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Sensei
10-18-2006, 07:36 AM
Hi!

Somebody is interested in nodal based motion modifier?

Example usage:
- Add motion modifier
- open node editor
- change size/position/rotation of object depending on 2nd object distance, distance to camera, light, time or whatever you can imagine, with limits controlled by Min/Max vector nodes..

How much would you be willing to pay for such functionality in LightWave with unlimited ways to enhance motion?

Best Regards!

tischbein3
10-18-2006, 08:12 AM
Hi!
How much would you be willing to pay for such functionality in LightWave with unlimited ways to enhance motion?


Mhmm,
honestly I think such a plugin would be more powerfull comfortable as a master plugin, wich controls multible objects motions from within.

(I'll would do this myself, but honestly I'm sticking in something else / and even then I would prefer to wait until there is a way to hide/forbid nodes access / startup outside the wished context without hacks).

just my 2 cents on this.....

EDIT:
(But in general a good idea)

DarkLight
10-18-2006, 10:02 AM
While not using Nodal, there is already a node based motion plugin available.
http://www.nodalideas.com/amelie/

10-18-2006, 10:25 AM
http://www.naturalmotion.com/morpheme.htm

Download that video (might have to register). That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see in a node system - not just transfrom properties. For realtime/interactive stuff that is going to become really important, especially as 3d packages start incorporating more and more realtime features out of the box.

Mylenium
10-18-2006, 12:26 PM
Hi!

Somebody is interested in nodal based motion modifier?

Example usage:
- Add motion modifier
- open node editor
- change size/position/rotation of object depending on 2nd object distance, distance to camera, light, time or whatever you can imagine, with limits controlled by Min/Max vector nodes..

How much would you be willing to pay for such functionality in LightWave with unlimited ways to enhance motion?

Best Regards!

Na, it would be just another workaroundish solution not worth any money from my end. Unless someone comes up with a really usable scene wide expression system that has access to every single scene parameter, including channels, marterials, other nodes/ items etc., all efforts in that direction are in vain, regardless whether it's based on nodes, scripts or neuronal interfaces. This is a problem at the core of LW and any new plugin would only add to the long list of candidates for the trash can once those underlying problems hopefully get solved by NT themselves. So no, no good idea at all.

Mylenium

zardoz
10-18-2006, 12:55 PM
this is kind of what I asked in this thread...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57127

Sensei
10-18-2006, 01:31 PM
this is kind of what I asked in this thread...


Not really IMHO.. You wanted import data that are not yet calculated and ready..

But imagine this:
- Add Motion Modifier.
- Open Node Editor.
- Add node Sinus and connect to Multiply node by 3.14159 then result connect to Make Vector in Y axis.. Ball is jumping up and down..
- another object flies somewhere and yet another node checks whether it's close enough (f.e. Subtraction between ItemInfo World Position and ball position) and then ball is limited by bottom of this object and ground and start jumping faster and only in range between ground and top object and with time reduces jumping amplitude to 0..

All this without even touching graph editor where you would have to setup milion keys to achive the same result.. And reusable because such setup can be saved as *.nodes file..

And I have this plug-in at hand.. ;)

I watched somewhere trueSpace video where motion was controlled by nodes, and guy talked about how to make bolt that flies in the air without rotation, then when it's close enough to thread start screwing on it and stops when it's not possible to move more down..

Just to show what I am talking about here is this video:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Tests/PACh02pt2.avi

If somebody make bolt and thread, I will reproduce this video in LightWave v9.. :) Step, by step..

Mylenium
10-19-2006, 12:10 AM
I watched somewhere trueSpace video where motion was controlled by nodes, and guy talked about how to make bolt that flies in the air without rotation, then when it's close enough to thread start screwing on it and stops when it's not possible to move more down.

But you are not considering that nodes in trueSpace have a different meaning. Just like XPresso in Cinema 4D, nodes in trueSpace are representations of generic script functions and not just materials/ shaders. They are even used to get some of the workgroup functionalities and as a way to program interaction e.g. for VRML and Schockwave output. Unless Lightwave can do the same on a scene wide level, I don't see any point in what you are suggesting.

Mylenium

Sensei
10-19-2006, 12:19 AM
But you are not considering that nodes in trueSpace have a different meaning. Just like XPresso in Cinema 4D, nodes in trueSpace are representations of generic script functions and not just materials/ shaders.

LightWave nodes are not just for materials/shaders! That's just top of iceberg..



They are even used to get some of the workgroup functionalities and as a way to program interaction e.g. for VRML and Schockwave output. Unless Lightwave can do the same on a scene wide level, I don't see any point in what you are suggesting.


LightWave nodes can be used to anything that doesn't require issuing Layout commands..

For TrueMotion case nodes created by user are changing position, rotation and scalling of item where such motion modifier was applied to.

jeremyhardin
10-19-2006, 12:34 AM
I'd be interested, especially if there were the normal motion modifiers as well, only in nodal version. i.e. parent, follower, sticky, expressions, etc. Maybe even an IK node. all with data in and out. that would be brilliant.

Because honestly, i think EVERYTHING should be nodal. and if the above modifiers were to exist in the same nodal space, THEY'D ACTUALLY RESPECT/AFFECT EACH OTHER...which is more than they do in LW. You never know what's going to work with what.

ercaxus
10-19-2006, 12:42 AM
LightWave nodes are not just for materials/shaders! That's just top of iceberg..



LightWave nodes can be used to anything that doesn't require issuing Layout commands..

For TrueMotion case nodes created by user are changing position, rotation and scalling of item where such motion modifier was applied to.

LW has serious problems with motion modifiers in general. For example if items are parented to an item in a 2 IK chain hierarchy. For example a null that is supposed to follow a wrist bone's world pos does weird things sometimes. Arm + Spine = 2 IK chains. These kind of things should be extremely easy, but not at the moment.
If your system is not going to have similar restrictions and, then go for it, but someday newtek might come up with their own version (since they have the nodal now) and that wouldn't be cool.
Actually the moment they have a motion system that actually works, plugging it into the nodal should be extremely easy, and for some reason I (want to?)believe that's coming very soon.

Good luck.

ercaxus
10-19-2006, 12:43 AM
You never know what's going to work with what.
That's LW's motion system :)

Sensei
10-19-2006, 01:12 AM
I'd be interested, especially if there were the normal motion modifiers as well, only in nodal version. i.e. parent, follower, sticky, expressions, etc. Maybe even an IK node. all with data in and out. that would be brilliant.

I am sure that parenter/follower can be simulated by Item Info node with specified by you object and not only position can be copied/mixed to target item, but also rotation and scalling.. If you do little modification of data after reading them from Item Info and before feeding target outputs, you can have very nice effects indeed.. :) f.e. use sinus driven by time to add/set scalling of object, and this happening only if complete set of other circumstances are true (by using Math > Scalar > Logic)..

If you want re-parent object in fly, with smooth transition such node setup is needed (it works, just checked):
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/TrueMotion_1.png
Middle ball is smoothly rolling between 1 and 3 when I move frame slider.. Ball 1 & 3 can have any position keyframed or not, changing or not, and ball in middle will roll between them..

Stooch
10-19-2006, 01:25 AM
hehe, is this the beginning of houdini for everyone?

GregMalick
10-19-2006, 01:50 AM
Does this mean that the development of TrueHair is almost done?

jeremyhardin
10-19-2006, 01:56 AM
and deformers (or soft/hard FX ) will still respect the positions given from the nodes?

toby
10-19-2006, 02:01 AM
I'm just wondering if LW's nodal won't be upgraded to do exactly what you're proposing - leaving you out in the cold? It's probably been considered already...

Panikos
10-19-2006, 02:12 AM
A Nodal motion system could make sense if there was an Expression system ready. Such thing there is not, so.
As already written, its Newtek task to grow both.

mav3rick
10-19-2006, 02:31 AM
lol this guy in truespace video sounds like ... :) hhahah u know what i want to say:) he has so soft voice:)lol

and by looking this NUCLEAR physics just to make somethin screw that way i dunno if i will loose so much time to put all this nodes to screw something...



Does this mean that the development of TrueHair is almost done?


lol good one.....:)

geothefaust
10-19-2006, 02:37 AM
Nodal based movement would be sweet as pie. :boogiedow

Sensei
10-19-2006, 03:16 AM
and deformers (or soft/hard FX ) will still respect the positions given from the nodes?

Yes, of course.. Even OpenGL Layout view port respect them..

SplineGod
10-19-2006, 03:21 AM
Im all for a node based motion system. I also agree that it should be something thats can be integrated into LW seamlessly. Right now LW has several different expressions systems:
The graph editor, motion modifier expressions and modifier, and relativity. LWs own expression system doesnt always see itself and relativity is also its own thing. Relativity is far more robust IMO and is supposed to be integrated at some point.
Once Newtek sorts out its expression/constraint system then Id love to see various interfaces including nodes that allow access to a powerful core. :)

Sensei
10-19-2006, 03:26 AM
A Nodal motion system could make sense if there was an Expression system ready. Such thing there is not, so.
As already written, its Newtek task to grow both.

But nodal is expression system itself! You can ready any value from objects and scene, do mathematical or logical operation and feed them to output of any kind.. In TrueMotion case position, rotation and scalling of object it belongs..

Panikos
10-19-2006, 03:38 AM
For simple calculations is possible, like Sin, Cos, Texture, other object values etc.

What about Expressions like

A is SQRT (Object B Pos(x)) * Sin(1-Keyframed Object C Pos(y))
If A>B then "do this" otherwise "do that"
Restict F between 1 and -1
or nested expressions.
Its a programming language.

"Pluging a Cosine to Objects Position X" can be done easily, but this is not enough, imho.

dpont
10-19-2006, 06:56 AM
Suppose there's a trick to update nodal motion when
a reference item is moved in layout (without keying)
like it does for expression, because nodal ItemMotion
doesn't allow this currently.

37992

Denis.

GregMalick
10-19-2006, 09:23 AM
Suppose there's a trick to update nodal motion when
a reference item is moved in layout (without keying)
like it does for expression, because nodal ItemMotion
doesn't allow this currently.
Denis.
Well in normal Motion plugin/LScripts you have to tell the system which objects should cause a recalc when they move. I would assume it's similar for nodes.

tischbein3
10-19-2006, 09:33 AM
Suppose there's a trick to update nodal motion when
a reference item is moved in layout (without keying)


Would guess its a combination between

LWNodeEditorFuncs->newTime
and
LWInstUpdate( LWNODE_HCLASS, ...

mav3rick
10-19-2006, 09:54 AM
ahem guys:) this kind of discussions make my head explode.... can we use less of math ?

tischbein3
10-19-2006, 12:27 PM
I think it would be fair to provide some sort of demo (load/save disabled / only working for a limited frame range),
so people know what they will actually get / experiment themself.

Mylenium
10-19-2006, 12:56 PM
But nodal is expression system itself! You can ready any value from objects and scene, do mathematical or logical operation and feed them to output of any kind.. In TrueMotion case position, rotation and scalling of object it belongs..

Well, please try to take a much broader view on to the matter at hand and not see it as an opportunity to just make a few quick bucks on the side. What you are suggesting in no way takes care of expanding the envelope of LW itself nor is it anything else than yet another expression system with limitations.

For goodness sake get away from that old LW notion of expressions only being meant to control a few items' motions. You know, you can control entire scenes with "expressions" tied to a single generic "Scene Controller" Null object in Maya, Cinema4D and even TrueSpace and that includes everything from accessing vertices, to material properties to texture coordinates. What you are proposing covers none of that, at least not in the way I understand it and would like to see it implemented.

Other than that the current node system is far from being the generic mathematical/ programming solution you claim it to be and quite frankly I don't see you adding 200 nodes for adding missing functions. Building nodes for accessing vertex info, collisions, particle data etc. alone could take some major effort and even then you would quickly bump into the next obstacle - it's feasible you can read all data, but how you write it is pretty much an open question as Lightwave itself cannot even access certain things with its hard-coded routines. So how were you planning on circumventing that?

To give it to you straight one last time: What we need is a userfriendly node-based version of LScript, but with the Modeler and Layout parts combined, guaranteeing as deep an access as the user wants. Given current SDK/ API limitations, I definitely don't see you being the ones doing it. I don't have any interest in yet another half-a.s.s.e.d tool that only does one third of what it probably will be advertised for.

Mylenium

Sensei
10-19-2006, 01:16 PM
What you are proposing covers none of that, at least not in the way I understand it and would like to see it implemented.

I am proposing what is possible to make, in current LightWave and current LW SDK (and actually working for me), not what is simply impossible..

And I treat your answer as "better do nothing if it's not completely new rewritten LightWave"..

Earl
10-19-2006, 01:18 PM
To give it to you straight one last time: What we need is a userfriendly node-based version of LScript, but with the Modeler and Layout parts combined, guaranteeing as deep an access as the user wants. Given current SDK/ API limitations, I definitely don't see you being the ones doing it.
Given my understanding (as limited as it may be) of LightWave's current core, I have to agree with Mylenium here. I think this is a job for NewTek, and I'm really hoping that they are already working on it with the revamping of the character animation tools.

I do think the Nodal Surface editor was the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, but I am going to wait for NewTek to unveil the rest - not a third party solution.

jeremyhardin
10-19-2006, 01:34 PM
Confused by the hostility at a third party for dissatisfaction with Newtek's development of LightWave.

Phil
10-19-2006, 01:38 PM
I'm waiting for a solid example of what Nodal brings to the field over expressions :) My preference from NewTek would be to see Relativity expanded to have access to everything in the system (including particleFX data and point on mesh location information), followed by a dumping of the old expression system. In that situation, I'm not entirely sure what Nodal motion handling has as an advantage. *shrug*

Panikos
10-19-2006, 04:15 PM
So far, the disadvantage of Nodal System is that you cannot mix parameters from various scene items into the same Nodal calculation.
The only way to do this is by Copy-paste and not directly link the output of a calculation into multiple scene items.
That is, a flock of calculations permormed independently and parallel without having the ability to combine them. Maintenance become impossible.

Projecting this pattern of working, prevents the potential of relating Surfaces,Displacement,Motions, Camera Parameters,Dynamics,Volumetrics,Processing into a common Nodal-pad.

Having such limited Nodal System, is like not having it.

GregMalick
10-19-2006, 04:44 PM
That is why I suggested suggested the following last May:

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51528&highlight=node

tischbein3
10-19-2006, 05:17 PM
So far, the disadvantage of Nodal System is that you cannot mix parameters from various scene items.

Well in fact this is the same disadvantage, plugin development has to face since years: No global plugin/access.
Implementations like global memory (pool) and communication ring
dampened the problem, but in no time these were ideal solutions.
(Maybe they do.... in fact sooner or later they have to.... so no pun/frustration-crawling on the old lady here.)

But still I think to have an additional local motion node editor isn't that bad at all...

Mylenium
10-19-2006, 11:22 PM
Confused by the hostility at a third party for dissatisfaction with Newtek's development of LightWave.

Nope, you got that wrong. Actually with v9 I'm sufficiently satisfied with version-to-version improvemnents for the first time as long as I use LW (since v4). My problem with what Sensei suggests is that it is yet just another plugin and I strongly feel that he just doesn't see "the big picture". Why should I even want to open the motion panel, add his plugin, then dig into the node editor maybe only to find out that what I want to do is not possible? Could it get possibly any more convoluted? C'mon, this is 2006. What we need is a generic node editor where we can add just about everything LW provides and where we don't need to think in crooked, workaroundish ways. I'd much rather wait for one more version of LW than squander money on a plugin.

Mylenium

Sensei
10-20-2006, 12:57 AM
So far, the disadvantage of Nodal System is that you cannot mix parameters from various scene items into the same Nodal calculation.
The only way to do this is by Copy-paste and not directly link the output of a calculation into multiple scene items.
That is, a flock of calculations permormed independently and parallel without having the ability to combine them. Maintenance become impossible.

I probably understood you wrong but in bolded text you are talking about reading many parameters and compositing one result, and line later about exactly reverse- using one value to rule multiple items at a time..

In both cases solution can be temporary NULL object which receives data from multiple other items in complicated nodal expression, and multiple objects instead of copying this expression many times, using NULL position, rotation or scalling, read by Item Info node..

Here is video of TrueMotion at work.. 1 NULL bounces in Y axis with time, done by sinus node, 2 NULL is key framed route, 3 NULL is copying XZ axes from 2 NULL and Y axis from 1 NULL, merging everything into one position.. I think so that if instead of copying axes multiplication by Front/Right/Up vectors is used, it follows path properly even when it's bended in the all axes and really complicated..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_1.mov

Stooch
10-20-2006, 03:35 AM
Confused by the hostility at a third party for dissatisfaction with Newtek's development of LightWave.

seconded. one would think someones mother was bittch slapped.

dpont
10-20-2006, 03:58 AM
Sensei, your sample use keyed motion,
does it follow such item if you move the
reference item in layout without keying?
(know it's a detail, but expression allows this)

May be you could add an Item Info node
with Time offset (like in mine...),
38038

And a Point Info node for a selected mesh,
and an AddPreset button?


Denis.

Panikos
10-20-2006, 04:08 AM
The necessity is about a LW native core solution and not a patch on top of several other patches.

Whether is one node plugged to many or the opposite, has no importance at this stage of infant request.

dpont
10-20-2006, 04:30 AM
No, an Item Info node with time offset is useless,
you can add a constant vector with 3 expressions :-)
Ref.pos(time - 0.25).x
Ref.pos(time - 0.25).y
Ref.pos(time - 0.25).z

Denis.

Sensei
10-20-2006, 04:56 AM
Sensei, your sample use keyed motion,

Only for reference NULL..



does it follow such item if you move the
reference item in layout without keying?
(know it's a detail, but expression allows this)

Yes, of course it follow (just need to move frame slider a bit, but that can be automated by using special Master Handler run all the time like NodeUpdater)..



May be you could add an Item Info node
with Time offset (like in mine...),


Yes, I have such node Extended Item Info (with the all elements like original ItemInfo exposed for user, forward/right/up vectors are VERY important), but it's not in TrueMotion, but in TrueArt's Node Library..

Sensei
10-20-2006, 05:12 AM
But Denis hit very important issue! Item Info extended by time offset allows creating follower, parenter where target object is following or OVERTAKING other object... You basically add such node, get time from Time Info node, subtract constant or variable value (that itself gives interesting results), and feed Extended Item Info and result pass to target object position/rotation/scalling..

Example:
Load car object, clone 4 times, for each of them use different Transparency in Surface Editor, the closer to original the more opaque.. Then 2 cars follow target car, and 2 overtake car giving custom motion blur with true objects! And distance between cars and transparent clones can be controlled, source car moving fast=clones with high distance (time offset grows), source car moving slow=clones with low or 0 distance.. Clones can have inertia, and when car slow down or stops can for a while still move in direction they moved, but then bounce and go to source car position..

Sensei
10-20-2006, 05:17 AM
Denis, by accident you helped me, and I probably found solution to allowing redrawing motion without moving frame slider- in UseItems() returns list of the all items in the scene! :)

Sensei
10-20-2006, 05:22 AM
BTW, TrueMotion's motion blur described above is visible in reflections, refraction and what is also important to note - is not straight but curved!

Sensei
10-22-2006, 12:40 AM
It looks like True Motion Blur is visible not only in reflection/refraction but also in OpenGL preview in Layout..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/TrueMotion_2.png

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_5.mov

Transparency of each object can be controled in Surface node editor by expression too..

Sensei
10-22-2006, 01:24 AM
5 video showed Render Info's Time as input for calculating distance, 6 uses Frame as source with slighty modified Transparencies and I think so effect is better.. It's single pass render, in 9.3 seconds just because each ray is hitting maximum recursion limit, without reflective box, ball with motion blur renders 1.0 second (dual-core, 2.0 GHz T2500), exactly the same as without this motion blur (Perspective camera used therefore rays are always traced, with Classic it would be much faster)..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_6.mov

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/TrueMotion_6.png

Sensei
10-22-2006, 06:21 AM
With nodal motion expression like this, you can create unlimited number of clones each following base object with different offset in time/meters.. It takes current object item and subtracts base item to calculate clone index (0 means base object).. Such values is later used as input to multiplication/division/gradient to change to useful value.. One expression rules the all clones! Setuped once, then cloned and voila..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/TrueMotion_3.png

In animation you get something like this:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_8.mov (http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_7.mov)

Now, Transparency in Surface node editor is controlled by clone index.. Linear gradient..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/TrueMotion_4.png

In animation you get something like this:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_8.mov

Non-linear gradient..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/TrueMotion_4.png

In animation you get something like this:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_9.mov

Non-linear gradient with more tweaking gives the best look so far..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueMotion/Graphics/Movies/TrueMotion_10.mov

Everything is single pass, no AA, rendered in the most advanced form 10% slower with 10 motion blur objects (10.8 sec) than with just base object (9.3 sec)..

Dodgy
10-22-2006, 01:47 PM
While a very useful endevour, I would have thought that NT were on their way to implementing a similar system natively, with more expansion on the sdk end, so it might be more worthwhile for you to finish your hair plugin.

Sensei
10-23-2006, 12:43 AM
While a very useful endevour, I would have thought that NT were on their way to implementing a similar system natively, with more expansion on the sdk end,

Dodgy, what would be sense of buying and including Relativity in that case, if NewTek had plans to make Motion Modifier also Nodal?


so it might be more worthwhile for you to finish your hair plugin.

TrueMotion was earlier project, and node editor source code can be copied directly to TrueHair..

SplineGod
10-23-2006, 01:02 AM
sensei it looks cool. :)

pooby
10-24-2006, 02:07 AM
Sensai,

If you can make this do what the current motion modifiers can do, but make it all blendable, then it's a worthwhile endevour. It's not going to get over LW's larger shortcomings, but it will still get over many of the modifiers limitations .
Newtek may implement their own version in the future, but thats not been confirmed, and if they don't, this version might be able to be upgraded when LW gets animation changes to the core later..

Dodgy
10-24-2006, 03:34 AM
I agree, this is why it makes it the most logical next step. If all the motion modifiers can be encoded to work this way, you can feed the outputs of one into another and never have to worry about things not being picked up again by a plugin. I just didn't want you to waste your time doing something which NT is probably working on. However, as pooby says, there's no indication they are doing it, so it of course remains up to you :)

Verlon
10-24-2006, 03:54 AM
I am more intersted in the hair plugin at the moment. I'd have to see this doing something really cool for me to spend any real money on it.

I am not saying it doesn't have potential. I just don't see what it can do for me personally at this time (not trying to be discouraging, really...just being honest about what I would be willing to buy at this time).

Now if it turns out that I discover I need something like this.....that's another matter :)

sudac20
01-04-2007, 09:18 PM
hair please:hey:

cresshead
01-05-2007, 09:45 AM
looks an interesting project...
we don't have ANY clue that newtek will/will not im plement nodal motion into lightwave as a core capability so this is quite interesting to see what can be done from a 3rd party point fo view...have you talked to newtek about this as a proposed development for the core?

Sensei
01-05-2007, 10:02 AM
looks an interesting project...
we don't have ANY clue that newtek will/will not im plement nodal motion into lightwave as a core capability so this is quite interesting to see what can be done from a 3rd party point fo view...have you talked to newtek about this as a proposed development for the core?

Putting everything into LightWave application result in dropping development by original author- you have numerous examples of this in the past.. Additionally clients have to wait multiply of half year (at least) to have any update, so my opinion is that it's better to develop things by 3rd party and have updates in days or weeks, instead of months or years, or never..

BTW, people here are using word "core" instead of "application" which is misleading really..

SplineGod
01-05-2007, 11:16 AM
I think Relativity will eventually be node based or something along those lines. I seem to remember Jay Roth saying something along those lines a few months ago when he spoke to the LA Users group (though dont quote me). I would think everything in LW will go that way. Newtek has said that Relativity will be integrated at some point and it makes sense to do it in a node based way. At this point Relativity as a plugin is still better then the built in expression system.

That being said who knows when that will happen. I would prefer to have it now rather then later even if it is from a 3rd party. Id still think Sensei would do some things better or different. Look when Newtek implemented expressions into LW. Relativity was and still is MUCH superior.

StereoMike
01-05-2007, 11:36 AM
With core they mean that it should be bound to the application on low level (usually by the develpoper...) not as another patched plugin (on which LW has a long history).

True what you said about dropped development on bought plugins, but you don't want an application that relies on 3rd party when it comes to stuff that is so basic (or better: fundamental) like the motion and animation capabilities of an _animation package_.
I think really that NT has to come up with such a thing finally, if that's not a problem for you, more power to you.
Right now there's so much movement under LW's hood, that I guess alot of 3rd party plugins are legacy in a few month.

Mike

Sensei
01-05-2007, 12:04 PM
Already written after July'06 LW v9.0 custom cameras are now legacy (that's just 6 months!).. You know ;) With such direction it's absolutely no sense in writing anything..

More seriously.. If NewTek won't make more such ridiculous movements as with ACT, properly written plug-ins will continue working without problems.. Badly written (like FI's Wrinkle & Fillet that used illegal LScript technique for making them interactive) will stop..

DiedonD
01-05-2007, 12:25 PM
Naaaaahhh....... It just gets more complicated with the way you guys are talking. The only right animation for me, regarding character animation that is, would be to make animation as easy as pupeteering a puppet. Anything better then that would be mind reading, and thats not due in my lifetime, stick to the above...which.... is also nowhere to be found... :thumbsdow

Dodgy
01-05-2007, 02:13 PM
Given that NT seems to be working on the modelling and rendering side of LW, maybe there's room for your motion nodal after all :) I am interested in your Hair plugin though, what options are there for ungrading if I want to say buy the modelling side now, and wait a little to see some rendered examples first before I go for that?

prospector
01-05-2007, 02:24 PM
I am interested in your Hair plugin though
Same here, but time is getting short and FF looks to be the only way to go so far.

Sensei
01-05-2007, 11:23 PM
Given that NT seems to be working on the modelling and rendering side of LW, maybe there's room for your motion nodal after all :) I am interested in your Hair plugin though, what options are there for ungrading if I want to say buy the modelling side now, and wait a little to see some rendered examples first before I go for that?

Currently upgrade is doable by PayPal, but I would strongly encourage you to go full version from beginning.. It's so fun to play with TrueHair's Node Editor!
It's quite old video, currently it has much more node inputs (>18) to control and see how they change things in real time:
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_8.mov

lesterfoster
01-07-2007, 02:13 AM
Sensei.. Your programing skills are amazing. And your customer support is just outstanding.

I am not sure if TrueMotion is for me at the moment. But I am sure it is just right for enough other people that it makes it worth while for you to continue to develop this plug-in.

P.S.. Thanks for doing such a good job at making EasySPLINE.. EasySPLINE along with lwCAD is perfect for me.

Thanks Sensei, Viktor and the LW-Community
And this thread was a pleasure to read.:santa: