ppl here.

Johnny
09-16-2003, 10:30 PM
huh...seems that apple has the potential for a hugh PR exploding pukebomb if they have the 'fastest personal computer on earth' which can't be used for professional work, like 3D and FCP all because of a steenkin' video card issue.

I mean, jeeze! It's like getting to the launch pad with a rocket to mars, and not being able to take off because somebody forgot to put the fins on!

sheesh!

J

js33
09-16-2003, 11:11 PM
I still don't understand why Apple doesn't give you the choice of the ATI or the highest end nVidia 5900FX or whatever it is. For a high end machine to have no choice but ATI kinda bites. Must be a behind the scenes deal with ATI.

Cheers,
JS

Ade
09-16-2003, 11:20 PM
Wish wildcat or some other pro open gl only card maker made it to mac, like what matrox is to fcp.

Triple G
09-16-2003, 11:35 PM
Man, if 3D Labs were to jump in the ring and offer a Wildcat or even an Oxygen card for Mac...heck, I'd buy it in a heartbeat! I've used older versions of both cards in some PCs that I've worked on in the past, and I never had any display-related problems with either of them...both were rock-solid and wicked fast. In fact, I'm surprised that 3D Labs hasn't jumped into the Mac ring yet...ATI isn't exactly winning any friends, Nvidia products are few and far between, even on build-to-order Macs....if you ask me, the door is WIDE open for another vendor to come in and produce a fast, solid, NON-GAMING card that Mac pros can utilize in production.

turbo
09-17-2003, 12:17 AM
testify, my brothers, testify!

Johnny
09-17-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by js33
I still don't understand why Apple doesn't give you the choice of the ATI or the highest end nVidia 5900FX or whatever it is. For a high end machine to have no choice but ATI kinda bites. Must be a behind the scenes deal with ATI.

Cheers,
JS

it does bite..in fact, I even got an Apple Tech Support person to say in no uncertain terms that there is NO technical reason that the nvidia choice couldn't be put into the Dual 2Ghz..she said she knew for a fact that it could be physically done, and that it would functionally work, but the Apple Store people said that there was no way they could do it (procedurally).

So..where I'm at now is that I am loathe to actually spend more $$ on a card which, by all reports here, is nearly guaranteed to cause me pain and strife with LW.. and take the money I save, and buy a card that won't give me trouble..and hope that Apple won't void my applecare.

really, it's childish what they're doing with respect to this..really childish.

J

Pooka
09-17-2003, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by Ade
Wish wildcat or some other pro open gl only card maker made it to mac, like what matrox is to fcp.

Maybe we should start a new thread at the 3Dlabs Forum?

wizlon
09-17-2003, 06:07 AM
One of our IT guys here bought a NVidia 5900fx and in the booklet that came with it the list of supported platforms included MacOSX.

Also Jaguar has support for ATI FireGL and Nvidia Quadro cards, so I think we'll see them soon too.

Ade
09-17-2003, 06:31 AM
Wiz specs of that nvidia card please!

Also its not 100% panther (u said jaguar) will have pro card support.

wizlon
09-17-2003, 07:21 AM
Mybad - Panther OSX.3 has support for FireGL and Quadro.

The Nvidia card was bought for his PC and he noticed MacOSX was supported as he read through the manual. Could be a typo though as the website says it only supports the 5200fx ultra on mac?

Triple G
09-17-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Pooka
Maybe we should start a new thread at the 3Dlabs Forum?

Done. Check it out:

Support for Mac OSX...how 'bout it? (http://www.3dlabs.com/support/forum/thread.jsp?forum=9&thread=4776&tstart=0&trange=15)

Maybe if enough of us show a real interest in 3D Labs making products which support our platform of choice, ATI and Nvidia won't be the only options anymore. And as we all know, choice is good. :)

turbo
09-17-2003, 12:15 PM
I'm on it. done and done.

Hey.. guys look at the way this thread is going. It looks more and more every day like ATI is losing credibility. People are looking elsewhere. Its gonna take its toll soon, metinks.. :p

Triple G
09-17-2003, 12:31 PM
Well, that's the way things go. Brand loyalty for the sake of brand loyalty is just plain foolish. If a company doesn't respond to its customers' needs, eventually that customer is going to look elsewhere. No one has time (or $$) for a product that doesn't work correctly.

mlinde
09-17-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by wizlon
Mybad - Panther OSX.3 has support for FireGL and Quadro.

The Nvidia card was bought for his PC and he noticed MacOSX was supported as he read through the manual. Could be a typo though as the website says it only supports the 5200fx ultra on mac?

If this is the PNY card, I've been running around this lately, to find out that the PNY FX 5200 (or 5600, I don't actually remember which) does NOT work on a Mac, even though someone is marketing it as cross-platform.

I'd love to hear someone actually say they have a PC nVidia card working in a Mac that isn't a flashed GeForce 2MX or GeForce3. I've been scrolling through pages of Gooooooogle searches trying to find a real person that has put ANY Quadro, FireGL, GeForce4 (not Apple-branded), or GeForceFX card in a Mac and made it work. After about four more hours yesterday of searches and phone calls I still don't think it can be done.

Chuck
09-17-2003, 02:31 PM
ATI programming staff are indeed working on the problem. I got a response last week, and my request here for further information was fruitful and the ATI staff have now been able to duplicate the problem on one of their in-house systems. Now that they've duplicated the issue, they expect to be able to pin down and correct the cause. I'll post further info as I hear from them.

Johnny
09-17-2003, 02:38 PM
Chuck;

That's pretty encouraging. Thank you for taking the time and making effort to follow through on this!

Johnny

turbo
09-17-2003, 02:47 PM
Yes, thx, Chuck. It does sound encouraging.
They do indeed give bigger companies more info, apparently. (the info in the email they sent me just yesterday was not helpful or encouraging whatsoever... see above (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5887&perpage=15&pagenumber=6) )

So I will reserve judgement until the issue is addressed. (either the drivers updated or my card replaced)

Triple G
09-17-2003, 03:03 PM
Ditto...thanks for the update, Chuck. My faith in ATI has pretty much already been shattered, and I highly doubt I'd buy another product from them again, but regardless...it'd still be nice if this problem could be resolved so that I can use my current card with the latest OS revision without worries that it'll take my entire system down. :rolleyes:

Pooka
09-17-2003, 03:16 PM
Okay,
It's good they want to fix the problem.
But we're still talking about Game cards.
I want a high end 3D card.

policarpo
09-17-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Pooka
Okay,
It's good they want to fix the problem.
But we're still talking about Game cards.
I want a high end 3D card.

Well...that's another issue entirely.

Let's not put the cart before the horse. :)

turbo
09-17-2003, 07:09 PM
Why should they be separate issues? Should not the developer of games and the gamer both be able to benefit from one card that serves both?

policarpo
09-17-2003, 09:00 PM
I'd rather have my bugs squashed first so I can get back to modeling under 10.2.6 and Panther, before we open the FIREGL support can of worms. :)

tumblemonster
09-17-2003, 09:33 PM
I'm glad chuck got a response from them.

I keep hearing comflicting reports about Panther's support of high-end 3d cards. Am I correct in thinking it is ultimately the cards developer that is responsible for supporting a give card on a given platform? In other words, they write the firmware and the drivers, and Apple has very little to do with it? The only thing missing from the G5 is a high end card option.

-tm

Johnny
09-18-2003, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by tumblemonster
I keep hearing comflicting reports about Panther's support of high-end 3d cards. Am I correct in thinking it is ultimately the cards developer that is responsible for supporting a give card on a given platform?

I wonder if Apple is just going to have to jump in, design some killer cards and HAVE them made! I've heard a number of conflicting reports on just how hard or easy it is to do it...it *sounds* relatively easy, but yet why aren't more manufs actually doing it for mac?

J

mlinde
09-18-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by tumblemonster
I keep hearing comflicting reports about Panther's support of high-end 3d cards. Am I correct in thinking it is ultimately the cards developer that is responsible for supporting a give card on a given platform? In other words, they write the firmware and the drivers, and Apple has very little to do with it?
Actually, this is a mixed bag.
ATi writes the firmware and drivers in conjunction with Apple, then continues to develop drivers for their retail cards.

nVidia sells the GPU (GeForce chips) to Apple, who builds the card, then writes the firmware and drivers for the Mac nVidia products. nVidia does not sell cards with drivers, they let other developers write drivers and sell cards, like PNY. This is part of the reason there are no other Mac-compatible nVidia cards.

If ATI were to develop a FireGl card for the Mac, they would need to develop the firmware, and the drivers. If the drivers already exist in Panther, then the firmware may be in development now. I still don't know if they exist though.

Someone (Apple, PNY, maybe even nVidia) needs to develop firmware and drivers for the Quadro GPUs before you will see a Quadro card on the Mac. Same goes for the Wildcat and Oxygen cards.

zander
09-18-2003, 01:49 PM
This won't help anyone else, but...

I swapped out my Radeon 8500 (out of shear frustration) with a stock (Apple) GeForce 4 MX and have had no problems what-so-ever. I used to get Modeler lockups 6-8 times a day.

Since then, I've crashed Modeler/Lightwave twice in about a week. I'm running 7.5 under 10.2.6. I'll probably upgrade to 7.5c now... The new card feels a little slower, but I can actually get work done now.

I'm lucky, because tech-support at my company had 1 GeForce which I could swap with (...and we have maybe 100 Macs here.)

policarpo
09-18-2003, 03:53 PM
well i am stuck, soldered, molded to my ATI radeon 9000 card since I have a PowerBook. :(

tumblemonster
09-18-2003, 08:48 PM
I'm purchasing a New 15 inch powerbook in two weeks, and I have an 8500 card in my G4. I really hope they fix this problem soon...

-tm

js33
09-19-2003, 01:05 AM
I just saw a Microcenter flyer that had a 17" Powerbook with a nVidia GF4 440 Go w/64 mb DDR. Is this a new config?
I thought all Powerbooks had ATI cards.

Cheers,
JS

zander
09-19-2003, 12:06 PM
According to Low End Mac:

The 1GHz PowerBook G4 (http://www.lowendmac.com/pb2/17in-g4.html) (introduced 2003.01.07) has a nVidia GeForce4 440 Go with 64 MB.

It was replace 3 days ago with the 1.33GHz (http://www.lowendmac.com/pb2/17-133.html) model which now has an ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 with 64 MB.

The only other PowerBook that has an nVidia chip set is the 12" model. Originally with a nVidia GeForce4 420 Go and now with a nVidia GeForce4 5200 Go. Both with 32 MB

js33
09-19-2003, 12:23 PM
So they had a Powerbook that would work with LW then rendered it useless when they put in the ATI card. :o

Cheers,
JS

pat-lek
09-22-2003, 01:25 PM
I have posted a request at the ati' s support... Say it that my modeler freeze!!(errrgh!)... and now; it is possible that the same bug is on vue d' esprit 4 pro!!!!.... :( :mad: :eek: :confused:

turbo
09-22-2003, 01:50 PM
I have a Apple Mac nVidia GeForce 4 MX AGP video card on the way.. got it off ebay. Just a little 32 meg one but me programmer says it will outperform the shoddy 64 meg ATI Radeon 8500 Mac Edition I have in me DP G4 500 now.

Should find out in a couple days, and being that it will be the only thing I change, the proof will be in the pudding.

Questions:
1) anyone with a G5 using the ATI card... how's it going with modeller?
2) anyone with a G5 switched in an nVidia card... how did you go about doing that?

Ge4-ce
09-22-2003, 03:56 PM
I was at Apple Expo in Paris..

One:

I adressed several people at the expo about our ATI-OPenGL etc.. problem.. all responds were about the same:

-Never heard if this before
-I heard of it, but cannot help you
-Haha ha.. you're in deep **** then
-This is a newtek Problem
-This is an ATI problem
-This is an Apple problem

then the good news:

I also tried to look for confirmation on those FireGL or Quadro cards.. Looks like they really are coming!! It was not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" was the general answer..

Now, I don't know ofcourse if these guys really knew what's up or that they acted from a "I want this to happen, so it will" perspective.. meaning: I will believe when I see

turbo
09-22-2003, 04:13 PM
... believe it when i see it, that is.. as well as a helpful answer/driver fix from ATI..:p :rolleyes:

Here's (http://discussions.info.apple.com/[email protected]@.59994a26) what I last posted at the Apple forum... probly the only way to make Apple listen... :p >:)

tumblemonster
09-22-2003, 09:55 PM
Would a class action lawsuit persuade Apple and ATI to fix this problem? This bug was discovered, what, 8 months ago? ATI is still selling the cards, Apple is still shipping them in their system, and they still freeze a supposedly "uncrashable" OS (technically the card is freezing, but still). It's a fully documented problem, and yet they're claiming they just became aware of it? Please. We could certainly claim lost revenue do to our investement in their hardware. And where am I at when my only option becomes to use an up-to-date system version? I ordered a new powerbook last night, and they apparently require the interim 10.2.7 system to run.

This has to be fixed. I get the feeling they're getting ready to play the "It's all fixed in Panther" card to force everyone to upgrade. Rediculous. I give them untill my Powerbook is delievered, then I'm getting pissed!

-tm

Ade
09-22-2003, 10:13 PM
Tumble has a great point!
Apple is dying to be seen as the 3D pros choice, so is ATI.
If we created anough bad publicity they would be forced to act!

Ade
09-22-2003, 10:25 PM
I have just emailed Mike at
xlr8yourmac (www.xlr8yourmac.com)

He knows heaps there is to know about dealing with issues like this and is constantly reviewing stuff. They also use Lightwave too so if he was to say to ATI we cannot reveiw your cards properly they would listen. lets hope he has time to help us somehow.

Ade
09-22-2003, 11:10 PM
Got a reply from Mike at xlr8yourmac.
hes having troubles reproducing the bug with his 9800 card. Did u guys find a 100% way to crash and get the bug happening?

zander
09-23-2003, 08:24 AM
I think I found a way to crash Modeler (at least it's worked for me three times so far...) Could some other people try to verify this?

1. Open Modeler.
2. Make sure viewports are set to the standard "Quad" setup.
3. Set the shader for the "Top" viewport to "Wireframe Shade". And set the shader for the "Perspective" viewport to "Wireframe Shade".
4. Make a Box, 1m x 1m x 1m, and centered on the Origin. (You can use the Numeric panel if you wish...)
5. Drop the box tool (and don't select anything.)
6. Now hit B (for bevel)
7. In the "Top" viewport, use your mouse and (Bevel) Shift 2m (offset 0m)
8. Now, right-drag and (Bevel) Shift 500mm (offset 0m)
9. Now, right-drag and (Bevel) Shift 250mm (offset 0m)
10. ...Shift 100mm (offset 0m)

For me, it seems to crash my Radeon 8500 setup during step 7 or 8 while dragging. (Does not crash my nVidia setup...)

I'm not sure what steps are important: Do the viewports need to be set to "Quad"? It is only the "Top" viewport? It is only with "Wireframe Shade"? Is it the dragging process or can this be simulated with an L-Script?

mlinde
09-23-2003, 08:36 AM
So I'm using my theory that "the universe revolves around making my life difficult" to solve the graphics card issue. I've submitted a request for the nVidia GeForce 4 Ti card for my Mac, so within two weeks of it's arrival ATi and an nVidia reseller should announce Quadro and Fire cards for the Mac. That puts the announcements around mid-October. If memory serves, that coincides with the likely release of 10.3, so it's all there for you. You're welcome ;)

Ade
09-23-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by zander
I think I found a way to crash Modeler (at least it's worked for me three times so far...) Could some other people try to verify this?

1. Open Modeler.
2. Make sure viewports are set to the standard "Quad" setup.
3. Set the shader for the "Top" viewport to "Wireframe Shade". And set the shader for the "Perspective" viewport to "Wireframe Shade".
4. Make a Box, 1m x 1m x 1m, and centered on the Origin. (You can use the Numeric panel if you wish...)
5. Drop the box tool (and don't select anything.)
6. Now hit B (for bevel)
7. In the "Top" viewport, use your mouse and (Bevel) Shift 2m (offset 0m)
8. Now, right-drag and (Bevel) Shift 500mm (offset 0m)
9. Now, right-drag and (Bevel) Shift 250mm (offset 0m)
10. ...Shift 100mm (offset 0m)

For me, it seems to crash my Radeon 8500 setup during step 7 or 8 while dragging. (Does not crash my nVidia setup...)

I'm not sure what steps are important: Do the viewports need to be set to "Quad"? It is only the "Top" viewport? It is only with "Wireframe Shade"? Is it the dragging process or can this be simulated with an L-Script?



UNBELIEVABLE!
It does crash modeller first try!
Just bevel the **** outta it and youll crash...Damn crap!

tumblemonster
09-23-2003, 09:50 AM
Under what system version are you generating this crash?

-tm

Ade
09-23-2003, 09:51 AM
10.2.8
DP1.25 1.75 ram LW 7.5c
ATI9000

turbo
09-23-2003, 10:45 AM
hmmmm.... i'll try it with 10.2.8 today

Ade
09-23-2003, 12:08 PM
Mike at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/
has put the problem on front page in a front to help us.

Go check it out and provide more info where i idnt add it.

Adrian is me..

Ge4-ce
09-23-2003, 12:19 PM
Ok.. I beveled this object like what? 13 times? And was still able to turn it around!

Maybe they just fixed the bug for powerbooks... :p

Look what I could turn around...

tumblemonster
09-23-2003, 12:24 PM
Maybe they just fixed the bug for powerbooks...

Tha would be nice, since I just ordered a new 15inch, but it seems unlikely. Maybe you got lucky?

-tm

Ge4-ce
09-23-2003, 12:28 PM
Yeah.. I'll probably will run into this bug soon.. Luck is not my second name..

If I could change the grafix in my Powerbook!! Right on!! But unfortunate.. It can't be done.. right?

policarpo
09-23-2003, 12:29 PM
Also, try this:

1. Open Modeler.
2. Model however you see fit in Wireframe shaded mode
3. Model for 10 minutes or so if it doesn't crash
4. Quit
5. Reopen modeler and follow steps 2 and 3 above.
6. Quit
7. Reopen modeler and see how long it takes to crash.

Things appear to run fine in modeler for awhile at times, but this open, quit, open, quit, open seems to force the OpenGL bug to catch up with itself. :(

Ade
09-23-2003, 12:37 PM
I find that while in wireframe in perspective view, if you bevel a few times a box using the control, apple drag bevel method you will crash the system 100%. I think wireframe has something to do with it.

turbo
09-23-2003, 12:40 PM
I just tried making an object like yours and beveled it and rotated it multiple times with no crash.

THEN I opened a simple lowpoly chairlift, rotated it in perspective view, wireframe shade in 10.2.8 and presto! Same old crash!!!!

DP G4 500
ATI Radeon 8500 Mac edition
1024 RAM
10.2.8
LW 7.5

Still the same in 10.2.8

CRASH!!! freeze up whole system!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Ade
09-23-2003, 12:43 PM
Rotate it in wireframe then let us know what happens, also when u create the bevels use the control, command bevel drag method...

Remember be in quad views and all wireframe.

Ge4-ce
09-23-2003, 01:06 PM
beveled all in many ways.. Even tried a dared boolean.. rotated and zoomed like hell.. Nothing happens!!

I working on a face right now.. for over an hour.. no crash yet!

turbo
09-23-2003, 01:15 PM
work in wireframe shade/quad view/perspective

Ge4-ce
09-23-2003, 01:18 PM
Yep,.. did that as well!! I know it's not fair.. :D but it just won't crash!!! Maybe I should sue them for not being fair!!

pat-lek
09-23-2003, 01:19 PM
Same that Ge4-ce, i believe that the bug is gone away...
I have trying the modeler 2 hours this afternoon, under 10,28; without any problem...

(I have a G4 bipro; 2 x 1,25 Ghz; Ati Radeon 9000, 1,5 go of ram, and now 10,28)

Ge4-ce
09-23-2003, 01:26 PM
Someone here suggested to dump your preferences from lightwave! I must say that I haven't used modeler since it crashed once under 10.2.6..

Maybe,.. ok it's just a thought, but maybe your preference file is corrupt in some way or another.. And mine isn't since I did not use modeler anymore.

I don't know ofcourse.. could be just luck! but I don't believe in luck

zander
09-23-2003, 01:43 PM
Hi all,

Looks like we're making some noise on the boards, that's great!

It appears that some people have been successful reproducing the crash using the steps I posted earlier. I've attached a screenshot of what the "object" should look like if you follow the instructions (and don't crash...) :)

I've been trying to reproduce the bug using only L-Script, but I haven't been successful yet. Here's the script:

main
{
makebox(-.5, .5, 1);
bevel(0,2);
bevel(0,.5);
bevel(0,.25);
bevel(0,.1);
}

This makes a box and then bevels it 4 times. This works (oddly enough) and doesn't crash Modeler. I was even able to rotate it and bevel it again...

However, if I try to make the object by hand, I crash every time. I think it's due to overlapping polygons on the same plane... This mostly (or maybe on happens?) in "Wireframe Shade" mode.

zander
09-23-2003, 03:15 PM
I just upgraded to 10.2.8 and I'm still crashing, so I can verify that the upgrade does not fix it. Or at least, that it didn't fix it for me.

At this point, I should probably point out that Chuck *did* mentioned (in an earlier post) that ATI was working on the issue.

It would be great if we could get some kind of progress report from someone in the know (hint, hint...) :)

silvergun
09-23-2003, 03:18 PM
i have a 8500 with 10.2.8 and it still crashes

turbo
09-23-2003, 03:27 PM
btw.. it has nothing to do with lightwave prefs.. i have dumped them many times with no difference.


It is the ATI driver. Believe it and get over the idea of it being anything else.

again.. here is a copy of my last email from ATI

-------

From: "ATI Customer Service Canada" <[email protected]>
Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:42:35 PM America/Vancouver
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: ATI Technical Assistance
Reply-To: [email protected]

Dear Teri Thom,

Thank you for contacting ATI Customer Service Canada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email has been assigned:
TicketGUID:{51C094DF-AEFF-42AC-A2FC-863AEC45369B}

Please include the above identifier in all future correspondence
relating to this ticket. Note: The TicketGUID identifier must appear
in the message body, not in the subject line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding FSAA issue:

We are investigating the issue and right now there is no solution.


Regards,

Syed Hasan
Customer Service Canada
ATI Technologies, Inc.
http://www.ati.com

obiwan
09-23-2003, 03:29 PM
I've just been on the Apple Store to have a look at the G5 configurations, and I've noticed that you can buy a G5 1.6Ghz or 1.8Ghz model with an NVidea GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB card, but you can't choose this card with the Dual 2Ghz model! - What's that all about?

turbo
09-23-2003, 03:36 PM
its crap, thats what it is! I have a DP G5 2 on order and it seems I have to pay for both cards if I want the nvidia. :( :mad:

Johnny
09-23-2003, 03:37 PM
I don't know what it's about, but I tried like heck to persuade them to give me an nVidia card with my Dual 2.

I explained that I'd talked to Tech support who said it would work fine, but was told that there was 'no way' the system would allow it.

I even spoke to a supervisor who gave me the same.

they just ain't a-gonna do it no way no how no why.

which puts the monkey on our back to solve a problem we didn't create.

grrrr!

J

turbo
09-23-2003, 03:49 PM
How many more days are we gonna wait for Slash Dot?

The injustice of it all makes my blood boil.

I'm about to purchase my 4th Apple computer. The one I'm getting with display and ram is gonna cost me another 8,000$ CDN on top of the 7,000$ for the last one..

ATI on Slash Dot..
Then Apple.

Or should we do consumer reports first?

Or should we cancel our G5 orders? (till they fess up its just politics and business decisions screwing us.)

Ade
09-23-2003, 10:05 PM
If we post news on enough boards apple will eventually get busy tryiong to stop the bad press, if anyone has a g5 with this problem let us know, that would be bad press for apples 3d endevours..

next stop- macnn.com

js33
09-23-2003, 10:57 PM
It must be a backroom deal with ATI giving Apple a special deal on their cards. Also I hear the 5200 FX which is the new low end nVidia card is no faster for LW than a 4200 Ti. The only advantage of it, at least on Windows, is the DX9 compatibility. For Mac users with only OpenGL it probably has no advantage for LW over the 4200-4600 cards. Now if you could get a 5900 Ultra you might see some speed advantage.

Cheers,
JS

Jimzip
09-23-2003, 11:44 PM
I just rang Apple Australia, and the operator said (after I had enquired about changing my GPU) that the current cards shipping with the G4's and G5's are the only ones available because they are the only ones that have been 'tested' in those computers.
He also said that other cards would potentially work, but that I'd have to go to ATi and NVidia and 'find out'.
So if that helps in any way.

Also, one last thing to note, is that the GeForce 4 Ti 128MB is still $1056.. (That's in Aussie dollars. That's : $715.50 US dollars apparently. But I haven't looked researched US pricing yet. Ah, good old Mac Calculator. ;) )
Jimzip :D

js33
09-24-2003, 12:13 AM
Jimzip,

You can't be serious? $715 US. for a GeForce 4 Ti 128MB on the Mac??????????????? That card only costs about $100 US for the PC. Probably less now that the FX cards are out.

Cheers,
JS

Triple G
09-24-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by js33
Jimzip,

You can't be serious? $715 US. for a GeForce 4 Ti 128MB on the Mac??????????????? That card only costs about $100 US for the PC. Probably less now that the FX cards are out.

Cheers,
JS

Conversion rates/international shipping are a factor, apparently. The same card can be had for around $385-$400 USD when bought online through a place such as Small Dog or Macmall. (Which is still a lot of money, if you ask me. Especially, as js33 said, considering the same card can be had for less than half that for a PC). :rolleyes:

Ade
09-24-2003, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Jimzip
I just rang Apple Australia, and the operator said (after I had enquired about changing my GPU) that the current cards shipping with the G4's and G5's are the only ones available because they are the only ones that have been 'tested' in those computers.
He also said that other cards would potentially work, but that I'd have to go to ATi and NVidia and 'find out'.
So if that helps in any way.

Also, one last thing to note, is that the GeForce 4 Ti 128MB is still $1056.. (That's in Aussie dollars. That's : $715.50 US dollars apparently. But I haven't looked researched US pricing yet. Ah, good old Mac Calculator. ;) )
Jimzip :D

Jimzip nono, that is old price list i have been quoted around $500 for Nvidia Ti 128 card. In melbourne www.power.com.au great shop, hard to find a good reseller that doesnt rip u off!
If u are gonna order I can tell Frank the best salesman there to expect some lightwavers coming..PM me when u decide on...

pat-lek
09-24-2003, 03:11 AM
I just freeze the modeler (and all the mac , in the same time) under 10,28... The bug is still here...

erfff... I want my modeler back!!!!

subnet
09-24-2003, 06:28 PM
ATI is working with Newtek and Apple:

http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/4267.html

Johnny
09-24-2003, 06:30 PM
excellent. but why doesn't it mention the cards shipping with the G5s?

too few people using them yet??

J

turbo
09-24-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by subnet
ATI is working with Newtek and Apple:

http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/4267.html WOW!!!!!
finally! acknowlegement!
*Turbo bows... *accepts the flowers and praise for her unrelenting persistence .. :cool:

... but seriously folks.. about time for the cure, wouldn't you say? :rolleyes:

js33
09-24-2003, 06:41 PM
The site says the issue has been resolved but doesn't offer any details?

Cheers,
JS

turbo
09-24-2003, 06:44 PM
no it doesn't.. its a button to push when it IS resolved... :p

turbo
09-24-2003, 06:46 PM
But look at this!!!

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/

hope at last is on the horizon!!

Would I be pushing it if I said...
"We DID it, krabbits! We DID it!!" :D

policarpo
09-24-2003, 06:48 PM
Woo Hoo....modeling is fun again.

:D

wapangy
09-24-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by turbo
But look at this!!!

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/
:D

I thought it effected more than the RADEON 8500, RADEON 9000 and MOBILITY RADEON 9000?

turbo
09-24-2003, 08:34 PM
i'm not sure of that.. but i do know that it affects more than just LW 7.5.c as reported on ATI's site, .. it also crashes LW 7.5.

tumblemonster
09-24-2003, 09:24 PM
I think we really need to give a big thank you to Turbo and Ade. They both put in a lot of effort trying to get this resolved. The fix will probably be ready by the time I get my new powerbook!! Whoo hoooo!!

-tm

Ade
09-24-2003, 09:50 PM
Its a team effort, Policarpo, Chuck and the rest have given their time too.

tumblemonster
09-24-2003, 09:54 PM
Well then, drinks are on me!

Whoo HOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Soon I can update and install Final Cut Pro 4 on my desktop!

-tm

Ade
09-24-2003, 10:13 PM
Mike got a reply from ATI at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/
-------------------------------------
" The specific problem was identified by our engineers and it affects RADEON 8500, RADEON 9000 and MOBILITY RADEON 9000. It has been fixed for both Mac OS X 10.2.6 and 10.2.8 release streams and is undergoing additional testing. This fix will make its way onto the ATI.COM web site as a "hotfix" - it will be a single component installation affecting only the above-mentioned chips. Only people affected by this specific problem need to download the update. Another news posting will come when the file is ready for the web. "
----------------------------------------------



Go take a look!
Nice to see the mac community in work!
the crowd has spoken (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/ATI_Lightwave3D_OSX.html#storytop)

Triple G
09-24-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
Woo Hoo....modeling is fun again.

:D

Did I miss something? Is there a patch currently available? I didn't see any on ATI's site...I thought it just said that they're working on it...

Ade
09-24-2003, 10:48 PM
It will be posted soon on the ATI site under HOTFIXES...



"[MAC] Lightwavers...UNITE"!

toby
09-25-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by turbo
WOW!!!!!
finally! acknowlegement!
*Turbo bows... *accepts the flowers and praise for her unrelenting persistence .. :cool:

You kicked a** Turbo! Congratulations. I especially liked that fire you set on the apple forum.

I've been watching this thread, appalled at ATI's behaviour, not posting because I use an nvidia - I'm glad you guys' suffering is ( finally!:rolleyes: ) near the end. Congrats to you all

Johnny
09-25-2003, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by tumblemonster
I think we really need to give a big thank you to Turbo and Ade. They both put in a lot of effort trying to get this resolved. The fix will probably be ready by the time I get my new powerbook!! Whoo hoooo!!
-tm

I'll drink to that! and thanks to Chuck and Policarpo, too!

J

policarpo
09-25-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by Triple G
Did I miss something? Is there a patch currently available? I didn't see any on ATI's site...I thought it just said that they're working on it...

;)

dmg3d
09-25-2003, 08:08 AM
Thanks Turbo, Ade and to everyone that posted comments and complaints on all the sites...

You guys have my vote for Governor of California!

So what's next?

-Dave

silvergun
09-25-2003, 08:54 AM
Let's hope we don't run into the same problem come panther.

policarpo
09-25-2003, 08:55 AM
Nah...i don't think this will be the case now that our agenda is on their radar.

I think we're going to be okay for a good while now. :)

Ge4-ce
09-25-2003, 09:21 AM
Thank you Ade, Turbo and all other People that helped getting this problem solved!..

Indeed.. This kind of teamwork is only available in a Mac-community...!!!! We're just used to things that simply work I guess.. And when something does not work, We are pissed!!

WAY TO GO !!MACOMMUNITY!!

turbo
09-25-2003, 10:14 AM
Yup! Teamwork rules!
Customer satisfaction is our right.

I don't hear the fat lady singing yet and some of us have paid for substitute cards as well as losing months of production so its neither over nor has anyone been compensated.

But its good to see public acknowledgement and responsibility for the problem. Lets hope the follow through is timely.

*crosses fingers... :cool: :rolleyes: :p

pat-lek
09-25-2003, 10:47 AM
Great thanks to you, Turbo, Ade Policardo, and all the others, for the noise made around this bug, and all the others whose trying to help us...

I have been very glad to see the Ati' s web page!

policarpo
09-25-2003, 10:54 AM
And many thanks to NewTek for working with ATI and Apple to squash the bug!

:D

tumblemonster
09-25-2003, 11:19 AM
I read on xlr8 that someone wrote in and said that there isn't a problem on the new G4 powerbook with the 9600 card. Can someone confirm this?

-tm

policarpo
09-25-2003, 11:22 AM
the 9600 appears to run LightWave just fine. I tested it out at work yesterday on my bosses shiny new 1.25Ghz PowerBook. :)

neoklassik
09-25-2003, 02:17 PM
Hmm.. wonder when they will post the patch? Wait. Wait. Wait.- that's been my life lately. :)

Thanks to Policarpo, Turbo, Triple G and everyone else who has been pushing this!

silvergun
09-25-2003, 03:13 PM
I've actually been waiting for this update more than the dual G5s. I think those of us who constantly annoyed ATI and Apple with repeated emails of this problem really got to them and they finally decided to pull their finger out. Woo hoo

astro-sanchez
09-28-2003, 10:44 AM
hey thanks everyone for being a big part
in getting things on the right track

i am using 10.1.5 but 10.2.6 is waiting
on my other disk so hopefully not to much longer

good stuff

Triple G
09-28-2003, 09:16 PM
10.1.5? Ouch...to me, pre-Jaguar OSX felt like trying to run through waist-deep water...

Oh well, whatever allows you to get your work done...:)

Ade
09-29-2003, 09:43 AM
I have it set so ATI emails me when theres an update-
http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/4267.html

Wish theyd hurry up its been like 8 months now.

turbo
09-29-2003, 05:43 PM
I'm dyin here..

Gonna jump out the window soon.. but we're on the main floor..

*rips hair out.. *cries...

:( :( :( :( :(

turbo
09-29-2003, 05:51 PM
Quotes from my programmer/partner/sweetie:

"This problem is not something that should take more than a week to solve"

"I'm ready to donate $3000 to a class action lawsuit, is anyone else in?"

......

or.. before we go there.. what say we start a petition? we'll host it.

...- some things to put on the petition are:
- would you ever buy another ATI product again?
- are you up for cancelling your G5 order?

... stuff like this we could easily put on slash dot..

SIGH.. there is no excuse. :mad: :( :mad:

Triple G
09-29-2003, 06:25 PM
Turbo, forgive me if I come across as being rude, but I don't understand why you don't just downgrade your OS to 10.2.4 for the time being?

If you have apps like FCP that need to run in 10.2.6 or higher, why not just backup your important data, format and partition your drive so that you can boot into both 10.2.4 and 10.2.6 whenever you need to? I know that it should be up to ATI and not the end-user to come up with a solution to this problem...I know downgrading your OS is not an optimal solution, but it is a temporary one and at least you'd be able to get some work done without so much aggravation...

tumblemonster
09-29-2003, 09:12 PM
I think the answer to that is: We shouldn't have to. We all understand that problems like this occur. What's frustrating everyone is this particular problem has been denied or ignored for 8 months, and now they've finally decided to fix it, so we're elated, but anxious for the fix to be released.

Hence, our (absolutely justified) venting.

-tm

js33
09-29-2003, 09:18 PM
The sad part is they probably could have fixed it in 15 minutes when they first learned of the problem.

Cheers,
JS

Ade
09-29-2003, 09:27 PM
maybe ijn their defence theyre testing it, they dont want to release a driver that still has the bug, they would look so stupid.

turbo
09-29-2003, 10:26 PM
i'm hoping the ebay nvidia card shows up quick.
i'll test that. if its fine i'll use it till my G5 comes, then test that from there..

if it doesn't work i'll downgrade. but i agree i shouldn't have to.

bottom line is.. i just want to work.

Triple G
09-29-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by tumblemonster
I think the answer to that is: We shouldn't have to. We all understand that problems like this occur. What's frustrating everyone is this particular problem has been denied or ignored for 8 months, and now they've finally decided to fix it, so we're elated, but anxious for the fix to be released.

Hence, our (absolutely justified) venting.

-tm

Believe me, I understand...I've been putting up with the same problem. But I haven't been dealing with it every day for 8 months. That would be foolish. After a week or so of trying to figure out what the problem was, I found a (temporary) solution, did it, and continued to get my work done. When and if ATI comes up with a concrete solution, will I be glad? Of course. But I'm not going to allow them to render my entire workstation useless in the meantime. I'm not saying that the venting isn't justified...but there comes a point when you've got to suck it up and do what you've got to do in order to get work done.

turbo
09-30-2003, 12:55 AM
....thats easy to say.

I have enough things to do that my time is never wasted. My work station is alway in use for one aspect of my project or another.

Beamtracer
09-30-2003, 04:07 AM
Triple G... I don't think it's productive to dismiss how the problem is affecting other people.

If you can downgrade or use 2 operating systems, that's fine. Some other Mac users with different graphics cards aren't affected at all.

Personally, I'm running an older OS because of this, and no other reason. It's certainly not a good situation, and it'll impact some more than others, depending on their workflow. The issue is serious enough that it is probably discouraging Lightwave users from coming to the Mac.

I haven't posted very much on this thread, but I've been watching it closely and think that Turbo has done a great work in getting a response from ATI. I'm hoping very much that a solution can be found soon.

claw
09-30-2003, 04:53 AM
I think ATI should have some sort of a control panel for their cards, so you can configure them better. I know it's like that on PC. I heard there where some problems with ATI and LW on PC before. But with just some tweaking with the preferences it all ended well. We mac users should have those features too!

Ade
09-30-2003, 07:31 AM
ARRRGH...
Turbo if you start a law suite lemme know!
I just forgot I was in 10.2.8 and froze and lost an important progressio on my model.
ATI you blow, seriously stick to your gay gaming cards and stay out of the PRO market.

turbo
09-30-2003, 10:25 AM
My fear is that their little announcement on their web page is just a token something something. ... After all it was months ago in an email they told me they were working on a new driver but had no release date. It could be months more when it shouldn't.

Its also damn inconvenient to boot into different drives when your work flow consists of jumping back and forth between different programs.. so that creations can be tested thoroughly.

Switching back and forth between drives is not a practical solution neither really is going backwards. We know how customized setups take time. Also there is a known usb issue with 10.2.3 on some macs.

Its the really creative/sculpting type modeling that crashes me every time and its damn deflating.

So... I'm gonna try downgrading my OS X on one of my drives. had a link to 10.2.3 here but gonna test first..

Ade
09-30-2003, 10:38 AM
U know what guys, lets just smash our ATI cards up, mail em to apple and ATI and buy some nvidia cards..I cant be bothered waiting for a company that has a rubbish track record with drivers on pc and mac side!

Thier baby gamers cards and thats all theyll be. And Apple can think twice about being taken serious in 3d if they OEM ATI cards.

turbo
09-30-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Ade
U know what guys, lets just smash our ATI cards up, mail em to apple and ATI and buy some nvidia cards.!...

heheh.. i'm about ready.. :p

-- just went through the process of doin a clean install on my panther test drive.. installed OS X then upgraded to jaguar..

... about to move on to the next stage..

when i'm done and its all tested i'll post a link to one of our servers (fast download) with the necessary apple updates to get the rest of the way back to 10.2.3 :cool:

turbo
09-30-2003, 04:09 PM
10.2.1 (http://shadow.krabbit.com/varmint/MacOSXUpdate10.2.1.dmg.bin)
10.2.2 (http://shadow.krabbit.com/varmint/MacOSXUpdate10.2.2.dmg.bin)
10.2.3 (http://shadow.krabbit.com/varmint/MacOSXUpdate10.2.3.dmg.bin)

Its not all that easy or fast to find these on Apple's site and when you do download its pretty slow.. :rolleyes:
..so thanks to Varmint (programmer/partner/sweetie) here are some fast downloads from one of our servers. :cool:

Now to reinstall LW on that 10.2.3 drive..
... :mad: ... bah.. the inconvenience of it all :rolleyes:

I reserve the right to whine.. :D

Ade
10-01-2003, 09:38 AM
I have frankly had enough!
I now have to downgrade again just to get some functionality. i simply cannot afford to do this anymore. What an embarresment ATI has done for lightwave...

pat-lek
10-01-2003, 01:14 PM
I have send an e-mail to the Ati' s devellopers, ask them to don' t let us in the dark; and post here when they think bring us an update...

Wait and see... hope they bring us a response...

(Always sorry for my english))

turbo
10-01-2003, 03:28 PM
Now that I have finally given up and downgraded to 10.2.3 and had a trouble free day character modeling.. I get an email from ATI...

heheh.. they'll prolly post the fix right after my nvidia card arrives... :p

========================


From: "ATI Customer Service Canada" <[email protected]>
Date: Wed Oct 1, 2003 2:12:38 PM America/Vancouver
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: ATI Technical Assistance
Reply-To: [email protected]

Dear Teri Thom,

Thank you for contacting ATI Customer Service Canada.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your email has been assigned:
TicketGUID:{66DC66A5-9D25-11D7-A570-00508BE22D04}

Please include the above identifier in all future correspondence
relating to this ticket. Note: The TicketGUID identifier must appear
in the message body, not in the subject line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Lightwave 7.5 crashes in 10.2.5 and higher:

We are expecting the Hotfix to be posted from Infobase 4267 very soon. During the last few days, we have been undergoing QA testing for the hotfix. Please keep in mind, the Hotfix will need to be reloaded upon the installation of 10.2.8 (when it becomes available).

Regards,

Matthew Kreiner
Customer Service Canada
ATI Technologies, Inc.
http://www.ati.com

pat-lek
10-02-2003, 12:26 PM
YES!!!!!!

http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/4267.html

Yes!, Yes! thanks to all!!!

(Don't worry about me, turbo, to post this great news (before you), i know this patch is due for a great part to your works, (not mine).

But i have been so glad to see the ati's web page!!!

Great thanks!!!

turbo
10-02-2003, 12:49 PM
Just tested it.. no luck.
It doesn't work.
Now when I try to open a file in Modeler I just get the beachball of death.

Had to boot back into my 10.2.3 drive.

pat-lek
10-02-2003, 12:54 PM
Erff... (Ergh....)
I have not tested...

policarpo
10-02-2003, 12:57 PM
works great on my TiBook with the 9000 card and 10.2.8

Thanks ATI!!

no crashes no matter how many times i try to reproduce my tried and true crash the OS sequence in 7.5c.


are you using 7.5c Turbo?

turbo
10-02-2003, 01:12 PM
hmmm... no, mebbe i should try .c

turbo
10-02-2003, 01:27 PM
ke.. just updated to 7.5.c and it doesn't work.
.. still the beachball of death.

so ati's hotfix DOES NOT WORK with the following configuration:

DP G4 500
ATI Radeon 8500 Mac Edition
OS X 10.2.8
LW 7.5 or LW 7.5.c

Scott_NewTek
10-02-2003, 01:59 PM
Turbo, post your object file (compressed) here if you can and I'll try to break my machine. I have an 8500 card, G4 733.

"One button to rule them all!"

Ge4-ce
10-02-2003, 04:06 PM
Well,.. Noticed that I recently was all happy because of the 10.2.8 update? I thought my problem was solved... And it was!! Until this morning, when models start to get multilayerd and more complex! BANG! I thought I went nuts!!

Now I'm Really happy Because NOW it is resolved!! It works great until now!! Thanks everyone again, Thanks Scott! Thanx ATI and all the Forum guys (and girls, turbo!) for resolving this issue!!

now next time.. we gonna do this in 2 days in stead of 6 months ;-) Ok OK I'm sorry.. just was a little bit sarcastic.. Glad it's over that's all :D

TwistedMelon
10-02-2003, 04:45 PM
Disclaimer: I work for ATI. I don't speak for ATI.

I have emailed Turbo offering to help get to the bottom of his specific problem, but thought I would also post a message here with some possible advice.

Apple recalled 10.2.8. The ATI HotFix installs on 10.2.5, 10.2.6 and 10.2.8 (not 10.2.7), but until Apple re-releases the OS update, people should down-grade back to 10.2.6 if they are having any unexplained issues (that did not occur previously):

http://www.thexlab.com/faqs/downgrade1028.html

Other than that (for now), does anyone else have any negative experience running with the new ATI HotFix for LightWave? Anything that can be attributed to the ATI drivers/card that is not a problem running an earlier version of components such as those with 10.2.3. Keeping in mind to use the same version of LightWave 3D of course.

Bruno

Ade
10-02-2003, 05:33 PM
I guess we have to upgrade again to 10.2.6, I guess it has to be done to finally rid this bug..
Majority of us are downgraded to 10.2.3. Anything after 10.2.5 was bad.
have read on www.xlr8yourmac.com this hotfix didnt fix anything.


What is your job at ATI?
Thanks for coming on our boards, as u can see we are extremely pissed.

tumblemonster
10-02-2003, 08:52 PM
I just got home. I upgraded to 10.2.6 last night because I absolutely had to use FCP today. I'm going to install the fix under 10.2.6 and see what happens.

-tm

turbo
10-02-2003, 08:59 PM
I reinstalled Lightwave again after applying the hotfix and it now works, so far, I am happy to say.

I'll keep ya posted if something happens.

Thanks to TwistedMelon for posting here and emailing me as well. Definitely professional.

tumblemonster
10-02-2003, 09:12 PM
I have installed the fix and have gone through about 10 minutes of testing everything I can think of that ever caused the freeze. I'm happy to say that I haven't frozen once. This seems to have done the trick. Before the fix I could generate this freeze very consistently, and now I cannot at all. Obviously, you all will be the first to hear if something goes wrong!!

Again, thanks to everyone who helped get this done. I also appreicate Twisted Melon stopping by to lend a hand.

I was going to hold this in reserve, but: WHOOO HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


-tm

Ade
10-02-2003, 10:16 PM
I think ill wait a day, some have posted the bug is still there..

TwistedMelon
10-15-2003, 12:35 PM
So I hope this bug is now gone for everyone.

The report on XLR8YourMac was Turbo's first experience where the bug still seemed to be present. Don't know why that was, but as mentioned, a re-install of LightWave fixed it.

Now that Apple has re-released 10.2.8, it is safe to run. After running system update you will need to apply the ATI RADEON LightWave HotFix again. The 10.2.8 update would have over-written it if you had installed it with 10.2.6.

This should cover everyone regardless of what OS they're using. The update installs for 10.2.5, 10.2.6 and 10.2.8 - the three general OS releases available for all Macs. Future OS releases as well as ATI Web Updates, will already have this bug addressed, so there will be no need for the HotFix in the future.

I have asked Turbo to contact me directly should any other ATI-related bugs creep up again.

And to answer another question, I work for ATI's Apple Platform Software team. I'm a Software Project Coordinator. Hard to say what that means sometime. I do some software and product design and about a million other things. A jack of all trades really.

Bruno

policarpo
10-15-2003, 12:40 PM
Thanks again Bruno for the effort in all of this. Looking forward to running Panther in less than a month.

Keep up the good work.

turbo
10-15-2003, 12:44 PM
Since the hotfix, Lightwave now runs smoothly with the ATI Radeon 8500 mac edition in my DP G4 with Mac OSX 10.2.8

My DP G5 arrived last nite and I'm on it as we speak. It has the stock 64 Meg ATI card still in it and there is no evidence of the Modeler bug yet.
This computer is so cool its freaky.

I had Compusmart special order a 256 Meg nVidia card but it is not the right one. ATI and nVidia cards. (http://shadow.krabbit.com/turbo/vidcards.jpg)

The sales guy and Apple guy there are figuring out stuff for me now.. I'll keep y'all posted. :)

mlinde
10-15-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by turbo
I had Compusmart special order a 256 Meg nVidia card but it is not the right one. ATI and nVidia cards. (http://shadow.krabbit.com/turbo/vidcards.jpg)

The sales guy and Apple guy there are figuring out stuff for me now.. I'll keep y'all posted. :)
I'm not your sales guy or Apple guy, but there isn't a 256 MB card for the Mac from nVidia. The two (or three) nVidia cards available for the Mac all come from Apple:
1) 32/64 MB GeForce 4MX (older 4x PCI)
2) 64 MB GeForce FX 5200
3) 128 MB GeForce 4 Titanium

All of these cards are available, in different ways. You can only get a GeForce 4MX via eBay or as a replacement part (ordered through an authorized repair center). You can only get an FX 5200 stock in a G5 or as a replacement part (same way as above). You can only get the GeForce 4 Ti from an Apple authorized reseller, as the Apple Graphics Kit upgrade. PNY has been falsely advertising one of their GeForce cards as Mac compatible, but when put in ANY Mac it has not worked.

turbo
10-15-2003, 01:06 PM
This is an apple card.. just not the right one.. I'll post a pic in a sec.

edit#1
... hmm.. mebbe i'll wait.
It does appear to have an apple display and a vga thing.. but not apple cinema display.
In any event.. its not right.. we'll see what they say, I guess..

edit#2
... just spoke to my compusmart guy...
Turns out he never got any of my info from his head office.. and got me the wrong thing.
So.. he's gonna take this one back and see about ordering me the upgrade kit from Apple... :p

... must.. have... more.. VRAM!! :D :cool: :D

TwistedMelon
10-15-2003, 02:26 PM
Hey Turbo.

The only upgrade you can put into your G5 as far as graphics go would be the 128MB RADEON 9800 Pro at this time. Either a retail 9800 Pro with VGA and DVI-I or the Apple version with DVI-I and ADC. The ATI retail card is AGP 2.0 universal (works in any G4 or G5). The Apple version is AGP 3.0 Pro - it ONLY works in the G5.

There is no 256MB card for the G5 right now from any vendor. And there certainly isn't any faster graphics card available for any Mac than the ATI RADEON 9800.

The only cards that work in the G5 at all are ATI Retail cards supporting 1.5v AGP 2.0 (except RADEON 9000) and Apple's RADEON 9800 128MB, RADEON 9600 64MB and GeForce 5200 64MB. The 5200 is so much slower than the RADEON 9600 that it's simply a waste of slot/time/money if you ask me.

The NV card in the photo posted is most definitely not an Apple OEM card. It has VGA, TV-Out and DVI. Apple has never released a card with TV-Out. And their NV cards are all DVI+ADC.

Hope the info helps.

Bruno

turbo
10-15-2003, 02:35 PM
128.. NOT enough.. I want more! :P :D

256, 256 <chants>..

Thanks for the info, Bruno.. my guy said he was gonna order directly from Apple for me. Just to box up the nVidia card and bring it back, no prob...

But .. I understand that some of the lower end G5's ARE shipping with nVidia cards.. What's that about?

(8 months of no Modeler and ATI ignoring us was just too painful to warrant ever buying from them again, I'm afraid. I lost alot of time and money)

TwistedMelon
10-15-2003, 02:54 PM
The lower end G5 comes with the very low end GeForce 5200. For $50 anyone can upgrade to the RADEON 9600. For $350 you get a RADEON 9800 Pro.

That's all Apple offers as BTO options. Older G4 Apple cards will simply not fit in the G5. Their ADC connector will collide with the edge of the AGP Pro connector on the G5.

I do apologise for the wait you had to go through with the Modeler issue, but I assure you our development staff jumped on the problem with the utmost urgency and put the HotFix out as fast as possible after the issue had been escalated. I wish it had been escalated sooner, but in all honesty we just didn't know about it. Even our contacts at NewTek hadn't mentioned it as far as I know.

I jumped into this forum to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

Take the chance with ATI again and I assure you that you will not be sorry. I've already given you the green light to contact me if you ever feel you've found an issue with ATI driver software.

If anyone else on the forum wants to contact me, they can do so at my offline email address: [email protected] I check it every few days.

If you still can't give ATI cards another shot right now, that's ok too. But I'll still put all my efforts into trying to make sure we have the ultimate product with the best features AND, the perfect level of support for LightWave. :)

Bruno

turbo
10-15-2003, 03:17 PM
you have been wonderful, Bruno.. but..

We provided all the correct technical information to ATI and Apple 8 months ago. For whatever reason, they chose not to take it seriously.

This resulted in a very time consuming campaign to get the attention of the media as neither parties would respond.

Customer satisfaction should guarantee that a person can return an unsatisfactory product. There was simply no available option to the consumer.

Still many of us have lost a great deal of production time with no compensation and no apology. That simple is not satisfactory. At the very least there is nothing to inspire me to buy ATI again.

True, Apple should step up to the plate and give us more choices.

You have said you work for ATI and do not speak for them. As I said, you have been great and the entire Lightwave community thanks you. The issue has been resolved. But.. faith has not been restored.. at least not yet. Too much has been lost and our choices are yet too limited.. If ATI is simply all I can get right now.. I opt to wait it out.

Now if ATI were to step forward and publicly take responsibility for this terrible faux pas and to at the very least, apologize to the community.. well maybe.. I'd consider it.. *sigh..

You'd have to understand the pain of crashing every time you rotate a model.. day after day after day.. It's really deflating and frankly, heartbreaking.. So much time has been lost..

For now, I am going to enjoy my DP G5 with its 1.5 gigs of ram.. (till more comes in), its stock ATI card and me brand spankin new Apple Cinema Display...
Unwrapping me DP G5 :) (http://shadow.krabbit.com/turbo/albums/g5/Pictures.html)



I simply cannot take the chance at this time, and would prefer to wait it out.