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MacGregg
10-30-2006, 06:34 PM
Doesn't anyone do LScripts around hear? The LScript fourm is near empty!

Is there something wrong with LScripting... doesn't it work? Is there someplace I can find out what works and what doesn't in LScript?

I used the lsed() LScript edit application and selected the Generic templete, saved it and then ran it in modeler I get an error on the line "@script generic" in a dialog:
"Script type 'generic' differs from architecture"

I am using LW9 is there an update to LScript for it?

I am able to run other LScripts that seem to work OK, but I guess few are Generic type.

Thanks,
Gregg

Silkrooster
10-31-2006, 12:15 AM
There are quite a few programming guru's around here. Too many to name them all. Just too bad I am not one of them, otherwise I would help ya. Hang in there someone will help.
Silk

Castius
10-31-2006, 12:20 AM
Only the template LScript (Modeler) works in modeler. All the rest are for different types of Layout plugins.

Sensei
10-31-2006, 02:46 AM
Generic sounds like Layout Generic plug-in class, that can be run only in Layout..

Dodgy
10-31-2006, 03:08 AM
I'll put my hand up and say I know lscript and you can find all my plugins (in source form) on my web site, as well as the lscript reference docs with the notes folded in on there too.

Welcome aboard. Feel free to ask me any questions and I'll try to answer them. Best to sign up to the Lscript mailing list as I think that gets more action than round here.

http://lists.newtek.com/mailman/listinfo/lscript

gjjackson
10-31-2006, 06:51 AM
Did Newtek mention at some time they were going to revamp the scripting language or did that fall by the wayside.

MacGregg
10-31-2006, 09:20 AM
You are probably right Castius & Sensei, I thought that the point of the Generic type was it worked with both Modeler and Layout, but re-reading the manual it just says it is the most general and LIKE a Modeler lscript.

The error message "Script type 'generic' differs from architecture" is NOT very clear if this is the problem thou... it could be "Script type not compatible with Modeler" would be more descriptive. ;->

Dodgy, thanks for the heads up on the mailing list I just signed up!!! That's what I was looking for. I read somewhere here that LScript is buggy and NOT being kept up to date, is this true? LScript seems so cool and powerful I hope NT is not letting it go unsupported or updated. You sure have been busy with LScript thanks for leaving all you code in source, will be very helpful!!!

Thanks!

Dodgy
10-31-2006, 11:20 AM
Well it is a little buggy, but still workable. There have been little updates with 9, but I'm guessing they're holding back on big updates till the sdk is in better shape. Hopefully my scripts will give you an idea of what you can do, and the docs will fill you in on things I haven't touched yet. Maestro was written in lscript, and it's quite powerful.

MacGregg
12-27-2006, 03:20 PM
I have now tried maybe 4 times since October to sign up for the LScript list at "http://lists.newtek.com/mailman/listinfo/lscript"... I get the confirmation code and I respond to that and then I get the email saying it is sending my request to the list administrator and... nothing... 4 times... I have emailed the administrators listed on the site and I get no response.

I have tried to login to the archives as a test to see if it knows me but it says it doesn't recognize me.... and I have never received anything from the list.

What do I have to do?

Is there really a LScript list?

Help!
MacGregg

Dodgy
12-27-2006, 04:10 PM
There is, but there's not been much traffic on it for a while..

GregMalick
12-27-2006, 06:26 PM
This is like deja-vu.

When I first started writing LScripts that "architecture" message really threw me. Check out this ancient post (my first I thimk) ...http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18487


As I recall, the PDF LScript User Manual was a life saver.
Followed by the provided sample code and finally the reference Manual.
I hate the HTML since it seems slow & harder to search.

There are also some really great guys hanging around with advice - although less lately.


Oh yeah, LScript Commander is great too. :thumbsup: But it only works in Layout as of this version.

RedBull
12-28-2006, 01:17 AM
Once apon a time, Lscript was released independantly
of Lightwaves core, as Bob Hood the creator was very
active in it's development.

It was common for Bob to confirm a bug, and fix it
and release a new version of Lscipt in between LW releases.
Some years back this changed and i believe Bob, was ordered
to combine his Lscript releases at the same time as NT released
LW.

Bob was moved up the programming team, when the others left.
The Lightwave outpost was closed, and Lscript has been ignored,
abandon and forgotten ever since.

Although it was outsourced for the LW8 release.
I don't believe much work was done over LW9, on Lscript.

The Lscript and C SDK has been left stagnant for a long
time, when LW's abiliites were increased, Lscript
and the C SDK need to be aligned to also reflect change
and updates, this never happend.

LScommander should of made it to Modeler by now.
Instead if you've watched places like Flay,
you would see the diminishing numbers of scripts
and plugins that get released on a daily basis.

If you strangle the life of something long enough
it dies.... Go figure!.

LSIDE and LSED are buggy, have been for years
and have dozens of bugs.

(lets hope Modo gets an SDK soon)

MacGregg
12-28-2006, 03:14 PM
[...] I don't believe much work was done over LW9, on Lscript.

The Lscript and C SDK has been left stagnant for a long
time, when LW's abilities were increased, Lscript
and the C SDK need to be aligned to also reflect change
and updates, this never happened. [...]

Well, that is enormously disappointing. I know ppl continue to create plugins ... FPrime... and I do here all the hopes for an improved SDK for it, but I thought the SDK was up to date with all but the very latest changes to LW. So, that is not true... and LScript is even worse... HOW SAD! How can any developer who wants to build a company around making Plugins for LW do this without a commitment from NT to keep the SDK current? What is LW DEAD. If NT doesn't intend to build LW back to a GREAT 3d app I wish they would just DRIVE A STAKE THRU ITS :cursin: HEART AND LET IT DIE!!! None of this slow death... waisting my hope, time and money!

RedBull, is really as bad as you say. Can nothing useful be made with the SDK and LScript now? I hope you are just being pessimistic... this was a major reason for me to pick LW way back when.

Is Modo a replacement for LW yet? The little bit I have seen on their web site is very cool. God I am tired of being pitched!

Thanks,
MacGregg

Castius
12-28-2006, 03:49 PM
LW SDK and Lscript are capable developing environments. It has plenty of downfalls but most do. It might not be developing as quickly as everyone would like it to as well. But it has been mentioned in LW development road-map for 9.x. So I'm sure we will see at least some improvements along the way.

It's just going to take a little time. In the mean time allot can be done in it's current state. In my opinion.


Now in terms of community that can be more difficult. There are a few good people on this forum that can help. There is also IRC channels. #LW3D on freenode network is a good place to hang out.

Dodgy
12-28-2006, 05:27 PM
I have to agree with castius, while Lscript is more limited than the sdk, a lot can still be done with it. Just check out my web page for examples. I personally wouldn't use it for deformations or things like image filters or shaders, where the script has to be evaluated a lot of times per frame, but for animation and other single frame uses, like set up, it's quite useful for that.

faulknermano
12-29-2006, 12:13 AM
Although it was outsourced for the LW8 release.
I don't believe much work was done over LW9, on Lscript.


also, what is not being mentioned, btw, is how many lscript commands (particularly over to the modeler architecture) was broken when v9 came along.

alifx
12-29-2006, 04:35 AM
I can wait until LW 9.5 or 10 because I believe what NT guys say but they are very slow in doing that...

believe me if they hired some of the programming guru's here like Sensi, Dodgy ....and other guys like Polas and that guy who made "PLG" uv,IK plugins , they will solve their problems and our problems

there is still a hope :boogiedow

Karmacop
12-29-2006, 08:14 AM
Sorry, I'm going to have to reply to this ;)


It was common for Bob to confirm a bug, and fix it
and release a new version of Lscipt in between LW releases.
Some years back this changed and i believe Bob, was ordered
to combine his Lscript releases at the same time as NT released
LW.
Lscript started getting updated at the same time as Lightwave because Lscript was taken into the core. I see this as a good thing :)


Although it was outsourced for the LW8 release.
I don't believe much work was done over LW9, on Lscript.
That's right, sad but true. I'm hoping for a new scripting core to replace lscript, but possible they are working on more important things.



The Lscript and C SDK has been left stagnant for a long
time, when LW's abiliites were increased, Lscript
and the C SDK need to be aligned to also reflect change
and updates, this never happend.
I've seen several updates to LW's SDK, nodes, cameras, not to mention new data available in old data structures.



LScommander should of made it to Modeler by now.
Instead if you've watched places like Flay,
you would see the diminishing numbers of scripts
and plugins that get released on a daily basis.
LScommander in Modeler would require a huge change within Lightwave, so we wont be getting it right away, but it's something Lightwave will get as the core is rewritten. I've also decided to attach a plugin I wrote the other day, because I know there's still people writing plugins :)

RedBull
12-29-2006, 02:21 PM
Sorry, I'm going to have to reply to this ;)

Lscript started getting updated at the same time as Lightwave because Lscript was taken into the core. I see this as a good thing :)


I don't if you were there to see how active Lscript was, compared to how active it is now, i would certaintly not agree.


I've seen several updates to LW's SDK, nodes, cameras, not to mention new data available in old data structures.

Although many trickle updates have come, Obviously you haven't seen
developers take LW9 to any higher places, Fprime could not move forward,
because many of the things needed were not added at the same time as the feature implenatation. However i was mainly referring to Lscript in this post.
How about updating the Shaders with access to tanget space, Nope!

Lscript has has not been updated to reflect and keep in touch with LW9's major changes, can i use Nodes from LScript (okay i'd do it in C anyway) but you get the point... LSED and LSIDE, have had the exact same bugs since LW7.x.... Lscript has been neglected, not to mention the overwhelming oversights with Modeler in particular with LW9 lscripts, as Lernie mentions.


LScommander in Modeler would require a huge change within Lightwave, so we wont be getting it right away, but it's something Lightwave will get as the core is rewritten. I've also decided to attach a plugin I wrote the other day, because I know there's still people writing plugins :)

Cool!, As for LScommander, it's what Modeler needed at version 8.0, it doesn't matter any more, Modo is using Python and everything is accessible, XSI has five scripting languages, (2 more in XSI6)..

It's no longer comparable to the competition for scripting, 3rd party development, i would actually be prepared to say LW has the worse available scripting language now. Maxscript, MEL, Python and other packages, are just light years ahead.
Anyway, don't use LW much these days, without Fprime, LW9 is fairly unusable for myself. So i'm glad Fprime3 is coming, i might be able to use some of thoe features finally.

But XSI6 is already here, and when Modo20x get's an SDK for proper C,
i can't see myself personally waiting for LW12's LSCommander.... or was that LW15.... 25, 37.... (insert random number here)
And i also have written many LScripts and C plugins over the years.. :)

Anyway LScript is obviously a concern for some others in this thread, if not for yourself.

Karmacop
12-29-2006, 05:13 PM
I don't if you were there to see how active Lscript was, compared to how active it is now, I would certaintly not agree.
Everyone complains one something in Lightwave is a plugin instead of part of the core. They made this part of the core and now you're complaining. They just can't win.


Although many trickle updates have come, Obviously you haven't seen developers take LW9 to any higher places, Fprime could not move forward, because many of the things needed were not added at the same time as the feature implenatation.LW9 has had more SDK updates than any other version, so even if it's a trickle it's better than the old dev team ever did. Writing an SDK isn't an easy job, and I'm sure the dev team believed they gave sufficient access to nodal at first. What the dev team think 3rd parties need isn't always what 3rd parties want, so it will take some time and nicely worded emails to get SDK features added ;)


Lscript has been neglected, not to mention the overwhelming oversights with Modeler in particular with LW9 lscripts, as Lernie mentions.Yes it has been neglected, But Newtek has their priorities and you seem to be in the belief that they should be able to fix all of their problems right now. Scripting in Lightwave needs help, but features to make it competitive are more important right now.


But XSI6 is already here, and when Modo20x get's an SDK for proper C,
i can't see myself personally waiting for LW12's LSCommander.... or was that LW15.... 25, 37.... (insert random number here)
Luxology have been promising an SDK for how long? ;)

Karmacop
12-29-2006, 06:48 PM
When you say tangent space, what do you mean exactly? From the camera? From UV maps?

RedBull
12-29-2006, 07:05 PM
Everyone complains one something in Lightwave is a plugin instead of part of the core. They made this part of the core and now you're complaining. They just can't win.

I have no problem LW being plugin based, as long as the core is flexible enough for your scripting language and C-SDK to take advantage of core changes and updates, LScript nor many other parts of LW achieve this.

In fact i wish NT would of updated individual .p files, in between major releases, i think this is what makes the modular approach a good one.

[quote]LW9 has had more SDK updates than any other version, so even if it's a trickle it's better than the old dev team ever did.

LW6.0 was the biggest change to LW's architecture by a long margin, not LW9

[quote]Writing an SDK isn't an easy job, and I'm sure the dev team believed they gave sufficient access to nodal at first. What the dev team think 3rd parties need isn't always what 3rd parties want, so it will take some time and nicely worded emails to get SDK features added ;)

Have a look at XSI/Houdini/Max SDK's and see how they've had this native support for years already before LW9 or Nodal, if they were looking at good implentations, these types of issues would not of been overlooked.

We've already had this discussion, where you told me to wait for LW9 for specific changes to this issues we are discussing, and you was wrong!
I won't quote you, but you know you could. ;)

Time isn't something i'm prepared to give LW, anymore.. :)
And personally i moved to the CSDK for most things sometime back,
so Lscript doesn't have much value to myself anymore. It's more what the value it gives to the LW community at large that i worry about.


Yes it has been neglected, But Newtek has their priorities and you seem to be in the belief that they should be able to fix all of their problems right now. Scripting in Lightwave needs help, but features to make it competitive are more important right now.

I'm glad you wisely chose, "you seem to be in belief"
Where did i say NT should fix any of these things ever?

Quite the opposite, i think LW is so far behind architecture wise i'd like a whole new LW, before they bothered to half-assedely (i love making up words) improve the scripting language. The core is the issue for LW, and i'm not sure it can be fixed.

I was just telling the OP how i saw the LScript thing, i did not chant for any changes at all, honestly at this stage it's way to far behind to be fixed.

It was a huge mistake to ignore the SDK and Lscript, because of the follow on effect it gives to the community, this is far more important than any single feature NT could ever implement in any release.

Lscript is the gift that keeps on giving, Flay was updated daily for LW6/7 with a slew of new scripts from people giving LW features and benefits it could not manage out of the box. As Bob for example added a feature to bevel, 10 bevel scripts that made use of the new class would arrive days later...
This happens still, but at a much slower pace over 8/9 cycle.
Because it just stopped growing. Having releases of Lscript/Lscripts
in between releases kept the community inspired to the next LW release.


Luxology have been promising an SDK for how long? ;)

Totally agree but thanks to myself and people like Lightwolf we have asked Lux for specific basics of an SDK, and i think they will get there.
It will be far more accessible from the get go! Unfortunately Modo did promise an SDK from 103, and have still not delivered...
And it does give chills through the spine with thoughts of "Oh God here we go again"

I suspect Lux don't want an SDK earlier than they have too.

But to show how important the SDK and scripting languages are for myself.
As soon as the Modo SDK is released, LW will be relegated to backup patrol.
Just not as many reasons to wait for LW, as there once was.

Why, because Modo will have a gift that keeps on giving!
I think XSI's SDK is underused, but FND will see more and more third party tools, as will Modo, C4D's scripting language is also excellent and powerful.

Why give people a glass a milk, when you can build a cow?
LScript was a cow, that running low on milk :)

It's a shame cause i have fond memories of the LScript days as i'm sure
faulknermano also does, and i think Lscript was/is one of the easiest scripting languages to learn and use. I felt like i was using something in it's infancy that was growing... These days, I haven't heard a peep out of Bob for many years..... Sigh!

Anyway i would think that it's too late for Lscript revival, Python is a much better move for many reasons, but for NT supporting a new Python implentation, as well as legacy support for Lscripts and future use is very hard.
That will probally teach them not ignore the one they've got/had. ;)

Anyway no alarm bells, LW still has a scripting language that sometimes works, and infrequently get's worked on when it does, that sounds typically NT. But when FND offers 6 languages, up to date docs, constant updates
and add's latest core changes into their SDK similtaniously.

Anyway i have always wanted an Lscommander for Modeler, and LSIDE to be integrated into a viewport. But LSIDE has not been updated since 7.x
despite it's overwhelming buggyness.

XSI now allows scripting in the viewports, and Modo has a built in Lscommander for all of it's tools. Hey prestro, LW becomes obselete for myself, or at least used for it's specific advantages or as a last reserve.
But i don't expect LW to compete with the others anymore in areas like Scripting?

Scripting was big!!! MEL took the ball and ran with it, these days MetaMill is coming out with it's own shader language...... In comparison "LW is like so 1990"

RedBull
12-29-2006, 07:08 PM
When you say tangent space, what do you mean exactly? From the camera? From UV maps?

If you have a look at Denis's posts of the reliefmapping node,
you will see some of the problems Denis has faced with that plugin.
TB also had the similar problems on the Layer relief map plugin.

LW doesn't offer direct access to Normal/Tangent space.
2months after the release, we find already new limitations.

This is just a simple example, i could give dozens of others but i won't...
Because this is now like way of topic, and quite irrellevant...
As i already know!

Karmacop
12-29-2006, 07:26 PM
How can Newtek add specific features if you don't tell them you need them? :)

Sensei
12-29-2006, 08:27 PM
If you have a look at Denis's posts of the reliefmapping node,
you will see some of the problems Denis has faced with that plugin.
TB also had the similar problems on the Layer relief map plugin.

LW doesn't offer direct access to Normal/Tangent space.
2months after the release, we find already new limitations.

This is just a simple example, i could give dozens of others but i won't...
Because this is now like way of topic, and quite irrellevant...
As i already know!

I don't think so LW even calculates this internally, because for what it would be used in normal LW renderer anyway? There is no sense in calculating not used things.. It would be even wasting CPU power..

It's easy to calculate it in your own code..
http://www.3dkingdoms.com/weekly/weekly.php?a=37
and everything what is needed is given by node access & shader access - positions and UVs of vertices..