View Full Version : HUB is a piece of crap

10-29-2006, 07:41 PM
Ok after struggling with numerous LW9 crashes I've realized the obvious - the hub is a piece of crap.

Anyone else having an issue with modeler constantly crashing - or not starting up at all? I've tried all the obvious fixes but no luck. Lw9 has been one BIG bug fest since the day I installed it - and I'm at the point of throwing in the towel so excuse my attitude ;)

10-29-2006, 07:41 PM
The HUB has issues. Disable it till they get resolved and you should be good to go.

10-29-2006, 07:56 PM
It's bizarre that half the users have he11ish problems with 9 and the other half don't. I've found it at least as stable as 8.5, even with the Hub running... did you delete all your configs as others have suggested?

10-29-2006, 08:01 PM
It's bizarre that half the users have he11ish problems with 9 and the other half don't. I've found it at least as stable as 8.5, even with the Hub running... did you delete all your configs as others have suggested?

Hub is not working on some computers. In fact, it works on all of the computers in our office except for my dual zeon. Which sucks. But hopefully it will be resolved soon. Someone ran a test for me Friday and supposedly it syncs up fine with version 8.5. So I may be running 9 for layout and 8.5 for modeler for the time being.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-29-2006, 08:14 PM
I second Proton's suggestion. My experience with Lightwave improved vastly once I disabled the HUB. It is not as convenient, but it is MUCH more stable.

10-29-2006, 08:41 PM
I have the odd crash here and there and some where hub doesn't sync lightwave and modeller even when only one of each program is open but never to this extent. Did you try reinstalling?? isn't LW9 still kind of in :beta: ????

10-29-2006, 11:22 PM
Hub is crap. Yes.

I hate the surprises it offers...


10-30-2006, 12:31 AM
I shutdown my Zone Alarm firewall before running LW9 because the hub uses a lot of TCP/IP connections. I explained in a previous thread that Windows XP Service Pack 2 only allows a limited number of TCP/IP connections per second before it shutdowns your TCP/IP connections for serveral minutes. When modeler starts up it sometimes creates too many TIME_WAIT connections per second so Windows XP thinks it is a virus or trojan horse trying to access the Internet. I believe that by default it is twenty connections per second, but I could be wrong, before the TCP/IP protocol is shutdown for several minutes. This is a hit or miss problem. You can use a program called TCPview from SysInternals to see this for yourself.

The attachement, "Before_Launching_Modeler.txt", shows my normal TCP/IP connections of about four TCP connections.

Now when I open modeler up, (see attachement "After_Launching_Modeler.txt"), I get 54 TCP TIMEWAIT sessions.

When I switch to layout, (See attachment "Switching_To_Layout.txt"), I get 161 TIME_WAIT sessions.

After closing both the Modeler and Layout, it takes four minutes before the number of TCP connections to return to four.

As I also stated in another thread, the hub is no longer needed. Windows XP has some execellent interprocess API's that allow programs to exchange data without using the TCP/IP protocol.

I also disabled the Data Execution Prevention (DEP) on my Windows XP Service Pack 2 and once I find a stable video display driver, I stick to it and don't upgrade. I am currently using version 84.26 Quadro FX 4000 driver evethough the newest version is 91.36. LW9 doesn't work too weel with the new driver.

References: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/sp2mempr.mspx
(Search for the line "Limited number of simultaneous incomplete outbound TCP connection attempts")
Also read:

This doesn't really fix anything, but I believe this explains why so many people are having problems.


10-30-2006, 02:38 AM
As I also stated in another thread, the hub is no longer needed. Windows XP has some execellent interprocess API's that allow programs to exchange data without using the TCP/IP protocol.

HUB uses TCP/IP instead of operating system dependant options because LW also runs on MacOS..

10-30-2006, 04:37 AM
Funny thing, the hub + modeler combo wasnt working for me about a week ago, but just yesterday, it has started allowing me to open it (with hub) without any problems. Dont you love computers?

10-30-2006, 05:36 AM

wel always need to wait for something

10-30-2006, 06:40 AM
What makes me so frustrated with LW9 is that one day it works fine and the next it's unusable.

If I could recreate the problem I'd feel better about it :grumpy: - It's like a random glitch.

10-30-2006, 06:51 AM
What makes me so frustrated with LW9 is that one day it works fine and the next it's unusable.

Switching hub off by -0 argument in short-cut doesn't help you?

10-30-2006, 06:56 AM
That's not really a fix, though. It suffices for a quiet life, I guess, in much the same way that cutting off your leg avoids the future risk of you stubbing your toe on something, or that smashing out all your teeth avoids any future risk of toothache (or dentists).

10-30-2006, 07:16 AM
Without it I could not use LW9 at all.. So it's -0 or LW8.5, I choosed -0.. some prefer giving up on LW9 until LW9.x.. Hub worked for a month or so after initial install, and I was wondering what people are talking about with hub issue, but one nice day later it started to me too.. Maybe it worked so long fine because Windows XP SP2 firewall is the first thing that I disable after OS install, and installing Sygate Personal Firewall, which I like the most..

10-30-2006, 11:08 AM
Switching it off did 'fix' the issue - or one of them. I'm just annoyed that I need to do this in order to run modeler - I actually need the functionality of the HUB at the moment and I'm left with yet another workaround.

DISAPPOINTED! :thumbsdow

10-30-2006, 11:11 AM
The Hub is generally working fine for me. But I get the sense that sometimes when I'm updating / editing objects in Modeler, there's a 'bottleneck' of information which freezes Layout.

There seem to be less problems with the Hub using Lightwave's own subdivision surfaces rather than Catmull-Clark.

10-30-2006, 11:14 AM
I like Protons response too: "The HUB has issues."

No kidding :) That made me chuckle last night.

10-30-2006, 12:22 PM
are you guys using Firewalls ? might want to check this issue.

11-01-2006, 12:33 AM
ok,i found a resolution for the hub issue.

infact it's provided by someone in this forum.

just delete lwhubxx.xx file in your home directory after you close all of the instance of lw (modeler,layout, hub -make sure all of them are closed).

then restart layout WITHOUT -0 switch , close it, close hub.

attribute your lwhubxx.xxx file with "READ ONLY" !

now all the stuff work like before , i say before mean when using 7.x .

11-02-2006, 12:17 PM
the hub uses TCP/IP?!!!????!!?!?!
thats INSANE. and you're telling me that it does this because its a cross platform application????? who made THAT decision?

its like trying to use a gun to screw in a lightbulb.

NEWTEK! LISTEN! Both Windows and Mac os X have Much better support for the kinds of communication you need in Lightwave, than what you've cobbled together. The best (and quickest) fix for the hub is to give it cement shoes, put a bullet in it, and take it for a long walk on a short pier. then make Platform specific Inter-application modules for Lightwave. DON'T Make an external managing application... just add the functionality to Modeler and to Lightwave. In Mac os X, you have 5 or 6 options for different kinds of inter-application communication, I'm sure the same applies to Windows. Any ONE of them on each platform will be vastly superior, and easier to implement than the Hub. Just crack a book and do some research.

cmon, the hub has NEVER worked properly. lets face it, it never will. You're mucking around with technologies that just make no sense for what you need to accomplish.

11-02-2006, 01:25 PM
The old development team - mainly because Modeler and Layout were developed as entirely separate applications by Stuart Ferguson and Allen Hastings. They apparently didn't want to link them closely together. So...the hub has been around since version 6 - some time in 1999. I wouldn't hold its existence or mode of operation against the new development team just yet and I'm fairly sure that plans are afoot to deal with the Modeler-Layout data handling in a more appropriate way.

Originally, it was intended to allow external apps to hook into LW as well. None ever have and I'm not even sure the interaction method was ever documented.

Nonetheless, the fact that hub causes so many problems and seemingly appears to be the root cause for Modeler issues in 9.0 makes the situation more pressing. I doubt we'll see major change in 9.2, although hopefully fixes to the hub itself will be available. Substantial change will probably be in the next update after that, if we're lucky.

11-03-2006, 07:38 PM
Yep, hub=suckiness.

Since 6.x, my command line has always read something like this:

"E:\Program Files\NewTek\LightWave 3D 9\Programs\modeler.exe" -0

11-03-2006, 07:59 PM
I hate the Hub as well, it just adds an extra layer of annoyance when when Lightwave crashes. It's functionality should be built into the main APPS so at least they can crash together.

11-03-2006, 11:42 PM
Suck isn't the word to describe the HUB. Wouldn't that be nice if NT made an invisible integration between Layout and Modeler - elimating the HUB all together. That sounds like a 9.2 improvement to me.

Darth Mole
11-04-2006, 01:51 AM
I really think it's about time they just glued the darn things together. C4D works fine this way - it just has a different layout style when modelling/animation/UVing etc. Most users are running multi-gigabytes of RAM these days so it's not an issue like it was back in the Amiga days. (Besides the two apps together are a whopping 3MB! The code itself has a very small footprint.)

Any system that tries to communicate between two apps is, in my thinking, that bit more susceptible to errors. Get rid of it and make LightWave one solid application. By all means keep the look and feel and workflow of Modeller and Layout as separate workspaces (flick between them using F12 as usual), but why they need to be two apps is, frankly, beyond me. And surely this would assist in bringing the functionality of Modeller into Layout if it was all one program?

11-04-2006, 02:17 AM
Yeah I'd like to see it done as one APP.

11-14-2006, 03:36 AM
When I first started using Lightwave about six months ago, LW8.5, I at first thought the modeler and layout work flow was extremely quick when compared to Maya and Max. I actually finished a project! What spoiled the enjoyment was the constant crashing of either the modeler or the layout module. I stuck in there, and then there was LW9. Still it crashes. I have been waiting and waiting and waiting for NT to fix the hub problem and still they continue to ignore this issue. Type in the key work "Crash" in the discussion forum's search engine an you get not only a lot of topics devoted to this subject, but each subject has an large number of posts of unhappy LW users. I tried every fix in every post. Some worked for a while and then the crashes reappeared and the same fix no longer worked.

I decided to try one more fix which involved buying a new Dell Precision Workstation 690 with two Dual Core Intel® Xeon® Processor 5060 3.20GHz, 4 GB ECC ram, 2 SATA2 160 GB drives in a RAID 0 configuration, and a Quadro FX4500 video card. This is not a top of the line workstation as these components have been available for about a year or more. I was looking more for stability than speed.

I bought this system just for LW; it has no anti-virus, firewall is disabled, ALL unnecessary window XP components have been removed. The system has the bare minimum amount of software installed. I did this to minimize any compatibility issues with LW9. I am running windows XP 32 bit OS because the plug-ins that I use do not have 64 bit versions for LW 9.

Guess what? LW9 crashed just as much as it did on my previous system. I have invested a lot of time in LW 9 and if NT doesn't fix the stability issues by version 9.2, I have no alternative but to switch to a more stable CG program. In every review that I have read on LW9, the stability issues are always brought up. In fact LW9 crashed a lot in Dan Ablan's "LightWave v9 Signature Courseware!" DVD course (An excellent beginner's course). Also, Larry Shultz stresses the fact that you need to save often in his "LightWave 3D 9 Rigging: The Definitive Guide" (Also an excellent beginner's course).

So this wordy bottom line is if NT doesn't fix these problems soon, then they are going to keep loosing more and more of their loyal customers. I'm a hobbyist, and I can't image someone using LW9 for serious production work; It’s a gutsy move to do so.

Sorry about the bitching, but I love the LW9 environment, but lately its been a love-hate relationship that I can no longer endure.


11-14-2006, 04:19 AM
Running with the hub was, as far as I was aware, the major contributor to all problems with 9.0 to-date. Without the hub running, I have yet to see any stability issues with 9.0 Modeler. Layout in 9.0 has been robust with or without hub, by contrast.

I suspect that much of what has been noted for 9.1 (now 9.2) was necessary to start pulling the apps much closer together. The Modeler framework in Layout also hints at this being a general aim of the 9.x series. To be realistic, though, I doubt you'll see combined apps as soon as 9.3....a realistic target would perhaps be 9.5, with progress during the intervening 9.x periods.

Throwing in the towel regarding LW use is a personal decision. 9.0 restored my faith in LW overall, but LW during 2007 is going to have a lot to prove. Mid-end of that year, I hope to be able to continue to hold LW's dev team in high regard. The quality of the Mac UB build of LW will be a major factor.

11-14-2006, 01:28 PM
Sadly, my woes with Lightwave 9 are practically limitless! I've seen this discussion countless times, but since the Hub is so nessesary to my projects, I haven't had the heart to try. Guess what! I'm one of those people that has bad luck with or without the Hub! On any given week my preferences get thrown out due to insurmountable and untraceable issues (no, I'm not using ANY extra plugins), and not only will I have 50% repeatable crashes (half the time I can't render without crashing if the model includes images, unless I've gone through the Image Editor and clicked on each one beforhand), but I have the weirdest crap happening. See attached GIF.

Maybe I'm just especially frustrated today, but things have always been this unstable for me. Always. On my computer at home, I can't even open the scene editor, and yes, I've completely wiped everything Lightwave multiple times. At least here at work I can view my object hierarchy, though I wince every time I try... I feel like Pavlov's dog!

(The two frame animation below was taken earlier today, at which point Lightwave not only wanted to save an ".out" file, but was unable to quit. Though after a Force Quit, my scene file somehow survived without complete corruption.)

11-14-2006, 02:06 PM
Ah. Mac. Always been a little shaky on Mac, has LW. The Universal Binary build has me hoping that we'll see Mac LW reach 1st tier in terms of reliability. I understand it's due to appear with 9.2.

Mac hardware/software isn't, yet, my area of awareness. What's SIOUX, though, and is there any additional software running in common on both machines that could be causing trouble?

The other issue, which has me worried as a soon to be MacBook Pro owner (tomorrow!), is that ATI drivers tend to be crap. Or at least LW doesn't like them, even under Windows. For some time, I suspect this MBP will be dual-booting just so I can do some LW work and until Mac UB versions of plugins surface.

As for preferences, I keep hammering the point home that in no way, on no day, is trashing preferences an acceptable 'solution' for LW rolling over and sticking its legs in the air. This is 2006 and this isn't shareware. It's about time we got some robustness in the config file handlers so that they don't screw up so badly. That said, since I disabled the hub, everything has been smooth running (other breakage notwithstanding)....under Windows.

I would seriously encourage you to use and abuse [email protected] for any and all reproducible issues. Fire in content that causes blow-ups. If you join the OB, the NDA works both ways so commercial and confidential material can be fired over to them without concern.

Next time I get a config blow-up, I'm intending to fire the **** things in as well. Maybe if enough broken configs start appearing in Deuce's inbox, they will be able to locate whatever stupid bit of code is responsible, drag it out to the parking lot and put a bullet in its head.

11-14-2006, 05:06 PM
Thank you! Good advice, I've tried to keep up with support in the past but have gotten really behind lately. I haven't even submitted any bugs yet for the OB (no time to do it right... argh). It worries me that trashing my preferences (especially at home) doesn't even fix the problems, so I'm left with somewhat nebulous errors with little to go on in finding the source of the issue. I'll be doing my best to document everything I can and send it in.

Have fun with the MBP!

11-15-2006, 03:41 PM
I wonder if we all should just get a free copy of the upgrade to 9.2 due to all the instabilities in the programs. It would be nice since I originally bought 8.5 and upgraded to 9. Time will tell I guess.

11-15-2006, 10:18 PM
Newtek has always been super nice with upgrades. Judging from past experience, they should be free updates till LW10, though I could be mistaken. Anyone have confirmation on this?

11-15-2006, 11:45 PM
I wonder if we all should just get a free copy of the upgrade to 9.2 due to all the instabilities in the programs. It would be nice since I originally bought 8.5 and upgraded to 9. Time will tell I guess.

If you bought 9.0, you should already be playing with 9.2 beta.
Newtek has never charged for a point release, and you buy into a whole release, which is part of the pricing strategy. You pay for features which are still to come.
So yes, upgrades to 9.2 are free, and subsequent upgrades too, until 10.0.

I'm not a Newtek official, so I can't promise you that, but I will set my hair on fire if it won't be like this. Really.

And yeh, 9.2 hub is a lot more stable. how about that?

11-16-2006, 01:36 AM
I'm finding hub very stable.
So much so, that I open Layout and modeler together and use each other for saving. If I do something in modeler and it goes belly up (pushing too many buttons and not waiting for 1 tool to finish before using another), I just restart modeler and look in the layers dropdown and there is the model all nice and pretty, just the way I left it on the last F12.
All the texturing I've done in layout are there in modeler if Layout should go belly up.

I don't think any problems I have had is due to hub...could be wrong tho...but I still use it.

11-16-2006, 04:15 AM
So yes, upgrades to 9.2 are free, and subsequent upgrades too, until 10.0.

I'm not a Newtek official, so I can't promise you that, but I will set my hair on fire if it won't be like this. Really.

I think it's fair to say your hair is safe. :D
Newtek are top banana with their point updates and it's something other 3D companies are noticing and starting to follow suit on. Though I don't know of many that give ALL point updates for free, normally they do one or two.

Also, I'd be very surprised if we didn't see a fair few point updates as Newtek have made plain their commitment to really ramping up LWs features in this cycle.

11-17-2006, 12:08 PM
Hub works alright on my old K6 but I had to disabled anti-virus for it to work properly.