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Abbeamir
10-12-2006, 03:07 AM
Hello, (http://1unfinishedfurniture.blogspot.com)
How often do you visit church?
Thanks. :) (http://1healthyrecipes.blogspot.com)

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 03:13 AM
Whenever I want to look at architecture. I often visit churches when I go on holiday, but that also goes for temples, shrines, mosques or synagogues.
Otherwise I don't bother, as High-Pontiff of the Church of Techno-Animists it doesn't pay to promote the opposition :D .

As this your first post on this forum, I'm guessing you aren't interested in talking about 3D :hey:

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 04:52 AM
I like to breed my own small and furry sacrificial animals.

Really? You too? I tend to use them when trying to find a really thorny computer problem. Just be careful not to get too much blood on the keyboard, as it can make the keys stick and stains the plastic.

Iain
10-12-2006, 05:01 AM
Every time one of my relatives gets married or dies.

Coincides roughly with my suit purchasing schedule.

parm
10-12-2006, 05:42 AM
I've used the same suit for the past 9 years. It's been worn five times.

colkai
10-12-2006, 06:09 AM
I bought a new suit three weeks ago, and I've already worn it twice.
That's not right, it really isn't. :p

I was going to buy a suit for a wedding 2 years hence, which would of been the first time I'd worn one since a funeral 3 years ago, (which co-incidentally was the last time I went to a church).

Now I won't need to... because the bride, ( a much loved friend), has decided she's going to kit me up along with the groom and best man ...oh-no, the full works, morning suit, cumberbund EEK!

Just thinking, the last 3 times I've been to church have been funerals, which is fine by me. Don't like churches normally, creepy places, as for cathederals, urrghh, I get sick just looking at them, I dunno, I just do, too big, too OTT.

Now, a nice village chapel or such, very pretty to look at and great reference for building. Still got a list of church references I need to get around to building, along with everythin else I need to get around to doing. :p


Speaking of having to do things... time for a "Full English"...so if you'll excuse me for a moment... ;)

BeeVee
10-12-2006, 06:39 AM
Oh no, the bride is outfitting you? 8/ Please post photos of you in a chartreuse and cerise combination it goes so well with the bridesmaids, aren't they cute?

;)

B

kmaas
10-12-2006, 06:43 AM
Wow! I don't think I've ever seen a thread get DOUBLE off-topic so quickly!! That's amazing! :D

Bog
10-12-2006, 07:01 AM
I've used the same suit for the past 9 years. It's been worn five times.

You've kept your waistline under better control than I have.

*sadly regards the dotted line marked "Tropic of Capricorn" circling his chest*

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 07:02 AM
No, I'm sure we've had other threads that went off topic this quick.

What do you guys think?

colkai
10-12-2006, 07:08 AM
Oh no, the bride is outfitting you? 8/ Please post photos of you in a chartreuse and cerise combination it goes so well with the bridesmaids, aren't they cute?

;)

B

You think? I was leaning towards the purple strapless number myself, much classier! :jester:

Iain
10-12-2006, 07:08 AM
Has anybody seen my cup lying around?

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 07:09 AM
I always planned to get married in a li'l floral number myself.






and 20-hole DMs.








But that's just me :hey: .

BeeVee
10-12-2006, 07:10 AM
Yep, it ranneth over, so I had to decant. It's in the jug in the fridge now...

B

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 07:10 AM
Has anybody seen my cup lying around?

Yep, it ranneth over, so I had to decant. It's in the jug in the fridge now...

Are you sure? I thought he left it under the sofa.

Kuzey
10-12-2006, 07:15 AM
I see it, it's on Chuck's desk...now how did it get there.

Kuzey

Iain
10-12-2006, 07:17 AM
I blame the church meself.

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 07:22 AM
I blame the church meself.

Who? William Church (http://www.americandaily.com/article/7403)? He is too busy reporting on sexual abuse in Darfur to cause any trouble here

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 07:29 AM
I see it, it's on Chuck's desk...now how did it get there.

Kuzey

Do you think the vatican used it in their research into teleportation (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3811785.stm)?

Iain
10-12-2006, 07:32 AM
Who, Charley Vatican? I didn't know he was onto teleportation now. Talented guy!

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 07:33 AM
Is he still based in Edinburgh? I haven't seen him in dogs age. Give him my regards when you see him next.

iconoclasty
10-12-2006, 07:41 AM
I've never seen such a response from a spam post.

parm
10-12-2006, 07:44 AM
I bought a new suit three weeks ago, and I've already worn it twice.

Oh no! Did you have to go to court?

DogBoy
10-12-2006, 07:50 AM
"gone to court" is that a euphamism for on the pull? In which case i haven't had to go to court in quite some while, *sigh!*

ScottSullivan
10-12-2006, 03:52 PM
and I had no clothes deemed worthy, hence the (forced) suit purchase.

And in "The Invisible Man" Kevin Bacon had no clothes to remain invisible so he wore his birthday suit.

So it took 28 posts to get to Kevin Bacon.

:D

shrox
10-12-2006, 04:06 PM
I like to wear a suit while eating bacon from a cup.

lesterfoster
10-12-2006, 09:12 PM
The last time that I went to court, A bird sh*t on my face just outside of the court room. I looked up, But could not see any birds in the sky anywhere. I think that it was a sine that I should have worn a suit and gone to church instead.

DogBoy
10-13-2006, 01:52 AM
I prefer to eat Bacon off my suit on my birthday.

Iain
10-13-2006, 02:25 AM
The last time a bird sh*t on my suit I had to go to court for beating it to death with a cup.
I got off on a technicality as they couldn't prove I wasn't just trying to give it a drink but racked with guilt I visited the nearest church and stole a suit off a well dressed tramp. It fits well, stinks of bacon though.

BeeVee
10-13-2006, 03:40 AM
Beating a bird to death seems a bit harsh? I just wouldn't go out with her again...

Boom, boom

B

EmperorPete
10-13-2006, 03:46 AM
I don't go to church. I have no faith in a deity that is happy to let lunatics run round the world murdering each other in his name, and yet wouldn't lift a finger to stop my Dad taking 10 painful months to die.

DogBoy
10-13-2006, 04:17 AM
It fits well, stinks of bacon though.

it was you? you complete bas****, it took me monthes of counseling to get over that beating.

I still wake up in the middle of the night, sweat stained sheets clinging to me, screaming "mind the oranges, Marlon!!!". Citrus fruit should NOT be used that way, my friend.

You, sir, have a lot to answer for.

Iain
10-13-2006, 04:29 AM
That look on your face wasn't pain! And they weren't oranges :thumbsup:

So sue me (as they say in that big America). Time I got a new suit anyway.

lilrayray77
10-13-2006, 04:36 AM
I don't go to church. I have no faith in a deity that is happy to let lunatics run round the world murdering each other in his name,

couldnt agree more. I consider myself to be an athiest. It is people like bush, though, that really get me pissed off. All of his desicions are based on religion. He is closed minded and wont consider/accept that there are other religions. Thank fully, we wont have to endure his presidency for much longer. (just my opinion, no need to get an argument going).

DogBoy
10-13-2006, 04:50 AM
So sue me (as they say in that big America). Time I got a new suit anyway.

In that case, can I have it back? i miss the feel of bacon grease on my skin, that only a well prepared suit can give.



Wait a minute! Those weren't oranges? oh god!!

ScottSullivan
10-13-2006, 05:55 AM
couldnt agree more. I consider myself to be an athiest. It is people like bush, though, that really get me pissed off. All of his desicions are based on religion. He is closed minded and wont consider/accept that there are other religions. Thank fully, we wont have to endure his presidency for much longer. (just my opinion, no need to get an argument going).

I consider my faith in Jesus my strongest source of strength. I try and make ALL of my decisions are based on morals and teachings of the Bible. While I fall short often, it is what keeps me going.

I'm sorry if you disagree. Let's try and keep this thread civil by NOT bashing other people's faith.

Warm regards,
Scott

Kuzey
10-13-2006, 06:13 AM
Bird poo is considered good luck...if it hits you on the head :D

Talking about bush, didn't he say God told him to go to Iraq. The success of that move would make one think it might have been the other guy. You know, the one with a bad suit and smelling of ham :twak:

kuzey

Eisenhower
10-13-2006, 06:36 AM
I consider my faith in Jesus my strongest source of strength. I try and make ALL of my decisions are based on morals and teachings of the Bible. While I fall short often, it is what keeps me going.

I place my faith in Christ as well.:i_agree:

DogBoy
10-13-2006, 06:44 AM
You know, the one with a bad suit and smelling of ham :twak:

kuzey

I thought we were friends, Kuzey. I have never talked to Dubya, and to infer that I told him to go to Iraq is slander, if not libelous.

You will be hearing from my lawyers.


P.S. it may smell of ham, but it isn't a bad suit. Just ask Iain.

Kuzey
10-13-2006, 06:58 AM
Ahhhh........yes....exit stage right.....whoosh


:D


Kuzey

Kuzey
10-13-2006, 07:00 AM
whoosh...whoosh

Forgot the cup :hey:

whoosh


Kuzey

Iain
10-13-2006, 07:03 AM
That's my cup!

Kuzey
10-13-2006, 07:06 AM
All that running.....whooooooosh, here's your cup.

whooooooooooooosh..........whooooooosh.

This must be it...ahh ahh :D

whooooooooooooooooooosh


Kuzey

DogBoy
10-13-2006, 07:53 AM
Is it a bird?
Is it a plane?
No, it's Kuzey avoiding a court summons.



(does anyone else here think this thread is going around in circles? Church -> Suits -> Court -> cups -> back again)

shrox
10-13-2006, 08:01 AM
I don't go to church. I have no faith in a deity that is happy to let lunatics run round the world murdering each other in his name, and yet wouldn't lift a finger to stop my Dad taking 10 painful months to die.

The two are not related.

I am sorry to hear about your father's suffering.

Tim Johnson
10-13-2006, 08:34 AM
Sorry to hear about your dad, man. I lost mine, too, in about that same time frame. Lots of tough scenarios in life.

DogBoy
10-13-2006, 08:53 AM
The two are not related.

maybe not, but he is explaining his position. Respect his belief as you would want us to respect yours.

Now, can we get back to being silly?

-EsHrA-
10-13-2006, 10:15 AM
never-ever, nice architecture though.

:)

mlon

Andyjaggy
10-13-2006, 10:41 AM
(does anyone else here think this thread is going around in circles? Church -> Suits -> Court -> cups -> back again)

Don't forget the bacon. Mmmmm bacon, I think I have some in the fridge right now I might have to go cook it up, I'll be darned if I put on a suit just to eat it though. At least this hasn't turned into a fighting match over religion, we have had too many of those thread lately.

DogBoy
10-13-2006, 11:57 AM
LOL, how could I forget the bacon. Especially as i'm having it wi' pasta for dinner :thumbsup:

lilrayray77
10-13-2006, 01:06 PM
I consider my faith in Jesus my strongest source of strength. I try and make ALL of my decisions are based on morals and teachings of the Bible. While I fall short often, it is what keeps me going.

I'm sorry if you disagree. Let's try and keep this thread civil by NOT bashing other people's faith.

Warm regards,
Scott

I didnt mean to "bash" anyone's faith. I meant it more as religion should not mix with politics. I can certainly understand faith as a meathod of making you a better person. But people like bush who say they have morals and then invade another country just seems hypocritical. Honestly, all of my friends have "faith" and I respect them. Anyway, I never meant this as a offense, but rather a simple opinion. respond carefully; I think I am done.

ScottSullivan
10-13-2006, 02:02 PM
respond carefully;

???

In order to keep this thread in the "fun" category and away from the big two topics, I'm PM'ing you.

Dog: Pasta and Bacon? Yikes! Can't say I've ever had that combo! :D Enjoy!

Scott

Iain
10-13-2006, 05:08 PM
How the f*** can you eat pasta without bacon? G*d that makes me angry!

Lightwolf
10-13-2006, 05:30 PM
Dog: Pasta and Bacon? Yikes! Can't say I've ever had that combo! :D
Try original Spaghetti Carbonara once...

Spaghetti, bacon, egg, a bit of cream and parmeggiano/pecorino.
Make sure you use a recipe without wine (I was usprised to find some with wine) and make sure the egg yolk is added last, only heated by the cooked pasta (yep, only half cooked egg yolk)..
(This seems o.k. http://www.cooks.com/rec/doc/0,1726,151173-243204,00.html )

... and you'll never look back...

Cheers,
Mike - getting hungry now.

ScottSullivan
10-13-2006, 05:44 PM
I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them in a can, or with bacon... oh wait....

Lightwolf
10-13-2006, 05:46 PM
I do not like green eggs and ham.
Not much of an Easter bunny... or just picky? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Digital Tsunami
10-13-2006, 05:55 PM
This might help:

God Is Reasonable (Isaiah 1:18) mp3 download (http://media.ccphilly.org:81/Teaching/Topical/T23_Isaiah/SAM42164.mp3)
God Is Reasonable (Isaiah 1:18) stream (mms://media.ccphilly.org/Teaching/Topical/T23_Isaiah/SAM42124.mp3)

It's a study from one of my favorite pastors & favorite passages of scripture.
It's only 30 minutes. That's the length of one sit-com.
I would challenge anyone to listen to this first, understand the gospel, and then make a judgement.


For those that are interested in another:
The Suffering Servant (Isaiah 53:4-6) mp3 download (http://media.ccphilly.org:81/Teaching/Topical/T23_Isaiah/SAM43764.mp3)
The Suffering Servant (Isaiah 53:4-6) stream (mms://media.ccphilly.org/Teaching/Topical/T23_Isaiah/SAM43724.mp3)

bryphi7
10-13-2006, 06:22 PM
Can't believe I missed this one...:D

OK here is a recap... This is not a bash, just the facts!

If you claim to be Christian, that means you believe that anyone that doesn't believe that Jesus died for their sins is going to he11, and you are going to heaven no matter how you live your life... How convenient!

If that is not what you believe then you are not a Christian!

kmaas
10-13-2006, 06:25 PM
Not much of an Easter bunny... or just picky? ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Have you ever seen araucana (a breed of chicken) eggs? We raised some once. They have beautiful feathers, but the really cool thing about them is that they lay colored eggs. Blue, green, pinkish, etc. It's really amazing to see them.

They even have their own Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araucana

ScottSullivan
10-13-2006, 06:55 PM
If you claim to be Christian, that means you believe that anyone that doesn't believe that Jesus died for their sins is going to he11, and you are going to heaven no matter how you live your life... How convenient!

If that is not what you believe then you are not a Christian!


Bryan, you're close. I'll try and explain a small difference.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

(Ephesians 2:8,9)

This is the part you mentioned! However, when saved, you do good works not because you have to, but because you want to. You do it for His glory, not your own. I don't do works to be saved, I do works because I WAS saved.

It's sort of like an adopted child. He doesn't have to do ANYTHING to be included in the family. His parents did all the work, like God saving us. But even an adopted child will go against his parents. "Don't eat cookies before dinner." Well, if he eats cookies, he's still their child. But the child will try and do things to please his parents as well.

However, if a neighbor's child comes over and cleans the house, no matter how much work he does, he will not become their child.

Probably not the best analogy, but it's the one I heard that summed it up best.

Again, don't want this thread to change topic (like that hasn't happened!). If you have questions, please PM me so we can discuss it off the thread.

Warm regards,
Scott

webhead
10-13-2006, 10:54 PM
Can't believe I missed this one...:D

OK here is a recap... This is not a bash, just the facts!

If you claim to be Christian, that means you believe that anyone that doesn't believe that Jesus died for their sins is going to he11, and you are going to heaven no matter how you live your life... How convenient!

If that is not what you believe then you are not a Christian!

Don't paint everyone with a broad brush. Those aren't the "facts" for everyone. I consider myself to be a Christian, and I don't believe in everything that you state here at all. The bible says how to identify whether those who claim to be Christian, are really Christians, "By their fruits, you will recognize them."
Real Christians act like Christ. Unfortunately, too many people claiming to be Christians, do not imitate Christ and do horrendous things in God's name, kidding themselves that God doesn't care as long as they show up at church on Sunday.
God gave us all the gift of free will. If some people choose to use it to do evil things, can God be blamed for that?
If someone manufactures an axe for chopping wood and some lunatic decides to use it to butcher someone, is it the fault of the manufacturer?
I can really understand why many people have a bad taste in their mouth when they see what's happening in the world, often by people claiming to be religious, but I think their anger at God is misdirected.

bryphi7
10-13-2006, 11:31 PM
Don't paint everyone with a broad brush. Those aren't the "facts" for everyone. I consider myself to be a Christian, and I don't believe in everything that you state here at all. The bible says how to identify whether those who claim to be Christian, are really Christians, "By their fruits, you will recognize them."
Real Christians act like Christ. Unfortunately, too many people claiming to be Christians, do not imitate Christ and do horrendous things in God's name, kidding themselves that God doesn't care as long as they show up at church on Sunday.
God gave us all the gift of free will. If some people choose to use it to do evil things, can God be blamed for that?
If someone manufactures an axe for chopping wood and some lunatic decides to use it to butcher someone, is it the fault of the manufacturer?
I can really understand why many people have a bad taste in their mouth when they see what's happening in the world, often by people claiming to be religious, but I think their anger at God is misdirected.

So what you are saying is that I can get to the christian heaven without believing in Jesus?

DogBoy
10-14-2006, 03:22 AM
Wow, it's like a bad case of crabs. You think you have it under control, then you wake up in the morning and you're infested again.

Though I respect your beliefs, I'm sick and tired of having them shoved down my throat. Even a thread about a space tourist, A SPACE TOURIST, became a theological debate :cursin: .

RIP the green eggs and ham thread.

Kuzey
10-14-2006, 04:40 AM
whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh


LoooooooooookMmmmmmmaaaaaaaaI'mmmmmmmmmmmruuuuuuun nnnnnnnninnnnnnnnngooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnwaaaaaaat tttttttttteeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrr.


:hey:

Kuzey

Kuzey
10-14-2006, 04:48 AM
whooooooooooooooooooooo{is that oDDity I see down the road}oooooooooooooooooooo(I'll stop by and say hi........ahhhh....OMG. oDDity is pulling the other one and in public tooooooooo}ooooooooooosh.

I am :spam: in a can.

ps. Pork is against my religion so I'll take the green fish on a stick :)


Kuzey

webhead
10-14-2006, 06:59 AM
Wow, it's like a bad case of crabs. You think you have it under control, then you wake up in the morning and you're infested again.

Though I respect your beliefs, I'm sick and tired of having them shoved down my throat. Even a thread about a space tourist, A SPACE TOURIST, became a theological debate :cursin: .

RIP the green eggs and ham thread.

I'm truly sorry if I came across as "shoving my beliefs" down you or anyones throat." I come here to learn about CG and not to argue or to judge anyone. I simply came across this thread and read a post by bryphi7 asking a question which I do think was a "bash", because of how it was phrased, and I attempted to answer it in a calm, reasonable manner. It's not like atheists have never shoved their beliefs down my throat. Lastly, to the reply by bryphi7: That isn't at all what I said in my comment, and I'm not sure how you get that conclusion from what I wrote. What I was trying to say was, just calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you a good person, it's what you do and how you treat other people. It seems to me, you just want to be argumentative, which I really don't. Why don't we just agree to disagree and drop the subject, please.

DogBoy
10-14-2006, 07:45 AM
I'm truly sorry if I came across as "shoving my beliefs" down you or anyones throat." I come here to learn about CG and not to argue or to judge anyone.

And I didn't mean to be rude, so I apologise.

Kuzey: I can empathise, as an act of faith (a geas really) I foreswore sandwiches and fried breakfasts. I really miss BLTs 8/ .

Andyjaggy
10-14-2006, 08:59 AM
Try original Spaghetti Carbonara once

Oh I love that stuff, it is sooooooooooo good, and easy to make. I'll have to admit when it came time for me to decide to go to college it was a choice between going into multimedia or culinary arts. That was a touch decision.

Lightwolf
10-14-2006, 09:17 AM
I'll have to admit when it came time for me to decide to go to college it was a choice between going into multimedia or culinary arts.
Do the later in your free time... much more rewarding ... and great to break away from CG :)

Cheers,
Mike

ScottSullivan
10-14-2006, 09:45 AM
You could always mix the two. But getting butter out of a CD drive is a pain in the ***!

umstitch
10-14-2006, 11:16 AM
...i have yet to model or render anything in a church or other such clubhouse, but theres always a first time, i guess>>never tried praying and texturing either..

umstitch
10-14-2006, 11:27 AM
...does anyone else here find it strange, disturbing even, that we ve had a recent glut of religious posts?
...cant quite figure out how you go from 3d app, to jesus freakery, whats the connection?
..god can help you render your radiosity solution more efficiently, is that it?
..keep the laughs coming, in my neck of the woods most people are totally fed up with the various god squads creeping around, i reckon its time it was all put to bed for good, before jesus, mohammed and all the other pundits destroy the world.
..however churches can be great, i used to live almost next door to the Minster in York, marvellous architecture, but they want money off the punters just to take a look (never used to be that way)<<<<

lilrayray77
10-14-2006, 01:44 PM
Can't believe I missed this one...:D

OK here is a recap... This is not a bash, just the facts!

If you claim to be Christian, that means you believe that anyone that doesn't believe that Jesus died for their sins is going to he11, and you are going to heaven no matter how you live your life... How convenient!

If that is not what you believe then you are not a Christian!

Yeah, I have been told I am going to he11. What's most curious is it didnt mean the slightest thing to me...

It does get depressing though when people tell you you are a terrible person because you dont beleive what they beleive.

Bog
10-14-2006, 03:41 PM
I find it astonishing that it's the 21st century, we have nanotechnology and spaceships, and yet old men in funny frocks are still inciting otherwise sensible people to be unspeakable to each other over whose invisible friend is best.

Also, I got told off for eating my bacon out of a cup.

Not that cup, Doggers, get your mind out of the gutter. Sicko.

Who's for ham?

Exception
10-15-2006, 01:39 AM
Bog, you never seem to amaze me with your wonderfully pythonesque use of the english language. you must be brittish!

Frocks..
Ham...

Wankel Rotary Engine...

Bog
10-15-2006, 06:17 AM
Heehee :)

Nope! *waves US passport*

[edit] Though I have lived in the Uck most of my life, t'be sure.

Captain Obvious
10-15-2006, 07:07 AM
http://www.mrx.no/Iceland/church.html

Kind of makes me want to go to church. A coworker of mine went there just last week (or was that two weeks ago?). A dry wall manufacturer invited some 150 architects or so on a trip to Iceland!

tyrot
10-15-2006, 08:44 AM
Wankel Rotary Engine...

dear exception

i never thought i was gonna read that engine here.. Mazda's lovely wankel rotary engine ...1300 litre produce 264 HP .... it is really wankeling me:)

BEST

lesterfoster
10-15-2006, 12:21 PM
dear exception

i never thought i was gonna read that engine here.. Mazda's lovely wankel rotary engine ...1300 litre produce 264 HP .... it is really wankeling me:)

BESTcheck this out
http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/wankel-engine-animations/renesis-animation.html

Exception
10-15-2006, 12:50 PM
dear exception

i never thought i was gonna read that engine here.. Mazda's lovely wankel rotary engine ...1300 litre produce 264 HP .... it is really wankeling me:)

BEST


It is also a line in a monty python sketch, 'are you embarassed easily?', which is hilarious.

Bog: You've been converted. Sorry, no hiding behind any floppy pieces of easily forgeable paper.

Bog
10-15-2006, 12:59 PM
Bog: You've been converted. Sorry, no hiding behind any floppy pieces of easily forgeable paper.

*chuckle*

Irish on my mum's side, American on my dad's, raised in Blighty from an early age.

Terra is my nation.

Exception
10-16-2006, 01:26 AM
I love bog.... mmm... bog...
C'mere...
Are you embarassed easily, bog, my dear bog?
Here listen to what I whisper in your oh so teabaggy ear...

ey, where you goin?

Come back bog...

Oi!

Bog
10-16-2006, 03:32 AM
*sprintsprintsprintsprintsprintsprintsprintsprints print*

*dopplers off into the distance*

;)

Exception
10-16-2006, 09:31 AM
*smiles serenely, head tilted*

Oh... bog.... lovely bog....
I'll get you bog...

*twitch*

Love... bog... content manager..... boggy content manager...

You can't hide forever, bog...

*hahahtwitch*

Come out and play...

Medi8or
10-16-2006, 11:08 AM
Yeah, I have been told I am going to he11. What's most curious is it didnt mean the slightest thing to me...
I've been on a train through He11 (http://****.no) several times, and it didn't look that bad to me. I thought it would be more crowded, but...

Edit: ****.. urls are censured too. That's supposed to be h-e-l-l dot n-o ...

lilrayray77
10-16-2006, 02:00 PM
I've been on a train through He11 (http://****.no) several times, and it didn't look that bad to me. I thought it would be more crowded, but...

Edit: ****.. urls are censured too. That's supposed to be h-e-l-l dot n-o ...

hehe

hrgiger
10-16-2006, 02:27 PM
I go to church, well, never. Yeah, never. But I'm going to have to cut back through...

Bog
10-16-2006, 03:25 PM
I gave up Lent for sex.

parm
10-16-2006, 03:34 PM
Stop bragging you lucky bar....uard

shrox
10-16-2006, 03:46 PM
Can't believe I missed this one...:D

OK here is a recap... This is not a bash, just the facts!

If you claim to be Christian, that means you believe that anyone that doesn't believe that Jesus died for their sins is going to he11, and you are going to heaven no matter how you live your life... How convenient!

If that is not what you believe then you are not a Christian!

If you are human, then H*ll is not for you. It is for Lucifer and the third of Heaven that followed him in rebellion.

At the "End" you are going to be offered irrefutable proof, with enough time to decide what you want to do. At least as I understand it. How is that for fair?

bdmovies
10-16-2006, 09:23 PM
Ok, I 2 believe in God. But I don't wanna get into this debate. I debate on our high school team and finished 75 in the nation last year. So I'm gonna avoid people hating me by not going completely analytical, biblical and philosophical. I could debate w/ people on this 4 hours, but not here. There isn't really any clash, which is good, b/c then it'd get ugly. I've watched threads get to bad they get locked for theology debates.

starbase1
10-17-2006, 03:46 AM
One need only look at the history of Christianity to realise it is a massive force for evil and intolerance...

Try reading up on the crusades, (particularly the fourth, and the sacking of the orthodox CHRISTIAN church of Saint Sophia), or the crusades called by rival popes against each other.

'The Bad Popes' is another good read, with spectacular tales of debauchery and perversion. This mainly concentrates on the period round about the Borgias , but they were not the worst.

Alternatively consider the way that catholics and protestants took to burning each other alive, for their own good of course. Same for witches, heretics, schismatics, pretty much anyone who didn't play along with rich priests.

Too old for you? Well it does cover the bulk of the churches history.

But if you want more recent examples, take a look at the way priests have been meddling with young boys, and having it covered up by church officials. Or perhaps prominent self styled 'pro life' 'born again' christians have been starting wars, enforcing the death penalty, (though shalt not kill?'), and getting as rich as they possibly can.

Christians use thier 'faith' as an alibi, not a morale constraint...

Bog
10-17-2006, 04:06 AM
Can't argue with your examples, old stick, but my opinion has altered somewhat over the years - any large agglomeration of humans requires transparency and regulation of *some* kind, or it will tend to utter unpleasantness. Such is human nature. Large organisations require leadership, and as a rule the qualities required to gain that leadership are not ones you'd want to demonstrate to, eg, your dear old maiden aunt in Kew.

Being a nasty peice of work, in short.

The problem with religion is that it uses it's nature as a defence against exactly that transparency and oversight. There is no accountability for a religion's acts, because... erm... well, because it's a religion. Bit of a circular argument, but that's the way things go.

Humans being humans, though, if religion wasn't around as a banner to whip up xenophobia and unpleasant behaviour, then there'd be some other banner.

Green Drazi, Purple Drazi.

lilrayray77
10-17-2006, 04:32 AM
One need only look at the history of Christianity to realise it is a massive force for evil and intolerance...

Try reading up on the crusades, (particularly the fourth, and the sacking of the orthodox CHRISTIAN church of Saint Sophia), or the crusades called by rival popes against each other.

'The Bad Popes' is another good read, with spectacular tales of debauchery and perversion. This mainly concentrates on the period round about the Borgias , but they were not the worst.

Alternatively consider the way that catholics and protestants took to burning each other alive, for their own good of course. Same for witches, heretics, schismatics, pretty much anyone who didn't play along with rich priests.

Too old for you? Well it does cover the bulk of the churches history.

But if you want more recent examples, take a look at the way priests have been meddling with young boys, and having it covered up by church officials. Or perhaps prominent self styled 'pro life' 'born again' christians have been starting wars, enforcing the death penalty, (though shalt not kill?'), and getting as rich as they possibly can.

Christians use thier 'faith' as an alibi, not a morale constraint...

so true...

ScottSullivan
10-17-2006, 05:07 AM
Whoa boy, there it is. Eventually it would go from being a few jabs here and there and "I don't believe," to become "Christians Suck".


One need only look at the history of Christianity to realise it is a massive force for evil and intolerance...

Try reading up on the crusades, (particularly the fourth, and the sacking of the orthodox CHRISTIAN church of Saint Sophia), or the crusades called by rival popes against each other.


You're forgetting about the Muslim crusades that began CENTURIES before any Christian crusade. Beginning in 630 A.D. in Arabia, one had to convert to Islam or die.

Then, in 638, the Muslim Crusaders conquer Jerusalem.
From 638 to 650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran.
From 639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
In 641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.
From 643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
In 691, the Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem.
Beginning in 711, Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain.
A hundred years later, in 807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.
In 809, Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy.
In 813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country.
In 1071, the Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine.

Finally, in 1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099.

As you can see, only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christians launches the first Crusades.

This is not to bash Islam. This is simply stating historical fact, that most people will cite the Christian crusades, completely glossing over the fact that this land was taken by force from the Muslim Crusades centuries before.

Please note, I don't think EITHER religious crusade was justified. But the Christian church was fighting for it's existence in a land being swallowed up by the Muslim Crusades.


Christians use thier 'faith' as an alibi, not a morale constraint...

I cannot vouch for others. All I can say is that we must all try and be better. I begin with myself ("Let he who is without sin cast the first stone")

I do AGREE with Bog, humans are humans. If not religion, it would be something else. Just look at politics (on BOTH sides of the aisle). Power currupts. Absolute power currupts, absolutely.

It is NOT religion that is evil. It is human nature to sin and be aggressive. If you read the Bible, it does NOT advocate violence. Quite the opposite. It also advocates, above all, forgiveness.

PLEASE, let's get back to enjoying this thread and NOT insulting other religions. This was a FUN thread and I don't want to see it locked or deleted because of it turning into a shouting match.

Warm regards,
Scott

Bog
10-17-2006, 05:11 AM
It is NOT religion that is evil. It is human nature to sin and be aggressive. If you read the Bible, it does NOT condone violence. Quite the opposite. It also advocates, above all, forgiveness.


Same with the Qur'An. When I was doing a re-creation of one for the British Library, I asked the curator (your classic bumbly British civil-servant) where the bits where that advocated the hurting and the killing. Apparently, they aren't in there - as it is with Christianity's Epic Naughtinesses, it's all down to the leaders, and quite often editing the contents so that they suit the prejudices of the time. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", f'rexample: The original term was "poisoner". The King James version tweaked the translation in a lot of places to help the policies of the time.

Bottom line - humans. Wonderful, brilliant creatures. Capable of incredible compassion, beauty, joy, art, creativity and being All-Round Good Eggs. Flipside: Same creativity, compassion failure == right nasty buggers.

I think the trick to it is more a case of "What can I do that increases the net good around me?" not "What will make my Invisible Sky Daddy happy, and get me into his Super Magic Happy Land when I croak?"

*edit* To make my position utterly clear, one cannot blame religion for man's inhumanity to man any more than one can say "God made me do it", or "It's God's will". I'm afraid it all comes down to personal responsibility in the end, regardless of faith, belief, or anything else.

ScottSullivan
10-17-2006, 05:22 AM
Bog, very interesting information on your work. I was unaware of that specific detail. I try as much as possible to understand original text and how it is translated, which is why I use several versions of the Bible, to compare and learn. Thank you for that piece of information!



Bottom line - humans. Wonderful, brilliant creatures. Capable of incredible compassion, beauty, joy, art, creativity and being All-Round Good Eggs. Flipside: Same creativity, compassion failure == right nasty buggers.

I must agree with you 100 percent, Bog!


I think the trick to it is more a case of "What can I do that increases the net good around me?" not "What will make my Invisible Sky Daddy happy, and get me into his Super Magic Happy Land when I croak?"



Believe it or not, there is NOTHING we as humans can do that will make our "Invisible Sky Daddy" happy enough to get us into Heaven. It is a GIFT He gives to us. It's a humbling thought to know that we cannot do ANYTHING to earn a place in Heaven. When Christ died on the cross and suffered for US, he paid the FULL price of admission into Heaven for us.

This is one idea that separates Christianity from every other religion. Others teach that enough good works get you into Heaven. Christianity (when read from the Bible) teaches that we are all ****ed to the Underworld because we have all sinned. Only the grace of God can save us. We are powerless.

Please PM me if you'd like me to go into more detail. As I said, I don't want this thread to get too 'heavy.'

Looking forward to getting back to having a good time...
Scott

Bog
10-17-2006, 05:28 AM
I have a sudden, terrible craving for a fried-egg sandwich on nice, nutty wholemeal bread that's been savaged into big chunky door-step slices.

Ooooh, with a bit of bacon on it, too. Oh that'd work.

Kuzey
10-17-2006, 06:18 AM
You're forgetting about the Muslim crusades that began CENTURIES before any Christian crusade. Beginning in 630 A.D. in Arabia, one had to convert to Islam or die.

Then, in 638, the Muslim Crusaders conquer Jerusalem.
From 638 to 650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran.
From 639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
In 641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.
From 643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
In 691, the Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem.
Beginning in 711, Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain.
A hundred years later, in 807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.
In 809, Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy.
In 813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country.
In 1071, the Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine.

Finally, in 1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099.
Scott

Scott, those things can be said about any country in the world who wanted to expand like the USA, England, Spain, France etc. etc. and to call them Muslim Crusaders is just giving Christianity an excuse..a free pass if you will.

Most countries for one time or another were a great power in the world.



As you can see, only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christians launches the first Crusades.

This is not to bash Islam. This is simply stating historical fact, that most people will cite the Christian crusades, completely glossing over the fact that this land was taken by force from the Muslim Crusades centuries before.

Please note, I don't think EITHER religious crusade was justified. But the Christian church was fighting for it's existence in a land being swallowed up by the Muslim Crusades.

Scott

I think you are trying to bash Islam and your historical fact is off. For one thing Muslims and Jews are cousins by blood and both live in the same land and to say the land was taken by force is to say Muslims never belonged there. As for the Christians, they had no right for the land in the first place and if they did rule the land at that time then it would be as follows:

Christian Crusades first

Muslim Crusades second (maybe a response to the first Crusade, because it was and is their land too)

Christian Crusades last (a response to loosing the holy land in the first place)



By the way take a look at those countries today, they were separated by the Christian west and we have all those problems of war and what not. That's what happens when England, France and other victors of the ww1 break up the land and place their own Christian views on those lands :eek:

Take care,

Kuzey

starbase1
10-17-2006, 06:25 AM
Please note, I don't think EITHER religious crusade was justified. But the Christian church was fighting for it's existence in a land being swallowed up by the Muslim Crusades.

Warm regards,
Scott

Then why was it fighting against the ORTHODOX Christian church and not Islam?

And why were crusades lauched against other popes? And Christian countries within europe? And between the two rival centres of the catholic church, in France and Rome?

Naked greed, nothing to do with religion.

You clearly need to look at history, rather than the disney sanitised fantasy version.

paulrus
10-17-2006, 06:33 AM
Might I suggest the book "The politically incorrect guide to Islam and the Crusades" to anyone who actually wants a clear view of what happened. Political correctness has completely corrupted so much of history at this point.

If anyone wants to discuss Christianity and Islam with me in a polite manner, feel free to message me. This thread is so full of misinformation it's not even worth trying to get into the debate. However, I have read both the koran and the hadith and my wife lived in a muslim country for a year. Based on that, I think I can clear some things up.

I don't consider myself to be an apologist, but I've been studying apologetics for a year or so now, so I think I'm fairly equiped to have a reasonable discussion. But if it's silly stereotyping you're going to do, forget it. To me when I read some of the pseudo-intellectual Christian bashing things I've read here, it's no different than drunken rednecks using the N word while claiming genetic superiority.

digital verve
10-17-2006, 06:47 AM
People always like to look at the negative to support their prejudiced attitudes. For the record, my friends include Muslims, Christians, Mormons, athiests, bla bla bla.

Christianity has brought lots of postitives to the world. Including and suceeding in making slavery illegal in the UK. **** ( :) ), most of the major charities around the world were set up by the various flavours of Christianty. I'm sure many postitives can be brought up about other religions too.

Stalin massacred millions and he was an athiest. Hitler wasn't a nice fellow either. Does this make athiests or agnostis bad people. No.

People will use religion, an ideolgy or any belief to justify there cruel actions. Some priests (I have met them) just preach for the cushy job and hardly believe what they say (they get a feee house out of it) . Whilst others really sacrifice themselves for their community and do make a major positive impact in people lives.

So. Please keep things in perspective. Prejudice against religion, sexual orientation, race and colour are unacceptable in my opinion. I'm all for debate, but the prejudice some people on this thread is another matter. I'm shocked.

Bog
10-17-2006, 06:55 AM
Prejudice against religion, sexual orientation, race and colour are unacceptable in my opinion.

Hear hear! Any prejudice.

(Though 3DStudio Max users still smell funny) (;))

starbase1
10-17-2006, 07:52 AM
Stalin massacred millions and he was an athiest. Hitler wasn't a nice fellow either. Does this make athiests or agnostis bad people. No.


Not really comparing like with like there...

It does not make atheists bad people, because it was not Stalin or Hitler's atheism that made them persecute and kill on the grounds of race.

It's the religious who burn heretics / schismatics / unbelievers because of their beliefs. And anti-semitism in particular has been an ugly and recurring feature of many Christian doctrines.

I think you would be very hard pressed to find any examples of atheist or agnostics who kill because of their (lack of) religious beliefs.

The graveyards are full of the victims of organised religion.

digital verve
10-17-2006, 08:19 AM
I think you would be very hard pressed to find any examples of atheist or agnostics who kill because of their (lack of) religious beliefs.

Not really. Many thousands of Christians (and other religious folk) have been tortured and killed in China in the past few years for their beliefs, because it does not fit the current officials (lack of) religious beliefs. There are plenty more examples around the world.

People from all backgrounds be it religious or athiest have done terrible things. Those people are in the minority. Painting the majority with the same brush is not fair or right, as these people with religious beliefs have done plenty of genuine good in the past and currently for their fellow man.

I suppose we expect more of people who claim to follow a belief and we get dissapointed when a minority fail miserably with the consequences that follow from their actions. BUT. That is the problem with the person(s), not the actual faith/belief itself at least in regards to the mainstream faiths (cults may be another matter).

Anyway, I'm bowing out. I don't believe in blaming religion. It is the person who makes the choice to do wrong where the blame should be. If those Popes or whatever acted on what their faith calls for, then their actions would have been different. However, unfortunetly, human natures selfishness and greed means more to some than the well being of their neighbour or stranger.

CMT
10-17-2006, 08:20 AM
It was Hitler's strong belief in racial superiority that led him to his actions. Not necessarily a religion, but a strong belief. Most atheists don't share that belief, just as most other religious people don't believe in murder. So yeah, it is very similar.

Gods don't make war. People do. Those who murder in the name of religion are just as evil as those who murder for the pleasure of it. Especially when those religions value peace above all.

ScottSullivan
10-17-2006, 08:22 AM
Chill guys!

While I think we ALL agree he was twisted, Hitler was not an atheist. He twisted the Bible to push his own beliefs. Here are his own words: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." -Mein Kampf

This does fall into your belief that "the graveyards are full of victims of organized religion."

However, can we please just agree as several have stated: People are responsible for their own actions. They'll use whatever means of justification.

Cars kill people, too. Should we ban automobiles? Because a car was used, doesn't make it bad.

As Digital Verve said, it's the person. I do not understand why the desire to jump to blame religion. Religion is not the cause; human desire to sin is the cause.

Let's stop blaming Christians anytime the chance arises.

So again, I ask can we please steer back to the smelly 3D Max people (good one Bog!) instead of the stench being created otherwise?

Warm regards,
Scott

CMT
10-17-2006, 08:26 AM
So again, I ask can we please steer back to the smelly 3D Max people (good one Bog!) instead of the stench being created otherwise?


Sounds good. Religions have been persecuted enough throughout history. No need to do it on a LW forum too!

Tzan
10-17-2006, 08:45 AM
Let's stop blaming Christians anytime the chance arises.


I think the reason why this happens is that the people are really against all religions and they dont know much about the others to criticize them with equal time. They were either raised christian or raised in that type of community. Then we hear that christianity is under attack or christmas is under attack. When those people are really against all religions.


Excessive nationalism, racism and religion = bad.

shrox
10-17-2006, 09:02 AM
I blame 3D Max.

Bog
10-17-2006, 09:03 AM
Equality for all!

Hate everyone!

;)

digital verve
10-17-2006, 09:15 AM
Maybe Abbeamir is a 3D Max user. :devil:

theo
10-17-2006, 09:48 AM
For what it is worth, in most cases (and there are exceptions) the proponents of contrasting views seem to focus on the outcome, or result, of a conceptual framework.

Religions or ideologies (in this case) are subjectively cast into a particular light based on evaluations of collective human behavior attached to the idea.

In almost all cases this is highly unfortunate because we are left with quite immature preconceptions of the original idea.

The vast majority of ideologies and religions are at their roots, totally harmless.

Enter the fundamentalist-level collective in ANY ideology or religion and you are objectively forced to draw conclusions based on this influential collective.

BUT there is a HUGE caveat here- The fundamental collective is NOT the face of the idea, it just appears to be so.

In almost ALL religions and ideologies (Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Communist and a myriad of others) there are many extremely OPEN and BALANCED people who are VERY interested in alternate views and will debate these alternate views peacefully and respectfully and many (such as myself) will develop meaningful, life-long relationships with wonderful people who posses views that contrast their own.

The point? If minds can be open enough, an idea, religion, or ideology will NEVER stand in the way of the ultimate possession- friendship. Humans come before any and all faiths, beliefs or thoughts. For without us, the human, there is NO faith or belief or thought.

parm
10-17-2006, 09:59 AM
Gods don't make war. People do. Those who murder in the name of religion are just as evil as those who murder for the pleasure of it. Especially when those religions value peace above all.

Isn't Mars the god of war?

CMT
10-17-2006, 10:08 AM
Isn't Mars the god of war?

Sure. But he was called upon to help in times of war, not the cause of war.

DogBoy
10-17-2006, 10:33 AM
Gods don't make war. People do.
I'm sorry, i said I'd leave this thread but I have to rectify that.
Gods make war. people do also.

Zoroatrianism centres on the battle between Ahriman and Ahura Mazda: Dark and Light, Evil and Good, Chaos and Law.

Durga was created to destroy Mahishasura and his demon hordes.
In the Mahabharata, Khrishna counsels Arjuna not to worry that he is about to kill his relatives at the battle of Kurukshetra, as it is just the trancedence of the flesh, and he should know as he is god. To prove his point he shows Arjuna his divine face. Many of the participants were divine also.

In europe the Norse believed their gods, the Aesir, would destroy the world when the finally with warred their enemies the Jotun.

Or how about the greeks belief that their gods, the Olympians destroyed their predecessors the Titans in the Titanomachy.

The Irish believed their gods killed the preceding occupants of Ireland, as those occupants had ousted the earlier occupants in preceding invasions.

People make war, so it follows that their gods do too.

iconoclasty
10-17-2006, 10:35 AM
Gods don't make war.

Yeah, they prefer complete and utter genocide.

Bog
10-17-2006, 10:37 AM
People make war, so it follows that their gods do too.


People made gods so they'd have someone else to blame.

Discuss.

CMT
10-17-2006, 10:47 AM
I'm sorry, i said I'd leave this thread but I have to rectify that.
Gods make war. people do also.

Zoroatrianism centres on the battle between Ahriman and Ahura Mazda: Dark and Light, Evil and Good, Chaos and Law.

Durga was created to destroy Mahishasura and his demon hordes.
In the Mahabharata, Khrishna counsels Arjuna not to worry that he is about to kill his relatives at the battle of Kurukshetra, as it is just the trancedence of the flesh, and he should know as he is god. To prove his point he shows Arjuna his divine face. Many of the participants were divine also.

In europe the Norse believed their gods, the Aesir, would destroy the world when the finally with warred their enemies the Jotun.

Or how about the greeks belief that their gods, the Olympians destroyed their predecessors the Titans in the Titanomachy.

The Irish believed their gods killed the preceding occupants of Ireland, as those occupants had ousted the earlier occupants in preceding invasions.

People make war, so it follows that their gods do too.

Yeah, silly me to forget all the mythological references when dealing with historical data.

The last I remember, there was no historical proof that any god ever waged war on humans. Hence gods don't make war... people do.

theo
10-17-2006, 10:51 AM
People made gods so they'd have someone else to blame.

Discuss.

People who make gods don't blame them. This would be an attack on their own invention.

Gods are blamed by those who don't believe in them.

Neutral here.

DogBoy
10-17-2006, 10:58 AM
Yeah, silly me to forget all the mythological references when dealing with historical data.

The last I remember, there was no historical proof that any god ever waged war on humans. Hence gods don't make war... people do.

The last I remember, there was no historical proof of any god. It hasn't stopped millions following their respective religions.

Some would say that the battle of Kurukshetra is history, ergo their gods waged war within history. we are talking about the 3rd greatest religion in the modern world here.

Jim_C
10-17-2006, 11:06 AM
Somewhere a Troll is laughing.

4 pages spawned from his 1 and ONLY forum entry.


Ever poke a hill of Fire Ants with a stick?
:)

DogBoy
10-17-2006, 11:10 AM
Somewhere a Troll is laughing.

4 pages spawned from his 1 and ONLY forum entry.


Ever poke a hill of Fire Ants with a stick?
:)

Where have you been, we are on page 9 :D .

theo
10-17-2006, 11:11 AM
Somewhere a Troll is laughing.

4 pages spawned from his 1 and ONLY forum entry.


Ever poke a hill of Fire Ants with a stick?
:)

Soooo...how does it feel being a Fire Ant, Jim?.....:D

parm
10-17-2006, 11:16 AM
The last I remember, there was no historical proof that any god ever waged war on humans. Hence gods don't make war... people do.

What was Noah's Flood?

Plagues in Egypt anybody?

It's fiction, I know, so you are of course right.

DogBoy
10-17-2006, 11:26 AM
What was Noah's Flood?

Plagues in Egypt anybody?

It's fiction, I know, so you are of course right.

LOL, I was gonna say that if I were an Egyptian, I'd take gods wiping out of the army of pharoah as an act of war, but was worried some may thing I was being disrespectful.

I'd like to point out that CMT is calling the Hindu faith, amongst others, fiction.

Tzan
10-17-2006, 11:28 AM
Somewhere a Troll is laughing.

4 pages spawned from his 1 and ONLY forum entry.



Check this out:

Troll: The Provoking

http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue9/troll2.html

Be sure to go to page 2 and read the section: The "Skarka Clone Wars" :)

Jim_C
10-17-2006, 11:32 AM
Where have you been, we are on page 9

Longer thread view increases the scroll but lessens the wow!


Soooo...how does it feel being a Fire Ant, Jim?.....

Not bad. Simple life. Build build build.. It is frustrating being kept out of California like we are tho...

Jim_C
10-17-2006, 11:37 AM
Be sure to go to page 2 and read the section: The "Skarka Clone Wars" :)


Welcome to our newest member:
Oddity.


;)

So Bog.. You were just playing the Troll Game when you asked about the ISS News eh?

(and just my opinion, but using religion or politics to stir the nest should be banned within the game. Ammo is too easy)

DogBoy
10-17-2006, 11:54 AM
So Bog.. You were just playing the Troll Game when you asked about the ISS News eh?

Dang Bog, we've been rumbled.

CMT
10-17-2006, 12:04 PM
I'd like to point out that CMT is calling the Hindu faith, amongst others, fiction.

That's not at all what I said. I'm actually a Christian myself. But I can be objective about certain things. Parm had a good point about the flood. I'll think about it and respond. But your statement has nothing to do with the discussion, but rather trying to paint a bullseye on my back. Not very cool man.

hrgiger
10-17-2006, 12:10 PM
You know in 1997, 16,189 people were killed by drunk drivers. It's good to see they've really been cracking down on the problem since then.

When are we going to do the same to religion?

Bog
10-17-2006, 12:22 PM
So Bog.. You were just playing the Troll Game when you asked about the ISS News eh?

Oh, don't even go there. Nobody who actually cares about something can win an argument with someone who doesn't on the 'net, if only because the person who considers the topic important will eventually lose his cool.

That thread was a real disappointment - it just turned into a self-aggrandizement bandwagon for certain parties. It's mortifying that someone clamped down on Threel's thread on his mum-in-law but let that lesion keep festering on the board. Must have a word with the maid.

Anyway. To important issues. I have a wholemeal ham-and-egg torpedo, not vastly different from what I had for breakfast. Bad me. However, I have a bag of parsnip and black pepper crisps (that's "chips", colonial cousins!) to go with 'em.

Mmmmm!

DogBoy
10-17-2006, 12:34 PM
Anyway. To important issues. I have a wholemeal ham-and-egg torpedo, not vastly different from what I had for breakfast. Bad me. However, I have a bag of parsnip and black pepper crisps (that's "chips", colonial cousins!) to go with 'em.

Mmmmm!

Well, back by popular demand is my bacon pasta dish. Simple, but oh so scrummy (the better half insists).

Crispy bacon mixed with chopped olives, parsley, lemon juice and olive oil. Mix it all up with the pasta. Salt and pepper to taste.

It's nice to get back on topic.

Bog
10-17-2006, 12:40 PM
Oh gh0d that sounds good.

Mmm.

THREEL
10-17-2006, 12:54 PM
It's mortifying that someone clamped down on Threel's thread on his mum-in-law.

Anyway. To important issues. I have a wholemeal ham-and-egg torpedo, not vastly different from what I had for breakfast.

Thanks so much for the support, Bog. But, do I dare ask what a ham-and-egg torpedo is? It sounds like something that might taste good the first time, but the other times you retaste it might not be as great, or goes in good and comes out not so good. :D 8~ I guess it's the torpedo part of it that makes me leary. LOL!!!

Bog
10-17-2006, 01:01 PM
"Torpedo" = shortish (6-8") soft baguette.

[email protected] the torpedoes! Full feed ahead!

colkai
10-17-2006, 01:06 PM
However, I have a bag of parsnip and black pepper crisps (that's "chips", colonial cousins!) to go with 'em.

Mmmmm!
Sooo, does that count as one of your "five portions a day" for veg? ;)

THREEL
10-17-2006, 01:07 PM
"Torpedo" = shortish (6-8") soft baguette.

[email protected] the torpedoes! Full feed ahead!

Sounds like what we Yanks call Subs, or Subway sandwiches.

But ours are usually 6" to 12" long and filled with all of that great, fattening, artery clogging stuff.

Bog
10-17-2006, 01:10 PM
Sooo, does that count as one of your "five portions a day" for veg?

No, buttercup, the 400 grammes of mixed melon I'm noshing my way through might be a help, though.

Mmm. Melon!

;)


Sounds like what we Yanks call Subs, or Subway sandwiches.

Yeah, there's a Subway 8 feet from the door of the healthy-food shop.

Which is just plain unfair. BMT on Herb and Cheese Bread with more cheese, marinara sauce, jalapenos, black olives, double-meat, toasted in the toaster oven and a double-chocolate chunk cookie oh Gh0ds below....

*Bursts into tears over his tasteless sodding healthfreak sandwich*

Exception
10-17-2006, 01:38 PM
Tuna melt. Nuff said.

art
10-17-2006, 01:38 PM
Does any of you like fresh radish slices on sandwiches? I know I do

CMT
10-17-2006, 01:48 PM
"How 'bout a nice greasy pork sandwich served in a dirty ash tray...?" 8~

Know what movie that's from? :)

THREEL
10-17-2006, 02:43 PM
"How 'bout a nice greasy pork sandwich served in a dirty ash tray...?" 8~

Know what movie that's from? :)

Sounds like a few of the greasy spoons I've been to in my day. I've heard this line before. MMovie title's just not coming to me right now. It'll probably come to me, after you tell us. HaHa!!!

liquidpope
10-17-2006, 03:09 PM
The second greatest movie of all time... Weird Science.
The first and most bestest greatest would be Frankenhooker.

CMT
10-17-2006, 03:14 PM
The second greatest movie of all time... Weird Science.
The first and most bestest greatest would be Frankenhooker.

Yeah..... Kelly LeBrock would have made a nice sandwich back then....

She had some nice bacon...

digital verve
10-17-2006, 03:42 PM
Does anyone remember this cartoon from their childhood?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWMY4U1g4pg
:)

Bog
10-17-2006, 04:15 PM
Does anyone remember this cartoon from their childhood?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWMY4U1g4pg

Heh! Funny, ain't it - check out the Gatchaman intro (the japanese original).

Piles of corpses everywhere! I don't remember those!

Turns out for the western markets, most of the fighting was carved out, and the cheap R2-D2 knock-off 7-Zark-7 was introduced to use a cheap exposition to fill in for all the decent fight-scenes.

When I found that out, it hurt almost as much as learning that "Mna-Mna" by The Muppets was originall a track entitled "Mais Non, Mais Non" from a Swedish porn film.

Gutted.

Sorry. Was that too much information?

digital verve
10-17-2006, 04:28 PM
What's more, I believe that Zoltan was a transsexual (or something like that) in the original japanese version.

Bog
10-17-2006, 04:30 PM
What's more, I believe that Zoltan was a transsexual (or something like that) in the original japanese version.

No way. Noooo. Nah.

*hugs teddy-bear*

You're kidding, right?

(Actually, it's a stuffed plushy Cthulhu, but you get the notion)

digital verve
10-17-2006, 04:41 PM
You're kidding, right?


Nope. :D
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/classic/battle/trivia.shtml

Bog
10-17-2006, 04:43 PM
I'm actually more peeved about the emasculation of *all* of 'em, gorram it.

Ho hum. At least now I can own guns!

No... wait, I live in England. Um...

... oh, smeg.

;)

hrgiger
10-18-2006, 12:16 PM
The second greatest movie of all time... Weird Science.
The first and most bestest greatest would be Frankenhooker.


Frankenhooker is classic. I enjoyed it quite a bit more then Curse of the Queer wolf.

Qslugs
10-19-2006, 09:06 AM
There was a Frankenhooker movie poster hanging up in the film editing room at the school I attended. Is the movie really any good? I mean in a campy way of course. I've never felt compelled to go watch it.

Captain Obvious
10-19-2006, 09:57 AM
I have but one thing to say:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0274518/

liquidpope
10-19-2006, 09:59 AM
If you like Toxic Avenger, or Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, then you'd love Frankenhooker. I don't think it won any academy awards, but it does have exploding hookers, a radio-controlled lawn mower and super crack. What else do you need in a movie?
Did anyone know that Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is one of George Clooney's earliest films?

Jim_C
10-19-2006, 10:17 AM
Pootie Tang anyone?

Sine your kitty on the seppatown......


(And no it is NOT a drink for the 'astronauts' in Capt. Obvious' above post....Although that is an awesome pun) :D

liquidpope
10-19-2006, 10:30 AM
Wa da tay, my damie!

Captain Obvious
10-19-2006, 12:32 PM
Did anyone know that Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is one of George Clooney's earliest films?
One of his best, too.

ScottSullivan
10-19-2006, 03:13 PM
Did anyone know that Attack of the Killer Tomatoes is one of George Clooney's earliest films?

Close. Very close. He was actually in Return of the Killer Tomatoes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095989/), the 1988 sequel.

Great memory, though!

DogBoy
10-19-2006, 05:10 PM
And who can forget Billy Bob Thornton in Chopper Chicks in Zombietown.

Of that ilk my favourite was Piranha Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death, such great memories *sigh*.

prospector
10-19-2006, 08:41 PM
Yea, why oh why isn't Troma a big a company as MGM ???
They only made classic movies.

Qslugs
10-19-2006, 09:03 PM
I have but one thing to say:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0274518/


Captain obvious to the resuce! Gee thanks, I almost blocked that one from memory last time someone forewarded that one along :)

Qslugs
10-19-2006, 09:07 PM
And who can forget Billy Bob Thornton in Chopper Chicks in Zombietown.

Of that ilk my favourite was Piranha Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death, such great memories *sigh*.


And who can forget Renee Zellwieger and Matthew McConaughey in this classic gem: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110978/

Even banned in 2 contries!

liquidpope
10-19-2006, 09:15 PM
Nice one, Q.
One of my favorite "worst movies ever", The Dark Backward.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101660/
Judd Nelson is the man! Yeah, I said it.

Digital Tsunami
10-20-2006, 11:27 PM
One need only look at the history of Christianity to realise it is a massive force for evil and intolerance...

Try reading up on the crusades, (particularly the fourth, and the sacking of the orthodox CHRISTIAN church of Saint Sophia), or the crusades called by rival popes against each other. You're confusion Catholicism with Christianity. It was popes and catholics who did the crusades not christians. In fact christians where ones included in the killings of the popes/catholics.

Christian means Christ-like or follower of Christ. The Catholic church & many of its popes have been anything but christ-like. The Bible says just because someone claims to be a christian doesn't always make them one.

liquidpope
10-20-2006, 11:29 PM
That's great, but what's it got to do with crappy movies?

Digital Tsunami
10-20-2006, 11:34 PM
If anyone wants to discuss Christianity and Islam with me in a polite manner, feel free to message me. This thread is so full of misinformation it's not even worth trying to get into the debate. However, I have read both the koran and the hadith and my wife lived in a muslim country for a year. Based on that, I think I can clear some things up. I agree whole heartedly. There is so much misinformation here. I guess that's what happens when you take the media as your source.

I'd be more than happy to discuss this with anyone wanting to at least know the truth. e-mail me.

PS. Paulrus, that looked like a good book. I got one from Dave Hunt called Judgement Day - Isreal, Islam, & the nations. Documents everything to a "T".

digital verve
10-21-2006, 02:14 AM
The greatest movie ever made :devil:

"Santa Claus Conquers the Martians"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058548/

:D

starbase1
10-21-2006, 04:06 AM
You're confusion Catholicism with Christianity. It was popes and catholics who did the crusades not christians. In fact christians where ones included in the killings of the popes/catholics.

Christian means Christ-like or follower of Christ. The Catholic church & many of its popes have been anything but christ-like. The Bible says just because someone claims to be a christian doesn't always make them one.

Nope, I am fully aware that there are plenty of oher christian varieties out there. I think most would agree that the Catholic one was dominant for most of the churches history though, and it is well documented too. As it's centralised it's also easier to track where its going.

The only other serious contender would be the Orthodox Christians. Who had a passionate interest in theology, and for hundreds of years had violent riots over the nature of jesus with no sense of irony at all.

When the protestants split from the catholics they were every bit as keen to burn the other side alivem (I'd say that the injunction to turn the other cheek has been pretty much ignored by all rich or powerful christians).

More reently in the USA we have swathes of corrupt televangelists, the klu klux klan, and George Bush.

Still, who in their right mind would seriously try in live lier lives according to the bible?

I am thinking here particularly of the book of Levitus, which amongst other guff advises you to avoid shellfish, not to shave, not to wear cloth of more than one fabric, and to put homosexuals to death.

And surely you can't be selective with the word of God?

Nick

starbase1
10-21-2006, 04:07 AM
Nice one, Q.
One of my favorite "worst movies ever", The Dark Backward.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101660/
Judd Nelson is the man! Yeah, I said it.

I think I would have to pick Flesh Gordon as my favourite rubbish movie - I laughed pretty much all the way through!

digital verve
10-21-2006, 04:39 AM
Okay. Since this thread has gone religiously discussionised. How about best comedy.

Monty Pythons "Life of Brian", one of their best films imho. :)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0079470/

ScottSullivan
10-21-2006, 08:10 AM
More reently in the USA we have swathes of corrupt televangelists, the klu klux klan, and George Bush....
Nick

Nick, I've sent you a PM.

I can't undertand why some must continuously make themselves feel better by bashing a President who, in the last election, won fairly with the most number of popular votes than ANY other president in history.

Very subtle, too, lumping him in with the KKK. You know they have nothing to do with each other. It would be more appropriate to do so with Democrat Robert Byrd, who actually served in the KKK and was their "Exalted Cyclops" and recruiter.

Not sure why you feel you have to make these associations, but let's not let this thread go that direction.... I miss the Killer Tomatoes.

Let's keep this civil,
Scott

Kuzey
10-21-2006, 08:20 AM
You know, since Bush stole the first election and made the world a worse place to be...he could come out and confess and say, since he wasn't elected the first time around he has a right to run for the next one :D

Best comedy sketch of all time is "Boot to the head"

:D

Kuzey

ScottSullivan
10-21-2006, 08:24 AM
Ah, the truth comes out. It's sad that so many can't accept the fact that he won. First time the excuse was, "The electoral system is archaic." The second election was, "Bush lied."

Fact: Most number of popular votes than ANY OTHER president in HISTORY!!!!! Can't hide the truth that more Americans voted for him than anyone else, EVER.

I've gotta laugh. You guys make my day!

"You missed. Get in the first shot. Boot to the head"

Kuzey
10-21-2006, 08:29 AM
The truth is some people like to live with blinkers on :D

Have a look for a documentary called "Enemy Image" and see if you can get a copy...it should open your eyes.

Kuzey

Tzan
10-21-2006, 08:37 AM
Fact: Most number of popular votes than ANY OTHER president in HISTORY!!!!! Can't hide the truth that more Americans voted for him than anyone else, EVER.

I've gotta laugh. You guys make my day!


Fact: the population of the US is increasing every year. When you get more voting age people more people will vote.

He didnt get more votes than Abe Lincoln because he deserved them, he got them because the population is higher.

In a few more years that record will be busted again.

I love your facts, they are so easy to pop. :)

digital verve
10-21-2006, 08:43 AM
MY FACT: President Bush is the worst president of the USA in living memory. It will take decades to repair the damage he has caused internationally. His Human rights abuses rival that of the Chinese government.

There you go. Flame away. :D

:devil:

ScottSullivan
10-21-2006, 08:50 AM
Oh boy, here we go.

You "fact" is an opinion. I can say he's the best, but that's just an opinion.

The fact that this week saw the HIGHEST record set by the Dow? 12,000. All the bashers said this was the worst economy in history. But facts don't lie.

Anyway, if anyone wants to take this up, PM me. I really don't want this thread to divert from it's diverted diversion (oh how many times did this go off topic!!!)

Warm regards,
Scott

digital verve
10-21-2006, 08:54 AM
Most of the world can see that Bush is a evil trollop, why can't you? :tongue:

Hehehehe.

:thumbsup:

ScottSullivan
10-21-2006, 08:55 AM
Neither of us will convince the other. So let's get back to "booting heads."

Thanks for reminding me of that skit. Forgot all about it. Good laugh!!!!

digital verve
10-21-2006, 09:01 AM
Bush Jokes

"People are still talking about President Bush's use of a four-letter word at the G-8 Summit. It's not a big deal, President Bush using a four-letter word. Now if President Bush used a four-syllable word, that would be unbelievable." -Jay Leno

"President Bush's Iraq trip was so top secret that before he left, he lied to his Cabinet members -- told them he was going to bed early so he could read. When the Secret Service heard this, they said, 'We've got to come up with a better story.'" --Conan O'Brien

:D

DogBoy
10-21-2006, 09:08 AM
Can't hide the truth that more Americans voted for him than anyone else, EVER.

Well without bashing every American, it shows just how misinformed they are by their media. I find it frightening how much they (the US government) has propogandised their people. The US is reviled by almost everyone. They fear it for it's blinkered world view and rapacity. it's paranoid foriegn policy of the last 80 years has made more enemies then friends. It flagrantly disregards International law and refuses to curtail it's dangerously high fuel usage.

And now Bush wants to make space American :( . He has already pressured the UK to try and stop the European GPS system, because of Chinas involvement and fears that it could be militarised. As it is he has set it back several years.

Everyone is up in arms because Iran is trying to make nuclear weapons. The US backed Isreal in it's nuclear programme, a country that is a much bigger threat to peace in the Middle East.

Don't get me wrong, the UK is no better

digital verve
10-21-2006, 09:13 AM
Yep. The UK foreign policy has made me ashamed. The Blair Witch has done alot of damage for the brits reputation abroad too.

ScottSullivan
10-21-2006, 09:29 AM
Ok, I'm very curious about these posts. Please understand, text loses much emotion and can be taken many ways. This is out of genuine interest.

Why does someone's reputation mean so much? I guess I'm puzzled to why a country must have a certain "image" around the world.

Would you rather be popular or right? It seems that many (from many countries and parties) often get caught up in what they must do to be popular and lose sight of their moral compass.

Personally, I would rather be unpopular, but stick to my morals, instead of constantly change my opinion and always bend over backwards to please everyone else. It's impossible to please everyone.

The same thing happened to Reagan. He was constantly attacked for being a "cowboy" and intellectually dim. Yet his morals and decisions have placed him as being one of the greatest presidents of all time (American, that is). He didn't worry about this country's popularity. He didn't worry about his popularity. He had a belief and in the end, was right.

So I'm just curious why so many think that their reputation trumps internal beliefs. If you want to PM me, that's fine. I am very interested in hearing all sides on this.

Warm regards,
Scott

DogBoy
10-21-2006, 09:49 AM
Personally I believe in the right thing. I don't believe what America is doing is the right thing.
It is a narrow-minded and self-centred world view.

Reagan is viewed as the man who started making America what it is today: A bully with no regard for others.

ScottSullivan
10-21-2006, 09:58 AM
So, I'm guessing (please correct me if I'm wrong) that we simply believe in two different "rights."

See, I view the Iran situation like this:

Hitler made his views public in Mein Kampf. We knew his views on Poland from that book. Then he invaded. Little by little, Hitler made more and more outrageous claims and started taking more and more land. Look what happened. Can you imagine if he had had nuclear weapons?

Now, today, three quarters of a century later, we have another world leader who is making claims that Isreal should not exist. He denies the Holocaust ever happened. President Ahmadinejad has said this in public speeches!

So, do we sit back and let him continue? Or do we let history unfold exactly as it did in Berlin?

I study history and find the parallels very disturbing. Many would rather turn a blind eye than stand up for what is wrong.

Now, this is how I view that whole situtation. It is obviously in the minority, here. But I don't have a problem with that. You obviously see things differently. I see Reagan as the man who took down the Soviet Union (partly by outspending them). You see him as a bully.

Thank you for sharing. While we disagree, I do value your opinions. (I just feel that one day you'll realize the truth and you'll realize you were wrong! *wink*)

Warm regards,
Scott

digital verve
10-21-2006, 10:02 AM
Personally, I would rather be unpopular, but stick to my morals, instead of constantly change my opinion and always bend over backwards to please everyone else. It's impossible to please everyone.


I can agree with you on this and is how I think. I honestly think that some of foreign policy decisions of the UK and America have caused many problems and deaths to many innocents. This concerns me.

iconoclasty
10-21-2006, 11:27 AM
Reagan is viewed as the man who started making America what it is today: A bully with no regard for others.

Bash Bush all you want, but there's no way I'll stand here and let you attack Reagan.

starbase1
10-21-2006, 11:47 AM
MY FACT: President Bush is the worst president of the USA in living memory. It will take decades to repair the damage he has caused internationally. His Human rights abuses rival that of the Chinese government.

There you go. Flame away. :D

:devil:

Can't argue with any of that...

But wouldn't it be nice to hear just ONE Christian group stand up and condemn this bloodstained moronic hypocrite? It's all very well to tell ME that not all those who call themselves Christian follow the faith, let's see someone take on the self styled Christians. Here in the UK there are many calls for Islam to deal with it's extremists. Christianity should do the same thing.

starbase1
10-21-2006, 11:53 AM
Bash Bush all you want, but there's no way I'll stand here and let you attack Reagan.

What about the way he directly funded imternational terrorists? (Contras for one). And point blank refused to block IRA fundraising in the USA?

starbase1
10-21-2006, 11:58 AM
And Americans should be proud of this?

Well, Winston Churchill said that democracies get the government they deserve.

I guess I have a higher opinion of America than him...

Nick

iconoclasty
10-21-2006, 02:23 PM
What about the way he directly funded imternational terrorists? (Contras for one). And point blank refused to block IRA fundraising in the USA?

That's all gold. And come on, who didn't like playing Contra when they were little. That game rocked.

Digital Tsunami
10-21-2006, 02:38 PM
Nope, I am fully aware that there are plenty of oher christian varieties out there. I think most would agree that the Catholic one was dominant for most of the churches history though, and it is well documented too. As it's centralised it's also easier to track where its going.

NickMaybe I didn't make my reply clear, I apologize. Again, Christian means Christ-like, if someone is doing things that are not Christ-like, even if they label themselves a follower of Christ (like the popes/catholicism)...by definition, they are not Christians. Jesus said there would many that would come in His name, He said there wouuld be wolves in sheeps clothing, decievers, etc. So again, just because someone labels themselves a Christian, whether it be the Popes, someone on T.V., etc., and they don't follow what the Bible says, they liars and God will sort them out on Judgement day.

So again, the catholic church history is not an example of true Christianity, no matter how much they would like to claim. I can say that on the authority of the Bible & teachings of Christ. You've got your facts wrong.

iconoclasty
10-21-2006, 02:48 PM
Oh come on neverko. Let's be nice to the religies.
p.s. I'm feeling fat and sassy.

digital verve
10-21-2006, 05:09 PM
Can't argue with any of that...

But wouldn't it be nice to hear just ONE Christian group stand up and condemn this bloodstained moronic hypocrite? It's all very well to tell ME that not all those who call themselves Christian follow the faith, let's see someone take on the self styled Christians. Here in the UK there are many calls for Islam to deal with it's extremists. Christianity should do the same thing.

Well. Since you asked I did a quick google search:
http://recess-time.blogspot.com/2005/05/christians-speak-out-against-bush.html

http://christiansagainstbush.net/
(Warning: there is a grusome picture on that site of a head half smashed which some may find disturbing)

http://thriceholy.net/christiansagainstbush.html

I would say most Christians in Europe are against Bush policies (just a personal impression). The problem is the right wing fundamentalists in USA have a big voice. All religious fundamentalism is yucky :thumbsdow .

Captain Obvious
10-21-2006, 07:41 PM
I would say most Christians in Europe are against Bush policies (just a personal impression).
Heck yes.

lilrayray77
10-21-2006, 10:03 PM
The problem is the right wing fundamentalists in USA have a big voice. All religious fundamentalism is yucky :thumbsdow .

Yes, I find this quite unfortunate. I live in an area of the Pennsylvania that is flooded with "evangelical/fundamentalist christians". Because of this, people such as myself, who have completely opposing opinions , are somewhat supressed from speaking out.

So I ask myself, will people ever change? Will they accept a new way? Or will they simply unknowingly follow a fundimentalist path that has been drilled into their head's from birth?

THREEL
10-22-2006, 12:21 AM
Yes, I find this quite unfortunate. I live in an area of the Pennsylvania that is flooded with "evangelical/fundamentalist christians". Because of this, people such as myself, who have completely opposing opinions , are somewhat supressed from speaking out.

So I ask myself, will people ever change? Will they accept a new way? Or will they simply unknowingly follow a fundimentalist path that has been drilled into their head's from birth?


Hey lilrayray77! How's it going? You know what's funny is, us "evangelicals" have felt the same way you do for a long time. Since the beginning of America, most things in the American government were run through the Judeo-Christian view. Public schools are just one example. The weekly readers selections were scriptures found in the Bible, and we were taught to live by the "Golden Rule". In fact, school and church services were often held in the same building. But things totally changed in the second half of the 20th century. We're not allowed to pray in school anymore, and evolution is "shoved down our throats" as though it's the Gospel truth, even though it has been disproven on several occasions.

As far as being supressed to speak out, that happened to me right here. All I did was ask for prayer and support for my mother-in-law and family during her heart attack and subsequent death, which I got plenty of it and greatly appreciated it so much by believers and non-believers alike, but because a few non-believers complained about my thread, the moderators removed it completely from the forum. If they didn't like the thread or certain posts on it, couldn't they have just ignored it? It was a rather difficult time here, and all I was looking for was some support from members of this community.

As far as having Christianity "drilled" into our heads, that happens in every "religion", including atheism. As far as my belief in God goes, I'm who I am in Christ, because of what I've seen, and what I've been through in my life, and, most importantly, faith. Seriously, I have been "touched by angels" on numerous occasions. I was spared from death when I was riding a bicycle and got hit by a car. I was mysteriously pulled from a corn crib, where I had 4 tons of corn collapse over my entire body. It was only by prayer and someone pulling me from the crushing onslaught of corn that I survived that ordeal. BTW--No person was around for me to thank after I was pulled to safety. Finally, while I was working at the edge of a barn roof 12 foot off the ground with just a board across 2 hay wagons to stand on, I lost my balnce and was actually horizontal to the ground, when I felt strong hands grab a hold of each shoulder and pull me up-right again. Once again, there was no human around to pull me to safety. Believe me when I say by the physics we all live by here on planet Earth, what happened to me was entirely impossible. By all rights, I should have splattered my face all over the hard, unforgiving ground 12 feet below, but I truly believe, by God's grace, I was saved in that instance.

As far as our "preaching" goes, if you really research this, you will see that most of the time we are, for the most part, either directly quoting Jesus, or one of His disciples, or one of His followers like Paul. The problem is, because of "religion", some "believers" have even misquoted Jesus.

I would like to leave you with two questions for thought.

If you are right, and I am wrong, and God/Jesus is just a figment of Christians' vivid imaginations, what happens to you when you die?

On the other hand, if Jesus is right, and you're wrong, what will happen to you when you die???

Jesus said, not tHREEL said, but Jesus said, I AM THE way, THE truth, and THE life, no-one comes to the FATHER, but by ME.

I truly believe JESUS is my only hope!

Thanx!!!

tHREEL

digital verve
10-22-2006, 02:38 AM
I used to think that religions was a pile of b0llocks myself. The cause of wars and that they are a bunch of self-righteous pious gits. However, life has taken many turns and I no longer think that way. I don't say why here, because I'm just a user name on a forum. If someone knows you by person and know you are not prone to deluded mental episodes, then they will consider what you say. I know Doctors, nurses and professors (very clever and logical people) who have a genuine faith of some sort and they appear very with it to me. Science can't prove the existence of God yet, but quantum physics is going that way. hehehehe. It's all interesting stuff. :)

starbase1
10-22-2006, 02:56 AM
Heck yes.

I think that is understating it - I have the strong suspicion that a huge majority in Europe as a whole find the very idea of a christian right (pro life and pro gun, cut aid to the poor) contradictory.

Also I note that many americans tend to assume I am some sort of far lefty, once they hearknow my opinion on Bush. In practice Bush and the neocons are to the right of pretty much every mainstream right wing party in Europe,...

3dworks
10-22-2006, 03:12 AM
and - sorry if this maybe has been quoted before in this long thread

"religion is the opium of the people"

like karl marx said, and it is more than ever true today...

markus

starbase1
10-22-2006, 03:58 AM
I would like to leave you with two questions for thought.

If you are right, and I am wrong, and God/Jesus is just a figment of Christians' vivid imaginations, what happens to you when you die?

On the other hand, if Jesus is right, and you're wrong, what will happen to you when you die???

I truly believe JESUS is my only hope!

tHREEL

If you are right, then I will see you in ****. Unless of course, you managed to obey all the constraints of the bible in general and Leviticus in particular.

Ever eaten prawns? Grown a beard? Worn clothes made from a mix of cloth?

See you there.

The God of the old testament is a hideous figure, who has no claim on moral superiority over us. Consider Noah - if this garbage is to believed God wiped out every man woman and child of ever race apart from a 'chosen' few. And almost all the animals too.

Check the immortal words of Randolph Churchill , who at the time was reading the bible from cover to cover on a bet...

Kuzey
10-22-2006, 04:42 AM
What, no one saw the "Enemy Image" documentary...you guys have missed a lot. :D

Remember the toppling of Saddam's statue with the help of US army??

Well, that never happened. Yes that's correct, it was all a big hoax. One reporter in the documentary said the US forces told the news media to be there to see a show. Then the full video footage was played, there were no Iraqi people, no huge crowd, anything like that, just reporters and US forces...about a hundred people if that. The reporters played the part of Iraqi people trying to topple the statue, in comes the US army and helps them.

We see the American flag placed on the Saddam's head and from a camera within the crowd we see an Iraqi/reporter holding the Iraqi flag and jogging on the spot waiting for the green light to replace the American flag with the one in his hand. :D

Great stuff indeed and the funniest thing is I think bush actually believed it was true :thumbsup:

Kuzey

Kuzey
10-22-2006, 04:45 AM
The funniest one liner is from bush himself:

We don't torture.

doom....doom

:D

Kuzey

Kuzey
10-22-2006, 04:58 AM
Getting back to the serious questions and something I always wanted to know.

:D

When did pork become ok to eat and did Christ ever try it himself?

Kuzey

starbase1
10-22-2006, 05:09 AM
:D
When did pork become ok to eat and did Christ ever try it himself?
Kuzey

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

But there is a serious answer to that. The disciples who started spreading the word after the death of Jesus. The disciples taught something very much aong the lines of orthodox Judaeism, including dietary law, and and circumcision.

As they knew Jesus best it seems reasonable that this is what he taught.

St Paul found it very difficult to convince people to snip the end off their penis and abandon bacon butties, so he just dropped all the unpopular bits that were affecting membership of his club.

A tradition that continues amongst Christians to this day, making it the worlds foremost pick and mix religion.

Kuzey
10-22-2006, 05:19 AM
Ahhh....I see.

I knew it was mixed with pagan rituals to make it popular with the masses but I thought pork would have had a different story :D


Many thanks,

Kuzey

parm
10-22-2006, 05:25 AM
evolution is "shoved down our throats" as though it's the Gospel truth, even though it has been disproven on several occasions.

Care to support the last part of this statement with examples?

starbase1
10-22-2006, 05:43 AM
Evolution is a fact - species arise, species change, species die out.

There was a time beefore dinosaurs, a time when they were around and a time after.

Darwins explanation is a theory, and a rather good one.

The really odd thing that frequently strikes me when I hear creationist garbage is that Darwin was immensley more aware of the weaknesses in his theories than those who citicised him. And the two that he found most troubling were that he had no mechanism for inheritance, and that he required vast expanses of time, which were not considered credible at the time.

Now astronomers as well as geologists have uncovered superb eidence that the universe is billions of years old, and genetics is a well established science.

Creationists are a terrible warning of what happens when cousins marry.

Nick

lilrayray77
10-22-2006, 07:18 AM
Hey lilrayray77! How's it going? You know what's funny is, us "evangelicals" have felt the same way you do for a long time. Since the beginning of America, most things in the American government were run through the Judeo-Christian view. Public schools are just one example. The weekly readers selections were scriptures found in the Bible, and we were taught to live by the "Golden Rule". In fact, school and church services were often held in the same building. But things totally changed in the second half of the 20th century. We're not allowed to pray in school anymore, and evolution is "shoved down our throats" as though it's the Gospel truth, even though it has been disproven on several occasions.

As far as being supressed to speak out, that happened to me right here. All I did was ask for prayer and support for my mother-in-law and family during her heart attack and subsequent death, which I got plenty of it and greatly appreciated it so much by believers and non-believers alike, but because a few non-believers complained about my thread, the moderators removed it completely from the forum. If they didn't like the thread or certain posts on it, couldn't they have just ignored it? It was a rather difficult time here, and all I was looking for was some support from members of this community.

As far as having Christianity "drilled" into our heads, that happens in every "religion", including atheism. As far as my belief in God goes, I'm who I am in Christ, because of what I've seen, and what I've been through in my life, and, most importantly, faith. Seriously, I have been "touched by angels" on numerous occasions. I was spared from death when I was riding a bicycle and got hit by a car. I was mysteriously pulled from a corn crib, where I had 4 tons of corn collapse over my entire body. It was only by prayer and someone pulling me from the crushing onslaught of corn that I survived that ordeal. BTW--No person was around for me to thank after I was pulled to safety. Finally, while I was working at the edge of a barn roof 12 foot off the ground with just a board across 2 hay wagons to stand on, I lost my balnce and was actually horizontal to the ground, when I felt strong hands grab a hold of each shoulder and pull me up-right again. Once again, there was no human around to pull me to safety. Believe me when I say by the physics we all live by here on planet Earth, what happened to me was entirely impossible. By all rights, I should have splattered my face all over the hard, unforgiving ground 12 feet below, but I truly believe, by God's grace, I was saved in that instance.

As far as our "preaching" goes, if you really research this, you will see that most of the time we are, for the most part, either directly quoting Jesus, or one of His disciples, or one of His followers like Paul. The problem is, because of "religion", some "believers" have even misquoted Jesus.

I would like to leave you with two questions for thought.

If you are right, and I am wrong, and God/Jesus is just a figment of Christians' vivid imaginations, what happens to you when you die?

On the other hand, if Jesus is right, and you're wrong, what will happen to you when you die???

Jesus said, not tHREEL said, but Jesus said, I AM THE way, THE truth, and THE life, no-one comes to the FATHER, but by ME.

I truly believe JESUS is my only hope!

Thanx!!!

tHREEL

I do find this curious. As far as school goes... Have you ever heard of "a moment of silence"? Is this not a time to prayer. Now my school actually calls it "silent meditation", which I assume is either to allow diversity or to avoid law suites. As far as evolution goes, they strictly teach what is fact in school. They do not teach the theories such as human's evolution from micro-organisms. And in addition to this, there are always religious electives that people can take in schools to follow their beleifs.

Science: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/science)

I find this definition most curious, dont you? Your miracle, I beleive could easily be explained with science. As far as your corn "miracle" goes, it is possible that the "4 tons" of corn was evenly distributed throughout you body, as not to put immense ammounts of pressure on one area. You then probably in shock pulled your self out, and in the heat of the moment forgot all that was going on - you acted on instinct.

Anyway, you musnt beleive me, after all, no one is right, not me, not you, they are simply beleifs.

(oh and please dont take anything I say as an offense, I certainly dont mean to offend anyone.)

Captain Obvious
10-22-2006, 08:07 AM
evolution is "shoved down our throats" as though it's the Gospel truth, even though it has been disproven on several occasions.
hahahahahahahaa :lol:

you have GOT to be kidding!

lilrayray77
10-22-2006, 08:39 AM
evolution is "shoved down our throats" as though it's the Gospel truth, even though it has been disproven on several occasions.

I think better wording would be, "thought disproven". There is no doubt that evolution exists, in fact we can see it happening. It just really gets me angry when people, who have not even the slightest knowledge on the topic, go and start ranting about how false it is! Who are you going to beleive, some uneducated preist or a scientist who has done the research and knows what they are talking about?

starbase1
10-22-2006, 10:09 AM
Who are you going to beleive, some uneducated preist or a scientist who has done the research and knows what they are talking about?

Well, if the natural consclusion of the work of the scientist is that the bible is not true, the priest with a hotline to god will win every time, rather than the Christian reassess the reality of his invisble friend...

Actually that also makes me think...

Pretty much every priest in every religion claims to know what God wants, and tells his parisioners what is correct. Yet christian priests cannot even agree on if God finds women priests acceptable. Or homosexual priests. They all seem to conclude that God agrees with what they thought before. So gay priests think that gay priests are OK, womoen priests think that women prioests are ok, and homophobic swivel eyed rednecks carry on hating everyone who is different from them. If they cannot even agree on such a basic aspect of what God wants, I think it is fair to conclude that preists have no contact with their supposed God at all...

webhead
10-22-2006, 12:50 PM
Well, if the natural consclusion of the work of the scientist is that the bible is not true, the priest with a hotline to god will win every time, rather than the Christian reassess the reality of his invisble friend...

...Pretty much every priest in every religion claims to know what God wants,...If they cannot even agree on such a basic aspect of what God wants, I think it is fair to conclude that preists have no contact with their supposed God at all...
I had an invisible friend, once. He was a big rabbit named Harvey.
Well, here I am, sucked in to this again, when I said to myself, I wouldn't let myself be. I just can't stand it when people assume that anyone who believes in a Creator is a fanatic, or must have his head buried in the sand. I totally agree with you about there being completely different ideas among Christian religions about what is true and what isn't, and that they can't agree. However, in the Bible, Jesus even warned about that happening; that people would say and do things in God's name that were contrary to what the scriptures indicated, and what he taught. Don't think that God approves of all the killing, lying, assorted Church scandals, and other atrocities that we've seen done in the name of God. The Bible indicates such people are in the wrong and that they would have an accounting: Romans 10:2,3 , Matthew 7:13-23 , Matthew 24:4-5
Also, don't assume that the Bible is totally contrary to what science knows.
When other people of ancient times thought the earth was flat and riding on a turtles back or such, the Bible gave an accurate description of the earths shape and that it hung upon nothing. And, that was before man built ships that went into space. Job 26:7 , Isaiah 40:22
During the last century, it was common for medical personnel to go directly from handling the dead in the dissecting room to conducting examinations in the maternity ward without even washing their hands. Infection from the dead body was spread to others and thus, more people died.
Yet, way back in ancient Israel, God's law required anyone touching a dead body to be considered unclean, and that person was required to wash themselves and their garments. The bible was ahead of doctors from the last century in that regard. Archeological diggings have done much to prove Bible history to be accurate. There have been prophecies in the scriptures regarding things like the destruction of Jerusalem and Cyrus the Great that came true with amazing accuracy.
Also, don't assume all scientists agree, or dismiss the idea of "intelligent design, because, that is simply not true. There have been several scientists that, after close examination of scientific data, have come to the conclusion, that all this order in our complex universe may very well have come from a Creator, rather than from simply random chaos. The Earth is the perfect distance from the sun so we don't freeze or burn up, and has the right combination of gases to sustain life. it's being tilted at 23.5 degrees enables us to enjoy the change of seasons. We know that everyday the sun will come up in the morning and that it will go down in the evening. Scientists can send a rocket to the moon because they can count on the constant and regular rotation of the heavenly bodies as well as the regular laws of gravity and physics. The human brain is amazingly complex, and scientists still don't understand all of it's secrets. You think all this came about by mere chance, and I think, intelligent design requires an intelligent designer.
The same as a really good looking CG scene didn't come about by itself, but took a talented person several hours and great skill to create it. Remember, evolution is not a fact - it is a theory - and, an ever changing theory at that. Darwin's original theory has taken some serious blows over the years, as more scentific evidence has been gathered. Scientists do not know all the facts, and if they claim to, they are just as bad as some priest or minister who claims he has regular conversations with God over coffee. I remember reading years ago when evolutionists spoke of life originating from an organic soup, and If I remember correctly, the chances of a simple protein molecule forming at random in such a soup was a figure represented by a 1 followed by 113 zeros.
It seems to me, believing in evolution requires a little faith, as well.

hrgiger
10-22-2006, 12:53 PM
Relgion is a scare mongering practice created for the sole purpose of controlling an uncontrollable but weak minded humanity. God or no God. I believe in "a god", but I think the Bible is man made gibberish. A handbook written by humans to control the rest of them.
The republicans in this country use the same tactics to get people to vote for them. They scare the weak minded into thinking that they'll all die from the Spooky terrorists unless they vote Republican.

webhead
10-22-2006, 02:55 PM
Relgion is a scare mongering practice created for the sole purpose of controlling an uncontrollable but weak minded humanity. God or no God. I believe in "a god", but I think the Bible is man made gibberish. A handbook written by humans to control the rest of them...

I agree that religion has been used to scare and control the masses throughout history many times. However, I don't agree that the Bible itself was written as a tool to control people. The Bible is a collection of 66 books written over a period of 1,600 years by some 40 different writers in different places beginning in 1513 B.C.E. and ending in 98 C.E. The writers came from different walks of life, and many had no contact with the others. Still, the bible follows a central, coherent theme throughout. Many of the bible writers, first century Christians, as well as people who tried to preserve the bible or it's teachings throughout history, suffered and were persecuted, and in some cases executed. If Jesus was looking for power, he wouldn't have run away at one point when the people wanted to make him king. Jesus himself, died a horrendous, and painful death for his teachings.
It's a fact, people are capable of misusing and abusing anything to suit their own needs - no matter what it is.

THREEL
10-22-2006, 03:18 PM
I wish people wouldn't assume that because I haven't answered in a few hours I'm dodging questions. I just so happens that even we Americans have to sleep sometime, and those of us who do go to church actually went today. BTW--I thought that's what this thread was all about to begin with. Also, where is the person that started this thread. I don't think I've seen that name since the first post.

As far as examples go, I'll give you a whole book, but if you really don't want to, you won't believe anything it has to say to begin with. The name of one book I have is called, Unlocking the Mysteries of Creation, written by Dennis R. Petersen. Segments of this book deal with a wide array of topics such as Radiometric Dating, Unlocking the Mysteries of Evolution, Where Are the Missing Links, and More "Problematica" for the Skeptics. Animals such as the woodpecker are great arguments against evolution. From the hardness of their beak to the built-in shock absorber between their beak and skull to their tongue that wraps completely around their skulls to keep them from self-inflicted concussions. Woodpeckers were built to do what they do, jack-hammer their way into food sources. Their claws were built for climbing trees, and their tails were designed for balance whilst clinging to trees. If they did evolve, when did they decide to become woodpeckers? This instant can be found on page 117 of this book. Backing up a couple of pages to 115, I found the instance of the Bombardier Beetle. Inside its little body are two special, but separate chambers that produce two chemicals, namely hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone. This fascinating insect mixes these two chemicals and stores them in yet another chamber for temporary storage. When it feels threatened the beetle discharges this mixture along with an enzyme catalyst which causes this new mixture to explode in a would be attacker's face. According to Petersen, the hapless predator is left gagging in a steaming, noxious smoke as hot as boiling water, while the beetle scurries quickly for cover under the next rock. My question is how would evolution know to build all of these precision pieces in this little bug at the right size and the right time so that the bug wouldn't prematurely explode or sizzle? The answer is: there is no way evolution could do this.

As far as the "miracles" that I've personally had happen to me , the corn incident and the falling incident cannot be explained away. I gaurantee you that the corn was literally crushing the life out of me, and when I was falling, I was more than 180 degrees past horizontal, and it would be physically impossible for me to up-right myself under my own power.


Believe it or not there are scientists that do believe in creation and intelligent design.

hrgiger
10-22-2006, 03:32 PM
My question is how would evolution know to build all of these precision pieces in this little bug at the right size and the right time so that the bug wouldn't prematurely explode or sizzle? The answer is: there is no way evolution could do this.


How can you say that there is no way that evolution could have done this? Because it is hard for you to believe? That's not a very good argument. I find it hard to believe that Brittany Spears could appeal to so many people but as hard as it is for me to believe, it is true.
If you want to get right down to it, you could reverse the argument and say that a millions of species have died out(and more and more die out every day) and it had nothing to do with man desotrying their habitat or hunting their numbers so low that they couldn't reproduce fast enought to continue the species. They just died because they were of poor evolutionary design and they could not adapt. Is that Gods failings or evolution? If you pick God, I guess that means he isn't perfect and if you pick evolution...well, you can't because you don't believe in that sort of thing. So I guess that takes us back to choice #1.

I find it hard to believe that Jesus (if he existed or not) was the son of God. Does that mean it isn't true?

webhead
10-22-2006, 03:43 PM
I find it hard to believe that Jesus (if he existed or not) was the son of God. Does that mean it isn't true?
Just for the record, there are sources, other than the bible, that refer to Jesus as actually walking the earth, such as the writings of historian, Josephus. Whether or not you believe Jesus was God's son, is entirely up to you.

THREEL
10-22-2006, 03:53 PM
Just for the record, there are sources, other than the bible, that refer to Jesus as actually walking the earth, such as the writings of historian, Josephus. Whether or not you believe Jesus was God's son, is entirely up to you.

Amen!!! Species die out because of the imperfection of man, not the perfection of God. God made us perfect, but we screwed that up too. Why? Because God gave us free will. If you want to believe, you will. If you don't, you won't.

hrgiger
10-22-2006, 03:55 PM
Amen!!! Species die out because of the imperfection of man, not the perfection of God. God made us perfect, but we screwed that up too. Why? Because God gave us free will. If you want to believe, you will. If you don't, you won't.

You completely ignored the argument. Many many many species have died out on their own that have had nothing to do with mankind, natural disasters (comets), or anything else but their own design. Why does that have anything to do with the imperfection of man?

parm
10-22-2006, 04:16 PM
It seems to me, believing in evolution requires a little faith, as well.

Not so.

Scientific theories have to be backed up by solid evidence.

No one attacks and punishes a flawed theory, harder than other scientists.

Captain Obvious
10-22-2006, 04:36 PM
I would just like to point out that evolution, in the sense that species change over time as a result of sexual reproduction and the mutation that it brings, is a fact you CANNOT deny.

However, the idea that humans evolved from monkeys or whatever, THAT is just a theory with no real proof.



The fact that evolution exists, which it does, does not necessarily disprove creationism or intelligent design, as such. There are computer programs that can modify their own code after they've been compiled. In a similar line of thought, it's not that big a stretch to imagine a "supreme being" creating something capable of changing over time without any divine intervention. Thusly, "intelligent design" does not disprove evolution, and evolution does not disprove "intelligent design." They are not mutually exclusive.



Whether or not man came from monkies is quite frankly not all that interesting. But if you deny the fact that evolution exists, you need a head examination. You want some very basic proof of evolution? Breeding! Breeding exists, it's been practiced for tens of thousands of years. We've managed to turn wolves into bulldogs through breeding. So, how does that prove evolution exists? Simple:

Evolution is the gradual change of a species because individuals with certain traits are more capable of producing fertile offspring than others. Whether it's "Mother Earth" or a dog breeder deciding which traits to favor has little bearing on this debate: It still proves, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that evolution exists. Breeding would not be possible without evolution, since each and every generation would be exactly the same as the previous one.

hrgiger
10-22-2006, 04:40 PM
Some news from earlier this year:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/03/0327_060327_skull.html

Sarford
10-22-2006, 04:47 PM
Not so.

Scientific theories have to be backed up by solid evidence.

No one attacks and punishes a flawed theory, harder than other scientists.

Even science is based on axiomas, meaning its just another way to interpete life. Science is no truth, truth doesn't exist, there is no other truth than your own.

think about it.

webhead
10-22-2006, 04:49 PM
Not so.

Scientific theories have to be backed up by solid evidence.

No one attacks and punishes a flawed theory, harder than other scientists.
Here we go. I should have walked away. I'm glad you recognize scientists can have flawed theories. I even remember reading in more than one scientific journal that, occasionally results have even been faked, so as not to lose funding. As I said previously, evolution is still just a theory - based on what scientists have to go on at the time. A theory that changes and develops as more knowledge is gained. Some theories are thrown out and others adopted as data is gathered and analyzed. Do scientists have every piece of the puzzle at their disposal, or are they making theories based simply on what evidence they have at hand, like a detective trying to solve a crime? Have scientists proven without a doubt the Big Bang theory?
What about the staggering amount of improbability for all the parts needed to come together perfectly to form an organic soup that life is supposed to have sprang from? Tell me exactly how and when life began word for word if science has without a doubt proven every single step down to the last detail. It hasn't - and you can't. Neither can I. So, I stand by what I said, like those that believe in a Creator, those that believe in evolution have to have some faith to believe that science is correct when it says we evolved from nothing. Oh, and the next time you think Lightwave needs a new feature or bug fix; why bother asking the fine people at Newtek about it, I'm sure the software will eventually evolve into what it needs to be without the need for any talented programers. Shall we just agree to disagree and stop wasting each others time on this stuff?

webhead
10-22-2006, 04:56 PM
Sorry, I spelled programmers wrong and didn't want to wait 10 million years for it to correct itself, so I'm correcting it now.

parm
10-22-2006, 05:22 PM
Even science is based on axiomas, meaning its just another way to interpete life. Science is no truth, truth doesn't exist, there is no other truth than your own.

think about it.

Whatever the "True" nature of existence may be.

It's hard to argue. That it's not experienced by humans in a sensual way. And it's Science that currently gives us the most compelling means to order and make sense of observed natural phenomena.

By comparison. As a provider of metaphores for reality, Religion these days seems somewhat limited.

hrgiger
10-22-2006, 05:38 PM
Even science is based on axiomas, meaning its just another way to interpete life. Science is no truth, truth doesn't exist, there is no other truth than your own.

think about it.

Hold a rock in your hand and then let it go. Congratulations, you've just proven the science of gravity. Truth, scientifically speaking, is all around you.
Read to me from the bible, strike me with Lightning, save my life, the existance of God has still not been proven.
See the difference?

Captain Obvious
10-22-2006, 05:46 PM
There are two kinds of scientific proof:

1: Empiric proof. This is the kind where we observe a phenomenon. Like hrgiger's rock falling. The basic principle for empiric proof is that reality is as we percieve it, more or less. Empiric evidence ignores the possibility of life being an illusion, which is certainly a possibility. The question of whether life's just an illusion is a philosophical question, not a scientific one.

2: Logical evidence.





As I said previously, evolution is still just a theory - based on what scientists have to go on at the time.
Skipped my post, did you? That's ok, you can always read it now. :)

parm
10-22-2006, 05:47 PM
I'm glad you recognize scientists can have flawed theories.

That is the great strength Science. It can change in the light of new knowledge. Old axioms are ruthlessly cast aside when they no longer hold up. It's theories can be tested, supported or disproved.

Religious ideas, once formed, are presented as eternal and infallible truths. It's this rigidness of thought that is their greatest failing.

hrgiger
10-22-2006, 05:48 PM
Oh, and the next time you think Lightwave needs a new feature or bug fix; why bother asking the fine people at Newtek about it, I'm sure the software will eventually evolve into what it needs to be without the need for any talented programers.

Since when is a non-organic man made creation such as computer software become a proper analogy for the development of a living species?

webhead
10-22-2006, 06:09 PM
Since when is a non-organic man made creation such as computer software become a proper analogy for the development of a living species?
You're right. You can't really compare the two. Even something as simple as an elastic, needed a designer. It is so much easier to believe that something as complex as the human brain, or the eye, or the human reproduction system, or the vast universe came about by chance rather than something simpler like software.
When you see a nice floral arrangement in a garden, or well-trimmed bushes around a home, do you say, "Wow, I wonder how that happened? I didn't see somebody plant those flowers, or trim those bushes, so it must have happened all by itself!" Have you ever seen the odds required for some of these things to have happened just as science theorizes they did? Astronomical!
Also, man discovered the law of gravity, he didn't actually invent it as you practically imply. Amazing how reliable gravity is too, almost like it was planned.
So, shall we continue to argue back and forth about this until one of us changes their mind, or should we pick a safe topic - One we all can agree on, like politics, or which software is the best.

lilrayray77
10-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Hold a rock in your hand and then let it go. Congratulations, you've just proven the science of gravity. Truth, scientifically speaking, is all around you.
Read to me from the bible, strike me with Lightning, save my life, the existance of God has still not been proven.
See the difference?

Yep.. Yep.. Yep!



"The Missing Link": Oh no! a missing link, where ever did it go? This is probably the comment that I hate the most. I suppose, because we have yet to prove something scientificaly, it does not exist? Now apply that to religion.

Now for science. The definition of science is the "state of knowing" (webster dictionary). You can not scientificaly prove religion. Hmmm, now use the law of detachment on these two statements.

Now a question I have had for a bit; perhaps my fellow christian lightwavers can answer. Why do some preists molest young children if they are so homophobic? Always struck me as odd.

Lets keep this going, I am learning a lot!

Captain Obvious
10-22-2006, 06:21 PM
A religious person is strolling along the beach, and he finds a watch lying in the sand. She assumes that the watch was created by a watchmaker, and decides to go find him.

A devouted atheist is walking down the road, and finds a coke bottle. She assumes it has occured naturally.

A scientific-minded person is walking across a field, and finds a cellular phone. She assumes nothing, but rather investigates whether or not it was possible for it to be created naturally, or if someone made it, or if it randomly materialised out of thin air, or whatever theory she can come up with. If empirical evidence is found for one of the theories, she will know how the phone came to be there. If no such evidence is found, she'll keep looking until she dies.




See what I'm getting at?

webhead
10-22-2006, 07:23 PM
Yep.. Yep.. Yep!
Now a question I have had for a bit; perhaps my fellow christian lightwavers can answer. Why do some preists molest young children if they are so homophobic? Always struck me as odd.

Lets keep this going, I am learning a lot! First off, no one in their right mind will defend child molestation - whatever their faith - No one! I think what those priests did; using their position to harm children is inexcusable, and I've never thought anything different. Why should I be held accountable to answer for the Catholic Church, or any of the priests that committed crimes against children. Believe it or not, not all Christians are molesters, not all scientists are atheists, and not all Germans are like Hitler. You place the blame for this on all Christians of all faiths? What do you think, molesters can't be atheists, too? If some atheist kills someone, does that make all atheists murderers. What about what's going on in government with the pages? Atrocities have been committed by both people claiming to be religious, by atheists, and even in the name of science. What about the terrible scientific experiments done to people in concentration camps or in other situations - or atomic bombs created by scientists that killed people during WW2, and the threat of nuclear destruction, or biological weapons that face man today? Does that mean all science and scientists are evil or a threat to mankind? I should have listened to my gut, and avoided wasting time on this. That's it. I'm through with this thread, it's officially jumped the shark.

webhead
10-22-2006, 07:27 PM
Yep.. Yep.. Yep!
Now a question I have had for a bit; perhaps my fellow christian lightwavers can answer. Why do some preists molest young children if they are so homophobic? Always struck me as odd.

Lets keep this going, I am learning a lot! First off, no one in their right mind will defend child molestation - whatever their faith - No one! I think what those priests did; using their position to harm children is inexcusable, and I've never thought anything different. Why should I be held accountable to answer for the Catholic Church, or any of the priests that committed crimes against children? Believe it or not, not all Christians are molesters, not all scientists are atheists, and not all Germans are like Hitler. You place the blame for this on all Christians of all faiths? What do you think, molesters can't be atheists, too? If some atheist kills someone, does that make all atheists murderers. What about what's going on in government with the pages? Atrocities have been committed by both people claiming to be religious, by atheists, and even in the name of science. What about the terrible scientific experiments done to people in concentration camps or in other situations - or atomic bombs created by scientists that killed people during WW2, and the threat of nuclear destruction, or biological weapons that face man today? Does that mean all science and scientists are evil or a threat to mankind? I should have listened to my gut, and avoided wasting time on this. That's it. I'm through with this thread, it's officially jumped the shark.

Vincenzo
10-22-2006, 07:54 PM
Athiests are the biggest hypocrits of all! If anyone objects to thier non beliefs they make childish attacks against them and call them ignorant. Perhaps they are threatened by other people having beliefs and ideals, or life having a meaning.

Athiests also lie alot saying that science somehow invalidates religion. If this is so, why do most scientist believe in God. Perhaps many scientist see an intelligent design in the universe?

Sincerely, Vincent Burnett Ph.D. Solid State Physics

lilrayray77
10-22-2006, 08:07 PM
First off, no one in their right mind will defend child molestation - whatever their faith - No one! I think what those priests did; using their position to harm children is inexcusable, and I've never thought anything different. Why should I be held accountable to answer for the Catholic Church, or any of the priests that committed crimes against children? Believe it or not, not all Christians are molesters, not all scientists are atheists, and not all Germans are like Hitler. You place the blame for this on all Christians of all faiths? What do you think, molesters can't be atheists, too? If some atheist kills someone, does that make all atheists murderers. What about what's going on in government with the pages? Atrocities have been committed by both people claiming to be religious, by atheists, and even in the name of science. What about the terrible scientific experiments done to people in concentration camps or in other situations - or atomic bombs created by scientists that killed people during WW2, and the threat of nuclear destruction, or biological weapons that face man today? Does that mean all science and scientists are evil or a threat to mankind? I should have listened to my gut, and avoided wasting time on this. That's it. I'm through with this thread, it's officially jumped the shark.

Hey, I did not mean for such a comment to reflect on all christianity, it was humor, haha, get it? I am extremely sorry if I offended you. I will remove the comment.



Athiests are the biggest hypocrits of all! If anyone objects to thier non beliefs they make childish attacks against them and call them ignorant. Perhaps they are threatened by other people having beliefs and ideals, or life having a meaning.

Athiests also lie alot saying that science somehow invalidates religion. If this is so, why do most scientist believe in God. Perhaps many scientist see an intelligent design in the universe?

Sincerely, Vincent Burnett Ph.D. Solid State Physics

Hmm, you are one to judge arent you. I would say the same goes nicely for any religion/non-religion. That is human related, not faith related. Unfortunately, I can not reply to harshly on this as I have accidently made a harsh generalization prior to this post.

ScottSullivan
10-22-2006, 08:12 PM
Athiests are the biggest hypocrits of all! If anyone objects to thier non beliefs they make childish attacks against them and call them ignorant. Perhaps they are threatened by other people having beliefs and ideals, or life having a meaning.

I feel sad for them, actually. But you are accurate that in general (not all, but just in general), many feel they must shout as loudly as possible their belief of "not-belief."

While I understand many here are not American (the multi-national membership here is awe-inspiring!), in America there is a Freedom OF Religion. It's not Freedom FROM Religion.

Don't be scared of us and try to silence and belittle us. It only shows a personal insecurity. I tend to think of the guy with a big car, overcompensating for lack of something else. *wink*

While I may believe that all athiests are wrong, I still hope they will come to Christ.

But in the end, everyone's personal beliefs should be honored. I will not force my beleifs on anyone. I will, however, share them openly. But, fellow athiests, why must you tear things down?

Can we not all enjoy each other's company, perhaps learning from each other? We as 3D artists create, we shouldn't destroy.

Warm regards,
Scott

webhead
10-22-2006, 08:27 PM
Hey, I did not mean for such a comment to reflect on all christianity, it was humor, haha, get it? I am extremely sorry if I offended you. I will remove the comment.

I accept your apology, and I appreciate it, but I still don't want to argue this subject anymore. It's too close to all of us. It creates too much hostility, and there is enough of that in the world. I really rather talk about CG and not argue with anyone, so don't expect anymore replies here, okay?

lilrayray77
10-22-2006, 08:28 PM
We would be silent. We would be silent, if the many religious people around us didnt constanly condemn us to he||. We would if we had an equal voice. We would if people actually gave us a chance. The reason it seems that we "shout" is because we are a minority, a tiny minority that feels a need to speak out.

I beleive, it is not us that are afraid, but rather those we oppose. They fear change, or even simpler, a different view.

I do not stand for all athiests, only for myself, but I say once again, do not generalize, for everyone, and I mean everyone, is different.

Tzan
10-22-2006, 08:55 PM
Have you ever seen the odds required for some of these things to have happened just as science theorizes they did? Astronomical!


Funny you should mention Astronomical. Do you know how many galaxies there are and how many stars, lots.

If the chances are 1 in a trillion maybe there are a trillion worlds with life, (not a researched number, there is a formula that somebody came up with for this, I'm not going to hunt for it now). Each one thinking that they are alone and special. Wondering what the odds are that it happened. Or devising other explanations.

When you have enough chances at making something, you eventually will succeed. But the only living things that can question the randomness or designyness are the ones that succeeded.

THREEL
10-22-2006, 09:57 PM
Hey there fellow Christians!

Go to my thread on starting a :lwicon: users' group for believers. Another believer and I thought it would be cool to start a LWUG, so we can share our thoughts, prayers and network with each other without offending those who don't believe. Please, go to that thread and let me know what you think. Is this even possible, or do you have to live in a similar georaphic area to start one.

Tzan: Is designyness even a word? LOL!!! I make up words all the time, and my wife, who is a teacher, gives me these funny looks. Or is that whom? Go figure.

As far as evolution goes, there's a difference between micro-evolution, and macro-evolution. Personally, I have no problem recognizing changes within a species. It's the changing from one lifeform to another, I have a problem with.

hrgiger: Not to change the subject, but didn't you say you were from the Columbus area? If so, does that make you a Buckeyes' fan? GO BUCKS!!! Oh, oh here come all of the Michigan fans to do bodily harm to me!:rolleyes:

parm
10-22-2006, 10:48 PM
A religious person is strolling along the beach, and he finds a watch lying in the sand. She assumes that the watch was created by a watchmaker, and decides to go find him.

A devouted atheist is walking down the road, and finds a coke bottle. She assumes it has occured naturally.

A scientific-minded person is walking across a field, and finds a cellular phone. She assumes nothing, but rather investigates whether or not it was possible for it to be created naturally, or if someone made it, or if it randomly materialised out of thin air, or whatever theory she can come up with. If empirical evidence is found for one of the theories, she will know how the phone came to be there. If no such evidence is found, she'll keep looking until she dies.




See what I'm getting at?



Yes, I see what you're saying exactly.

starbase1
10-23-2006, 12:32 AM
Just for the record, there are sources, other than the bible, that refer to Jesus as actually walking the earth, such as the writings of historian, Josephus. Whether or not you believe Jesus was God's son, is entirely up to you.

Does that impress you?

Mohammed was a real person.
Come to that Vlad the Imapaler AKA Count Dracula was a real person. Should I stock up on garlic?

Fairer to say that the biblical figure was loosely based on a real person. (and the current massively mutated religion even more loosely based).

starbase1
10-23-2006, 12:50 AM
When a great scientist has his views challenged and PROVED wrong, the person proving is greatly honoured. Consider Einstein demonstrating that Newtons work was not correct at high speeds etc.

When religion is demonstrated to be wrong, it persecutes and pleads special cases. Consider how the church treated Galileo.

The Earth was not the centre, and it is not 6000 years old.

Oh, and for those argueing about astronomical numbers and odds, this kind of figures are thrown around without explaining how they are derived. The numbers for life coming out of nothing are done as in one step, and make zero allowance for culumative and selective change.

Also consider how many chemical interactions take place in one second in all the oceans of the world, (maybe one per cubic millimetre?) and scale that up by billlions of years and a hundred billion stars in a hundred billion galaxies. (a reasonable estimate).

The Earth is NOT 6000 years old. Thats barely enough time for light to cross the thickness of our galaxy.

hrgiger
10-23-2006, 02:19 AM
hrgiger: Not to change the subject, but didn't you say you were from the Columbus area? If so, does that make you a Buckeyes' fan? GO BUCKS!!! Oh, oh here come all of the Michigan fans to do bodily harm to me!:rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm not from the Columbus area but I live there now. And no, I am not a Buckeye fan. Not a sports fan at all. A little too lowbrow for me I'm afraid (and I do enjoy the occasional lowbrow activity), plus, I have a whole problem with the whole idolotry of sports figures and their salaries vs. the salaries of people who make a respectful living at doing something that provides more then a superficial service to the community. Say for instance my girlfriend who is a high school teacher. In fact, I would go onto say that I specifically do not like the Buckeyes. Here in Columbus, the die hard (aka extremist) OSU fans, like to cause riots and burn dumpsters, turn over cars, and generally make an [email protected] of themselves, whether the OS Buckeyes win or lose a game. They have to actually ban the sale of alcohol on the days of the games to get people to not act like troglodytes, so of course everyone stocks up early. We're kind of a national disgrace in that way. I lived down near campus for 5 years or so and had to deal with that bs.
Funny, you should mention bodily harm from liking one sports team over the other because you're not far from the truth here in Columbus. Not liking the Bucks here is like sacrelige.
But then I guess in every activity you have your extremist idiots out there making the rest of the group look bad. Like religion has their whackos who bomb abortion clinics, molest little boys, criticize other relgious practices other than their own, start wars, and ban homosexuals from their midsts. Perhaps religous people like yourself would have a much easier time if you didn't have such a sheer number of idiots championing your cause.

Iain
10-23-2006, 03:21 AM
I'd like to make a point regarding whether or not what other countries think of your country and your government should matter.

Self belief in your morals and your government's policies are necessary and should be lauded but extending them over the entire world is the behaviour of a dictator the like of which can only be compared to Hitler. He thought what he was doing was right, remember!
There are certain circumstances where governments have no option but to intervene in the actions of other governments but it has to be proven beyond doubt that those in the wrong are in the wrong and that is not a decision for one man to take on a daily basis with his hand picked allies.

Also, I think you would have to have a similar way of thinking to post your beliefs here but ask others to keep theirs secret in PMs.

The world is a large and diverse place and it should not be governed or morally led by the most influential country but, worryingly, it is becoming that way.