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Sensei
10-16-2006, 07:04 AM
Hi!

Do you want True Hair, or just cheap alternatives? :D
18 days of development result (not showing the all neat features already implemented, and showed to our clients):
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_4.mov
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_1.PNG

TrueHair Styler works directly in Modeler view ports, allowing to display thousands of hairs/fibers and bended in real-time while using TrueHair hair modeling tools, like Cut Hair, Bend Hair, Braid Hair, Twist Hair and many, many others, or using any LightWave built-in modifing tools like Move, Rotate, Stretch, or 3rd party like LWCAD or anything what has been written for Modeler.. It's basically the most possible imaginable integrated with LightWave solution!

You can pre-order it now on our website (http://www.trueart.eu/?URIType=Directory&URI=Shop) and get the latest VirtualMirror (http://virtualmirror.trueart.pl) as free gift! (f.e. 2 TrueHair pre-orders allow taking 2 free VirtualMirrors)
Commercial VirtualMirror works together with EasySpline and TrueHair showing spline cages/hairs on mirrored side!

Best Regards!

jeremyhardin
10-16-2006, 07:13 AM
Exciting. Do you plan to implement a rendering solution later? Or are these hairs intended to be used with other Sas and other methods?

Sensei
10-16-2006, 07:25 AM
It can be used with them after freezing hairs, but volumetric will be done (TrueHair Full Version - $250)! I can't wait to see how it will render and texture hairs :)

jeremyhardin
10-16-2006, 07:31 AM
Great news, that. Ok, next question on my mind. Will the volumetric hair work with all light types?

With XSI Advanced hair, I can throw any light type (or shadow type) at hair and it will work. Volumic Shadow maps work better than 2d, you get away with what you can, and sometimes the 2d shadow map works just fine.

And will the default shader settings look like hair (unlike SAS's defaults)?

Sensei
10-16-2006, 07:46 AM
I can assure you that we'll do all possible to come up with the best out of box hair look..

tyrot
10-16-2006, 08:09 AM
dear sensei

Holy Cow! that looks really like INTEGRATED. Congr. Big time.

After all your hard work on different segments of modeler this will be your TRUEachivement and i ll be your client:) Make some bundles mate...

BEST

jeremyhardin
10-16-2006, 08:35 AM
Outstanding. I'll be following this one.

digital verve
10-16-2006, 08:46 AM
Just had to chime in and say 'That looks cool'. I'm looking forward to seeing where you take this. It's nice to see new hair plugins being developed for LW by people such as yourself and Fiber Factory. That video makes hair sculpting look so easy and intuitive. :)

CMT
10-16-2006, 08:48 AM
This shows great promise! When will there be screenshots available of some renders?

kfiram
10-16-2006, 08:58 AM
Cool!!!

kmaas
10-16-2006, 08:58 AM
18 days of development result

Ah, so you did start building your plugin after I started mine. The hair olympics have begun - may the best plugin win.

jeremyhardin
10-16-2006, 09:03 AM
"When lenders...I mean developers...compete, you win!"

;)

Sensei
10-16-2006, 09:07 AM
Ah, so you did start building your plugin after I started mine. The hair olympics have begun - may the best plugin win.

Actually TrueHair was researched at the time when there was no sign of Fiber Factory IV.. I just didn't want what happened to our automatic interactive (ala Modo) unwrapping tool TrueUnwrap after Nitisara releasing his first commercial plug-in UVNeater..

BTW, you showed 1000 lines of code.. We've now 30,000...

Sensei
10-16-2006, 09:15 AM
"When lenders...I mean developers...compete, you win!"


I disagree/not completely agree with you.. ;)

Because anywhere somebody from outside can come with free software that will kill product developed by long standing manufacturer.. After failure in sales developer goes away, and the one with free soft disappears sooner or later, because he/she must do something for money to live.. ;)

At the end users have one soft for free but dozen not produced by long standing developer that leaved market..

You probably guess what I am talking about.. ;)

prospector
10-16-2006, 09:17 AM
So Styler and TrueHair are seperate?
Or is Styler used with Sas and True Hair includes Styler?

375 for both..hmmm

Will there be a package deal?

Oh yea, I am having problems making hair work like in the Shampoo commercials, IE hair slides over shoulders and dissapearing in cheeks and a full body bounce (her flip curls acting like real flip curls) (see my avitar).....will this be easily done in TrueHair?

Exception
10-16-2006, 09:22 AM
Ive never heard of either TrueUnwrap or UVNeater... can't find anything about neither :(

kmaas
10-16-2006, 09:28 AM
Actually TrueHair was researched at the time when there was no sign of Fiber Factory IV.. I just didn't want what happened to our automatic interactive (ala Modo) unwrapping tool TrueUnwrap after Nitisara releasing his first commercial plug-in UVNeater..

Research and real life are two entirely seperate things. As an example, BSP trees have been around since SIGGRAPH '79/'80, but NewTek just recently implemented them. You could say it's been 'researched' for the last 25 years, but does it matter to anyone here? Probably not, because it didn't affect them. I've researched hair/fur for years, and I'm sure Joe did years of research for FiberFactory. He did research even before the first version of FiberFactory was released, which is a lot earlier than when you said you started. What really matters is what you do, and according to your development time figure you stated above, you have to admit that you started 'doing' after I did.

Anyway, a little more competition will be better for the community - it's one thing they don't have enough of now. There will better plugins, and there will be worse plugins, but at least people will have a choice.


BTW, you showed 1000 lines of code.. We've now 30,000...

If that's the number of lines in C/C++, then you must not be a very efficient coder. Or are you counting assembly language lines?

Personally, I'd rather have a program be small enough to efficiently use the processor cache than have a slow, clunky, large program that takes extra prefetching and causes extra cache misses, but maybe that's just me.

Sensei
10-16-2006, 09:35 AM
So Styler and TrueHair are seperate?
Or is Styler used with Sas and True Hair includes Styler?

TrueHair Styler for $125 is only option during development to pre-order one, then upgrade to Full with volumetric & dynamic.. When volumetric will be ready this option will be gone..
TrueHair for $250 is TrueHair Styler plus volumetric & dynamics..


375 for both..hmmm

No, just $250..



Oh yea, I am having problems making hair work like in the Shampoo commercials, IE hair slides over shoulders and dissapearing in cheeks and a full body bounce (her flip curls acting like real flip curls) (see my avitar).....will this be easily done in TrueHair?

I will answer that when development will be at dynamics module.. But I suppose so it won't be any problem..

Sensei
10-16-2006, 09:40 AM
If that's the number of lines in C/C++, then you must not be a very efficient coder. Or are you counting assembly language lines?

I am showing people real-life videos instead of screen-shot of line count in editor, that would be just percent of any professionally made interactive tool (which anyone has 3000-5000)..

Sensei
10-16-2006, 09:41 AM
Ive never heard of either TrueUnwrap or UVNeater... can't find anything about neither :(

UVNeater was killed by PLG unwrapper..

kmaas
10-16-2006, 09:43 AM
I am showing people real-life videos instead of screen-shot of line count in editor...

I'd absolutely agree with this. Personally, I'd rather have a line count, a screenshot, and a video than just a video which was obviously sped up to make your tools look easier to use. Which, I might add, I posted all of (with the exception of the sped up version) before you posted your video. So, yes, I'd say this argument applies, but not to me.

Check. Your move.

GregMalick
10-16-2006, 09:58 AM
Sensei,

You should make available some of the other videos.
Especially the hair cutting & the weight map videos.
Oh yeah, and the braiding (twisting) video.

Just a suggestion....

Sensei
10-16-2006, 10:04 AM
You should make available some of the other videos.
Especially the hair cutting & the weight map videos.
Oh yeah, and the braiding (twisting) video.


I don't want childs to stole ideas.. ;)
And I also think that Braid Hair interactive tool is awesome...

kmaas
10-16-2006, 10:07 AM
"When lenders...I mean developers...compete, you win!"

I agree completely. It gives people much-needed options, and gives them better products for lower prices.

From a developer's viewpoint, whenever you have competitors, it lets you show people how much better your product is. And besides that, it forces you to make the best product out there.

At least, that's the way I look at it.

Wickster
10-16-2006, 10:28 AM
Geez, it felt like it was just yesterday when everybody was asking for a different hair solution for LW, now we have a dozen to choose from. Can't say I can complain, all the more the better. I'm watching you two!!! :D

Now why don't we all ask for a liquid solution. Heheh :D

Thor Simpson
10-16-2006, 10:41 AM
It's great when developer's compete. But please spend your time competing with products and not trying to 1-up one another with words on a message board. ;)

That's not to say you shouldn't post here, but stick to the point. Answer questions from the potential consumer but don't get into an unprofessional pissing match.

Some people might care about lines of code etc etc but not most people. They will care what the product delivers. There's no sense in arguing here over whether a competitor may be better or worse than you, especially in any way other than actual features.

Just my thoughts. I look forward to seeing what both products deliver. I anticipate a lot of holes based on what I've seen so far. This looks like a fantastic solution if it comes to full fruition but that looks a while off unless some renders and physics are ready to be shown or discussed. The modeller side of this looks FANTASTIC. Really good.

UnCommonGrafx
10-16-2006, 10:45 AM
Agreed.

Many may end up supporting you both. You do no justice to yourself by pissing in the wind at each other. ;)

Lookin' good, Sensei!

Tank
10-16-2006, 10:51 AM
I have no real use for a hair solution, but for the solutions I do need I would much rather have a number from which to choose than only one. I've always liked that there's more than one way to accomplish most things in LightWave, and the LightWave community looks to be big enough for more than one aftermarket product. No need for a gunfight at high noon.

CMT
10-16-2006, 11:13 AM
I don't really care about who started what first and all this. All I care about is whether the quality will be as good as the hype. So far I've seen a pretty outstanding movie for the control scheme. To me that's a great first impression and gives me confidence that Sensei is creating something to worth waiting for.

tyrot
10-16-2006, 11:20 AM
dear kmaas and sensei

although you are naturally competitor for eachother i think you should stop invading your private threads...

At last we will enjoy the benefits of having three developers on same lacking point.

But do not just make things ugly in these threads. We will both support you. There are tons of move tools, tones of plugins doing the exact samething, but i like this one, he likes the other one...The best thing for you to create good, honest development. Noone is child, noone is master. Belittling the competition fires back. Being cool, positive, explanatory is the best thing you both should do.

I know Sensei's past with LW plugins. He came this point one by one. I m sure he will pull this off. But who CANT tell KMAAS is not the next Worley. So this week is a great start. I am exteremly excited.

The way TrueHair works pretty satisfactory. I hate separate windows. I want buttons lying on my menu. So before going FF solution(which i was almost sold) i will wait for development of TRUEHAIR. I cant go anywhere at this point. But hair is a though stuff, so Sensei, show us more.

Sensei...TRUERENDER is needed mate:) I hope you start that one also.

BEST

colkai
10-16-2006, 11:25 AM
If a developer is afraid of competition and is keen to point out who started development first, that's not a healthy sign.

I don't undersand why KMaas felt the need to take a jab at Sensei as an initial reply, not only in terms of when development started but the quality / efficiency of his code.
As Thor said, if one-upmanship is important, please take it to PM's, trust me, it isn't painting anyone in a glowing light sparring on here.

theo
10-16-2006, 11:35 AM
If a developer is afraid of competition and is keen to point out who started development first, that's not a healthy sign.

I don't undersand why KMaas felt the need to take a jab at Sensei as an initial reply, not only in terms of when development started but the quality / efficiency of his code.
As Thor said, if one-upmanship is important, please take it to PM's, trust me, it isn't painting anyone in a glowing light sparring on here.

Agreed.

Focus should be on the solutions.

Nobody likes to see smart people looking like fools so let's move this into the closet shall we?

T-Light
10-16-2006, 11:43 AM
That's looking excellent Sensei. Very nice to see it working straight from with the modeler interface too, Great work :)

roctavian
10-16-2006, 11:47 AM
Impressive video demostration. When I saw Max hair styling tools I was envious. It seems your solution will give us a lot of room to find the best and fast sollution for hair styling.
I hope everything (fast and accurate rendering, simple and logical settings, fast dynamics, etc.) will go smooth teel the end.
I wish you luck and inspiration in your plugin development.

Sensei
10-16-2006, 12:34 PM
Sensei...TRUERENDER is needed mate:) I hope you start that one also.

What do you mean by TrueRender?

roctavian
10-16-2006, 12:43 PM
What do you mean by TrueRender?

hehe, I suppose it was a joke.:thumbsup:
Also, considering the modeler demostration, we all hope TrueHair will go hand in hand with TrueRender.

Sensei
10-16-2006, 12:49 PM
I thought that he mistook name of VirtualRender which is in production already..

tyrot
10-16-2006, 01:22 PM
dear sensei

virtualrender? what is it? i thought you are bringing TRUE mark on some aspects in modeler-layout. I thought it would be nice to get TrueRender from you. A competitor for Fprime..or others..

So i think virtualrender is something like that?

come on ..i Caught you!

Best

mav3rick
10-16-2006, 01:23 PM
ok am i only tht cant look video
say not .mov file?????

tyrot
10-16-2006, 01:33 PM
dear mav

Re-Download. Server was cutting my download as well..couple of times.

So make sure you have 24.6 MB file.

BEST

mav3rick
10-16-2006, 01:42 PM
oh thx ty worked:)

Earl
10-16-2006, 02:14 PM
Isn't it a bit early for preorders?

hrgiger
10-16-2006, 02:21 PM
It does seem a bit early for pre-orders, especially considering we haven't seen any type of surface handling capabilities of this True hair system. The video does look very promising however on the sculpting front.

I think with this and Fibre factory, I think the glove has officially been thrown down to Worley to come up with a competitive upgrade to Sasquatch.

That, or I'm just wishful thinking because I own Sasquatch and probably won't invest in another hair plug (hair plug, huh huh) anytime soon...

Come on SteveO, daddy needs a new hair plug-in...

geothefaust
10-16-2006, 02:46 PM
If you don't want to preorder it, then don't. Though, when you do, as Sensei said once before, the more people preorder it, the higher the demand there is for him to get the product out sooner to his customers.

Whatismore, I can say for certain that his updates are numerous, and have information that he doesn't post on the forums.

Personally, I think it's worth it. I'm glad you finally publicly announced it Sensei. I'm really excited about your hair/fur plugin. I hope you show the rest of the videos soon though. They really are quite neat, I think they would shed some light, as to the power of your toolset.

I can't wait to have my mits on this new plugin. :)

Keep up the great work.

KillMe
10-16-2006, 04:23 PM
Sasquatch 2 just announced on worley page

www.worley.com





nahhhhhhhh only joking - couldn't resist

jeremyhardin
10-16-2006, 04:33 PM
Sasquatch 2 just announced on worley page

www.worley.com





nahhhhhhhh only joking - couldn't resist

Haha you bloody bastard. You got me. I saw the notification in my inbox and just about wet myself with excitement. :cursin:

Cruel. Just cruel.

Bog
10-16-2006, 04:40 PM
Colour me officially excited by all this.

Anyway - I think if Worley released Sas2 before FPrime 2, I'd have heard the screaming from here...

KillMe
10-16-2006, 04:44 PM
if its in the works it wouldn't surprise me if he wants it released before all these new ones get onto the market - so never know worth keeping an eye on his site

and bog - fprime 2 is already out =) think we are on 2.1 now - take it your hoping for 3 =) - either that or my computer is from teh future =)

GraphXs
10-16-2006, 04:48 PM
Wonderful! I hope to pre-order it soon. :D :thumbsup:

How long is the pre-order gonna last, I hope its a couple months, ya know X-Mas is around the corner and money is always tight.

hrgiger
10-16-2006, 04:58 PM
Sasquatch 2 just announced on worley page

www.worley.com





nahhhhhhhh only joking - couldn't resist

Pretty much got me too. I had a real nice warm feeling in my loins and I realized I was getting yanked as soon as I clicked on the link.

Verlon
10-16-2006, 06:54 PM
I do not care who started first, whose code is prettier, who uses proper hungarian notation for variables or whatever.

I barely care who finishes first.

I just want a better hair solution than Sasquatch 1.8. I am not above owning more than 1 hair plugin (used to own Shave when it was being updated).

Sensei
10-16-2006, 08:17 PM
]
virtualrender? what is it? i thought you are bringing TRUE mark on some aspects in modeler-layout. I thought it would be nice to get TrueRender from you. A competitor for Fprime..or others..

So i think virtualrender is something like that?


It's special renderer that doesn't use phisical memory and keep data directly on hard disk..
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57728

geothefaust
10-16-2006, 11:17 PM
Sensei, when do you plan to have a working beta?

Sensei
10-16-2006, 11:43 PM
This week. One or two issues need to be fixed in hair previewer and it can be send.. I promised people that pre-ordered that when hair previewer will be working they will get the 1st alpha. But it was bad idea to show this video to public, nobody from 1500 visitors except our older clients pre-ordered in the last 2 weeks.. That explains why HairSpray was not updated for 3 years, nobody is interested in hair modeling..

GregMalick
10-16-2006, 11:47 PM
My guess is that your older clients already know the quality of your plugins and pre-ordered. :thumbsup:

The others are going to wait and see....

lw3d23
10-17-2006, 12:25 AM
hairspray is not really good, it is not easy to control, and not flexible.
but the way how TrueHair works seem much better.
it will need some time and more videos to convince ppl to pre-order. Unless the plugin is daxm great, otherwise I think most of the ppl will wait and see.

geothefaust
10-17-2006, 12:34 AM
Don't be so pessimistic Sensei. :)


If you build it, they will come.


Your plugins are top quality, and when you've got something that a lot of people will use, such as this, you'll get more people on boat.

jeremyhardin
10-17-2006, 01:18 AM
This week. One or two issues need to be fixed in hair previewer and it can be send.. I promised people that pre-ordered that when hair previewer will be working they will get the 1st alpha. But it was bad idea to show this video to public, nobody from 1500 visitors except our older clients pre-ordered in the last 2 weeks.. That explains why HairSpray was not updated for 3 years, nobody is interested in hair modeling..

Well, for me, I hate SAS (and SASLite). So while I'm quite pleased with the modeling setup you've created...as of now it's just a really good tool to make sh*t hair. :D
Once I see a render from you though...that could all change. :thumbsup:

BazC
10-17-2006, 02:10 AM
Don't be so pessimistic Sensei. :)


If you build it, they will come.


Your plugins are top quality, and when you've got something that a lot of people will use, such as this, you'll get more people on boat.

Exactly! I don't own any of your plugs but I do know your reputation, nevertheless I'm not handing you my hard earned cash until I see some renders lol!

Phil
10-17-2006, 02:11 AM
This week. One or two issues need to be fixed in hair previewer and it can be send.. I promised people that pre-ordered that when hair previewer will be working they will get the 1st alpha. But it was bad idea to show this video to public, nobody from 1500 visitors except our older clients pre-ordered in the last 2 weeks.. That explains why HairSpray was not updated for 3 years, nobody is interested in hair modeling..

Well you were also beaten to the march by Fiber Factory, which has styling and rendering out-of-the-box. I ordered that as soon as it was released and that has been the last budgeted expense for LW this year (having picked up the LW 9 upgrade, Dynamite, Maestro, IFW, exrTrader, iDOF, etc. this year). I having been using FF daily since then, along with the rest of these tools.

FF also ships with strandtool, which gives you the ability to use Modeler's tools to style hair, for example.

*shrug*

If Truehair had a rendering system available now, and I had been aware of it before FF4 became common knowledge, I might have waited to see. That said, I don't regret the FF4 decision at all. I am very glad I knew about FF4 before the Worley sale.....I wouldn't have been happy the other way around.

Bog
10-17-2006, 02:16 AM
I do not care who started first, whose code is prettier, who uses proper hungarian notation for variables or whatever.

I barely care who finishes first.

I just want a better hair solution than Sasquatch 1.8. I am not above owning more than 1 hair plugin (used to own Shave when it was being updated).

Absolutely. I'm going to need photoreal human hair in the next 2 months, and the thought of using Sasquatch for it doesn't overly fill me with confidence. I'm almost certainly going to be buying FF4, but it would be smashing to have a fallback position. Don't much care what it is as long as it does what I need it to.

Sensei
10-17-2006, 02:24 AM
Today we made TrueHair working with VirtualMirror and also there is great improvement in speed, and now both TrueHair & VirtualMirror works faster than video's TrueHair alone..

Experimental hairs coloring makes hair guides easier to modify, because points and their edges are better visible..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_2.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_3.png

Sensei
10-17-2006, 02:33 AM
Interesting to note is that without VirtualMirror even denser hair style is spinning arround 50 FPS now. On this image there is 1936 hairs, on 16 skins, 24,000 edges..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_4.png

DiedonD
10-17-2006, 04:31 AM
Sensei, this hair plugin will work on grass, and with cell shader as well, right?

Verlon
10-17-2006, 05:20 AM
Plenty of things to occupy my hard earned dollars: Christmas approaches, Vue 6 is coming, a pair of new tyres for the car, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and so on....

What advantage is there to a pre-order to offset the fact that I can't have the software now? I would seem to be better off waiting until the product is ready rather than 'relying on forward looking statements.'

CMT
10-17-2006, 08:39 AM
It all looks awesome right now, but also a bit uniform. I know you're still in the early stages, but will there be interactive settings for hair randomness, color, placement based on alphas, etc. for a more natural look?

wacom
10-17-2006, 11:09 AM
I find it funny that due to Sensei doing what I would think is good development, and starting where the user would need to start (AKA the modeling, styling, and dynamics) and doing that correctly Sensei has actully hurt himself in the short run.

People REALLY want to see those fur balls and NOW!!!

Look, just because Sas looks sub-par by now doesn't mean this one is going to look like that. I think it is VERY likely that it will render worlds better as just about every hair plugin that has come out in the last two years, for any program, is light years better a creating a hair and fur look than Sas is now.

Besides, after you get done doing your "100th wow that was cool" fur ball test render and get down to work with a hair system on a project you begin to appriciate all the OTHER things that are there or NOT there. Styling and modeling of the hair IMHO are a bigger deal to get right the first time- shaders can be updated, added to, and corrected more easily thanks to nodes.

Sensei - are you going to have a mini SDK or something that would allow people to write their own hair shaders and instance shaders? Could give you an edge!

Keep up the good work!

wacom
10-17-2006, 11:15 AM
It all looks awesome right now, but also a bit uniform. I know you're still in the early stages, but will there be interactive settings for hair randomness, color, placement based on alphas, etc. for a more natural look?

Since he's taking a volumentric approch wouldn't this means that a lot of that control will come from the shader? I've only used volumentric hair plugs before- but the majority of them had their macro settings controled by the guides, and the subtle ones by the shader.

Polygon or geometry ones seem to allow you to alter the mesh directly. I'm no expert but they have their pluses and minus, I think most of which might have to do with what happens at render.

Does anyone know what the memeory use is like for fiber factory?

Emmanuel
10-17-2006, 11:20 AM
Hi,

this video looks tremendous for styling hair, dont get me wrong, I serioulsy like it.
But I am disappointed by the fact that none of our estimated third party developers could come up with a truly innovative way of doing this stuff.
Think PaintFX.Think zBrush.These are trully innovative.
Would it not be much cooler and truly groundbreaking to make LW's hair tool of choice easier and more intuitive than any other tool on the market ?
I think our thirdparties are all excellent and good enough to come up with prodcuts to match the competition.Now, how about SMASHING the competition.
How about hair that gets painted on a surface with the airbrush and a pressure sensitive stylus, for example.Get rid of this lowlevel approach, make it a joy and addiction to use.
I think this spline-styling approach could be old fashioned, as poly modelling is compared with Silo2 or zBrush.

Phil
10-17-2006, 11:41 AM
Since he's taking a volumentric approch wouldn't this means that a lot of that control will come from the shader? I've only used volumentric hair plugs before- but the majority of them had their macro settings controled by the guides, and the subtle ones by the shader.

Polygon or geometry ones seem to allow you to alter the mesh directly. I'm no expert but they have their pluses and minus, I think most of which might have to do with what happens at render.

Does anyone know what the memeory use is like for fiber factory?

It's fairly memory heavy, but tunable. It's made worse if you require the voxel support to be used (for volumetric shadows, or for reflections). There are plans to improve this, though, throughout the 4.x series.

Where FF differs from Sas is that it needs to build the hair in order to provide the voxels at render time. That puts a fairly heavy memory load in place during render. When FF actually comes to render the hair itself, you see no additional memory load - it's all claimed when the render starts (the memory segment phase).

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 12:00 PM
Look, just because Sas looks sub-par by now doesn't mean this one is going to look like that. I think it is VERY likely that it will render worlds better as just about every hair plugin that has come out in the last two years, for any program, is light years better a creating a hair and fur look than Sas is now.


I don't think Sas suffers from render quality at all. The things holding Sas back are numerous but I don't think the quality of the render is one of them. It is also very versatile in controlling the look of the hair. It also isn't exactly a slow render, it's pretty zippy, even more so now with the lastest update. But as far as its limitations, we all know that:

Sas is too expensive in its current state
It isn't volumetric shading so no reflections
It has no modeler for guides
It only used shadow mapped spotlights for shadows

If Worley addressed those issues with a version 2 update, it would be one of the best hair plug-ins out there.

Oh, and here is your "101th wow that was cool" hairball.

jeremyhardin
10-17-2006, 12:39 PM
I don't think Sas suffers from render quality at all. The things holding Sas back are numerous but I don't think the quality of the render is one of them....

I don't really agree with you there. I will admit that SAS is versatile and capable of realism.

But I think it definitely suffers in the render quality area (in addition to the limitations you mentioned above). When you first add a hair shader, it should look like hair, even with 1 light on it. If you want to take that shader to represent other things (like grass or feathers or whatever), then you should be able to do that. I think it's safe to say that it does not look like hair unless you tweak setting to just right for that scene and then create just the right light setup (in my experience). I was going to pull a few WIP threads up to demostrate this, but I realized that might be rude to use others work as an example of the failings of SAS.

mav3rick
10-17-2006, 12:43 PM
hrgriger has no real dynamic collision detection...

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 01:03 PM
hrgriger has no real dynamic collision detection...

Are you referring to Sas or me? Because I have real dynamic collision detection. In fact, I ran into my coffee table just this morning before I got the lights on. Worked real well too. I have real nice effectors that made the texture on my leg look "bruised".

As far as Sas goes, no, hair mode has no dynamics at all. But fur mode has real time dynamics that need no calculation at all.

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 01:09 PM
I don't really agree with you there. I will admit that SAS is versatile and capable of realism.

But I think it definitely suffers in the render quality area (in addition to the limitations you mentioned above). When you first add a hair shader, it should look like hair, even with 1 light on it. If you want to take that shader to represent other things (like grass or feathers or whatever), then you should be able to do that. I think it's safe to say that it does not look like hair unless you tweak setting to just right for that scene and then create just the right light setup (in my experience). I was going to pull a few WIP threads up to demostrate this, but I realized that might be rude to use others work as an example of the failings of SAS.

Sas looks like hair with just the default settings and one light in the scene, I mean, I'm not sure what else it looks like. See pic below, it's what you have when you first apply sas and is using the default distant light in layout, no shadow maps which is what Sas uses. Sure, it's not the greatest hair but it looks like a furry/hairy sphere. Maybe you could argue that there is a learning curve with Sas and getting the right look takes some experimenting but again, I would just say that the sheer number of options with setting the look of the hair isn't a bad thing at all. I could pull plenty of renders up that I've done myself with Sas that aren't exactly what you would use to convince someone to use Sas, but I usually found that it was me making the hair look bad, not the software.
And of course I am talking about the full version of sas. Saslite is pretty much useless in my opinion, and if you want to talk about bad render quality, there's your boy.

jeremyhardin
10-17-2006, 01:21 PM
Sas looks like hair with just the default settings and one light in the scene, I mean, I'm not sure what else it looks like. See pic below, it's what you have when you first apply sas and is using the default distant light in layout, no shadow maps which is what Sas uses. Sure, it's not the greatest hair but it looks like a furry/hairy sphere. Maybe you could argue that there is a learning curve with Sas and getting the right look takes some experimenting but again, I would just say that the sheer number of options with setting the look of the hair isn't a bad thing at all. I could pull plenty of renders up that I've done myself with Sas that aren't exactly what you would use to convince someone to use Sas, but I usually found that it was me making the hair look bad, not the software.
And of course I am talking about the full version of sas. Saslite is pretty much useless in my opinion, and if you want to talk about bad render quality, there's your boy.

I understand what you're saying, but good software is versatile and makes the user look good. take Syflex for example. great sims on your first go really. and brilliant starting points with total control over the look afterwards.

And on the 'looks like hair' note...I was mainly referring to SAS's long hair. Forgive my ambiguity. I should have clarified. But, IMHO, it most certainly does not look like hair with 1 light and SAS just added. it looks like clumpy straw with odd specularity. Again, IMHO of course.

RedBull
10-17-2006, 01:46 PM
I don't think Sas suffers from render quality at all. The things holding Sas back are numerous but I don't think the quality of the render is one of them. It is also very versatile in controlling the look of the hair. It also isn't exactly a slow render, it's pretty zippy, even more so now with the lastest update. But as far as its limitations, we all know that:


I agree i think Sas is one of the best looking fibre/hair renderers around....
S&H definately had the advantage in setup, and instancing, dynamics,
But it's never looked as good as Sas can, IMO....

Most people i know HATE S&H rendered look, it does look artificial most of the time, and i'm not as convinced by it's appeal.....

Bhairy and new XSI plugins, don't feel me with any confidence whatsoever.
Maxon's Hair looks like some effort was put in, but again final renders seem to be a let down. Not really impressed with the shading of most of the other commerical hair plugins personally. I think most people underestimate the involvement of shading of hair...

I agree setup, styling and a number of other improvements need to be made
to Sas or any of the other solutions to improve them... But when it comes to rendering, Sas is one of the better IMO. (speed is also fairly good)
XSI's implementation of S&H is good, and is far better integrated and works
with most of the other tools in XSI.....

While these tools look like a great start i do think it's easy to get halfworking
generic tools that will help with styling, but not offer a lot more than that.

I agree with Emmanuel that spending sometime looking at best methodoligies
for an intuitive system would be worthwhile, or we will end up with a another Hairspray. I think maybe work with some actual hairdressers and stylists,
to see how us Virtual Hairdressers are meant to do the business...

T-Light
10-17-2006, 01:49 PM
jeremyhardin-

it most certainly does not look like hair with 1 light and SAS just added. it looks like clumpy straw with odd specularity

Glad I bought FF instead then :D

I've just posted a new thread on FF and uploaded a picture of how FF looks with basic settings and hair guides straight out of the box. It wasn't to compare with it with SAS per se, it's just a basic instruction guide to the various settings, but after you two chatting on the quality of SAS I thought I'd mention it :)

Earl
10-17-2006, 02:13 PM
Are you referring to Sas or me? Because I have real dynamic collision detection. In fact, I ran into my coffee table just this morning before I got the lights on. Worked real well too. I have real nice effectors that made the texture on my leg look "bruised".
How long did that take to calculate?

wacom
10-17-2006, 02:41 PM
Are you referring to Sas or me? Because I have real dynamic collision detection. In fact, I ran into my coffee table just this morning before I got the lights on. Worked real well too. I have real nice effectors that made the texture on my leg look "bruised".


Man I saw this coming (the joke- not the dynamic collision detection!)! About the funniest thing I've heard/read in a long time that had nothing to do with politics or sex!

Maybe you can work up a siggraph standup routine!

Look I know Sas can do it, it's just that now there are a lot of fur/hair plugs that really do a good job with the first go- and then you tweak away to get it perfect.

----------------------

So if this fur plugin is volumentric does that mean it will be able to do instancing and/or have fewer memeory issues? That is something that Sas and other similar hair shaders have over the polygonal ones...

jeremyhardin
10-17-2006, 02:51 PM
I agree i think Sas is one of the best looking fibre/hair renderers around....
<snip>
Bhairy and new XSI plugins, don't feel me with any confidence whatsoever...
<snip>
XSI's implementation of S&H is good, and is far better integrated and works
with most of the other tools in XSI.....
<snip>


Ok, if we're going to compare, let me show you what i mean by 'looking like hair'.

All of these images are my first time working in xsi and initial tests for the project. the upper left one is actually my first ever long hair test in xsi. (pardon the lack of AA on 2 of those).

let me add that i'm not trolling or evangelising. only clarifying what I'd like to see from a great 3rd party dev. :thumbsup:

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 03:07 PM
How long did that take to calculate?

Long enough for the godd*mnItWhoPutThisCoffeetableHere.wav sound to play in the scene editor.

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 03:15 PM
Redbull, that's pretty much my feelings on it. I love the look of Sas hair rendered, although I'm bitter about the whole lights restriction. I've always thought Sas looked more realistic then S & H hair though.

Jeremy, would love to see some larger pics of the hair you did with XSI. Right now it's hard to see the quality of them.

I'm just glad to finally see some competition for Sasquatch. Either Steve W will decide there are other hair solutions and it's not worth competing with and give up further development on Sas for the forseeable future or maybe he'll be challenged to show what a real hair plug-in should be like. I'm hoping it's the latter.

BTW, I dug up this old test I did of animating Sas hair with MD. I had the whole head of hair too but I can't find that one...(hope the 838k file isn't too big).

jeremyhardin
10-17-2006, 03:25 PM
Jeremy, would love to see some larger pics of the hair you did with XSI. Right now it's hard to see the quality of them.

I'm just glad to finally see some competition for Sasquatch. Either Steve W will decide there are other hair solutions and it's not worth competing with and give up further development on Sas for the forseeable future or maybe he'll be challenged to show what a real hair plug-in should be like. I'm hoping it's the latter.

Here's a movie: http://www.axisanimation.com/pop_movie.htm
I wasn't entirely happy with the movement of the first closeup hair, but I only worked on the project for a matter of weeks and left for barnyard.

And I agree about the competition too. :thumbsup:

GregMalick
10-17-2006, 04:11 PM
Wow!

You guys sure know how to hijack a thread.
Pages of posts without ever mentioning TrueHair.

Kinda discouraging to the developer, don't you think?

:tsktsk:

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 04:34 PM
I certainly don't mean any disrespect, Sensei is a talented developer and I'm anxious to see what he can do with this new plug-in but we are discussing hair solutions in Lightwave so we're not exactly off topic. I would hope that this talk of other hair solutions might give him some insight on what we like and don't like about what has been done in the past or currently and perhaps he can use this to shape at least some of his development on.

Jeremy, thanks for the link to the clip. Respectfully, I don't see anything there that makes me think less of Sasquatch as far as rendering quality. I think Sas gets a bad rap because it hasnt' been significantly updated in a long time and people automatically think 'outdated' but it still does give great results if you know how to use it.

DarkLight
10-17-2006, 04:43 PM
Here's a movie: http://www.axisanimation.com/pop_movie.htm
I wasn't entirely happy with the movement of the first closeup hair, but I only worked on the project for a matter of weeks and left for barnyard.

And I agree about the competition too. :thumbsup:

The hair looking good in that video, It's a shame that it won't be included in XSI foundation any time soon.

To both Sensei and kmaas,

Good luck to botrh of you, good hair styling and dynamics are definatly needed for LW but what is going to make or break any hair plugin will be the rendering. Writing a hair shader is not exactly a trivial task. Will be interested to see what you both come up with.

jeremyhardin
10-17-2006, 04:47 PM
I certainly don't mean any disrespect, Sensei is a talented developer and I'm anxious to see what he can do with this new plug-in but we are discussing hair solutions in Lightwave so we're not exactly off topic. I would hope that this talk of other hair solutions might give him some insight on what we like and don't like about what has been done in the past or currently and perhaps he can use this to shape at least some of his development on.
Agreed.


Jeremy, thanks for the link to the clip. Respectfully, I don't see anything there that makes me think less of Sasquatch as far as rendering quality. I think Sas gets a bad rap because it hasnt' been significantly updated in a long time and people automatically think 'outdated' but it still does give great results if you know how to use it.

You misunderstand me. That clip wasn't meant to bash SAS or make anyone think less of it's rendering quality. The pictures I showed earlier were meant to illustrate a great product being great throughtout the entire using experience, not just 'once you know how to use it'.
I, too, know SAS. It's based on that knowlege that I compare SAS to other products I've used. My point is not that SAS is worse looking than XSI. My point is that it is possible to give someone great control, but also a great starting point. XSI's hair looks like hair from the first click. It is my opinion that SAS's hair does not. So I posted a pic or two to illustrate this.

T-Light
10-17-2006, 04:49 PM
It's only my opinion and Giger please chip in if you wish :)

fiber factory IS the one to beat on rendering quality.
(this is pretty much out of the box using hair guides. Just tweaked a bit for the image.)

jeremyhardin
10-17-2006, 04:55 PM
It's only my opinion and Giger please chip in if you wish :)

fiber factory IS the one to beat on rendering quality.
(this is pretty much out of the box using hair guides. Just tweaked a bit for the image.)

wow. nice. how is that lit?

Bog
10-17-2006, 04:56 PM
T-Light, I concur. That Looks Like Hair. It's got the anisotropic spec, and that hint of transmission through the fibres with a translucency, refraction and frequency-absorbtion function happenning that Sas misses. If anything, it's going a little *too* far and looking a bit like fibre-optic cable doped with bromine, but it's a huge step forward in terms of Actually Simulating Hair.

Jeremy: Having done my usual annual appraisal of 3D Toolsets, I think a true generalist has to embrace more than one platform to maintain his title. There's so little you *can't* do in 3D these days, if you don't let your toolset limit you, by limiting yourself to one toolset. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

DarkLight
10-17-2006, 04:56 PM
Out of interest, what was the rendertime on that in FF?

T-Light
10-17-2006, 05:09 PM
JeremyHardin -

wow. nice. how is that lit?
With a single area light :)
DarkLight -

Out of interest, what was the rendertime on that in FF?
Oops. Sorry didn't check and to make matters worse I've just changed the object. It would have been around the 3-5 minute mark but I can't be any more accurate. The model I just loaded has a similar number of guides with the same settings as that image, it only took two minutes but didn't have a solid object within to cast the shadows on. Should say aswell I'm rendering these on a 1.6 GHZ centrino laptop, it's no speed demon.

tyrot
10-17-2006, 05:26 PM
deat T-Light

i loved that image.!I put it on my desktop. Am i the only one who sees an artistic value in last hair image?

a new art movement has just started ... hairart. Different schools, FFians, SASers, TrueHairers and others...

No matter what FF renders are really making me excited. Keep'em coming T.

Best

Bog
10-17-2006, 05:27 PM
i loved that image.!I put it on my desktop. Am i the only one who sees an artistic value in last hair image?

I thought I said that already :(

tyrot
10-17-2006, 05:33 PM
dea bog

of course except you bog. How many times i should write here, you are SUI GENERIS. You have seen all, done all, said all, post all. We are just copy of a copy of another copy.

Our Great War's a
spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been
raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be
millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And
we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off..

Was it you? or Tyler...Tyler? ...Bog? ...we dont have a name till we die. After death, name is Bog. The only name is Bog. :)

Best mate around:)

Bog
10-17-2006, 05:35 PM
You have seen all, done all,

Oh smeg on toast, I hope not! How boring would that be? No need to go overboard, Tyrot! *laughs*

That quote wasn't mine, but it is rousing and lovely. Dr. Bog Prescibes one loud listen of "We Didn't Start The Fire" to recalibrate the soul. Think I might just do that myself now.

Personally, I don't recall ever dying. Hopefully, I never will. Erm. If you see what I mean. ;)

T-Light
10-17-2006, 05:49 PM
Tyrot -

i loved that image.!I put it on my desktop.
WOW :D :thumbsup:
BOG -

I thought I said that already
You did, sorry, Double WOW :D

I'm raising a beer to you both :)

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 06:29 PM
Hey T-Light, that doesn't look too bad. Are you using guides, or does FF have a fur mode like Sas? I was just playing around and I made what looked like a Koosh ball (remember those?). I thought it was fun so I'll share. This rendered in a little less then three seconds.

Edit: nevermind, I see you were using guides.

UnCommonGrafx
10-17-2006, 07:13 PM
For the life of me, I can't figure out how to do that with clothfx. Is it NOT possible?


Snippage
BTW, I dug up this old test I did of animating Sas hair with MD. I had the whole head of hair too but I can't find that one...(hope the 838k file isn't too big).

ShawnStovall
10-17-2006, 07:50 PM
I know this might be a long shot but does anyone know of a free hair plug-in(something worth my while, not like SasLite). I can't even get a job yet(non I'm aware of)so I have no money to buy the high quality ones.

Sensei, what compiler are you using?

FF looks really good! I didn't think too highly of it when I saw it in action on its website, but I'm starting to see some really impressive results.

Sensei
10-17-2006, 08:19 PM
I find it funny that due to Sensei doing what I would think is good development, and starting where the user would need to start (AKA the modeling, styling, and dynamics) and doing that correctly Sensei has actully hurt himself in the short run.

People REALLY want to see those fur balls and NOW!!!

Exactly! People want to see texturing abilities of person making cool looking renders instead what is more important..



Sensei - are you going to have a mini SDK or something that would allow people to write their own hair shaders and instance shaders? Could give you an edge!

Fully customizable.. It's called node editor.. ;)

geothefaust
10-17-2006, 09:53 PM
Quote:
Sensei - are you going to have a mini SDK or something that would allow people to write their own hair shaders and instance shaders? Could give you an edge!

Fully customizable.. It's called node editor.. ;)


Very cool...

Earl
10-17-2006, 10:56 PM
Brent,
That hair example looks great. I especially love the individual strands on the outskirts. Unfortunately the middle area just doesn't convince me of hair. It looks more like wires or something else. But that could just be me...

hrgiger,
You nailed the koosh ball look. I have one sitting on my desk (almost the same colors too).

wacom
10-17-2006, 11:02 PM
Quoted for agreement!

Now THAT is a novel idea. I wish someone WOULD come up with that innovative approach. Similar to the way Vue6I will be able to paint eco-systems on a landscape. I am no programmer, but it "sounds" like it would be feasible.

Megalodon

Quated for agreement...but let's be realistic! That solution would work for short hair/fur- but long hair? That's so technique senstive you might as well go to salon school! Why do people think guides are so "been there done that"? Are we truely that lazy? Have you watched his videos? It's like cutting hair in the future! Sony would say it's 4D hair...but I get ahead of myself. Sometimes what seems like a more intuitive solution isn't always the FASTEST one.

Hey- I've got an idea that's not as crazy- how about a styles preset? Select some points/faces, pick a basic style- and now you've got something to work from- cutting your time WAY down. This is still asking a bit much- but if you think it through... People could save and share presets. Katie Curick preset? Say you have 50 space marines in a shot- well **** half of them might have a crue cut- why not have a preset then slighlty alter each ones hair. Maybe the presets could also be updated- and then that would reflect on updates to all models with that preset...and...and...

I'm not saying you guys don't have a point...but we're talking one guy developing here- you've got to give him plenty of constructive ideas...and maybe, just maybe one will stick...

BTW is it just me or does this thread have a Oregon theme?

Carm3D
10-17-2006, 11:03 PM
I didn't see this until now.. I am very impressed. I have MeshPaint (http://www.evasion3d.com/mp_lw_intro.html) and consider it to be one of LW's best-kept secrets. But for sheer interactivity, this one beats MeshPaint with ease.

wacom
10-17-2006, 11:14 PM
One last thought...are you going to incorperate another form of rendering and or AA that is expressly for this plugin so that larger renders have a more consistent rendertime in keeping with scale?

Like how some other renders have a rasterizer setting (divides everything into small blocks/pixel areas at render is my humble understanding) which saves on resources. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand such things- just the power they bring!

http://www.lamrug.org/resources/rastips.html

geothefaust
10-17-2006, 11:27 PM
There is a total domination by Oregon. As we are the best state in the union. :D


Wacom, presets are a cool idea. I think I already use the crewcut preset. ;)

Personally, being a newbie in the hair department, I think sasquatch can be a real pain. And having touched S&H recently, I can definitely say I would rather have an easier method then sasquatch. I am digging the videos Sensei has shown, it looks pretty powerful to me.

jeremyhardin
10-18-2006, 01:07 AM
Fully customizable.. It's called node editor.. ;)Now that's exciting.


Exactly! People want to see texturing abilities of person making cool looking renders instead what is more important..
Now, cmon. That's hardly fair. It's debateable what's 'more important'. I would say the final output is. And you can model nice wigs all day long. But if I'm buying a companion to SAS, I'm not interested. And if I'm buying an equivalent to SAS limitation wise, but with some nicer modeling tools, I'm also not interested. I don't want to see the texturing abilities of a person. I want to see the texturing abilities of the program. Is it going to limit the person, as I feel others have in the past.

As I said, I've been very impressed so far. I'm just hanging on to see the whole swimming pool before I jump off the high-dive.

Also based in Oregon. Portland suburbs.

Pavlov
10-18-2006, 04:35 AM
Sensei:
- a limitation isee is you have to "drag" your hair. It fits for a plane, but for a dog what woul you do ? imho hairs should generate automatically with given rules like normals, gravity, lenght... and after you tweak fibers. Maybe you already planned to do it, i wonder how will modeling tools evolve.
- Regarding your rendering engine, is it based upon LW's engine or is it a full-blown engine like Kray's or Fprime, which will introduce new features ?

thanks,
Paolo

pooby
10-18-2006, 05:46 AM
One problem with Sas, is that it just assigns a bunch of hairs to a 2 pt strand, This is noticable if you try to animate it.. there is no interpolation of hairs between the strands, which would create a much better effect.
The only-shadow-map thing is rubbish too.
This is the best hairdo I got out of Sas.. Making the guides in modeller was no fun.

jeremyhardin
10-18-2006, 05:49 AM
One problem with Sas, is that it just assigns a bunch of hairs to a 2 pt strand, This is noticable if you try to animate it.. there is no interpolation of hairs between the strands, which would create a much better effect.
The only-shadow-map thing is rubbish too.
This is the best hairdo I got out of Sas.. Making the guides in modeller was no fun.

agreed. and I remember that hair very well from when you posted it before. very impressive indeed. :thumbsup:

UnCommonGrafx
10-18-2006, 06:05 AM
Nice Pooby,
But can you animate that wig? I'm trying to find out if it's just me or are wigs not animatable under clothfx? Not a question of good or not; just whether one can get the wig NOT to slide of the hair or the roots to just sit there while the strands flail about.

Phil
10-18-2006, 06:24 AM
One problem with Sas, is that it just assigns a bunch of hairs to a 2 pt strand, This is noticable if you try to animate it.. there is no interpolation of hairs between the strands, which would create a much better effect.
The only-shadow-map thing is rubbish too.
This is the best hairdo I got out of Sas.. Making the guides in modeller was no fun.

I'd be interested to see what the guides look like, if you have a screenshot around. That's a remarkable piece of work :)

T-Light
10-18-2006, 07:00 AM
Uncommomgrafx -

But can you animate that wig? I'm trying to find out if it's just me or are wigs not animatable under clothfx? Not a question of good or not; just whether one can get the wig NOT to slide of the hair or the roots to just sit there while the strands flail about.
Yes, you can animate wigs, to keep the roots static you need to assign your root poly's with a different surface name (eg 'root') then in cloth fx use 'root' as your fixed surface. The rest of it is just about tweaking the settings till your blue in the face.

UnCommonGrafx
10-18-2006, 07:17 AM
T-Light,
Show me:
http://uncommongrafx.com/examples/HeadoHair.zip

The problem is that if you animate the hair, truly, those points are FIXED. That is to say, they won't move with the motion of the head. Even when given their own motion, she no sticky with motion.

I am PLEADING to be proven wrong. Or better said, I am PLEADING to be shown The Way.

T-Light
10-18-2006, 07:52 AM
Uncommongrafx, There's something in there I don't use, give me a couple of minutes to build a new scene :)

T-Light
10-18-2006, 08:01 AM
Definitely something in your scene relating to align to path? I built some new hair on the offchance and animated it in a new scene and everythings ticketyboo :) Give me a minute or two and I'll post a new scene.

pooby
10-18-2006, 08:21 AM
You can apply cloth dynamics to the strands, but they won't self collide properly, so the tendency is for them to fall flat and lank and have no volume.
If you put self collision on strands, the best you'd get is a lot of jiddering.

To get an overall effect of movement on shortish hair, you can make a 3D cage of 2pt polys, calculate dynamics on that and metalink the strands to the cage. this will keep the volume, but there will be little individual movment of the strands.

Shortish hair hardly moves anyway.. You can get away without animating it and it looks fine. Far better than over animated hair. Which you tend to see a lot of in CG..
It's long hair that's the pain because without self collision, the hairs all intersect and fall through each other. You can use metalink, but then they all move as a lump.

One good way of animating long hair is to use the PLG curve bone plugin on strands of bones but it is keyframed animation so it's a lot of work.. the good thing about it is the fact you can morph the hairs between one set of bones influence and another, which can create nice falling hair effect.
Plus.. if you set your control nulls over the shoulder, the hair will slide along and over the shoulder automatically.. Plus you can key it too..
If you wanted to really go for it, you could apply dynamics to some 2pt polys, then use 'make path' from some vertexes, then use those dynamically moved nulls as control points for PLG curve to apply the effect to bone chains..

T-Light
10-18-2006, 10:00 AM
Good advice there from pooby :)

The scene I set up with new hair broght the machine to a halt with a VGA screen and required a hard reset (Been a long time since I've seen XP do that). Second and third attempt still required a hard reset after about 10% of the calculations so no luck there. After that, I just loaded in your original two objects, parented the hair to the head, set your layer 2 object collision on, set clothfx on your hair to thick cotton and let it go for ten/fifteen minutes to see what it did. It was a mess :D, I think it was working but to be honest I was past that point of actually caring if it worked or not. (nah, it worked)

Here's a scene file I was playing with on Sunday to check out FF's hair guide animations. It's not pretty but it shows fixed roots with animation. It's yours to have a good bash around with :)

(go to object layer 2 properties/dynamics tab -> calculate, it's pretty nippy)


The second file 'uncommongrafx2' is your original scene files +
bh-newdefault.lws (working setup for fixed roots)
bh-savemdd.lws (saved animation + hidden head so the roots can be seen)
As I say, I didn't do anything with the hair itself so it's messy...

Can't upload (it's not my day). I'll try again in a bit.

[EDIT] Had to take out the mdd stuff, no idea why (it was all smaller than 5MB)

wacom
10-18-2006, 10:26 AM
Now that's exciting.


Now, cmon. That's hardly fair. It's debateable what's 'more important'. I would say the final output is. And you can model nice wigs all day long. But if I'm buying a companion to SAS, I'm not interested. And if I'm buying an equivalent to SAS limitation wise, but with some nicer modeling tools, I'm also not interested. I don't want to see the texturing abilities of a person. I want to see the texturing abilities of the program. Is it going to limit the person, as I feel others have in the past.

As I said, I've been very impressed so far. I'm just hanging on to see the whole swimming pool before I jump off the high-dive.

Also based in Oregon. Portland suburbs.


I guess I was just saying it should be a given at this point that someone, who is making a hair plugin, will have one that produces better hair than sas more easily (in terms of the render) since all of the competing programs are better than sas. AKA if it doesn't look better you might have a hard time moving copies.

I don't think, however, that splines are the wrong way to go- it all depends on how you can interact with them. Things like effectors (such as starting out with gravity etc.) should be incorperated though- and should be controled by something like weight maps. You could make some really quick Brian Bosworth spiked mullets this way! OK so that was a bad example...

UnCommonGrafx
10-18-2006, 10:26 AM
Working out of the house and taking advantage of wifi. Gotta love wifi.

Anyhow, will take a look at these scenes before the day is out. Thanks for the examples.

UnCommonGrafx
10-18-2006, 02:43 PM
Hey Brent,
What version of zip did you make the zip with?
Thanks!

T-Light
10-18-2006, 02:56 PM
It's been a 'Reeaal' long day, sorry, I think I may have changed .rar into .zip to try and get the file to upload :bangwall:

Apologies, I used winrar.

monovich
10-18-2006, 02:58 PM
nice hair!

now back off topic: Oregon, huh? I'm moving back up there pretty soon. Good to see familiar faces are already there. How's the market up there? I'm so done with LA.

UnCommonGrafx
10-18-2006, 03:59 PM
I am FRIKKIN PERPLEXED!

What did you do differently to my scene, Brent? Everytime I fix the roots, they don't move.

I don't get it. Maybe I need a new install...?!?

geothefaust
10-18-2006, 04:42 PM
Cool hair..


nice hair!

now back off topic: Oregon, huh? I'm moving back up there pretty soon. Good to see familiar faces are already there. How's the market up there? I'm so done with LA.


I'm not sure how it is, I'm still just a 'hobbyist'. If you know of any work, let me know, haha.

wacom
10-18-2006, 08:54 PM
So any news about what the memory usage for this is going to be? FF looks to suck up the RAM faster than sub pixel displacement on a bad day...


nice hair!

now back off topic: Oregon, huh? I'm moving back up there pretty soon. Good to see familiar faces are already there. How's the market up there? I'm so done with LA.

What kind of work do you want to do? Laika ( http://apps.laika.com/jobs/list )is a good place to go for large projects- you have a lot of skills so I'm sure they could plug you in somewhere. They use mainly Maya and Houdini with renderman though. Bent Image labs...this aint no LA! But I'm sure you can do freelance if you want....

maybe this is more you pace http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/tfr/215659714.html

There is also teaching at the local AI, and maybe PNCA- each could use some real talent there.

Your graphic desing skills can take you far if you try it out here so you might want to peddle that.

What are you doing jeremyhardin? He's probably not telling since he has the only good job in town!

mav3rick
10-19-2006, 02:39 AM
me have 4 gb momory:P

Phil
10-19-2006, 03:39 AM
So any news about what the memory usage for this is going to be? FF looks to suck up the RAM faster than sub pixel displacement on a bad day...


I'm not sure that's entirely fair. There are lots of knobs to tune the memory usage, depending on what you need in a given situation - it's a classical tradeoff of parameters. You *can* make it eat vast amounts of memory for jaw dropping quality / extremely high fiber counts, but you *can* also make it use very little memory for acceptable quality and sufficient fiber counts. The pixel filter also provides backculling and other tuning options, which I keep overlooking, also allowing for improvements for certain situations. Nonetheless, the developer has made a commitment to deliver additional improvements in this area for future updates as FF4.x

The situation for other hair solutions in development remains to be seen. Sasquatch is not something I can directly compare with, either.

In any case, with Two Yabadabizipos, you can probably dial everything up to extreme levels and not need to worry ;)

T-Light
10-19-2006, 03:52 AM
UncommonGrafx -

I am FRIKKIN PERPLEXED!

What did you do differently to my scene, Brent? Everytime I fix the roots, they don't move.

I don't get it. Maybe I need a new install...?!?
I don't know what we're doing differently, your scene didn't work here either. I don't have shave, although I don't see how that would have affected it.
This is from memory, but here's the basic steps.
New Scene.
Loaded in your head object
Loaded in the hair object
parented the hair to head layer 1
parented the head layer 2 to layer 1
created the animation for head layer 1
set object dynamics/collision on head layer 2
set object dynamics clothfx on the hair object
pressed calculate
All done :)

[EDIT] - That should have read 'set object dynamics clothfx on the hair object and fixed roots', but I guess you got that :)

Sensei
10-19-2006, 02:32 PM
Little new video - TrueHair Styler Extrude Hair..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_5.mov

It handles probably the all possible cases..
1) if mode is points and there is no point selected, hair guides start growing from the all layer points
2) if mode is points and there are some selected, hair guides start growing from those that didn't have hair guide yet, or already existing hair guide is growing more.. if point is root or middle it doesn't matter, hair guide grow only at the tip (and user doesn't have to precisely select tips before using tool)..
3) if mode is polygons and there are some selected, they're checked whether it's hair guide and if so, hair guide is growing, other polygon types are ignored..

In the all cases point mode is set at the end with newly made points selected, which allow immediate using Move, Rotate or Stretch like on video.. This tool is almost perfect equivalent of Expander but on hair guides, with exception it also switch currently active mode to points..

monovich
10-19-2006, 08:08 PM
What are you doing jeremyhardin? He's probably not telling since he has the only good job in town!

thanks for the info! I'll keep you posted. :)

Stooch
10-20-2006, 04:20 AM
It's only my opinion and Giger please chip in if you wish :)

fiber factory IS the one to beat on rendering quality.
(this is pretty much out of the box using hair guides. Just tweaked a bit for the image.)

im sorry but that looks like sh*t

It tells me nothing about the styling, the overall hair isnt very dense and its curly nature reminds me of something that doesnt grow on the scalp but elsewhere on the body.

and enough with the hairy balls. Lets see some realistic styled hair on heads. hairy balls dont really tell me anything about the ability to make something useful rather then... well... hairy balls.

p.s. I cherish the excuse to discuss hairy balls and by god i will excersize it!

Phil
10-20-2006, 06:18 AM
Polite little chap aren't you, Stooch? It might be worth your while looking at Proton's thread over at spinquad, unless you can't be arsed.

jeremyhardin
10-20-2006, 06:19 AM
Little new video - TrueHair Styler Extrude Hair..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/Movies/TrueHair_5.mov

It handles probably the all possible cases..
1) if mode is points and there is no point selected, hair guides start growing from the all layer points
2) if mode is points and there are some selected, hair guides start growing from those that didn't have hair guide yet, or already existing hair guide is growing more.. if point is root or middle it doesn't matter, hair guide grow only at the tip (and user doesn't have to precisely select tips before using tool)..
3) if mode is polygons and there are some selected, they're checked whether it's hair guide and if so, hair guide is growing, other polygon types are ignored..

In the all cases point mode is set at the end with newly made points selected, which allow immediate using Move, Rotate or Stretch like on video.. This tool is almost perfect equivalent of Expander but on hair guides, with exception it also switch currently active mode to points..


Very cool. Are these guide hairs interpolated at rendertime or do you 'freeze' them before sending to layout? If there is modeler guide interpolation, how much control do you have over the density?



Alas, I talked to Laika and was told they weren't hiring Lighter/Compositors for a while. Bent Image I talked to (and interviewed with) and was told I'd be hired. Never heard from them. So I'm back working temporarily in the UK while my stuff is in Tualatin.
The only paying work I got there was some freelance Greenscreen keying (http://twotonboa.com/video/index.html) for a local band's music video (compliments of craigslist). Shake gave me great keys, no spill beautiful edges. And even then they only ended up using my mattes and putting all the spill back in (you can see green all throughout the video). A couple of places they even departed from my matte. Thus the blurry edgy crap. Oh well. Paid is paid. But I won't be putting their finished product on the reel now.
So I give you my best wishes finding work there! :thumbsup:

T-Light
10-20-2006, 06:22 AM
Stooch -

It tells me nothing about the styling, the overall hair isnt very dense and its curly nature reminds me of something that doesnt grow on the scalp but elsewhere on the body
It's just a ball of hair, it wasn't made to show any of the qualities you mentioned, it is what it is, a ball with some loose hair on it. It wasn't a stylish hairy ball competition, I posted it to show the quality of the strands... and they are VERY high quality strands. My original post is only about one thing, rendering quality of hair strands, I said it was the one to beat, try to show me something better.

Sensei
10-20-2006, 08:23 AM
Very cool. Are these guide hairs interpolated at rendertime or do you 'freeze' them before sending to layout?

Freezing is required only if you want to use them in SasQuatch, SasLite or Fiber Factory..


If there is modeler guide interpolation, how much control do you have over the density?

There will be node editor for this..

pooby
10-20-2006, 09:44 AM
It's just a ball of hair, it wasn't made to show any of the qualities you mentioned, it is what it is, a ball with some loose hair on it. It wasn't a stylish hairy ball competition, I posted it to show the quality of the strands... and they are VERY high quality strands. My original post is only about one thing, rendering quality of hair strands, I said it was the one to beat, try to show me something better.


Close ups of a a relatively small number of strands don't really give a good indication of how the hair will look when applied to a haid of hair or used as fur. The important thing is how it will look from the distance it is viewed at usually.. I can imagine this fizzing like crazy in animation when you move back a bit, as the fibres are so fine and are rendered literally as polys.
The overall effect is the important thing..
To me, this is the equivalent of showing a highly realistic droplet of water to show how impressive your sea is going to look.

T-Light
10-20-2006, 10:44 AM
Pooby -

To me, this is the equivalent of showing a highly realistic droplet of water to show how impressive your sea is going to look.
Fair point :)
Pooby -

I can imagine this fizzing like crazy in animation when you move back a bit, as the fibres are so fine and are rendered literally as polys.
It's not poly's, it's a pixel filter, there's no frizz at all. :)

pooby
10-20-2006, 10:53 AM
Oh I didn't realise that, I thought FF just generated poly hairs - my mistake.

Well, I'd be interested in seeing it move from a distance. Sas can fizz a bit sometimes when using self shadows. Id like to see if this is better.

wacom
10-20-2006, 11:16 AM
Ah, I was mistaken then too- I thought that FF was geometry based! Well this does mean that he will be able to do more refinement in terms of memory eh?

Stooch
10-20-2006, 01:07 PM
Stooch -

It's just a ball of hair, it wasn't made to show any of the qualities you mentioned, it is what it is, a ball with some loose hair on it. It wasn't a stylish hairy ball competition, I posted it to show the quality of the strands... and they are VERY high quality strands. My original post is only about one thing, rendering quality of hair strands, I said it was the one to beat, try to show me something better.

well the droplet in the ocean is a perfect analogy for what im talkinga bout.

i dont care what the individual hairs look like. i really dont nor would i want to "one up" you by making yet another ball with hair on it. Ive looked at all the FF examples and i wasnt impressed by any in the least. The coverage looks bad imo and the overall hair density and styling is just not there. I would say the sas render looks way better (and it doesnt even look that good). And as far as politeness, lets not go there, this thread was created for "truehair" and everone here is pimping FF. thats not polite imo so dont expect me to be either. :)

Stooch
10-20-2006, 02:45 PM
btw, im excited by the styling video so far, this is a huge step forward for LW. lets hope that some kind of wacom attribute painting is in future plans, it would be great to setup an initial state with the current technique and the refine the guides further with painted attributes such as curl, clump, stiffness, color, etc. it would also be great if we could use a weight maps to drive the hair distribution. in fact all attributes could be handled with individual maps imo. anyway good stuff so far, lets see how the render looks. Dynamics of course are also critical too! and it shouldnt be a half assed workaround deal, it should be pretty straightforward and preferably realtime. I think alot of the maxon hair styling ideas should be seriously looked since it has some of the better setup workflow i have seen so far.

mav3rick
10-20-2006, 03:16 PM
agreeeddddddddddd

UnCommonGrafx
10-20-2006, 09:20 PM
Brent, Thanks!

Seems I didn't even need to re-install, which I did, as it seems to have been related to the scenes fps setting.

???

Could you check that scene for fps setting. Only found it because I tried it on 8.5 and some new panel came up that I'd never seen asking about fps speed. Checked it and it was at 120fps. Put it back to 30fps and it worked.

Got it working on my 64bit install, as well, with a new scene on the first try.
It's been a LONG day and I've just gotten home to try it. Nice to know I can go to bed in more peaceful mood.
Thanks for your assist.



UncommonGrafx -

I don't know what we're doing differently, your scene didn't work here either. I don't have shave, although I don't see how that would have affected it.
This is from memory, but here's the basic steps.
New Scene.
Loaded in your head object
Loaded in the hair object
parented the hair to head layer 1
parented the head layer 2 to layer 1
created the animation for head layer 1
set object dynamics/collision on head layer 2
set object dynamics clothfx on the hair object
pressed calculate
All done :)

[EDIT] - That should have read 'set object dynamics clothfx on the hair object and fixed roots', but I guess you got that :)

T-Light
10-21-2006, 08:22 AM
Yup, was at 120 :), question is, why on earth should dynamics ignore 'fixed' at 120 fps?

UnCommonGrafx
10-21-2006, 10:23 AM
I've got a months worth of that question!!

Really appreciate that you were able to show me it worked. Opened my mind to other things.

Even more life, now, for my shave dongle. lol

geothefaust
10-21-2006, 09:36 PM
btw, im excited by the styling video so far, this is a huge step forward for LW. lets hope that some kind of wacom attribute painting is in future plans, it would be great to setup an initial state with the current technique and the refine the guides further with painted attributes such as curl, clump, stiffness, color, etc.


Wow! Now that would be amazing. I would love to have that kind of ability. I wonder how hard that would be to implement?

Jeremy, you are lucky! I would love to work in the UK.

Sensei
10-21-2006, 11:54 PM
Wow! Now that would be amazing. I would love to have that kind of ability. I wonder how hard that would be to implement?


That's the plan and partially done already..
From interactive tool point of view it's just painting weight map which is on hair guide points (a few of them, each for parameter they control)..
But the whole magic must be done in hair generator used by previewer/freezer, so you actually see how painting weight map affected hairs..

geothefaust
10-22-2006, 03:51 PM
That's the plan and partially done already..
From interactive tool point of view it's just painting weight map which is on hair guide points (a few of them, each for parameter they control)..
But the whole magic must be done in hair generator used by previewer/freezer, so you actually see how painting weight map affected hairs..


Sounds like you're on top of it. I'm impressed. :)

T-Light
10-23-2006, 01:09 AM
It's looking excellent Sensei, any more vids?

Sorry to go back into FF for a minute but there's something I said the other day that I should clear up...
Pooby -

Oh I didn't realise that, I thought FF just generated poly hairs - my mistake
Wacom -

Ah, I was mistaken then too- I thought that FF was geometry based!
I think I gave the impression that FF wasn't geometry based but pixel filter based 'only'. It's actually both, In the FF modeler plugin you have the option of exporting your hair guides as two point polygons for rendering with the FF pixel filter, or, increasing your 'sides' from 1 to 2, 3, 4 5, etc. Doing this creates real polygon geometry for rendering without the pixel filter. Hope that clears it up.

Sensei
10-24-2006, 04:04 PM
It's looking excellent Sensei, any more vids?

No vids this time, but renders.. ;)

On the both screen-shots source 4 hair guides were used to generate SasQuatch/FiberFactory hair guides (you can control how much do you want them), saved and imported in Layout and rendered with SasLite..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_8.png

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_9.png

T-Light
10-24-2006, 04:21 PM
Sensei -

4 hair guides were used to generate SasQuatch/FiberFactory hair guides
I can see generating the guides for Sas being easy (root poly), but the FF hair system records a fair bit of information in it's single poly root, alongside generating UV maping info etc for the strands, can your modeler plugin do the same or does it provide the base root only like sasquatch guides?

Sensei
10-24-2006, 04:43 PM
I can see generating the guides for Sas being easy (root poly), but the FF hair system records a fair bit of information in it's single poly root, alongside generating UV maping info etc for the strands, can your modeler plugin do the same or does it provide the base root only like sasquatch guides?

TrueHair will have the biggest number of parameters controlled by hair modeling toolset from the all LightWave hair plug-ins, with brush painting directly in LW viewports with tool influence depending on radius.. Some of them are ready, but obviously you can't see them in action in SasQuatch/FiberFactory hair guide generating mode.. They can be only understood by TrueHair volumetric..

Example with 3100 SasQuatch's hair guides, generated from 11 TrueHair's hair guides..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_10.png

Pavlov
10-25-2006, 02:12 AM
nice. When do you think your volumetric will be ready to show us something ?

Bye
Paolo

Emmanuel
10-25-2006, 06:38 AM
Two questions:

1)Are these splines in Layout or frozen 2-point-polychains ?
2)Why not make this tool Layout-only, since LW9 si the first step towards modeling in Layout anyway ? get ridd of that clunky modeler-layout-workflow :)

Sensei
10-25-2006, 07:04 AM
1)Are these splines in Layout or frozen 2-point-polychains ?

It's working in SasQuatch compatible mode, so 2 point polychain was generated from 4 splines in Modeler.. Layout by itself doesn't show splines at all, they're completely ignored and special plug-in to show them must be written..

http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_5.png
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/TrueHair/Graphics/TrueHair_6.png

Currently Freeze Hair has 5 modes: Preview, Polygonal Hair, TrueHair Hair Guides (more denser splines), SasQuatch & FiberFactory Hair Guides (2 point polychain with surfaces properly setuped).. It's interactive, so you see what you get adjusting parameters in Numeric window..



2)Why not make this tool Layout-only, since LW9 si the first step towards modeling in Layout anyway ? get ridd of that clunky modeler-layout-workflow :)

That's currently impossible, maybe after 3-4 years since now.. Such tool would be like back to the past, and very feature limited, that nobody would buy.. Do you imagine Layout object Move Tool used for things like Modeler's Transform/Move/Drag etc. ?

Emmanuel
10-26-2006, 07:30 AM
Correct me if Im wrong, but isn't that what NT plans to allow ?
Modeling in Layout.I imagine it would be a tad more intuitive and interesting to comb and style hair in Layout and watch the stuff happen nearly realtime in Viper/fPrime than having to model in modeler, send back to Layout, render and if it doesnt look right, back to modeler, tweak, update Layout, render...
dont get me wrong, i appreciate all those efforts, but LW's architecture is showing some major signs of age, and that way LW will never be able to catch up with other hair solutions for other packages...in LW its pretty much stone age compared with C4D's hair, I think.
Everything should be moved to Layout for efficiency and ease of use.
Oh, and splines *do* show in Layout...via the custom object showcurve :), and if You watch the video about the new wind mode added in 9, You see that the wind object shows splines, too, AND motion paths are basically splines, too, that can be seen in the viewport.

Dodgy
10-26-2006, 07:58 AM
Well when NT have Modeler functions in layout sorted, surely his plug ins will be available in layout then. He might as well do it in Modeler for now since that gives more control.

Stooch
10-28-2006, 02:42 PM
looking good!

Sensei
10-28-2006, 03:19 PM
Correct me if Im wrong, but isn't that what NT plans to allow ?

Exactly! It's in PLANS... Do you want me to wait when there will be LW10 or LW11 and Layout will have properly working modeling tools?



Modeling in Layout.I imagine it would be a tad more intuitive and interesting to comb and style hair in Layout and watch the stuff happen nearly realtime in Viper/fPrime than having to model in modeler, send back to Layout, render and if it doesnt look right, back to modeler, tweak, update Layout, render...

Did not you see the 1st TrueHair video? You see hairs directly in LW view port, so no need to move back and forth between them for hair modeling.. Just changing rendering settings entirely in Layout.. And VIPER can work in Modeler, but nobody used it yet for this..

FPrime.. FPrime real-time previewer won't show either pixel filter nor volumetrics.. If VIPER won't give good results we will write FPrime's like TrueHair previewer, just for hairs..


dont get me wrong, i appreciate all those efforts, but LW's architecture is showing some major signs of age, and that way LW will never be able to catch up with other hair solutions for other packages...

Some other hair plug-ins also open additional windows instead of full intergration with 3d app.. TrueHair right now has the most integrated hair modeling from the all hair solutions..



Oh, and splines *do* show in Layout...via the custom object showcurve :),

I tried it and it shows just 1st curve from layer.. Adding more showcurves didn't help showing 2nd, 3rd and others..


and if You watch the video about the new wind mode added in 9, You see that the wind object shows splines, too, AND motion paths are basically splines, too, that can be seen in the viewport.

I can't believe you said such thing.. We're talking about LightWave's object splines that are part of layer, not graph editor spline's, motion path spline's and million other places where are used "splines"..

prospector
10-29-2006, 06:20 AM
So how much longer?
I need hair and FF looks like it will work great but wanna see yours in action before I shell out money.

tho there was supposidly a long hair vid, I don't consider that long hair as shown till I see it interact with shoulders (could be a cyl that the ball sits on), and slide around like in a shampoo commercial.


I have E.O.Y. plug-in money, to toss.....but need a place to toss it. :)

prospector
11-04-2006, 11:26 AM
Sensei
I started a thread with shoot me in it, will TrueHair be able to do what I am TRYING to get in that thread ????

there is a scene and model file there, if you could look at it and let me know?
Hopefully maby EASIER ???:D

DaledeSilva
11-05-2006, 04:55 PM
what's the link?

prospector
11-05-2006, 05:04 PM
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58555