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View Full Version : Incredibly simple... but how to do it?



Exception
10-13-2006, 02:54 PM
You have 5000 polygons. They're all flat and make up a landscape or a floorplan or something.... only... half of them have their normals pointing up, half pointing down...
How do you make all of them pointing in the same direction?

Align doesn't work...

Havn't found a plugin for that one...

Nice brainwrecker.

shrox
10-13-2006, 03:20 PM
I break thing up into chucks when that happens, them try using align. Sometimes it works, then you can merge points to get the piece back into one.

Sekhar
10-13-2006, 03:24 PM
Do a poly-to-curve and curve-to-poly in LWCAD.

Exception
10-13-2006, 03:53 PM
ha see, that last one was just plain smart. Thanks!

hrgiger
10-13-2006, 04:11 PM
Could you just turn on double siding?

Silkrooster
10-13-2006, 05:28 PM
Could you just turn on double siding?
I guess that would depend on if rendering time was an issue.
Silk

Exception
10-13-2006, 06:49 PM
Silkrooster is right, but for modeling operations, like extrude or bevel the whole landscape at once, it's also necessary.

hrgiger
10-13-2006, 07:23 PM
Good to know about rendering time. Does double siding significantly increase rendering time?

bryphi7
10-13-2006, 07:38 PM
yes......

geothefaust
10-14-2006, 01:05 AM
Good to know about rendering time. Does double siding significantly increase rendering time?


I'm my experience (albeit as little as I do have) it does. Depending on the amount of polys you currently have, it could really increase render times to unpleasant levels.

*Pete*
10-14-2006, 02:25 AM
I have used the perspective view for that.....lasso the polys you want to invert.

polys facing you should be selected and the rest (that are unseen in the view) unselected.

Exception
10-14-2006, 03:25 AM
I have used the perspective view for that.....lasso the polys you want to invert.

polys facing you should be selected and the rest (that are unseen in the view) unselected.


I'd rather not select 500 odd poly's by hand :)

edit:

Ah! I get it... hey that's a smart move too... as long as you're in a shaded view this should work.. I'm not sure it is foolproof though.

T-Light
10-14-2006, 05:01 AM
Exception -

You have 5000 polygons. They're all flat and make up a landscape or a floorplan or something.... only... half of them have their normals pointing up, half pointing down...
How do you make all of them pointing in the same direction?

Align doesn't work...
OK
I have 6912 polygons.
They're all flat.
Half the poly's are up, the other half down.
I pressed align to see where it failed, and it, er, well, it... worked :thumbsup:

Lewis
10-14-2006, 07:44 AM
Align works for me too, I made 10*10 segments plane and fliped intentionaly half of them. Every combination i try it works with Align. Your mesh may have some issues if Align doesn't work. Try to MERGE points and then polygons and after that try Align.

Aslo "trick" with selecting only up facing ones in shaded mode isn't working in my perspective view. If i use laso it'll select all of them since it's FLAT panel. If is a CUBE it might work 'coz one part would blocking another but since it's flat plane it's selecting all of them no matter where they are facing. LW9

Scazzino
10-14-2006, 07:54 AM
Align doesn't work...

Are any of the polys non-planar? That can make align fail...

If so, you could triple them and then align them...

*Pete*
10-14-2006, 12:24 PM
Aslo "trick" with selecting only up facing ones in shaded mode isn't working in my perspective view. If i use laso it'll select all of them since it's FLAT panel. If is a CUBE it might work 'coz one part would blocking another but since it's flat plane it's selecting all of them no matter where they are facing.


It could be that it doesnt work with LW9, but it did in the previus versions atleast....id like to try but as i am rendering now im afraid i dont have enough memory to start modeller :(

what is this "align" tool btw?...where is it located?

Lewis
10-14-2006, 01:12 PM
Align polygons - I'm not sure is it located anywhere in panels/menues by default (i'm more shortcut guy). It's tool which will ALIGN polygon facing of minority to majority of them :). It's assigned to HOME key at my setup for years now ;).

Exception
10-14-2006, 01:15 PM
Nah, align doesn't work. Align only works on simple and regular objexts. I find it the most flawed tool of modeler, it never does what it's supposed to except in synthetic circumstances. It always yells 'polygons already aligned', while the gaps are big enough for a three headed autocad monster to fall through.

Lewis
10-14-2006, 01:27 PM
Nah, align doesn't work. Align only works on simple and regular objexts. I find it the most flawed tool of modeler, it never does what it's supposed to except in synthetic circumstances. It always yells 'polygons already aligned', while the gaps are big enough for a three headed autocad monster to fall through.

Hmm if is a 9 milion polygons CAR model (translate from IGES to polys) "SIMPLE" object then i'd agree with above statement. I optimized and aligned polys on that model in 6 days with LWs Align tool :).

I agree that somtimes isn't best but it's not really that much flawed from my experiance :).

Can you show us OBJECT (only screengrab if not model) what gives you such problem ?

Exception
10-14-2006, 02:43 PM
It could be a difference in model types. I do architecture, where you usually have a lot of unjoined geometry hanging around. I am assuming a decent car model is a more or less set of continuous surfaces that line up. i think align would be more useful that way in determining outside and inside.

I am now way past the align stage, but for fun i'll give you a screenshot anyway. I hid some polgons to allow you to look inside of the monster.
The problem occured first when extruding walls up from a plan. the plan was imported through illustrator and was a very irregular, but neat geometry. Align failed, as it always does with me :)
Some of the other suggestions worked well though.

RedBull
10-14-2006, 03:05 PM
Align is definately not workable...
I just tried on 6 polys 3 flipped, Align says "Polygons Already Aligned"


There is an Lscript called select by direction or something similar.
And i too have had to search for Lscripts for something as stupid and simple as selection based on direction.

Selection based on surfaces and directions should be far better in LW.

Lewis
10-14-2006, 03:32 PM
Hmm, this architecture looks pretty crazy designed (in good sense) :). Do you have N-gons ? For last 4 months I'm working on architecture constantly (made 26 old style buildings) and i always keep them in Quad/Triangles no matter if polys I drill are flat or not. Maybe that's helping me to work fine with Align polys? I still have 11 more buildings to make for next 40-45 days ;).

What is the polycount for this project you are making ?

Mine buildings are from 10 000 polys to 450 000 polys (that's heaviest so far but usually i keep them around 150-200 K since i don't use textures which is important in this project since bump maps won't help in my situation).

cheers

Exception
10-14-2006, 03:39 PM
Um this is my personal design, its curently about 50k, im on a slow computer tho so can't really go up too high. I have tons of N-gons. This type of architecture becomes impossible without N-gons. orthogonal modernist or pre modernist stuff is fine but this deconstructivism is just all angles all over the place.

danielkaiser
10-14-2006, 03:44 PM
If you’re extruding in the +Y your original polygon must be facing in the –Y,
Otherwise the polygons will facing inward. See example.

Lewis
10-14-2006, 03:48 PM
Yes i know what you think when you say about N-gons in this type of architecture, I didn't ask properly , do you have (did have since you solved it) N-Gons in that flat plane you had problem with align tool ? I see those round architecture parts are full of N-Gons :)

About N-gons, you can solve them everywhere (i've built "impossible" objects in SubPatches and they all are Quad/Tris only as you know ;)) but it's just matter of time and need to have them in Quads/Tris. I tend to have then that clean so that I can transfer my objects in ANY software without fear they might have problems with rendering or so :). But It's PITA to clean them all sometime of course so don't do it if is not necessary :).

Exception
10-14-2006, 04:15 PM
Ill reply properly soon, but i just wanted to share the virgin render of this project's main gallery space (kray).

Exception
10-14-2006, 05:23 PM
do you have (did have since you solved it) N-Gons in that flat plane you had problem with align tool ? I see those round architecture parts are full of N-Gons :)

Yes. Each polygon is a room or a wall section. You use those polygons, carefully brought in through Accutrans or Illustrator from CAD, to make the model as fast as you can. So, yes, its was chock full of N-gons. You can't triple them either, it would ruin the purpose of the action in the first place.


About N-gons, you can solve them everywhere (i've built "impossible" objects in SubPatches and they all are Quad/Tris only as you know ;))

Yes., but see you are the god of cars and tris/quads, and all I am is someone who wants his building to show up ASAP. I wouldn't know how to work without Ngons efficiently, since Smooth shift sucks, and multibevel or whatever it is called nowadays is shaky, and more such stuff. The thing is, I am figuring out the use of the spaces, ductwork, lighting, handicapped access and so on out while I am doing the 3D model, this means that I'd like every flat plane to be its own separate polygon, or you lose clarity in the design process.
When I make just a building from plans and sections for a final render for a client, that is a different matter.

Lewis
10-14-2006, 05:30 PM
Yes i get the idea and those curvy panels of buildings sure looks better (in wireframe) this way than triangulated or made of Quads (wireframe is messy then but model is safer for all renders and FPRIME will be more happy/faster without N-Gons also :)). One of most used tools in that proces (making all Quads/Tris) in my arsenal is LWs native "spikey tool" and "Merge TrigonX" -free plugin :).

Will you be able to show us some renders of that exterior landscape+house when it's done (since it's personal project) ? I'm interested to see it :).

Exception
10-14-2006, 06:24 PM
Lewis: I think so, although the inside space is more important, what you can see through the cutout of the grass, and I showed you the first render of that... its the same model...

I love MergeTrigonsX too... Spikey though?! Why Spikey? It makes spikes...
for making a point in the middle of a polygon, don't you use 'make pole'?
Please enlighten me :)

toonafish
10-15-2006, 05:51 AM
when you combine edge relax with merge trigons you have a wicked combo that will create quads from the weirdest Ngons in no time. :hey:

EdgeRelax.p (http://www.intramail.ru/~dex/lwplugins.html)

Red_Oddity
10-16-2006, 03:56 AM
This might work : http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=811
(don't let the LW 5.6 and last update date fool you, it still works, even with LW 9)

Lew
10-16-2006, 05:38 AM
Align works for me too, I made 10*10 segments plane and fliped intentionaly half of them. Every combination i try it works with Align. Your mesh may have some issues if Align doesn't work. Try to MERGE points and then polygons and after that try Align.


Just for interest, how did you "unalign" the half the polys to start with. Just select 1/2 of the object then flip, or did you manage to flip every other one? Would like to know how to do the ever other one trick.
Lew