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View Full Version : What are Kray's limitations?



creativecontrol
11-05-2006, 10:36 PM
I'm seriously looking at trying Kray because I do a lot of GI lighting. I know there are threads all over talking about Kray but perhaps someone can distill it a bit for me. The renders and times look great. What I really need to know are what are the limitations? What does it NOT support?

Does it support hypervoxels? How about nodes (new shaders)? Does it support all algorithmic textures? I need to know exactly what it doesn't support so I can make a decision. I use hypervoxels in almost everything I do so it's quite important to me.

Also, I'd like to hear any direct comparison between Kray and Maxwell that anyone could offer. Thanks for your help!:D

Jure
11-06-2006, 01:44 AM
Kray allready supports loads of LW features even though SDK is not the best one out there.
So most of the surfacing options are supported including procedurals, gradients etc. Most of the motion options should work also because Kray basicly exports what LW displays in openGL.
Also Kray is costantly being improved to work more tightly with LW. But there are certain limitations that all external renderers can't overcome because of lack of SDK support. Like neverko said this includes shaders and hypervoxels and also image and pixel filters.
Nodes are not yet supported but are on the "to-do" list for feature versions. The same goes for some of the new features introduced with LW9: custom cameras and APS subdivison.

Hopefully Newtek will open their SDK enough to allow 3rd party developers integrate their plugins as much as possible.

If you need to know about any other specific feature weather it's supported or not just ask...

tyrot
11-06-2006, 02:18 AM
dear jure

i forgot to ask. KRAY 1.7 will support 8.5 right?

BEST

silverlw
11-06-2006, 02:36 AM
For the moment kray works from 7.5 up to lw9. Subpatch/catmull-clark only works in lw9 ofcourse.

Jure
11-06-2006, 05:06 AM
Yes 1.7 will be backward compatible with LW.

tyrot
11-06-2006, 05:28 AM
dear jure

Baking in KRAY 1.7, how does it work? Does it write on an Image file with different setting just like in microwave?

Means do i need Microwave for Baking purposes after getting KRAY or KRAY will bake the render on my UV mapped Rooms?

BEST

Pavlov
11-06-2006, 07:41 AM
dear jure
Baking in KRAY 1.7, how does it work? Does it write on an Image file with different setting just like in microwave?

Means do i need Microwave for Baking purposes after getting KRAY or KRAY will bake the render on my UV mapped Rooms?
BEST

Kray will do it, no need for Microwave. Kray bakes even better since it allows you to exclude raytraced light and bake just diffuse, which is the best way to bake. After this you'll apply baked maps on your model, and raytrace ditect lights to get better shadows.
One of the biggest limitations of LW's and Microwave's bakes is they cannot exclude direct lights (i.e. Sun), so you have to bake raytraced shadows too. This means you have necessarily to bake at very high resolutions, or you'll get bad artifacts (aliases) on crisp (baked) shadows.
In Kray you can bake at very low resolutions since you bake only diffuse, bounced light, so the overall process is much faster.

Bye
Paolo

bryphi7
11-06-2006, 08:18 AM
Kray will do it, no need for Microwave. Kray bakes even better since it allows you to exclude raytraced light and bake just diffuse, which is the best way to bake. After this you'll apply baked maps on your model, and raytrace ditect lights to get better shadows.
One of the biggest limitations of LW's and Microwave's bakes is they cannot exclude direct lights (i.e. Sun), so you have to bake raytraced shadows too. This means you have necessarily to bake at very high resolutions, or you'll get bad artifacts (aliases) on crisp (baked) shadows.
In Kray you can bake at very low resolutions since you bake only diffuse, bounced light, so the overall process is much faster.

Bye
Paolo
It is possible to do this with nodes in LW, but you will be waiting for a long time just to bake one image that is useable...

creativecontrol
11-06-2006, 08:22 AM
Thanks guys, that helps.

Has anyone come accross a quick and easy way to composite hypervoxels onto a rendered image. Sometimes I render as a Targa with alpha channel and use Photoshop to composite it but the results aren't quite right. If I could solve this, Kray would be good for me.

creativecontrol
11-06-2006, 08:24 AM
If you need to know about any other specific feature weather it's supported or not just ask...

Does it support motion blur? What types of AA are available?

tyrot
11-06-2006, 08:52 AM
dear paolo

Can i also bake shadows as well, on a UV texture? How many separate channels KRAY has for baking, Diffuse, Color.. what else

BEST

Pavlov
11-06-2006, 09:20 AM
MB will be implemented in 1.7 and refined in next updates.
Kray has several AA types, from grid to quasi random to random, with a very deep control - much more than current LW's control.
Tyrot you can bake what you want, you CAN exclude direct lighting.
Dont know if channels will be implemented before 1.7, you can exclude direct lighting and textures from baking right now anyway.

Paolo

Captain Obvious
11-06-2006, 12:21 PM
Kray will do it, no need for Microwave. Kray bakes even better since it allows you to exclude raytraced light and bake just diffuse, which is the best way to bake. After this you'll apply baked maps on your model, and raytrace ditect lights to get better shadows.
One of the biggest limitations of LW's and Microwave's bakes is they cannot exclude direct lights (i.e. Sun), so you have to bake raytraced shadows too. This means you have necessarily to bake at very high resolutions, or you'll get bad artifacts (aliases) on crisp (baked) shadows.
In Kray you can bake at very low resolutions since you bake only diffuse, bounced light, so the overall process is much faster.

Bye
Paolo
There's a fairly easy work-around for that:

Render twice. Once with GI, and once without. Then subtract the plain one from the GI one, and you get... *drumroll* just the GI!

Pavlov
11-06-2006, 04:01 PM
Thanks, but this method works partially because in this operation there's alway some luminous pixel left in AA zone.
It works, but i wouldnt rely on this for production.

Paolo

Jure
11-07-2006, 01:25 AM
Thanks guys, that helps.

Has anyone come accross a quick and easy way to composite hypervoxels onto a rendered image. Sometimes I render as a Targa with alpha channel and use Photoshop to composite it but the results aren't quite right. If I could solve this, Kray would be good for me.

What exactly is your problem with compsiting Hypervoxels?

creativecontrol
11-07-2006, 07:08 AM
What exactly is your problem with compsiting Hypervoxels?

Maybe I'm not doing it right but when I bring it into photoshop, the transparency isn't right. The hypervoxels are too transparent. I'm not sure why. I've gotten around this by duplicating the layer about 3 or 4 times and combining that. Then it looks about right but it's never quite the same as what lightwave does internally.

Maybe I'm missing something obvious.

Jure
11-09-2006, 12:27 AM
Oh? Hmm I don't use hypervoxels much but I'm have no idea why this would happen. Try rendering with fader alpha mode maybe that will help.