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kyle_r
10-08-2006, 07:20 AM
Sorry for my english by advance.

Take that from a LW friend advice. No less, no more. I hope it is a good one.

I have used LW from version 4.
It was my first 3D software.
I bought it because it was used in tv show like Babylone 5, Star trek, seaquest.
In my country, France, at that time there was only 2 reasonable product, 3d studio and Lightwave. 3d studio was a pain in the a** with very bad rendering (the scanline at that time) and expensive for me . LW looks good and was used in several recognized tv show. So the choice was easy.

Then i learn the basic of 3d and lw in a summer and i made some personal work with it.

Many years after, i find my first job in CG for a big communication company, working for a big car label. They use only LW, mostly because of the free render farme node and the fast work flow, but todays it's no more an only LW advantage. (by the way they use now Max and vray)

Then i left and became a freelance . Using LW for small job at home.
Looking for lw job but only find 3dmax or maya job. So i learn Max 7 and know i found several job and work in a archiviz society. (max and vray)

I surf and read several CG and LW dedicated forum and what i see is not good for Lightwave.

Less and less article, tutorial, review, job ...

Why is that ?

There are plenty of hypothesis but only 2 very prejudicial.
I put on the side for the moment the flaw of LW compare to the other software.

The bad communication of Newtek and inevitably less money and bizness for NT :

There bad commercial, bad web site, bad communication.
LW is not looking right, as a real professional 3d software.
They don't communicate enough on the use of LW in movie and TV show bizness. We only see on the site the name of the movie but no picture, no deep exploration in there web site of the use of LW in the SFX of big movies like:

Da Vinci code
Posseidon
MI 3
Gardfield
X3
Ant Bully

to name the one for 2006

No image of that lw sfx ... only names and words. That's not enough, not appealing. No picture in the film gallery, no "waouh" for the viewer and maybe futur buyer.

I know that Autodesk make big pressure to the studio (with money or advantage) to communicate for their product. I know that Autodesk is a giant
and Newtek a small compagny. But in this bizness a image is far more important than a word. And in any bizness you have to put some money on the table to get back 2x more.

Visibility is the key of succes.
Lightwave is less and less visible in the industry.
It is a shame that the average curious web surfer will only find that there was only Realflow to make the water sfx on the Guardian for instance.

Communication and visibility need investissement, i know.
But without it you can't live too long in today's world.

What if a small boy want to learn 3d by himself.
He looks at the big 3d web site or SFX mag and what will he find in it ?
Tons of maya works, Max works and Xsi work and if he had a chance some LW works ...

IF i was that little boy today, i will no more buy LW. Why's that ?
Because where is lightwave in todays block buster or show tv ?
Lightwave is in the movie and show tv in the newtek web site list of movies but that's all. It is definitly not appealing.

We know all that LW was used in Peter jakson's king kong movie.
But no picture in the web site.

We know that Vue 5 infinite was used in Pirates 2 AND we can see some pictures of it on there web site ...very appealing no ?

Because of the less visibility of LW, they will be less and less buyers.
And less and less buyers equal less and less money for Newtek developper, so less and less developper (it is also less attractive for very good develloper to come to newtek), more and more time to improve LW, and then LW is no more a real competitive product for small, medium and big studio.

A new 3d student want to learn the tools that is used in most of the studios because he want to make a living with is passion.

So because of that and dispite of the advantage of LW ...

LW has the slowest MC GI solution of all the 3d software (maybe not all, Vue GI is bad and maybe longer).

LW still have 2 module that today slow down the work flow because of the HUB. I was a pro 2 seperate part of LW, until i use Max.

LW have a bad particule FX and FX body solution. (see how it is easy to use Max reactor and PFX for that)

LW have the badest CA tools of all.
LW have a old hair solution.
LW have a overweight tools modeler.

Etc ...

I still like LW because it was my frist 3d soft and for all the trick you could use in it but when you see that in other package you don't have to use all that trick and that it works better and speeder you have to understand that there is a big problem with LW and NEwtek.

I know that the new team made great effort to improve LW, that they have rewrite the core etc . But i think that it is now a emergency for NT to invest more in the communication and advertising side and also in hiring more and better programmer. The CG software industry is more adult today than 10 years ago. It is like any other bizness, there is no more place for little player. NT must evolve and develop or LW will go down and vanish some day.
It wil be sad, but i will survive ... i make 3d image after all.

NT must take more risk. More risk = more invest for the futur. And may be LW can rise again.

It is not a question of lowering the price, it is a question of rising the value then the price to make a more solid and appealing peace of software.

C4D was way from LW some years ago ... see what it is now.

To resume my thoughts:

I think, the bigest NT and LW problem is money.
You must invest for the futur to survive.

More money for communication.
More money for the devellopement team, more good programmer.

= more visibility + more value = more buyer and use in the industry = more money and benefice...

But if NT don't want to grow up ... it's another story and i can understand that but i will someday definitly switch to others software. (too many very good lightwavers, in france and in the world has switch to other package today)

See you.


ps: by the way if you are curious you can visite my portfolio if you want here:

jlb3d.free.fr

all done with LW and Fprime.

pawn_9
10-08-2006, 07:40 AM
I kind of agree with you . I come from max background and now I need to learn
lightwave .
and a lot of things bugs me . not that I think lightwave is less good than other
app . it is a tool like every other app ,
alot of things I doing very easy in max . I found it hard to do with lightwave
why I need to buy other tool plugins from other 3 party software so I can work
faster why those tools aren't build in as a default .
and alot of other stuff you named here .
I hope NT will improve and make it better and make it more user friendly
and get rid of this hub and make it as a one program .
and than the sun will shine on us all lightwaver users .

regards

Bog
10-08-2006, 07:56 AM
*shrugs*

Y'got me. I don't really have any answers. I just got my weekly Siggraph "Heads up!" email for job openings. There's a heck of a lot of work, but nobody seems to want LightWavers.

For sure, some of the very best graphics being done has LightWave involved with it, but the marketplace is tiny for LightWavers, especially for someone in my situation where I'm trying to move out of a long-term freelancing career, doing short, unexciting jobs into working on something big and cool.

I really want to animate, and to animate on the most exciting gigs. My demo reel is dull as ditchwater, though, 'cause that's the kind of gig I can get as a one-man-band in the Uck. Ergo, I'm stuck with dull-as-ditchwater jobs unless a make a major time investment and do some kind of short off my own bat to show what I'm actually capable of.

Tell you, though. I want to animate for a career. That's all I really care about. There are shedloads of jobs out there, but for the panoply of reasons we've discussed unto death, the number of jobs for hardcore LightWave artists is pretty small compared to the Autocrat slots.

It's saddenning, and I'm not entirely sure what to do about it - I do know one thing, though, and that's that I've got a significant other and a mortage that needs to be taken care of. Wish to **** I knew how I'm gonna address these problems - this year's been really hard on my health because of that worry.

moc
10-08-2006, 08:25 AM
I agree with you too...
I don't doubt NT want to make LW better and better....but...
as we're far from our way....or other competiter....
NT's further timetable take so much time for LW to really "reborn"......
parts need develop one by one........months by months.....years by years...
Acturally, the global 3d market grow much fast.....No one will wait..
No matter at france...but much serious situation at china......

Nowaday,softwares may need become sharpen at least one pro-field....
A.industrial design field...need combine native nurbs.....We haven't
B.TV,film retouching mayneed native multi-pass...and reliable render(reliable speed too)....we reborning....
C.modeling only...there are more & more little and Efficiency modeler tools...
D.character animation......no comment...____!!there 're so much better choice....
E.game.......is there any other competiter here....yes....and he did it at a better way..
I totally don't want to bother NT....
but....
If NT just know solve things step by step....
Then Obviously we're no longer to be a LWer.......
The way let us change.....because we need job & money to live....

UnCommonGrafx
10-08-2006, 08:39 AM
The recurring themes...
- Too much time...
- Later won't be good enough or Later is now for those that have been around a while
- More to get the job done


As even they have said: if you need more, move on. It seems that we are all slowly but surely having to take that message to heart.

More said would just be that much more depressing...

kyle_r
10-08-2006, 10:01 AM
The recurring themes...
- Too much time...
- Later won't be good enough or Later is now for those that have been around a while
- More to get the job done


As even they have said: if you need more, move on. It seems that we are all slowly but surely having to take that message to heart.

More said would just be that much more depressing...

Reccuring themes, i know, all this are not new.

I have allready moving on by necessity. I was a bit affraid of it, but it is no big deal after all.

I use only Max for my job, i didn't made any personnal work at this time with it. But i begin to know it better and better and open LW rarely at home today except for testing some new features (node editor for exemple). Still i'm curious about all the LW community and the job done with it. Since i use it from LW 4. it is part of the familly now. I know what LW is capable, and sometimes it is very capable. But now i grew up, and i finaly don't really care about the software i use.

I'm still a better modeler with LW than with Max, for the moment. (i'm not a great modeler still) I was laughing at the modeling of Max some years ago. Now when i saw all the beauty modeling done with it all around the world i don't laugh anymore. I was laughing at the scanline ... now with MR (and Vray, ok it is a 3rd part render) i don't laugh anymore. I gave up with dynamic and CA in LW. Why torture myself.

What i'm trying to say, is that LW has the potential to be better than it is today. It always has, but it seems that NT can't rise it to the next level for some reason. And maybe the reason are only money, invest, and communication.

If you invest more money on communication and developpement, and make half of the right choice, you can evolve. If you don't want to put more money than before, you stick in the place where you are and slowly get down by the competition.

I read here and there that lightwave is good for freelancer, it is cheap and you can done a lot of work. I agree. But freelancer don't buy 10+ licence of the software. Freelancer don't hire CG employe. Freelancer don't have the weight of a studio for the communication of what software they use for there work. And Freelancer work for time to time with studio who use other program. So if i find only Max or Maya jobs will i still use LW at home ?

It's not a good idea to focus on the freelancer world.

A good professional software must be usefull for everybody, freelancer or studio.

Maybe i'm wrong with newtek policy.
Maybe they invest a lot, hire good developper and try to communicate a lot ...
I don't know. Or maybe they still think small, and in this global world bizness of today maybe it is not so good to think that way.

If i was a boss of a new 3d package i will think big.
My 3d soft must be good for archiviz, sfx, video games, CA etc ... like XSI
In this case i must have plenty of good and well paid develloper to make this monster work well, and good money invest in it and for communication.

Or if i don't want to invest to much i would made the finest software for one task, Rendering,Modeling,CA, water or dynamics simulation, with a small expert team. Like Vray, Maxwell (for archiviz and design), or MR, Zbrush, Mudbox, CAT, Real Flow, Vue (for landscape)

Lightwave is in between. He can do a lot of work but it is not an expert in one of them. It has a difficult place in todays industry. It's like a Swiss knife.
You can saw with it, but not better than a good saw.

Anyway don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing NT for there work or lack of good response to the industry for the moment. I'm just thinking that they must react quickly, and think big or they will have more and more difficulties to keep there already fragile place.

This fragile place is my point of view, after reading lot and lot of discussion here and there, viewing lot and lot article and news in the industry and seeing the less and less visibility of LW, reviews, tutorials, job and works ...

ps: Now that i know a little more MAx, i will try seriously Maxwell to see where i can push the archiviz photorealism. Vray is good in that area but, what i see in Maxwell gallery is incredible (and with the Duo core 2 and future quade core, slow render will not be a issue in the near futur). I will also try mudbox, because i don't like Zbrush interface and i'm one of those who think that it is the soft and the interface that must adapte to the user, and not the opposite.

alex-7
10-08-2006, 10:06 AM
At least newtek tell us what are they doing now are they devoloping the charater animation in LW or what the features that they are going to release..
just to ease our mood...

and I'm sure that if I didn't see any valuable features in the next version of lightwave .. I'll move to another package maya or xsi .. and I'll use LW only for modeling.

Wonderpup
10-08-2006, 11:05 AM
What I find really depressing is the attitiude of employers who, in a business in which creative thinking is supposedly important, seem incapable of making the imaginitive leap that if a person is capable of creating good work in one 3D app they will be just as competent in another given a little time to adjust. It's almost as if they belive the software is doing the work. It won't be long now before what happened to Graphic Designers happens to us- and you'll see jobs ads asking for '3D Operators'

kyle_r
10-08-2006, 11:45 AM
What I find really depressing is the attitiude of employers who, in a business in which creative thinking is supposedly important, seem incapable of making the imaginitive leap that if a person is capable of creating good work in one 3D app they will be just as competent in another given a little time to adjust. It's almost as if they belive the software is doing the work. It won't be long now before what happened to Graphic Designers happens to us- and you'll see jobs ads asking for '3D Operators'

Well some people are not as narrow minded than you think.

I have work on a TV advertising last july on a small studio who use only Max.
I said that i know a bit the software (especialy the Vray renderer) but had never use it on a job. They like my portfolio (and the fact that i have work with a big company for a year for the same task, cars rendering) and they give me a try. Everything works well.

For the job where i'm today i said at the first meeting with the employer that MAx was only my second 3d software choice and that i don't know it as i know LW. I said also that all my image in my portfolio was made with LW exclusively. She like it and was confidente to hire me. It works well for the moment.

I think that it depend of the need of the company. If they are too speedy, they will hire people who know very well the software they use. If they are more calm, they can give a try for a couple of days. I think that you must always propose a try. If it works it is good for both part. If it doens't work, it is no big deal. You have try your best and this is the most important.

Nicolas Jordan
10-08-2006, 11:51 AM
I think it will all come down to where Lightwave is at with release 10. It will be much bigger and more pivotal than release 9 was. We will likely see many larger changes with Lightwave 10 from the foundational work set on 9. Things do look very promising with Lightwave development and I think Lightwave has always been one of the more quiet ones when it comes to bragging about what movies it's been used on. I didn't even know much about Lightwave until a went to a Lightwave reseller and they convinced me Lightwave 6 was the way to go instead of the very expensive Softimage 3D at the time. I'm very happy with my decision to get Lightwave back in 99!:)

moc
10-08-2006, 12:03 PM
and I'm sure that if I didn't see any valuable features in the next version of lightwave .. I'll move to another package..........

I've heard Those words times and times.....
Maybe LW was become a habit for us....
when NT said V9 was coming....and listing more attractive features....at SIG05.....
Many of us gone crazy......and supposed LW really reborn....

But now.......fall of 2006........was the situation better than V.7.5/V8?
so many important features are still coming......when?hard to say....

bryphi7
10-08-2006, 12:11 PM
I think it will all come down to where Lightwave is at with release 10

V10 won't do much good if no one is around for it... NT really need to prove to us that they are capable of doing what needs to be done. I think v10 will be to late for that.

What do you think... that people are going to wait around for another 2 years hoping that v10 is what NT claims its going to be? I fell for that one already...

I am honestly considering selling all my LW stuff now, before its worth absolutely nothing! Thats scarry...and sad.

moc
10-08-2006, 12:49 PM
....

moc
10-08-2006, 12:51 PM
Eh, what are you implying here? What happened to graphic designers? Because I am one, and I make my living primarily as one. Graphics design for print, like 3d graphics simply can't be automated, do you mean that good design is automated today? Because it isn't, and people have been crying doom for as long as I remember. Oh noes! Teh computer makes us obsolete! On the contrary, software helps push creativity, not kill it. Just take a simple look around you, do you think the hundreds of ads, images, page layouts and packagings were automated, or do you think commercial graphic designers might have made them? So what happened to graphic designers? :D

....
I'm graphic designer too...
calm down....this is not the big concern.....

Nicolas Jordan
10-08-2006, 12:52 PM
It could be that some of us wont stick around for another 2 years to wait for version 10 but good development takes lots of time and planning to make a good product. Even if some people move on to other apps I think Newtek will get thier attention with future releases if the product becomes innovative.

bryphi7
10-08-2006, 12:58 PM
I can agree with that, but it will take something really great to get people back that have already left for other software. It would have to be better then the software that they switched to, and its just real hard for me to see NT out developing these other companies at the rate they have demonstrated thus far...

moc
10-08-2006, 01:04 PM
It could be that some of us wont stick around for another 2 years to wait for version 10 but good development takes lots of time and planning to make a good product. Even if some people move on to other apps I think Newtek will get thier attention with future releases if the product becomes innovative.

man.....
Even though the further releases becomes innovative.....
It can't live without a solid user base....
for example: electric image...universe?....truespace.....
Otherwise become a hobbiest toys ..such as ...animation master...
None will spend time on a "no tommorrow" tools......

pawn_9
10-08-2006, 03:20 PM
the world is changing , and it change fast , today most places want things to be done . and fast .the clock is ticking and we got a dateline to meet .
waiting to LW 10 ? when it will come there will be better maya , XSI or max .
NT need to make a big jump to meet the needs of the industary .

tyrot
10-08-2006, 03:29 PM
dear wavers

build your own companies, support KRAY and PIM for arch viz, stop getting hired by max, maya, xsi companies, stop worrying about monthly payment earn your own money, do satisfy lots of 3d hungry people out there...change your life...really build your company, learn a bit live without a paycheck...girlfriend will be hating you cuz you will work so much more but soon a new car will be a present to her...
for all of that Lightwave 8.5 even enough. stop complaining. Support 3rd party...

Or...leave this program immediately, (it is TOOOOOOOO late for LW for Games, or Films ...monopoly is upon us, you cant deny it) learn MAYA or MAX /may be XSI, get hired by the UBER canadian Game companies for making another copy of a same game with REALTIME HUPPI DUPPI feature, Rig a stupid game character for months, ....Listen MAXers, MAYAians every **** second from your shoulder, TRY to forget LW's awesome modeler and easy to render workflow....get a paycheck...go home...play your friends' another stupid NEXT GEN game...till your girlfriend needs your hug ... force her to work more for a new car... (cuz it is really hard for you to get a porsche in this way)

BEST

(choice is yours..)

Intuition
10-08-2006, 03:41 PM
I've been with Lightwave and Newtek since 4.0 as well. As a matter of fact, I can remember that it was only on Amiga before that.

I ordered 4.0 and my career changed for the next 11 years.

That being said I did try all the other software that came out through the years, 3d studio max, Maya, and later, XSI/Softimage, you name, I tried it.

For a long time Lightwave was not in trouble of falling behind because it was alot cheaper then the other guys even when it was much more expensive then it is now.

So I must say that many of your concerns are the concerns of the many.

The Pros.....and Cons....

Lightwave 9 does have many features that improve my overall use of Lightwave. Edges, nodal surfacing, native shaders that were 3rd party for a long time, etc.

Yet, I have buckled down and have been using other software for a few items.

First off is the product that the Peebler Elves made after they left Newtek.

I have been modeling with this thing and it is so darn fast and slick and easy it really just blows my mind. As a matter of fact I have noticed how I do more with about one fourth the modeling tools.

Also, it made a HUGE case for a single program for modeling/rendering, which I can attest that in earlier debates I was against in the case of Modeler and Lightwave being one interface. I thought this because of how many buttons are in each program.

Now I can see that when you remove hundreds of functions that are essentially the same and reduce them to single buttons you get quicker sessions. For example, Bevel vertex, bevel edge, bevel polygon, are all one button and the function changes depending on selection mode as expected.

Also, the SSS and Anistropy features of this program are hundreds of times faster and better looking. The GI is also ridiculously fast and the program has its own native F-Prime style viewer. I mean......WHOA! What else do you want?

Well for one....Animation, but you can see the Peebler Elves at the Lux Tree are going to burn the new path for many current software users in the near future.

ON the Subject of Lightwave's GI/Radiosity. Its a tough fight.

I really love my Lightwave 9 and am using it right now on 3 different projects and it is burning through them. But I wouldn't attempt some of these things without a farm cause the render times on many of the new shaders are so slow. Thank you Newtek for the New native shaders we asked for, now speed them up.

I remember being really excited about Maxwell because of its photoreal renderer but it was rendering waaaay too slow. Well, I now have a quad core box and with multi threading I am getting frames from Maxwell in about an hour and some of my LW renders with SSS and GI @ 4x12 are taking 4-6 hours on the same machine. SO even Maxwell is now faster for the quality.

Character Animation is possible in Lightwave. It can be done and we do it at Eden alot. The thing is that it is way behind the curve when you look at any other program for CA.

So, what is a Lightwave fanatic like myself to do?

Well, I did a few models in Modeler9 and really love the new stuff but after modeling in the software of the Peebler Elves I model in that completely now. Its too fast and efficient and it only took two tutorial modeling sessions for me to get speed forming habits.

Will I ever leave Lightwave? Probably not. I really still enjoy it alot. And regardless of the areas it has fallen behind in I can still do most stuff in Lightwave faster then I can in other apps. So, Newtek can ride on that for a while. The only problem is that Lightwave 9 has barely been out for 3-4 months and people are already talking about "where is LW10?".

Lightwave really needs is a new design approach. Not a whole new design but rather a slimming and cleaning of features. It has a ton of stuff peple don't know about and yet half a ton of that stuff now performs similar functions.

Example...Clone tool. Sure you can clone the object. How about, clone Hiaerchy. Yes you can do that. Now how about, create instance? Well, we go 3rd party for that and it renders as a voxel/image filter. Why not have a true instance faeture that allows thousands of clones at a tiny memory hit? It is doable in every other program.

Netwke is stuck in devloping in two directions.

1. Backwards compatible.

2. Innovate forewards at risk of breaking compatibility with 3rd party plug ins loved by all and previous Lightwave versions.

NT should Look at M*D*, XSI, Maya, for the features that LW lacks and keep the ones that LW has the lead on. This is of course easier said and imagened then done considering the line NT has to walk with current and past software versions.

Lightwave's surfacing is still one of the most useful and fast methods I have ever used. The Layout approach is still speedy. I mean, don't throw out the baby with the bath water but in comparison terms don't be afraid to take stuff directly from other apps as an example.

Maya has a nice Open GL hair and fur preview that I really like. In the render I hate it but the previewer in the open GL look great and lets you see lenght and frizz etc.

Lightwave is still my favorite overall but modeling for complex items has moved to 3rd party Modo/Z-Brush. I still bring that stuff into Lightwave for use though. Thankfully Newtek made LW ZBrush compatible. Thank goodness.

I almost believe that if I could mimick the M*D* interface in modeler and save out a config it could be an example design idea. I'd only need to figure out how to get f-prime in the window normally reserved for OpenGL.

And yes, while I love M*D*s speedy renderer I know that Lightwave's renderer, although slow for GI is still a freakin workhorse and does get alot done for me. Thankfully F-Prime gave Newtek a much needed boost in that area. Some of us are willing to wait for a long render as long as the preview is accurate.

Now I am not as concerned as many have been over the last two years. But I do agree now that 2 years ago and where we are now is starting to get my attention.

Maybe we should have a Modeler feature consolidation thread so we can figure out how to streamline Modeler. This idea could also be used for Layout and for the brave maybe even some design ideas for Modeler and Layout to exist together as one.

I only mean to say that we can complain about falling behind features here but maybe we can help design the program as well. This way our critiques can be constructive too. This way Newtek can see that we are trying to help instead o fjust being the unpleasable crowd.

Many of us are happy the way LW9 beta went. We felt like we knew what was going on and could see weekly progress. It was a happy time.

Now it seems like the beta is closed again. No one knows whats going on.

Why doesn't Newtek just keep the process for open beta 9 going perpetually?

This is the main question I have wondered. I see new features like the Mblur and DoF and am guessing people are testing. Why not just release a new build in the beta forums?

This would make everyone feel alot better because the Feb-June Beta process was a positive one.

Well, I guess I'll start looking at Modeler 9 and see what kind of config I can make that will streamline it more. I have seen many things that could simply be consolidated for a more streamlined model session.

Just my one dollar and 53 cents. :D :thumbsup:

Newtek is not a sinking ship, but for now many of us are using the speedboats to get around while our carrier is docked and getting maintenence.

gatz
10-08-2006, 04:29 PM
Does anyone have first hand knowledge of what happen between Alias Power Animator and Maya or SoftImage 3D and XSI? Is seems that tectonic shifts in the market are possible. Was this all just marketing? Did the companies actually change paradigms or did they simply refine credible foundations?

I almost seems that Newtek would have to create a flawless, convention shaking app just to get the kind of attention Maya and XSI are envied for. And that's assuming 3D press isn't just bought and paid for.

LW is the best, most inexpensive way for a 3D generalist to get great results. I wish a lot of things were easier and glitch-free, primarily for selfish reasons, but also so that more people take advantage of the app. But I question whether anything short of Pixar creating their next film in LW will change LWs image on the 3D street.

Yog
10-08-2006, 04:32 PM
What I find really depressing is the attitiude of employers who, in a business in which creative thinking is supposedly important, seem incapable of making the imaginitive leap that if a person is capable of creating good work in one 3D app they will be just as competent in another given a little time to adjust. It's almost as if they belive the software is doing the work.The problem with this statement is, it's increasingly an employers market, meaning for every job they advertise, there will be twenty people relatively as good as each other applying for the job. In that situation why would a company put up with the hastle of everyone using different software (with all the associated transfer foibles), when they can specify just one prefered software package and still get a dozen times more eligable applicants than they need ?

Wonderpup
10-08-2006, 04:35 PM
Hi neverko,

Sorry if my post came off as disrepectful of Graphic Designers- it wasn't meant to be at all. In fact, my point really was the opposite.

What happened to Graphic Designers was that when computers came along a lot of stupid people belived that the computers were doing the designing, and started placing job ads for 'Mac operators' instead of designers. An 'operator' is a bit like the monkey that turns the organ handle- in their minds it's the organ that makes the music.

I forsee a similar process for 3d designers, as the technology becomes more mainstream there will be a lot of stupid people placing job ads for '3D operators' in the belief that any fool could press a few buttons and make 3D.

There is also a strategic element here too, I belive. Call someone a designer and you might have to pay them a decent wage- call them an 'operator' and you can persude them they are worthless and pay them a lot less.

bryphi7
10-08-2006, 04:46 PM
what would make me stay...
Fprime and native render any view port, and dragable region.
render to layers.
faster gi.
global surface nodes.
fix and house clean current tools.
modeler speed.
kill hub or make it work properly.
model in layout.
new animation environment.
nodal app throughout.


I agree with Intuition...That LW has alot of useful tools that no one uses or knows about, and thats because NTs implementation is so ***** backwards, and way harder then it needs to be...

Intuition
10-08-2006, 04:58 PM
Crap, see Bryphi, I didn't have to write a book. Your post summed up what I was saying anyways.

:D

Oh well, guess Im an attention hog. ;)

Wonderpup
10-08-2006, 05:05 PM
The problem with this statement is, it's increasingly an employers market, meaning for every job they advertise, there will be twenty people relatively as good as each other applying for the job. In that situation why would a company put up with the hastle of everyone using different software (with all the associated transfer foibles), when they can specify just one prefered software package and still get a dozen times more eligable applicants than they need ?

How true, really, is the myth that there are so many genuinely good 3D artists that employers are beating them off with a stick. How many posts have you read where someone trying to recruit artists will be complaining that he has to wade through a thousand showreels to find someone worthwhile?

To say there are a lot of 3D artists is one thing- to say there are a lot of good 3D artists is another. If good artists were so commonplace recruitment would be a snap- just pick the first three showreels off the pile. Instead we get dire warnings issued that should our showreel deviate in length, format, colour ,shape, size, smell, weight ect ect, from the expected, it will be discarded immediately by the poor recruiter whose fate it is to view hundreds of show reels.

Why view so many? What are they looking for? They are looking for good artists, and apparantly not finding it easy to find them.

Yog
10-08-2006, 05:20 PM
Intuition - I agree whole heartedly with everything you have said, but then again I appear have gone a similar route to you ;)

IMHO the number one thing Newtek needs to do (apart from the much needed consoildation of tools), is to stop playing the feature game and concentrate a lot more on the workflow of the tools.
Sure Lightwave has non-linear-animation, sure it has global illumination, likewise expressions, edge tools, Sub-D's and script recording, unfortunately they are the worst implementation of these tools of any of the main 3D apps.
Assuming the rest of LW-9 is set in stone, the catch words for the next version of LW should be workflow and simplicity. Unfortunately it is new features that sell upgrades, and I'm not sure how the average user would feel if the got less than the previous version.

BTW - Does anyone else see a correlation between the number of bolted on 3rd-party plug-ins in a release and the inverse quality and usability of the final product ?

bryphi7
10-08-2006, 05:45 PM
BTW - Does anyone else see a correlation between the number of bolted on 3rd-party plug-ins in a release and the inverse quality and usability of the final product ?

Yes I do... The only thing in this release that wasn't a 3rd party plug was CC subd's and look how that turned out...scarry!!!


Sure Lightwave has non-linear-animation, sure it has global illumination, likewise expressions, edge tools, Sub-D's and script recording, unfortunately they are the worst implementation of these tools of any of the main 3D apps.

so true...

kyle_r
10-08-2006, 06:19 PM
Intuition - i can't say better than you did.

your one dollar and 53 cents is a very valuable point. I agree for a lot of your thoughts. Maybe a good cleaning is the best think that can happen to LW.

I've just heard that autodesk will kill the old edit mesh in Max for the 9 version. Keeping the new edit poly (who cames with max 7 if i remember) which is way more usuable and speedy. (strangely they will rename it as edit mesh...).

I think newtek have to make the same with a lot of modeler function. Then we can see more clearly.

Like some body said a long time ago, "you have to leave some thing behind to learn and use a new thing and then grow up". It is the basic of evolution. (i think that this is boudhiste philosophy).

If LW want to evolve it must leave some of the old fonction from the past.

I can understand that it could be very difficult for the LW newtek team to read all those critics and not so good remarks. But we don't do that by pleasure, but because we have for a lot of us started 3d with LW. So we still love LW and want to see it to be a first actor in the future.

- tyrot

you made a point too.
I'ved try to be a freelancer and to earn good money for a year with only LW and F-prime. But the market is smallest than the one in US, Canada or even UK. The 3d bizness is more in the companys. I could be freelancer both at home with LW, working for few client and also working time to time in company but with another software. Unfornately, LW is less and less used in french company. And for the moment it is more reassuring to have a paycheck every month, and i can improve my skill with max every day.

Creating a company in France is a bit difficult. You have to pay taxes before you earn your first benefit. I will maybe in the future creat my own, i want to have a sport car one day, but not a porshe... a Lamborghini.

ANd when i will create my 3d bizness, i sure will have LW licence (because of the price) but i will need other 3d software for sure.

SplineGod
10-08-2006, 06:29 PM
V10 won't do much good if no one is around for it... NT really need to prove to us that they are capable of doing what needs to be done. I think v10 will be to late for that.

What do you think... that people are going to wait around for another 2 years hoping that v10 is what NT claims its going to be? I fell for that one already...

I am honestly considering selling all my LW stuff now, before its worth absolutely nothing! Thats scarry...and sad.

I wouldnt sell it even if you dont use it much for now. You never get back what you put into it. I always see people who sold their copies of LW wanting to come back to it for one reason or another.

The thing is that software just doesnt suddenly die out like turning off a light. It slowly drops to a certain point until it finds its spot in the market. Look at Truespace. When it first came out on the market on the Amiga it was over $3000.00 and cost more then the video toaster with Lightwave. Its still around and is apparently doing ok. XSI went thru a phase where it seemed to drop off the map. Now its come back and doing ok. C4D went thru a similar phase.

When animals go extinct theyre gone for good, software can rebound and does so all the time. Right at THIS moment LW may not be a complete solution for some. The same applies to ALL other 3D apps as well. Studios dont rely on one thing and the pricing for most things now make it possible to own several apps. That means its possible to rely more or less on those apps as your needs change while waiting for the developers of each to add the things we need or want.

Me, I can afford to wait out Newtek. I already own the software and I own other apps as well. Most of the time I use LW. If I get work in that I cant do in LW Ill fire up something that can do it. Not a problem. :)

hrgiger
10-08-2006, 06:56 PM
The only problem is that Lightwave 9 has barely been out for 3-4 months and people are already talking about "where is LW10?".



Geez Intuition, you make it hard to quote you. I had to look in the index of your book to find this line I wanted to quote.

This one sums it up for me. This isn't the way it should be...we shouldn't receive a major point upgrade and within the first few weeks after, people are already wanting an update. Perhaps Newtek was getting a lot of pressure from its userbase and perhaps they released prematurely. Many many have that problem you know. I don't know, but I know that for myself, I was so glad to finally have the use of CC's and ngons, and now that i have them, I don't really use them because they still need work. That's been a major disappointment.

Jay Roth mentioned bringing innovation back to Lightwave. Well, I'm ready to hear more about that because I haven't seen it yet. I find it unsettling that we haven't heard much about Lightwave's direction now that Lightwave 9 has been released. We saw some nice additions to Lightwave 9 including the node editor, CC's, faster rendering, ngons and edge modeling. But nothing that the other applications haven't had for some time now. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to have them and I felt like Lightwave was finally getting some direction and momentum, but we're still a ways away from being innovative. Lightwave was the first to bring HDRI lighting to the industry, what can be the next thing that 'we' bring to the market first? I want to know more about how Jay Roth and the development team plan on being innovative. I really don't want to wait agin until Siggraph to have them announce "planned" releases of Lightwave that we won't see for an additional year.

I found myself looking at XSI foundation today but I really don't want to learn a new app at this point. I have too much going on to feel like I'm starting over. I love Lightwave and I feel that there are only a few things it needs to put it back in my favor soon. These things are:

Faster modeler: This was announced at Siggraph. How about we at least get a beta version going for us registered users of 9?

Better animation solutions: Again, supposedly this is an area we are supposed to see some major development in. There are tons of things they could do in this area but for me, I would at least like to see:

Vertex level control (i.e.smartskinning/complete joint control)
Deformation speed
Improved IK setup and usage
Non-destructive setup

bryphi7
10-08-2006, 07:38 PM
SplineGod,

Are you saying that no 3d apps, or apps in general, have been discontinued... never to be upgraded again?
I have fell victim to discontinued software before, which is why I am being overly critical of NT and LW lately.

Its not that I want to sell my LW, but the more I get used to xsi the less I use LW. It would really suck for me to get stuck with a program that I don't use anymore, and not be able to sell it for nearly what I paid for it. The plugs bother me more then LW. I could deal with having $800 sitting on my shelf not getting used, but not the other $3000 dollars in plugs and training.

I hope that your optimism is from you knowing something that the rest of us don't about LW's development, but from what I have seen so far... I am skeptical and paranoid!

I am not giving up yet. I will make my decision at the end of the 9x cycle...

SplineGod
10-08-2006, 10:28 PM
Animation Master, Truespace, C4D, LW, Max, XSI, MAYA have been around for years and have changed forms several times. Some seemed to go away for awhile. Look at the turmoil Max and especially Maya have gone thru. XSI has also had its own internal problems.

Newtek has suffered their own setbacks several times in the past and have always weathered it and recovered. I can only judge a company based on its history.

Ive made far more money with LW then what it costs many times over. If I were using it as hobby it might be different. To be honest if I was just messing around with 3D for fun Id probably use blender. Its come a long way especially recently and is quite powerful and not to mention free. :)

With free and cheap apps out there its easy from a consumer standpoint to wait it out. People can migrate to other apps to fulfill their current needs but its just as easy to migrate back. The majority of the people I see constantly harping about XSI, Maya etc still seem to keep coming back to the LW forums. IMO few have actually 'moved on' and totally abandoned LW.

Nicolas Jordan
10-08-2006, 11:55 PM
I agree with Spline God, I really think it is unlikely Lightwave will dissapear anytime soon. I have lots of confindence in the people at Newtek. I think they have made the right decisions thus far including having Jay Roth head Lightwave development. Adopting on open beta program was another great decision so we get to influence and help Lightwave development. I am very surprised out how well it seems Cinema 4D is doing now, it seemed like it had almost dissapeared a few years back. I think Newtek has the people with the knowledge and experience to make Lightwave rebound.

bryphi7
10-09-2006, 12:36 AM
The majority of the people I see constantly harping about XSI, Maya etc still seem to keep coming back to the LW forums. IMO few have actually 'moved on' and totally abandoned LW.

I guess that would be me:D
I love LW, and know it best. I Would like very much to keep using it. If NT would show me something to be optimistic about, I am sure I would feel much better about the situation! I do have to say... When I use the other 3d programs that I own they all make LW feel ancient and patched together.

As far as still coming here to the NT forum...When they deliver on what I paid for 2 years ago, I will be here much less!!! How am I supposed to find out about any updates? NT certainly isn't calling me, thats for sure!

SplineGod
10-09-2006, 01:21 AM
I understand believe me. :)
I use and have used other apps. The problem with many is that they feel overly procedural and long winded. Much of the time I just want or need to get things done quickly without a lot of hoops or constraints. This is especially true when you do a lot of freelance work. I also need to be able to know most or all aspects fo the software very well. If I dont I limit myself to only being able to do certain things.
The best thing I like about LW is the spontonaety it gives me. I just dont feel that with a lot of other apps.

In the end its about delivering what a client wants in a timely fashion that makes me and them happy. When/IF LW cant allow me that then I use something else until Newtek can get it together.

A few years back I think the sentiment weve been feeling would have been more justified to to the extreme cost of buying hardware and software tools. Now we're all spoiled. We can get cheap or free tools that do amazing things....far more in fact then most can do with them.

If you have XSI I would keep at it. I would also suggest Blender. Its really come a long way. Its got some cool things:
fluid dynamics, built in node based compositor, game engine, surfacing nodes, expression based nodes, good constraint system. great rigging and animation tools including non linear animation, bones similar to LW including bone layers, and a lot of other stuff. Best of all its free. :)

prospector
10-09-2006, 01:51 AM
:devil:
Since joining the LW family at ver 3 of the Toaster/Flyer (don't remember what ver of LW was in it), this discussion has been going on.
Tho it was slower in the BBS days with a whopping 300 baud long distance charged modem.

How many times has LW been killed off (or so the doomsayers proficised)?
How many times has LW fallen behind every other program ever invented by man?

Yet it's still here doing movies,TV,local stuff.

Is it perfect...nope
Any other program perfect...nope

Will it ever get perfect..nope
will any other..nope

Will it get better....Newtek says it will and that's good enough for me.

I've had my share of *&%$#@'s in14 years with LW, but they have been getting less and less and with 9 there is only the CCTV recursion limit that makes me pull out my hair.

LW is still the only 3D program I use and it has served me well for all this time.
But I learned along time ago that you never get rich working for someone else so I started my own company...what am I gonna do...fire myself?

So rather than worrying about what some company wants me to use, I use what I want.
I don't worry about demo tapes (I see my work all the time), I don't worry about "come in and see me and we'll talk" ( I talk to myself all the time), no punchclocks, no suits on the job, I watch Sci-Fi all day long while I work.


But I ALWAYS see the silver lined clouds, I NEVER see empty glasses.

Ya know why I trust Newtek so much?

I have the VT4 but I also have and still use the Toaster/Flyer and Newtek still backs it, if something is wrong, it gets fixed...imagine that, something that has been so-called dead for 10 years and they still back it.

Does any other company back thier stuff past the 2nd upgrade from it?

That's what keeps me in the Newtek camp.

LW will continue, and I'll be there for the ride, Along with the VT and as soon as it's released, SpeedEdit.

bryphi7
10-09-2006, 01:55 AM
SplineGod,

I do flash for work, but spend all my money on 3d. I guess you could call it an obsession:help: I have downloaded Blender, and it looked good the few times I opened it, but I ain't going to go that route now... I have spent to much else where!

I work on my reel when ever I get some free time, and It will be done when I am happy with it.:) Hopefully it will get me some work. If not... thats cool too. I will be just as happy doing flash, and creating 3d for fun. Plus I do get to use 3d in my flash projects a lot, and logos too.

Don't know if I have every thanked you before, but I have learned much about LW and 3d from you. So thanks...:thumbsup:

I honestly hope we can both continue to use LW for a very long time!

bryphi7
10-09-2006, 01:58 AM
with 9 there is only the CCTV recursion limit that makes me pull out my hair.
LOL...You still on that one? You must be bald!:D

prospector
10-09-2006, 02:00 AM
LOL...You still on that one? You must be bald!

Nope, I have other body parts still to go :D :D

Phil
10-09-2006, 02:41 AM
Except the market in 3D software is fairly tightly packed, and Maya's rather limited 'upgrades' aside, is also quite aggressive. LW used to have a fairly safe market due to their price point until the big 2 (XSI and Maya) dropped their prices to a staggering degree. XSI Foundation puts in a swift boot to the crotch of any budget-type competitor as well. It's a much more difficult market these days. Now arguably, XSI has a similar problem with mindshare to LW - 3ds max and Maya are the most common requirements, but XSI (even Foundation) comes with an awful lot of power that a single user would be hard pushed to exhaust.

I'm honestly disappointed that the momentum that NT seemed to have during 9.0 development appears to have been lost. I'm also concerned that the longer the delay becomes, the more people will expect from 9.1; if NT don't deliver, there's going to be **** to pay.

This all being said, it's still early days. Expecting NT to turn around LW in a single upgrade or post-release point upgrade is unrealistic. For those that can, waiting the full 9.x cycle will reveal the truth.

Having features as 3rd party addons is actually rather beneficial. I've had multiple builds of Fiber Factory recently, fixing various glitches. If it was part of LW, I'd still be waiting.

Note also that NewTek don't really support LW beyond the current generation. You will not get bug fixes for 8.x or earlier now that 9.x is available - making NewTek's software support comparable to everyone else's. Indeed, as 8.0 was approaching, the official bug fix to the multithreaded rendering bug was to wait for 8.0 and upgrade to that. They would not backport the fix to 7.x, even though it was the current available version of LW. Their hardware support might be better, but I wouldn't know.

colkai
10-09-2006, 02:58 AM
To be honest if I was just messing around with 3D for fun Id probably use blender. Its come a long way especially recently and is quite powerful and not to mention free. :)

I'd agree with that.
I use LW now because I have it, it was something of a huge luxury considering it's cost for a hobby. (Then again, I have spent much more than that on my music gear in the past).

However, now, if I was getting into 3D, I would get Blender & Wings3D because they are so powerful and free. In fact, I have got them on my PC, along with Hex2 which I picked up at the $32 offer price.
Do I load them up, not so much, I'm just too "comfy" with LW, I have put time into it and there is still a lot in it I need to learn. But if I didn't have it, there is plenty to give you a grounding which costs nothing before deciding if you want to put money down in 3D there days. That was not realyl the case a few years back, unless you count Povray, which many people dabbled with (me included).

As to LW itself, these are hard times and I am not convinced anything Newtek produce during the LW9.X cycle will pull back those who have migrated, there is just too much work to do and being a small software house, they are dealing with limited resources.

Will Lw die, nope, of course not, folks have been bleating that same old song since the 5.0 days. What it may not do is have a huge market share, or be the "app of choice", but as long as a viable market of users exists, it will continue.

Bog
10-09-2006, 03:21 AM
Very well put, Intuition. I was giving a brief overview of LW9 last week, and kinda found myself thinking "Hold on. Haven't I just basically demoed the same function using five seperate buttons?"

To look at your example of cloning again in Layout, it would make things a lot faster, and a lot less confusing for the new user, if Clone, Array, Rail Clone and Point Clone Plus (just to pick four kindred functions) were collapsed down into one duplication tool. It would make all manner of sense, as they're all subsets of the same basic function, and would clean up the workspace a lot.

By the same token, even when LightWave was at it's peak, when it's tool-power to price put it way ahead of everything else in the market, it's uptake in the UK just wasn't that widespread. "Ohh, why aren't you using Max?" "Because it's mommy was a CAD package, and we're doing animation here". I got so sick of saying that. "Why aren't you using Softimage/Maya?" "Because this does 95% of what I want to do (and a couple hundred percent of what my clients want to do)) for about 1/3rd the price on a bad day."

A lot of it comes down to marketing. I went to see a thing in London with Joe Letteri from Weta giving a talk on their work on King Kong a couple of weeks back. It was being hosted by Escape Studios, and to be frank the level of presentation was utterly noddy. "We attached dots to Andy Serkis' face, for a technique called facial capture", the audience was informed as though the secrets of the Universe were being revealed. Whoopie doo.

However, it was when the Escape Studios guy said "And now we'll show you the Autodesk demo reel". Man, I died inside a little seeing shots from Serenity (and I think one or two from Galactica as well), and seeing the Zoic logo in the Autodesk demo reel as I realised that even if you're just rendering something in Maya, because it can sling more stuff around in a scene, then Autodesk will shove your work in their demo reel. Even if 99.999% of the work was done in LightWave.

Now that's mean and nasty and brutish, but it's one of the reasons why Autodesk have sewn up such a huge amount of the 3D animation marketplace - their marketing machine is shameless and bare-faced about showing anything that's impressive no matter how peripherally involved their tools may have been. Also, a bunch of work from a bunch of studios gets done in LightWave, but because of the way these things are set up, those studios are apparently contractually obligated not to mention that, because Maya or Max or Autodesk's compositing tools (Constipation? Something like that) were used.

Against that kind of marketing, then what's a person to do? The toolset's obviously secondary to some commissioning editor who doesn't know his knob from a nurb and just gets it drummed into him at every freakin' junket that Maya Is Teh Animationizorrr and nothing else exists.

If the 3D Market is a battlefield, then NewTek are being all chivalrous and noble, never shooting the unarmed, never bayonetting someone just 'cause they happen to be there, trying to bolt a new scope to the weird shotgun/rilfe combo thing that's covered with gaffertape while the other 3D companies are shelling the arena with nerve gas and gleefully mowing down anyone who's not either running away really fast or surrendering.

And sadly, it seems to be working for them.

Having had that particular braindump, I can't see myself ever stopping using LightWave. Yeah, the Peebler Elves have made the RISC variant of a modelling tool, and it's OK and quick and stuff. But buggering around with a 3rd party modeler is a layer of clunkiness, and most of the time, Mordor's bits and pieces aren't necessary (not in the stack-'em-high sell-'em-cheap jobs I've been getting anyway).

The renderer is still the prettiest out-of-the-box going, and with FPrime it's, well, yummy.

And, to be completely honest, I've got a huge great glinting chip on my shoulder because I have an overdeveloped Y'aintTheBossOMe Gland, and having some lackwitted puke telling me I have to learn Maya to animate in this town makes the big vein in my forehead bulge. What right has some goombah who's never slung a keyframe in his life, let alone juggled nine-channel motion curves for dozens of objects simultaneously got to tell me which frakkin' software to use? Get the smeg out of my kitchen, ya *$(#!

All the same, their crappy marketing tactics work. So unless NT gets some deeply fiendishly clever marketting out there to invade the brainspace of the Wetas and the Imageworks of the world, then I can't help but worry it'll be the same dozen LightWave studios hanging on in 5 years time, with just about the same employees because nobody wants to jump into the void.

Anyway. I think I probably owe you lot money now after that braindump.

*edit*


Will Lw die, nope, of course not, folks have been bleating that same old song since the 5.0 days. What it may not do is have a huge market share, or be the "app of choice", but as long as a viable market of users exists, it will continue.

Yeah, absolutely. People have been saying LW's about to die since LONG before 5.0 mate ;) And it will keep on trucking, and I'm sure that down the road, to quote a certain Captain Tightpants, we will rise again. It's just right now, the market seems to be feeling the squeeze, is all.

gatz
10-09-2006, 04:03 AM
The problem with many is that they feel overly procedural and long winded. Much of the time I just want or need to get things done quickly without a lot of hoops or constraints.

This is exactly the problem with much of LW. Creating a Motion Path is a 2 app, 2 plugin process that is stupefying. Allowing TCB editing of said path is another function. I long for just being able to edit bezier handles of the path. I have to look it up every time I need it. And this is basic stuff.

Yog
10-09-2006, 04:12 AM
However, it was when the Escape Studios guy said "And now we'll show you the Autodesk demo reel". Man, I died inside a little seeing shots from Serenity (and I think one or two from Galactica as well), and seeing the Zoic logo in the Autodesk demo reel as I realised that even if you're just rendering something in Maya, because it can sling more stuff around in a scene, then Autodesk will shove your work in their demo reel. Even if 99.999% of the work was done in LightWave.Fairs fair. You still get people here calling for King Kong to appear on Newtek's demo real because out of all those many thousands of FX shots, 5 spears were modelled and rendered in LW.
All companies do this, and Newtek certainly aren't shy about doing it themselves. How many times have you seen Newtek list a big blockbuster FX laiden film on their credits, only to find it was used just for the title sequence ?

SplineGod
10-09-2006, 04:25 AM
SplineGod,

I do flash for work, but spend all my money on 3d. I guess you could call it an obsession:help: I have downloaded Blender, and it looked good the few times I opened it, but I ain't going to go that route now... I have spent to much else where!

I work on my reel when ever I get some free time, and It will be done when I am happy with it.:) Hopefully it will get me some work. If not... thats cool too. I will be just as happy doing flash, and creating 3d for fun. Plus I do get to use 3d in my flash projects a lot, and logos too.

Don't know if I have every thanked you before, but I have learned much about LW and 3d from you. So thanks...:thumbsup:

I honestly hope we can both continue to use LW for a very long time!


Thank YOU very much! :)

What Ive thought about sometimes is what could Ray Harryhausen have done with programs like LW, Blender or others? We have a great deal of power in our hands with LW. I feel I know LW very well but then theres many aspects Ive yet to master. I think most people have yet to push LW even close to what its capable of. Ill say the same about most apps including Blender.

Check out Elephants Dream at http://orange.blender.org/
Its a nice looking piece and **** impressive coming from a free app. Yes it has its rough spots but minor compared to the rest of it.

Sometimes I think if we spent more time with our noses to the grindstone actually producing cool stuff we would look up once in awhile and realize how lucky we are to live in this time where we have such powerful hardwardware and software thats so cheap and accessible. I think sometimes we get too caught up with worrying about the Jones' across the street as opposed to just making stuff :)

sammael
10-09-2006, 04:29 AM
This is an interesting thread, its a bit sad that everyone seems to agree that LW is not up to standard. I do 3D work as a hobby atm but I hope one day soon to get a job in the industry as im getting more and more fed up with my current profession and staying up later and later to put a decent folio together. In Melbourne where I live more and more large games developers & production studios are popping up mainly due I think to Australias relatively cheap production costs compared to America and Europe especially.
I have been keeping my eyes out for jobs for about a year now and I have literally not seen one for a lightwave user, but plenty for maya/max and a few for xsi.
Im starting to get sick of constantly wondering if learning LW over another app was the worst possible choice I could have made. I love the way LW works and thats why I stick with it, im hoping my work will show my potential to employers rather than my choice of 3D package.
Inevetably it seems however that when/if I do score a job in the industry I will have to face the learning curve of learning another app.
I got LW 9 because it was full of promise, sadly I have found that although it has some handy new features most of them seem to be badly implimented and slow. Other parts of LW that need desperate attention have not been updated at all & to my horror no instancing. I can appreciate that this takes time/money etc but maybe it is better just to bite the bullet and learn another package even if it is slower and sloppier to use... its a constant delemma playing on my mind and by the sound of it plenty of others as well.
My 2 cents...

SplineGod
10-09-2006, 04:34 AM
Fairs fair. You still get people here calling for King Kong to appear on Newtek's demo real because out of all those many thousands of FX shots, 5 spears were modelled and rendered in LW.
All companies do this, and Newtek certainly aren't shy about doing it themselves. How many times have you seen Newtek list a big blockbuster FX laiden film on their credits, only to find it was used just for the title sequence ?

Thats very true. Also companies dont make a lot of money selling software to studios. Many times they discount it or even give it away. Very few studios have over 20 employees. Most CGI is done by very small shops. Software developers like to use the Studios for bragging rights, to claim that their software was used in the production of popular films and tv show or games etc. It sells software.

Most of the money made from 3d software is outside of those big Studios. Much of what people see on the big screen wasnt produced by off the shelf versions of Maya but version where a battery of prgrammers wrote custom tools. That particular aspect is never mentioned to potential buyers. :)

Sammael,
If you like LW continue working with it. Most apps are more similar then dissimilar. I know ppl who were hired off LW reels to work in Maya, XSI or Max.
By all means if getting a job entails learning another app then do it. Learning multiple apps is pretty standard these days anyway. Keep in mind that most people who
know LW know it better then Maya. Most people I know out here that know Maya typically know a few aspects of it. So when youre asked if you know Maya they dont
mean it the same way as asking you if you know LW. Thats pretty much a given. I wouldnt worry about it. If you can express your artistic view better with LW then put it
on a reel. You can tell them that it was done with LW and when they ask if you know Software X you can say yes. Find out which aspect you want to become familar with
and focus on that. :)

Phil
10-09-2006, 04:37 AM
There's a large list of missing/broken stuff in Layout and Modeler that everyone knows about, and NT are committed to fixing at some point in 9.x, but the developer stuff is just as important to get right. In fact, I'd love to get to grips with LScript. I started to work through the tutorials in the user guide, but cannot be bothered to finish simply because I know I cannot rely on it to work. Last time I tried, following the code in the tutorial to the letter, info() would cause Modeler to crash. I never heard back from whoever it was that NewTek had contracted to fix up LScript, so that was the end of that. The situation in 9.0 is even worse, it seems.

Two things working against LW include the continuing disparity between LScript and the SDK, and the constant breakage of various areas of LScript. LScript should be able to do everything that the SDK provides for C developers, albeit slower.

Maya sees a lot of interest here because of MEL being absolutely fundamental to the program, rather than a bolted on semi-functional thing. XSI uses standard scripting languages to achieve the same. NT need to understand this and commit to complete parity between LScript and the SDK. They also need to work to greatly improve QA for developer-related features. No more broken LScript, please!

Pavlov
10-09-2006, 04:41 AM
I agree with Intuition's long post. So much has to be done,and imho strategic moves have to be done too.
But i have a suspect from a lot of time, i'd like to share it with you all to hear what you think.
How much the word "nostalgia" affects LW development ? Is it probable that NT guys left (Fori, PM people, Modo people) because NT's headpeople are nostalgically binded to a very old-school, limited-range thinking ?
Is it possible that NT deeply needs a fresher view on CGI world to change direction, and not only to move faster ?
Why otherwise they dont seem to care about other markets, where they could find a real boost ?
Is it possible that just a small part of NT's money goes into LW to make something that is, in their POV, just a complement for VT while we think (or better we hope) LW is high on their priorities ?
Maxon is a very small team, but the difference in quality and speed of their moves is not a matter of opinions, and same goes for other teams.
It's necessary to mention that we're in the middle of that "parallel changeover" so we should be very prudent and wait the end of the cycle, but my pov is that what i saw until now is good, nice but really not enough to see a needed re-start.
Hopefully someone can correct me.

Paolo

Yog
10-09-2006, 04:43 AM
Sameal.
Don't worry, your time spent with LW will not be wasted. It is a true saying that different software will not make you a better 3D artist/technitian, it will only determin how quickly/easilly you will complete your project.

Modelling isn't about knowing what button splits polygons, it's about form, likewise animation is about timing and emotion, not knowing what the auto-key button does, rendering is about knowing how real materials behave and having an appreciation of lighting, not knowing where the AA functions are.
When you do get a job with a 3D studio, you may or may not need to learn another package, but that is nothing in comparrison to learning the true skils of 3D.

Bog
10-09-2006, 04:51 AM
Modelling isn't about knowing what button splits polygons, it's about form, likewise animation is about timing and emotion, not knowing what the auto-key button does, rendering is about knowing how real materials behave and having an appreciation of lighting, not knowing where the AA functions are.
When you do get a job with a 3D studio, you may or may not need to learn another package, but that is nothing in comparrison to learning the true skils of 3D.

And there's yer distillate of raw truth right there.

Yog
10-09-2006, 05:01 AM
But i have a suspect from a lot of time, i'd like to share it with you all to hear what you think.
How much the word "nostalgia" affects LW development ? Is it probable that NT guys left (Fori, PM people, Modo people) because NT's headpeople are nostalgically binded to a very old-school, limited-range thinking ?
Is it possible that NT deeply needs a fresher view on CGI world to change direction, and not only to move faster ?I don't believe this is to do with nostalgia, more the realities of business.
As much as we would like to think of Newtek as a warm cuddly quaint company that only produce LW because they like us so much, it's not true. Newtek are a business, and the aim of business is to make a profit, which in the real worl equates to "putting the minimum in that you can, to achieve the maximum return". This isn't just about Newtek, this is something all companies do.

I think even Newtek would agree that if they wanted to achieve the latest and greatest Uber 3D app, the best way would be to forget about all legacy links and re-write Lightwave completely from the ground up. But they absolutely cannot do this.
The 3D market is fragile enough at the momment, and Newtek certainly can't afford to go 3-4 years without a release in order to do a proper re-write, knowing that even when they did come back to the market the product would still need a lot of refining.
Softimage/XSI is the proof of this. They went from being one of the two great leaders in the market place, to almost disapearing completely during their re-write. It was around 4 years after the initial release of XSI that they began to make any real headway back into the 3D market share, and are still having to work really hard to regain their former glory.

tyrot
10-11-2006, 03:22 PM
dear wavers..

i dont understand one thing..a simple thing

one guy, Steve Worley, almost shifted the previewing-rendering industry alone..

one guy, Victor (LWCADLORD), almost brought heaven for Arch-industrial-modelers..

one guy, Mr. PICTRIX, almost remodelled the modeler in time. (without him i m lost)

one guy, Enki (the bringer of PIM) is about to change the 3d industry with Lightwave layout..

one guy, KRAY man, building his GI temple and trying to give us VRAY for LW.

so the question..

Why dont we have a great update from NT's own LW development team?

i dont wanna buy "NT has limited sources" excuse. And You cant be smaller than one person, right? If they can do it, why NT cant do it?

How do they develope VT? TRICASTER? SPEEDEDIT?
a very bad nightmare...i keep thinking.. Look at the strenghts of NT and new products they are wholeheartly support and develope. More like Video Production tools right? I think someone has to confess that LW is getting "the minor" attention in the NT's corridors.

That alone can be frustrating for LW's new team. They took over an old code and trying to catch the present day. If so , someone this time should say "people you GOTTA wait ..stay with us and wait." But I think the MINORITY will wait. I have faith, i will wait but others? How many freelancer will wait?


For years, i followed and believed Spline God's theory on LW. I think it is getting old. It doesnt justify my business anymore. May be i m more in business and his ideas over LW dont impress me. May be you can say, i LEFT FANBOYISM. Or Because i m seeing what is happening everyday. IN every talk with clients, in every newsletter that copy of a copy of a copy, or in every Siggraph of a copy of a copy ...

And BOG yes it DOES have a nice, clearest right-out-pf the-box rendering system, but NO ONE wants WEAK GI RENDER anymore. Those days are over mate. You know it, i know it. Everyone knows it. That RENDERING issue alone i was having greatest hopes about LW.

Because of mighty fame of Electric Image's fantastic rendering system and Jay Roth's name alone was giving me faith in terms of the NEW LOOK new FEEL of LW. i was thinking that brute power will be,one way or another, implemented into LW. But still there is no news about it. OUR renders are our selling points. So probably we will have MAX like LW in future...Supported by great 3rd party renderers. SO then we should buy KRAY and support its development.

Last thing, i was so harsh to blame Marketing in my earlier posts. How can you market a 3d product with brand new nodal system or NGONS or shortcomings in its 9th version.


best

Lightwolf
10-11-2006, 03:48 PM
Why dont we have a great update from NT's own LW development team?

In this context: Third parties have much more time to design and develop a solution focussing on a small part of the problem.
This is not possible if you have 10 times as many people having to work on a hundred times more open gaps to fill.

Speaking out of experience (if y'all will excuse the plug) - exrTrader was born out of necessity. I played with the thought for the past few years, thinking about how to approach it, then discussed it with some people and then developed it (in relatively short time - after all, coding it was easy then).
However, it is the first part (design and discussion - r&d) which makes or breaks it (I hope it shows), and I doubt that the development team has as much "leasure" to do so as third parties do. Most third parties are also more entrenched in the day to day business of getting shots out of the door, a experience a dedicated development team can only get second hand from users reports.

Cheers,
Mike

Panikos
10-11-2006, 04:10 PM
There were things that required immediate attention 3 years ago, but some minds had different decisions. Some more things required immediate attention, still there was nobody to touch them. Suddenly LW looks like ancient.
I wont mention what other apps I am using to fill LW hiatus.
The hiatus is becoming bigger and I lost the faith about when Newtek will catch up. Its not pleasant to write these things, I never wished LW had such luck.
Miracles ? Lets be serious !

Pavlov
10-11-2006, 05:17 PM
Yog, i know what you're saying but it's not only that.
If - say - i knew that Newtek considers LW something to keep alive to spread some juice out of it, doing very a little and promising a lot, i would begin the process of cross-jumping to other tools tomorrow.
I rely heavily on technology i use, i invest money, time and brain resources. We can use several app but main one should be competitively developed.
So i'll repeat what my fear is: can it be that Newtek's internal policy is the problem ? Can it be that PM and Modo guys went out because they needed money for R&D and Newtek preferred to invest in other directions ?
BTW, i'm not saying they are "wrong" in doing this; as Yog says they do business. I'm saying that - imho - it's not unprobable they are doing this, so i guess we'll see nice features and LW will stay overall a good and useable app like 's now, i'll also keep upgrading it, but it will stay years behind competitors.

Paolo

Yog
10-11-2006, 06:24 PM
Yog, i know what you're saying but it's not only that.
If - say - i knew that Newtek considers LW something to keep alive to spread some juice out of it, doing very a little and promising a lot, i would begin the process of cross-jumping to other tools tomorrow. Please don't get me wrong, all businesses do this.
Last year at a public conference a leading executive at Autodesk stated that it wasn't in Autodesk's best interest to inovate, rather that it made better business sence to copy and/or purchase existing technology. This has been evident in MAX for at least the last few years, I just wonder how long it is before the same starts happening to Maya.

The only companies that seem to not persue this practice are those new to the market, or those that have been out of the mainstreem for a while and are looking to gain/regain as much marketshare as possible by offering more than the competitors.

prospector
10-11-2006, 11:07 PM
You know it, i know it. Everyone knows it.
As Sgt. Shultz would say " I know nothinggggg"

robk
10-11-2006, 11:11 PM
Been looking at M*d* recently and watching some tutorials and although we don't model much of anything in LW (ACAD instead) if we did think of switching to do our modelling in a 3D app I wouldn't give the LW modeler a second look over Modo's.
And anyways what's happening with Fprime? It gets used for virtaully all our renders and since that one statment a few month's ago we haven't heard diddily squat!
And Modos got that Fprime wanna be built in. Do you think the Hastings Peebler group aren't watching the industry and innovation is high on their list.
Don't get me wrong Modo is by no means perfect but it seems to be developing at a lot quicker pace than LW.
I myself came to LW 7.5 from a orphaned 3D app (Imagine) and would hate to think I made the wrong decision choosing LW as it's sucessor. The hard part is the Modo boys trying to make it easy for you to switch. (load LW objects: Sure! come on down, Load LW scenes: Sure! come on down)

Please Newtek prove to me that I haven't bought another defunct package

t4d
10-12-2006, 12:35 AM
Sad but i notice one thing today doing the forum surf.
small and silly but I'll say it anyway. ( Love to put my foot in mouth =)

IN Cgtalk, Modo, XSI, maya etc, etc forums you can always click the guy's user name as see websites, art work etc and see the standard and the POV the guy has got.

I always have done and will keep doing it, when i read someones opinion i have not seen before.

Lightwave HUGE % of users seem to not have websites, art work etc showing but have lots of opinion on how good LW is.

Now 2 - 3 years ago You click on a LW user name and a wonderful site would pop up and whatever the guy said you had to Admit he was an artist.

it's not the same anymore ... they still some talent using LW but it has drop by a HUGE marge in just the last 2 years.

LW 8.5 was the important one and Newtek missed it and LW 9.5 is the last Change before they pretty much have to move on and rebuild a completely new user base.

sad, LW 9 has nice improvments in speed and Features but it really was not what LW needed was it ?
users seem to be moving and it's clear to see.
what will newtek do about it ?
the last Newtek newsletter didn't seem to address to many issues LW is facing ..why ?

tyrot
10-12-2006, 03:09 AM
dear neverko

there are two type of users.....the ones who stays with LW and screams for better LW...

and others who switched way before LW9 and bang the funeral drums for LW.

I feel like in first group. I can complain, moan, scream...just for better LW. Cuz for years , i was making songs for LW..

And websites... come on..noone needs to prove or to show anything to anyone. Some of us are living in a country where there is no any copyright protection. When i put something online, my competition is using it for his own work. So, just to satisfy some crazy people, i CANT risk my Fortune.


So go stick that foot in your mouth.

well said!. one more suggestion. USE YOUR OWN RIG for it..:)

best.

Pavlov
10-12-2006, 03:09 AM
Robk, problem is that actually every 3D apps seems to be developed faster than LW, putting aside our "parallel changeover" situation (i never take any word literally until i see myself).
This is why i'm trying to find a reason for this, being mine just personal speculations btw.

Paolo

t4d
10-12-2006, 03:10 AM
happy to read your opinion Neverko, you have everyright to it
and I have a right to mine also.

I have to say I'm not much of a Lux fan boy, I use it and love it for what it does,
but Fanboy,..? well i do take exception to that one ( I know my name is in the 202 about box =)
but hey I still poke issues that i find in modo just as hard as the issue i used to find in LW.

you really do need to read the Modo forums more ? remember my 500 meg OBJ issue i raised they ?
in the end I clearly posted Modo could not load a 127 meg OBJ
yet LW 9 can and added Lw 9 new camera render at twice the speed of LW 8 !!
I really do use the software i say i use and in that process I find limts !! ( should i not post those issue i find ? )

I find it odd that i don't seem to have right to even post here ??
I own LW 9 have since lw 6, and I use it in commerical productions.. so I'm alittle lost with that comment sorry ..
if you want just happy talk about LW, maybe stick with spinquad ?

I've been a LW user for afew years I posted my feelings on what has changed over the last 2 years.
take it how you want.

website well YEAH i have not updated mine in 2 years I've been to busy sorry
tho been updating my CGtalk one laterly I got some work from it =)

but i have work on show, if it's not to your high standard i except that
they are many artist better then me in the world,. But not many know how to rig ;)

and I must add I have only 2 client images on my site ( both from the same job )
the rest and all private weekend work So no NDA or copyright issues for my clients or futures clients have ever been effected. so the copyright issues point seems alittle lame to me =p

colkai
10-12-2006, 03:19 AM
neverko- Harsh, very harsh.
Whilst I agree, not having a webiste is no indication of what you're doing with LW so taking that slant is at best provocative, the reply didn't help matters.

Yes, we know Peter can be considered very anti-LW at times and very much an evangelist for XSI, but some of what he says is to be considered, LW is at a pivotal point in it's history.

I know of people who are too busy in real work to have a personal website, under NDA, they cannot disclose what they are doing, but they are industry professionals using LW so the "No website" argument is a bit invalid.

However, I have noticed a lack of work, apart from a few folks, which makes me wonder, why is this? Ok, I'll put my hand up and say I'm just as much to blame, but I do have other commitments which take priority for me. Thus the fact my own website is severely out of date.

As to LW and people leaving and LW9 not being enough out of the gate, as much as I hate to say it, he's got a point. (Can someone please pick Peter off the floor? I think he fainted in shock ;) ).

I am considered by many to be an uber-fanboy of LW but lately, even I find myself wondering if LW9.X will be all it should be and all I hope.
I don't earn money from this, so I can play the waiting game and if it fails to impress, well, it's just a hobby. Those making money from it can't afford themselves that luxury and as much as poeple are coming to LW, no mistake, people are leaving it too.

I'm a bit uppy-downy on this as I am cynical, so I wonder if this version will cut the mustard, but I'm also an eternal dreamer and optimist so I like to think it may well all happen.

Whether it happens in a manner and time-frame that suits everyone, gott say, doubt it very much.

I've plenty to do in LW to keep me busy at the moment, but do I think it doesn't need serious improvements still? No, certainly not.

An awful lot, as Peter has intimated, it going to hinge on exactly where LW is by 9.5 and if any major work is planned beyond that within the LW9.X cycle.

I'm not naive, I know if Newtek leave too much for LW10 and beyond, that is going to be far too little too late for many people.

Wonderpup
10-12-2006, 03:32 AM
It is curious how many people who post negative stuff ( I include myself among them) do still persist in hanging around- so clearly Lightwave is doing something right.

One of the problems at moment, I suspect, is that a lot of the work being done is not really visable, so the sense of being 'dead in the water' persists.

I think the real concern here is that of being 'left behind' in what is a very fast moving field. Although I have been frustrated by 9s recent issues with the hub, its really these long term concerns that drive me to look at other apps.

Newteks freind at the moment is good old human inertia- we want to stay with what we know and are confortable with- but clearly this has it's limits.

I'm sure none of this is news to Newtek, but they're kind of caught here between the need to consolidate and the need to innovate, to show visable signs of progression.

For me the balance is slowly tipping toward learning a new app, but I'm not there yet, and if NT can start putting out some convincing updates I'm sure I still be around bitching and moaning this time next year.

t4d
10-12-2006, 03:42 AM
I know of people who are too busy in real work to have a personal website, under NDA, they cannot disclose what they are doing, but they are industry professionals using LW so the "No website" argument is a bit invalid.

However, I have noticed a lack of work, apart from a few folks, which makes me wonder, why is this? Ok, I'll put my hand up and say I'm just as much to blame, but I do have other commitments which take priority for me. Thus the fact my own website is severely out of date.

As to LW and people leaving and LW9 not being enough out of the gate, as much as I hate to say it, he's got a point. (Can someone please pick Peter off the floor? I think he fainted in shock ;) )..

colkai man we have hit heads in the pass, but but i always did see where you were coming from, ( and I think you saw my POV sometimes too ;)

I did see the reasons and must add agree with them for your situation. so I didn't fall on the floor :D


and the website issue I agree to it's a very small issue that hey mostly means totally nothing about anything at all !

BUT I noticed it today reading this thread after doing the around at other forums and well .. i posted what i thought .:devil:



You can also be sure that I don't run around with grudges, especially against people I don't really know. Maybe that's why I speak out the first thing that springs mind, this time, an all considered, not very well composed post. But that's me. I yell loud and forget. I just have a sticky memory for who says what where :D Please don't hate me :p

dude That's forums =)

But i have to add YES i done abit of hacking at lw but I did run into Major issues :devil:
Don't forgive me, I don't care, I had Problems So i posted those problems and found others hitting the same things. ( so i built a bridge and got over and around those issues ;)


but when i get a job in after setting it up in my other app I normally do some testing in LW as well, LW render is still a nice thing to have around when you a freelancer, Smaller or large studio.
normally the client tells me which way to go.:)

t4d
10-12-2006, 03:52 AM
....

colkai
10-12-2006, 04:40 AM
Hey, war is he.l.l., oh sorry, 3D I mean. ;)
No, as I say, if you're making money and you need to switch, you got to, loyalty to a package does not put food on the table.

I really am hoping some "surprises" are pulled out of the bag for LW users, after all, some of us actually paid for our LW9 upgrade last August so I think it's understandable folks are getting itchy now. (Yes, I know we have 9.0 but a lot of people are still having a lot of problems).

I am 100% sure Newtek are very painfully aware of the negative feeling and dread/hope people have for this release and i'm also sure they are doing their level best to deal with things.

I just don't want to see LW go the way of the likes of 'Visual Reality' and 'Imagine', which in their day, were quite advanced. I know none of us will really know how things will pan out until the dust settles after the final LW9.X release and sure, the new team have done some good things so far.

Like you said inititally Peter, I think LW9.5 will give many people their "answers" one way or the other as to how things are going to progress in terms of both features provided and level of development.

I guess, when all is said and done, we can only "Watch this space".

Yog
10-12-2006, 05:39 AM
I just don't want to see LW go the way of the likes of 'Visual Reality' .....Blimey, that's a blast from the past :D
The first ray tracing program I owned. Of course I did the typical thing when you first get a ray tracer, I turned ray tracing on for EVERYTHING then hit the render button. Spent the next two days waiting for ANYTHING to appear on the screen :D
Of course, this was back in the pre-Pentium days, and we had to search the whole department for someone with a CD drive to actually load the program :l33t:

colkai
10-12-2006, 06:02 AM
As long as it doesn't go the way of DAZ LightWave v10 :p

Don't even JOKE about such things! ;) :p

Bog
10-12-2006, 07:46 AM
I am considered by many to be an uber-fanboy of LW but lately, even I find myself wondering if LW9.X will be all it should be and all I hope.

Not as much as I am, I think. Then again I seem to have a huge great bulls-eye pointed on my chest for some of our more... fractious... members. But yeah, I'm having a sorta "End of Honeymoon" feeling with 9.x. Nine is still a brilliant advance on what we had before, and is definately the single biggest improvement in a point-oh release... but... well... there's still a lot that's broken, and I've gotta admit, I was hoping for something that felt a bit more seamless. In a way, the more full-featured LW becomes, it more I find myself wishing for a smoother integration of those features.

I still have more faith in NewTek than I have with any other 3D company - the only other serious contender for my dosh was Maya, and having been eaten by Autocrat, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before some shambling chimera, half Max half Maya, comes dragging out of their research labs, drooling steaming black ichor from it's six mouths and screaming in it's eternal, malformed agony. Or something.

I am a bit worried, though. As thrilled as I am with the 9.0 release, the deathly silence on the 9.x cycle, and the General Industry Noise I hear - which admittedly is often as misleading anything else on the intertubes - does make me feel like we've got a couple of years of hard, uphill slog to keep our place in the game, let alone expand it and make it hale and hearty.


I don't earn money from this, so I can play the waiting game and if it fails to impress, well, it's just a hobby.

Yeah, I've got my livelihood riding on this. Whee, doggy...

UnCommonGrafx
10-12-2006, 08:14 AM
G.I.N, nice coin of phrase.

Moving into new office space, I can't/won't afford much new software for a while. "Whee doggy", is absolutely right.
"Get this dawg a movin', ya'll"

Pavlov
10-12-2006, 09:13 AM
I still have more faith in NewTek than I have with any other 3D company


I admit my "faith" in Newtek is at 80% just "hope".
Beside promises which i neven listen to, i dont find (yet ?) many concrete elements to support a motivated "faith".

Paolo

bobakabob
10-12-2006, 09:35 AM
Cheer up guys... after reading this thread I had to listen to "Hatful of Hollow" by the Smiths to recover. :D

Andyjaggy
10-12-2006, 10:03 AM
I'm sure it's only a matter of time before some shambling chimera, half Max half Maya, comes dragging out of their research labs, drooling steaming black ichor from it's six mouths and screaming in it's eternal, malformed agony.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Down with autodesk.

A consolidation of tools, and new streamlined intuitive interface would be oh so welcome right now. There is a lot of power behind Lightwave it is just hidden under layers of buttons and popup windows.

tyrot
10-12-2006, 10:20 AM
dear wavers

i am downloading C4D demo now. Why? Because new Version 10 update looks pretty interesting and THERE IS A DEMO. So i can look and try out. C4D has some plugins for archcad and some other cad based programs even some other lovely features like AE connection, hair, etc etc. But what i see (first time i looked at their website) they are focused on 3d.

Probably you dont wanna reply about the subject but my Guess is NEWTEK will be Video Production Software-Hardware maker in future.

So if there is no Focus on LW, unfortunately with limited team, within limited sources will be producing only Limited user base which has unlimited problems.

Best

Chuck
10-12-2006, 10:20 AM
There's a lot of fiction being purveyed as fact when folks claim that LightWave's use in film and television, or any other professional industry making use of 3D, is declining or users are defecting in droves. The fact of the matter is that we do regular and rigorous market research and of course, we know what we are selling. LightWave upgrade sales are doing well and LightWave is also enjoying healthy sales among new customers. As far as major houses using the product in high profile projects, we are maintaining if not growing in those venues, and are directing our development and marketing efforts toward growth in all markets. LightWave's trend is upward in sales and quite a long time ago we were able to begin an expansion program and have been able to steadily add to our development team and our marketing team ever since. Furthermore, NewTek as a whole is on the grow, with our video product line scoring major successes with each new product release.

Yes, there are some companies in the 3D market that particularly seem to like to market to LightWave customers and would of course like to paint the picture that that they are being very successful at it and we're dwindling away. Take that with a really large grain of salt; there is always change going on among customers' choices for tools, and on an anecdotal basis this can and has been made to look like a lot more than it is; in terms of the stats, though, the truth of the matter is that we're doing better than most in the 3D market at keeping pretty much all of our customers including our highest end customers, and we're growing our customer base.

All of that said, are we aware that we have to move fast and to offer more than just what everyone else has, in order to continue our growth? Absolutely, and the effort going into that is intense and immense. Our team of developers is among the hardest working group of people I've ever known, and the folks charged with investing a vision and direction into the efforts of that team have a solid understanding of the market, the needs of users, and the shape and capability of the competition, and are leading in a direction that will result in an innovative seamless application that makes 3D graphics a comfortable and fast province for any artist or team of artists. You won't have to be a technician, but the technicians will also find all that they need at hand. As well, LightWave as a tool will work better than ever with other professional tools in the pipeline, extending seamlessness outside to other applications.

Development on the first post v9 release is going well; and when it is ready for Open Beta we'll announce and commence. We aren't ready at this time to provide any more detail on feature improvements than we released at SIGGRAPH, but I will say that one main purpose of this cycle was a bedrock change that needed to be tested in relative isolation, and it both solves a lot of issues and sets the stage for a lot of excitement. It isn't glamorous on it's own (I'm sure most of you in the OB will say "Huh?" when you see it on the list - I sure did! ;) ), but boy, does it lead to some really glamorous stuff for coming releases in the 9.x cycle! :rock:

Exception
10-12-2006, 10:41 AM
Thanks for the promises, chuck.
Unfortunately, here on the forum at least, you might have noticed a steady decline in the believe in promises.
I'm not doubting Lw is moving forward, and I'm sure it will remain a great application. What is however unsettling is the seeming lack of effort placed in the pursuit of promises. Most unhappyness about 9 is about unfulfilled features, or half baked ones, not about the direction that was taken or the growth of the product.
Where's that network licence? It was promised to be released in december of last year.

Wickster
10-12-2006, 10:55 AM
Thanks Chuck. A small statement like that would make a lot of us happy. An ongoing communication, perhaps weekly or a couple of times a week will probably secure most our faith. Some of us are just asking for NT to communicate with us users on a regular basis. It makes the wait for those features a lot smoother.

Point of advice however, try to sound boring and uninterested when you're teasing us with new features, because by making your statement about a feature with "...and sets the stage for a lot of excitement." and "but boy, does it lead to some really glamorous stuff for coming releases! makes us feel more anxious and bitter waiting for it. Try to sound like, "welll there's this thing we're trying to implement, its an OK addition I guess, hard to explain, I'll just explain it when soon, once I know what it is...programmer stuff, anyway.... Heheh :D

Thanks again Chuck for the info, makes my patience simmer down a bit for one more week. :D

Phil
10-12-2006, 10:56 AM
You won't have to be a technician, but the technicians will also find all that they need at hand. As well, LightWave as a tool will work better than ever with other professional tools in the pipeline, extending seamlessness outside to other applications.

To try and pin this statement down a bit, does this extend to making LScript a) more reliable between releases (breakage seems to be an ever present , but moving, feature of LScript since it first appeared) and b) feature-complete, permanently, with respect to the LW SDK?

LScript really should become as useful and integrated as possible. Often, though, it seems rather like an afterthought, with very limited reliability or QA.

sudac20
10-12-2006, 11:11 AM
Nothing personal Chuck, But I like others are loosing faith in Lightwave. Wasnít v. 9 supposed to be the most stable/bug free version of Lightwave to date? Thus far V.9 is bug ridden unstable piece of @@@. Modeler is no longer even functional. The open GL performance is so poor it makes the application almost useless and it is far from stable.

I updated to v.9 like many others, to give it one last chance and thus far I am not satisfied. I have been forced to switch to Modo(great program) and XSI (great program) and get rid of some of my Lightwave seats. I donít want to sound harsh but thus far Lightwave 9 appears to have been rushed and is far from stable. I would like nothing more then to see Lightwave succeed but as a small business owner I canít wait around forever for Newtek to right the ship. I for one will not pre order v.10( like I have since v 5) unless I see some vast improvements in the 9x cycle. :thumbsdow

Chuck
10-12-2006, 11:26 AM
Thanks for the promises, chuck.
Unfortunately, here on the forum at least, you might have noticed a steady decline in the believe in promises.
I'm not doubting Lw is moving forward, and I'm sure it will remain a great application. What is however unsettling is the seeming lack of effort placed in the pursuit of promises. Most unhappyness about 9 is about unfulfilled features, or half baked ones, not about the direction that was taken or the growth of the product.
Where's that network licence? It was promised to be released in december of last year.


Every bit of our effort is directed toward making sure we fulfill our promises, and that effort does not stop at a 9 to 5 day. The features that shipped in LightWave v9 were each completed to specifications, and in some cases those specifications are a first iteration where a feature set is going to have additional functionality, and we've been frank in discussing that - and you and others have taken that frankness and misapplied it to call things unfinished that were in fact finished for v9, but will get more functions later - APS and the later-planned iterative subdivision being a case in point. We have a staged delivery plan for a number of features and improvements throughout the 9.x cycle, and at each stage a specified set of capabilities will be delivered. Impatience to receive those items scheduled for later in the cycle does not entitle anyone to portray us as having missed our goal for v9 with regard to a given feature. Where we did have to defer a given feature, we advised of that prior to going to Open Beta with v9.

Again, plans can be subject to change, as with network dongle support, projected for v9 but which will have to come later in the 9.x cycle. When that happens we do our best to advise of that at the most appropriate time. In the meantime, we are working on the network support, and a lot of other things, and the work never stops; and every single one of the features or changes being worked on has been asked for and is needed and important to a significant number of our customers. Your comments elsewhere that we add features no one has asked for or will use are simply mistaken.

colkai
10-12-2006, 11:38 AM
... one main purpose of this cycle was a bedrock change that needed to be tested in relative isolation, and it both solves a lot of issues and sets the stage for a lot of excitement. It isn't glamorous on it's own (I'm sure most of you in the OB will say "Huh?" when you see it on the list - I sure did! ;) ), but boy, does it lead to some really glamorous stuff for coming releases!

I think, herein lies one of the questions a lot of people, myself included, are wondering about. Whilst everyone understands LW had to change it's core to move on, there is a concern I think that LW9, is just a release to set the stage for work on LW10 and LW11.

It is my deepest hope that the advancements are not that far off and we will see them within the LW9 cycle, rather than the promise of seeing them in some future release down the road a ways.

Big promises were made for previous releases, but each time they seemed to slip away. LW9 itself is far from rock solid with crashes so easily repeatable, (edit of configs anyone?) that I was a bit saddened to find them in the 'gold' release. Like a few other people, I find myself drifting back to LW8.5 for more stable modelling sessions.


Thanks for the promises, chuck.
Unfortunately, here on the forum at least, you might have noticed a steady decline in the believe in promises.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, I am certainly now far more restrained in my anticipation of what will be released in this cycle, (compared to my initial impressions), whilst still hoping that "coming releases" refers to what we can expect within the current cycle and that I have mis-interpreted the reading of the statement.

bobakabob
10-12-2006, 12:24 PM
Big promises were made for previous releases, but each time they seemed to slip away. LW9 itself is far from rock solid with crashes so easily repeatable, (edit of configs anyone?) that I was a bit saddened to find them in the 'gold' release. Like a few other people, I find myself drifting back to LW8.5 for more stable modelling sessions.


Colkai,

Strange... I've found LW 9 Modeler to be rock solid - much more dependable than previous versions. I feel your pain as Modelling in 6 and even 7 sometimes felt like walking a tightrope. By LW 8 Modeller was a pleasure to work in. With LW9 I've not had a single crash since installation despite heavy useage. (BTW, I'm working on a duel Amd system with Nvidea graphics card. This hydra (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57181) model which is pretty polygon heavy was produced entirely in 9 over a period of weeks with no problems. Adding weight maps and skelegons was a breeze.) Is surfacing in Modeler an issue, maybe?

Layout does seems sensitive to other programs - MSM and iTunes, the latter which I've uninstalled. If I'm working in Layout I open first after rebooting and don't use any other programs other than Photoshop simultaneously. It's working fine. My only beef is that despite configuring the Hub to autosave there's no trace of a folder anywhere on my system.

Seems Lightwave has always been perceived as the underdog in the 3D big league. Back in the LW 5 days, doomsayers were always banging on about "Max Max blah". Remember those tedious LW vs Max threads? Then it was "Maya Maya blah". Now the XSI bores are trolling the Newtek forums. No problem constructively comparing strengths and weaknesses of programs of course, but some people are doing nothing but bash Lightwave, period. Time they got a life. I've used all these programs and yes they're good, but they have weaknesses too. IMO nothing feels as fast and intuitive as Lightwave. The doommongers know it too, otherwise they wouldn't be obsessively posting here.

Got to say, despite some of the issues raised on the thread I'm pleased with Lightwave's development so far - especially considering its cost relative to rival apps. It's reassuring to hear from the Newtek team and I do sense they are working flat out to raise Lightwave's profile.

Yog
10-12-2006, 12:26 PM
Thanks for the promises, chuck.
Unfortunately, here on the forum at least, you might have noticed a steady decline in the believe in promises.Yep, just never promise to ever release anything during Q4 ever again. :D

colkai
10-12-2006, 12:41 PM
Colkai,

Strange... I've found LW 9 Modeler to be rock solid - much more dependable than previous versions.

It's frustrating for sure, I can crash it at will by editing the configs. Even tried rebuilding them but doesn't take much to crash again. I've also been getting odd crashes if I work for too long in it now too.

Having to rebuild all my plugins is a pain as some are superceed in LW9 and some no longer work, so it's not as simple as just scanning a directory.

Consequently, I find it's safer to work in LW8.5 if I really need stability as that has always been solid for me.




Got to say, despite some of the issues raised on the thread I'm pleased with Lightwave's development so far - especially considering its cost relative to rival apps. It's reassuring to hear from the Newtek team and I do sense they are working flat out to raise Lightwave's profile.

Oh I don't doubt they are working hard, I'm also painfully aware of the "joys" of coding a big application, but my enthusiasm has been somewhat dampened of late.

Chuck
10-12-2006, 12:47 PM
To try and pin this statement down a bit, does this extend to making LScript a) more reliable between releases (breakage seems to be an ever present , but moving, feature of LScript since it first appeared) and b) feature-complete, permanently, with respect to the LW SDK?

LScript really should become as useful and integrated as possible. Often, though, it seems rather like an afterthought, with very limited reliability or QA.


I know everyone wants details about everything, and those will be released for each update in the proper time. Yes, there is a lot to consider and a lot to change with regard to scripting. That's on the agenda and, apologies, more than that I can't say until the appropriate time.

Auger
10-12-2006, 01:15 PM
Strange... I've found LW 9 Modeler to be rock solid - much more dependable than previous versions.

:agree: I recently finished up a project with a sub-d object that had 179,000 sub-d polys. Modeler never crashed once. This was on a machine with only 1 gig of RAM and yes it was pretty slow (OK, extremely slow) at times but no crashes.

I've also been doing a series of hi-res cell phones in LW9 without crashes. This is on a different, older machine (4-5 years old)

This is without the hub. That's a whole other issue. In fact, that is the issue.

Jon

Chuck
10-12-2006, 01:17 PM
I think, herein lies one of the questions a lot of people, myself included, are wondering about. Whilst everyone understands LW had to change it's core to move on, there is a concern I think that LW9, is just a release to set the stage for work on LW10 and LW11.

Well then, please check the edit, Colin; I've clarified that I meant 9.x releases, my apologies that I omitted that in my first run. And please remember and refer back to the messages we've issued from Jay. We've already made it clear that a great deal of advancement in capability is going to happen in the 9.x series. Yes, we're doing bedrock work, but we've already announced a lot of major feature enhancements to come, including CA improvements, etc.

The internet remembers everything and the internet has no memory at all. Things are read or viewed and shortly forgotten, and questions are asked to which the answers have been long given. All conversations are circles. Mention bedrock work and folks react as though you've said you aren't doing new features. Mention new features and people react as though you've said you aren't doing bugfixes and bedrock work. Mention both and then folks talk about what they don't like about marketing. Mention improvements to marketing and folks react as though you've said you aren't doing bedrock work on the application and the whole cycle starts again. And that's in each and every thread, cycling endlessly. If you couldn't keep some perspective on the endless loop and the way known answers submerge into forgetfulness in the stream of shared consciousness, one could give way to despair.

T-Light
10-12-2006, 01:31 PM
bobakabob-

My only beef is that despite configuring the Hub to autosave there's no trace of a folder anywhere on my system
Try Here.
C:\Documents and Settings\'Your User Name'\Local Settings\Temp\lwhub

T-Light
10-12-2006, 01:36 PM
Chuck -

The internet remembers everything and the internet has no memory at all. Things are read or viewed and shortly forgotten, and questions are asked to which the answers have been long given. All conversations are circles. Mention bedrock work and folks react as though you've said you aren't doing new features. Mention new features and people react as though you've said you aren't doing bugfixes and bedrock work. Mention both and then folks talk about what they don't like about marketing. Mention improvements to marketing and folks react as though you've said you aren't doing bedrock work on the application and the whole cycle starts again. And that's in each and every thread, cycling endlessly. If you couldn't keep some perspective on the endless loop and the way known answers submerge into forgetfulness in the stream of shared consciousness, one could give way to despair.
I like that :thumbsup:

bryphi7
10-12-2006, 01:38 PM
The internet remembers everything and the internet has no memory at all. Things are read or viewed and shortly forgotten, and questions are asked to which the answers have been long given. All conversations are circles. Mention bedrock work and folks react as though you've said you aren't doing new features. Mention new features and people react as though you've said you aren't doing bugfixes and bedrock work. Mention both and then folks talk about what they don't like about marketing. Mention improvements to marketing and folks react as though you've said you aren't doing bedrock work on the application and the whole cycle starts again. And that's in each and every thread, cycling endlessly. If you couldn't keep some perspective on the endless loop and the way known answers submerge into forgetfulness in the stream of shared consciousness, one could give way to despair.

What are you talking about??? That is not the problem... good try though!!!

Brian Arndt
10-12-2006, 01:46 PM
..bad web site..



ouch . that hurts.


As far as permissions. Its not a simple thing. You need to get original artists permission and also studio permission to use images. This can take a long time as studios dont always get back to you for a long period of time.

Chuck
10-12-2006, 01:59 PM
Nothing personal Chuck, But I like others are loosing faith in Lightwave. Wasnít v. 9 supposed to be the most stable/bug free version of Lightwave to date? Thus far V.9 is bug ridden unstable piece of @@@. Modeler is no longer even functional. The open GL performance is so poor it makes the application almost useless and it is far from stable.

I updated to v.9 like many others, to give it one last chance and thus far I am not satisfied... I donít want to sound harsh but thus far Lightwave 9 appears to have been rushed and is far from stable. I would like nothing more then to see Lightwave succeed but as a small business owner I canít wait around forever for Newtek to right the ship. I for one will not pre order v.10( like I have since v 5) unless I see some vast improvements in the 9x cycle. :thumbsdow

Please understand that this is not to question your personal experience, but just to give the perspective of the userbase overall: your experience is different from the typical user as by far the majority of users report that v9 is indeed the most stable version ever and it is being used successfully in a wide range of production environments. This does not mean by any means that we don't acknowledge that some users are in fact having difficulties and that there are issues in v9 that would in fact affect all users. We do acknowledge that, and for those users having extreme difficulties we ask that you work with our technical support services to try to determine the causes of such issues. If LightWave is not performing in particular hardware configurations we'd like to know about that and address it if possible, including working with manufacturers where needed; where there are software conflicts we'd also like to know that, and again, if we can resolve it from our side or work with the other manufacturer to resolve it, we will do so.

kyle_r
10-12-2006, 02:13 PM
I'm happy to see Chuck posting a small statement here.
I had to admit that i was secretly hoping something like this when i was writing my firt post.

I'm also very happy to hear that LW is selling well with upgrade and new users and that LW is in a good health despite the critics. It is good for Newtek, it is good for LW and i'm sure it is good for us.

We all have a particulary connection with LW so it is why we are so in concern for his future. It is also interesting to hear from someone in the inside how he see the 3d world bizness, the marketing and the competitor.

Thank for the post Chuck. I hope there will be more news from you and the team about the evolution of the devellopement .

I which you good work for you and the team for the 9.x cycle and the next LW.


ouch . that hurts.


As far as permissions. Its not a simple thing. You need to get original artists permission and also studio permission to use images. This can take a long time as studios dont always get back to you for a long period of time.

Yes i was a little hard for that point and i understand that it is not so easy to have all the permission to use images from independant or studio artists. I think that it is both reassuring and exciting to see great works made with the same tool that you use.

Phil
10-12-2006, 02:15 PM
Well then, please check the edit, Colin; I've clarified that I meant 9.x releases, my apologies that I omitted that in my first run. And please remember and refer back to the messages we've issued from Jay. We've already made it clear that a great deal of advancement in capability is going to happen in the 9.x series. Yes, we're doing bedrock work, but we've already announced a lot of major feature enhancements to come, including CA improvements, etc.

The issue is that it is all fairly vague. That's possibly unavoidable, but for folks wanting faster bone deformation in Layout, the phrase 'CA improvements' is not particularly enlightening, as I'm sure you can understand. It's not necessarily a case of wanting to know everything, but some more specific information about some things, including timing. Knowing that 9.4 will be the CA update, for example, would go a long way to giving your customers an opportunity to plan around 9.x.



The internet remembers everything and the internet has no memory at all. Things are read or viewed and shortly forgotten, and questions are asked to which the answers have been long given.

An FAQ would fix this.

Forgetfulness also seems to afflict NewTek, though. Relativity content for LW 9 users was promised, and hasn't surfaced, for example. It already exists - I even have the ZIP file here because Prem created it all back with 1.0! I cannot upload it to anywhere else because NewTek haven't clarified the copyright situation, although I asked a while ago now about this being an alternative if the logistics at NT HQ were being awkward. I keep nudging that thread in the hope that the feat of uploading a ZIP file to the FTP site might actually be accomplished, but so far....no luck. *shrug*

moc
10-12-2006, 02:18 PM
Yes, we're doing bedrock work, but we've already announced a lot of major feature enhancements to come, including CA improvements, etc. .........


Surely,NT spent mainly time at bedrock works....
Because.those new features at v9....are not enough yet(compare to what we lack of..).....
all new camera tools except prep cam..most of them (cctv...timwarp....sketch...visor...) were finished by TUFF before....
Then Relativity 2 were done by others too..


There're so many other issuses,we need Urgently...
Totally new CA tools...(sepcially our bone...pls seperate the bone,don't let them follow the object).Will NT just enchancement or improvement...
or just add "vertex paint" button into Layout become a new workflow of the further release.?I worried

Mesh realtime Displacement speed increase....(really the bedrock of the new CA tools)....

Although our layout ploygon capacity was improved..
our modeler need power on to edit a huge polygons.....
other competiters were selling a over ten thousands or million ploygons capacity..
according to v9,our modeler far from the way....(compare to sixx,hexxxx..).
And pls don't just pay attention to the openGL shader preview...
mostly,we prefered to close the opengl shader preview function...to save ram...

These three are really backbone for our tools....
Now, LW still reborning.... just at the bedrock building stage....
Did we need worry about what will coming?Obviously yes.......

Kurtis
10-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Forgetfulness also seems to afflict NewTek, though. Relativity content for LW 9 users was promised, and hasn't surfaced, for example. It already exists - I even have the ZIP file here because Prem created it all back with 1.0! I cannot upload it to anywhere else because NewTek haven't clarified the copyright situation, although I asked a while ago now about this being an alternative if the logistics at NT HQ were being awkward. I keep nudging that thread in the hope that the feat of uploading a ZIP file to the FTP site might actually be accomplished, but so far....no luck. *shrug*

Ok. Let's see how specific I can be on this one. Documentation for Relativity has been gone over by our LightWave documentation people. All the Relativity content we have has been gathered and gone through for some final in-house functionality testing with the latest version of the software (some things were removed that need to be redone and reissued later). Both of these should be posted to the Downloads page in the Registration site by Tuesday at the latest.

Phil
10-12-2006, 02:39 PM
Woohoo! Thanks, Kurtis :)

vashts
10-12-2006, 03:07 PM
ouch . that hurts.
I'm really sorry, I understand that (I'm a web-programmer too..), but it's the truth: newtek website (expecially the lightwave part) is far from looking professional, it has a very amateur look. :tsktsk:


As far as permissions. Its not a simple thing. You need to get original artists permission and also studio permission to use images. This can take a long time as studios dont always get back to you for a long period of time.
I don't understand why newtek is the only one who hasn't permissions for making their demoreels.. the new cinema4d has a new demoreel with lots of copyrighted sequences, houndini has a demoreel with spots and parts of movies, even eon software has ilm images of pirates of the caribbean, not to mention maya or xsi reels that have dozen of films/games/spots sequences.. all this stuff avaible on their own websites..

but for newtek.. :stop: no permissions.

vashts

colkai
10-12-2006, 03:12 PM
Well then, please check the edit, Colin; I've clarified that I meant 9.x releases, my apologies that I omitted that in my first run.


Glad of that Chuck, I did hope, but the nature of the beast is one can never be sure. What I want and hope for as a user is sometimes at a juxtaposition as what I know coding to be like as a long time developer myself.

In fact, I think, sometimes, knowing how code can turn around and destroy your hopes of what you intend to deliver is a bit of a curse.


If you couldn't keep some perspective on the endless loop and the way known answers submerge into forgetfulness in the stream of shared consciousness, one could give way to despair.

I guess I've become a bit guilty of that despair myself lately. :twak:
I apologise if I've added to yours in any way. :cry:

colkai
10-12-2006, 03:15 PM
Ok. Let's see how specific I can be on this one.
.....
Both of these should be posted to the Downloads page in the Registration site by Tuesday at the latest.

That's pretty gorramn specific Kurtis. :)

Kurtis
10-12-2006, 03:25 PM
I'm really sorry, I understand that (I'm a web-programmer too..), but it's the truth: newtek website (expecially the lightwave part) is far from looking professional, it has a very amateur look. :tsktsk:


I don't understand why newtek is the only one who hasn't permissions for making their demoreels.. the new cinema4d has a new demoreel with lots of copyrighted sequences, houndini has a demoreel with spots and parts of movies, even eon software has ilm images of pirates of the caribbean, not to mention maya or xsi reels that have dozen of films/games/spots sequences.. all this stuff avaible on their own websites..

but for newtek.. :stop: no permissions.

vashts

As to the first part of your post, this has been discussed in many other posts. I've seen the LightWave site go through so many designs I can't count since I was introduced to the product 10 years ago, and no matter how it looks, there are always some that like it and some that don't. If we go too far one way, we hear "it's not professional enough". If we go too far the other way, we hear "you're just trying to appeal to the suits." It's a tough road to walk, but we've gotten some of our best public response from this new design.

As to the second part, it may seem that way, but it's a lot more difficult than you think, especially on productions where you are dealing with the studio that owns the distribution, the studio that owns the production, the primary VFX house and then the sub-contractor VFX house. Many times there are also issues of perceived reputation and contractual agreements that further muddy the waters. You might be happy to learn that we now have someone who's primary roll is to deal with this issue.

Panikos
10-12-2006, 03:30 PM
I try not to comment but ...

Its seems that for Newtek time hasnt passed the recent years.
Cause instead of comparing with the competition, we compare LW with its predecessor, i.e bug fixing.

In what area LW is better than any other app ?
When Newtek is planning to replace the obsolete n useless GI engine (Radiosity / Caustics), I've been waiting for this some years now.
LW9 is advertised as fast, fast compared to what ?

Yes, generalizations like "CA improvements" have no meaning.

I'd prefer to pay more $$$ and get a value for my money, instead of paying cheap and get cheap improvement updates.

SplineGod
10-12-2006, 03:38 PM
Seems Lightwave has always been perceived as the underdog in the 3D big league. Back in the LW 5 days, doomsayers were always banging on about "Max Max blah". Remember those tedious LW vs Max threads? Then it was "Maya Maya blah". Now the XSI bores are trolling the Newtek forums. No problem constructively comparing strengths and weaknesses of programs of course, but some people are doing nothing but bash Lightwave, period. Time they got a life. I've used all these programs and yes they're good, but they have weaknesses too. IMO nothing feels as fast and intuitive as Lightwave. The doommongers know it too, otherwise they wouldn't be obsessively posting here.

Got to say, despite some of the issues raised on the thread I'm pleased with Lightwave's development so far - especially considering its cost relative to rival apps. It's reassuring to hear from the Newtek team and I do sense they are working flat out to raise Lightwave's profile.

LW9 has also been pretty stable for me for the most part. I do get crashes sometimes but no more or less then anything else I use.

I agree about the LW naysayers. I also dont care about *constructive* criticism or postive comparisons. What I get tired of is the same people CONSTANTLY beating a dead horse. We KNOW what the shortcomings of LW are vs brand X. None of these people seem to offer solutions but seem to be here only to justify/force their opinions about software that has ZERO to with LW onto others.

I think most people, including myself come here to offer help or ask for help.
I thought thats what a SUPPORT forum was for....to SUPPORT each other.
I want to offer SOLUTIONS and to find them as well. This constant bashing has more then gotten old. I dont think it does a thing to help Lightwave or Newtek. I simply dont think that chanting the same old tired mantra over and over will fill the developers with renewed strength, intelligence or enthusiasm.

bryphi7
10-12-2006, 03:48 PM
They need to be much more specific and informative about features that we paid for two years ago. As it stands now they are giving us no information about stuff that was supposed to be delivered by last xmas, and has already been paid for!

If you guys(NT) want to be hush hush about features that weren't promised in version 9, that is fine... but as for the rest of the stuff we should be getting very specific information on the progress, and when we can expect delivery!

What part of we already paid for this stuff don't you's understand? Thats fine if you cant deliver a year late, but the least you's can do is keep us well informed!

Tank
10-12-2006, 03:53 PM
With the exception of unlimited render nodes and pricing issues, both of which are true as far as I've seen, I can't recall seeing anything where NewTek has claimed to be better than Maya or any of the others on a specific feature basis. As long as bugs are being being fixed and features are being added, the product is getting better and that's what you're paying for. I don't think anyone should honestly expect something better than other apps that cost three to nine times as much.

tyrot
10-12-2006, 03:58 PM
dear splinegod

actually in a different sense we are supporting eachother. Supporting should not be seen as only Supporting blindly. I know it . i did it. I m not making it anymore.

Faith, Hope, Light at the end of the tunnel...

Ok the name of the software is Lightwave (not LightWAY) but it shouldnt be that much spiritual right. Many long term friends, supporters, fanboys have started to feel like praying in a religious ceremony. Is there a reason for that? I dont know. When things are happening, you cant change it with thoughts.

And i have one problem with one argument. We thought LW9 has the feature listed...And we updated without a blink. But now things are different, No bundle, No HOPE implications, No promises, No Lights No Tunnels can save another LW update. This time things will be pretty heavy.

And i think instead of getting promising words from marketing division, Jay Roth may spend some time here and tell us where we are, where we are going and when we gonna get there...

Best

SplineGod
10-12-2006, 04:23 PM
Again, I dont have a problem with people posting constructive criticism or comparisons in a professional manner but keep it within reason. Pretty much at this point the complaints are like listening to a broken record. Newtek is painfully aware of what they need to do.

Until Newtek fixes Lightwave what we have is what we have. I own other applications but dont feel the need to talk about them here since there are other forums to do that. I simply feel that more time should be spent on helping each other to learn to use LW to its fullest since this is a LW support forum :)

Im not that worried about LW. I can afford to wait for updates since theres a lot of cheap tools out there now. If LW cant do something I need to do there are other solutiions or
alternatives. Ive seen other apps in this same situation only to come back strong. XSI and C4D are two examples.

Pavlov
10-12-2006, 04:30 PM
Sadly this is the result of not a moment, but several years of troubles.
Current devteam has to get this cross upon their shoulders even if it's not their fault, personally i'm sorry for this.
Because nobody likes get the "shame" for something he is not responsable for.
But many LW users developed a promise-resistant attitude, and this diffused mood will disappear only with time and facts.. surely NT understands this.
Then, if we want to talk about 9, yes it's a good release and very stable (despite the horrible locked-hub bug). But we're talking of other things here.

Larry, i agree with many of your statements but let me say you can do both, helping (and i do) and raising criticism.
Optimism has its moments; criticism too, and even hard one can be useful.

Paolo

vashts
10-12-2006, 04:38 PM
As to the first part of your post, this has been discussed in many other posts. I've seen the LightWave site go through so many designs I can't count since I was introduced to the product 10 years ago, and no matter how it looks, there are always some that like it and some that don't. If we go too far one way, we hear "it's not professional enough". If we go too far the other way, we hear "you're just trying to appeal to the suits." It's a tough road to walk, but we've gotten some of our best public response from this new design.
I think it depends on how you and your software want to be seen from the outside: if you want lightwave to be seen as a professional application, the website has to reflect this thought, it's simple.


You might be happy to learn that we now have someone who's primary roll is to deal with this issue.
I'm super-happy to know it :thumbsup: and it will be a very good thing expecially for new users :thumbsup:

vashts

Chuck
10-12-2006, 05:26 PM
They need to be much more specific and informative about features that we paid for two years ago.

No one paid for LightWave v9 as long as two years ago. It became a free update for those who purchased our LightWave [8]/Vue 5 bundle special beginning August 1st of 2005, one year and two months ago, and was also then available for those who wanted to prepurchase bundled with Vue 5, Vue 5 to ship immediately and v9 when it was released.


As it stands now they are giving us no information about stuff that was supposed to be delivered by last xmas, and has already been paid for!

If you guys(NT) want to be hush hush about features that weren't promised in version 9, that is fine... but as for the rest of the stuff we should be getting very specific information on the progress, and when we can expect delivery!

What part of we already paid for this stuff don't you's understand? Thats fine if you cant deliver a year late, but the least you's can do is keep us well informed!

The majority of planned features were delivered in the July release, and way back last February we advised which features would need to follow in a later 9.x update, with a note on the fact that modeling in Layout was going to require more extensive redesign and would therefore likely be later in the cycle. At SIGGRAPH we announced features to expect for the first update. There is no change in any of these plans to announce at this time. When there is or when it is appropriate to make more detailed announcements, we will announce promptly, please rest assured.

Chuck
10-12-2006, 05:49 PM
And i think instead of getting promising words from marketing division, Jay Roth may spend some time here and tell us where we are, where we are going and when we gonna get there...

Best

You didn't get promising words from the marketing division on this thread. You got them from development. Unless you are talking about Kurtis's posts. :)

vashts
10-12-2006, 05:58 PM
The majority of planned features were delivered in the July release
:eek:
in the july release.. no ca enhancements.. no gi enhancements.. no instancing.. no modeling tools in layout.. no new opengl in modeler.. are those all small features? after 9.0 I've always thought the majority would come in the 9.x cycle..

vashts

SplineGod
10-12-2006, 06:09 PM
Larry, i agree with many of your statements but let me say you can do both, helping (and i do) and raising criticism.
Optimism has its moments; criticism too, and even hard one can be useful.

Paolo

I agree. Both can be done. I dont mind as long as its done in a mature, professional manner. Its sad to see several so called professionals bashing the software in other forums and here yet do little to provide anything constructive. Also Newtek has a place to send feature requests and Im sure they give it credence if done in a professional way. I tihink you do a good job of presenting yourself in a professional manner. Unfortunately the same cant be said about several others.

Like I said, I can afford to wait simply because there are free and cheap solutions if LW isnt up to my needs. I simply dont feel that the sands are running out for LW. At some point it will be updated. Ive mentioned this before but software isnt like and endangered species of animal that once it gone its gone forever. Software evolves constantly.

From the standpoint of being critical of LW what hasnt been said? The bashing at this point serves no real purpose since Newtek by now has heard it all. From a day to day practical standpoint it doesnt help me solve problems I have or doesnt help others do the same. :)

Bog
10-12-2006, 06:12 PM
no modeling tools in layout.

Opening myself up to the usual flamebait for being a "fanboy", this part of your post is not factual at all. There is now modelling in Layout. It's not "modeler in layout", but there is modeling in layout.

The other stuff, I don't know - I hope to Goddard it's in the core-rewrite that's in progress. We'll see.

Like I say... not going to try to fit anything else in my primary weapons mount anytime soon...

theo
10-12-2006, 06:15 PM
I'm with Splinegod: I'm not worried a whit about Newtek.

Newtek works much harder than any software company I know to soothe the nerves of rattled youngsters in their forums.

They are a passionate company. They convey a lot of entreprise and dedication. Jay and the entire team are definitely bringing a new level of sensibility and direction to an icon in the 3D industry.

In spite of its drawbacks, which every piece of software on the planet has, when you open Lightwave you are utilizing an iconic piece of software.

Lightwave has a tremendous sense of history behind it that Max, Nodo, Maya and others could only dream of.

Lightwave is a storied piece of code and the story will continue for many, many years to come, in spite of nervous nellys, blustery bobs and comparative chets.

vashts
10-12-2006, 06:26 PM
There is now modelling in Layout. It's not "modeler in layout", but there is modeling in layout.
you can't even add a single point to yout object, do a bandsaw, add a morph map, or something similar. adding a primitive, in the current state, is the same as loading an object. it's not modeling.

vashts

Kurtis
10-12-2006, 06:34 PM
:eek:
in the july release.. no ca enhancements.. no gi enhancements.. no instancing.. no modeling tools in layout.. no new opengl in modeler.. are those all small features? after 9.0 I've always thought the majority would come in the 9.x cycle..

vashts

What Chuck was saying was "the majority of planned features for v9.0 were released in July."

Kurtis
10-12-2006, 06:35 PM
Ok. Let's see how specific I can be on this one. Documentation for Relativity has been gone over by our LightWave documentation people. All the Relativity content we have has been gathered and gone through for some final in-house functionality testing with the latest version of the software (some things were removed that need to be redone and reissued later). Both of these should be posted to the Downloads page in the Registration site by Tuesday at the latest.

Well, the MIS department was able to get to the upload much faster than I had expected. The files are available for download now.

SplineGod
10-12-2006, 06:40 PM
you can't even add a single point to yout object, do a bandsaw, add a morph map, or something similar. adding a primitive, in the current state, is the same as loading an object. it's not modeling.

vashts

I understand what you mean. I was hoping for point level manipulation in layout (even in a very basic form).

On the other hand you can create/add morph maps in layout. Many modeling tools do work. I use apply morph in layout for example. Even several 3rd party modeling plugins work.

At least this shows that theyve laid the foundation for the modeling core to work in layout. If they can get that working during the 9.x cycle then great :)

Kurtis
10-12-2006, 06:43 PM
I think it depends on how you and your software want to be seen from the outside: if you want lightwave to be seen as a professional application, the website has to reflect this thought, it's simple.


I'm super-happy to know it :thumbsup: and it will be a very good thing expecially for new users :thumbsup:

vashts

We always appreciate constructive criticism, and consider it all seriously.

We view professionals as those that are actually putting hands to keyboards to use our product and products like ours to make a living. We have implemented a new site and packaging design that we believe appeals to what a large number of these people want to see, and the majority of the feedback we've received indicates that this is the case. If we were designing a website to attract programmers or accountants, we'd have implemented a much different site.

t4d
10-12-2006, 06:43 PM
well Lightwave Users have change ALOT =)
2 year ago when Chuck would do his marketing thing
the replies would be alot different.

Marketing reseach is one thing But it sure seems Newtek marketing statement Now come with Question after and hard question at that. ( that's new )

( someone said Newtek is the hardest work developer out there )
that did shock me , how did you come up with that ?
did you see the C4D release or any of the other 3D apps releases lately ??

underhood changes are one thing and that's what newtek say they are working on, But by now we should be able to see real effects of those under the hood changes ?? LW still feel very plugin like, and we have not seen any real changes to the structure of the program. are they holding all the cool stuff back for LW 10 ? like they did for LW 8.5 ? why didn't lw 8.5 get relativity ?

again lw 10 or 11 are the targets to releases those changes I can't see many people being around to use them. by that time we may have C4D 15, XSI 9, Modo 404...

bryphi7
10-12-2006, 06:44 PM
The majority of planned features were delivered in the July release

How about an update on the nodal and fprime. That was one I was really looking forward to...

vashts
10-12-2006, 06:44 PM
What Chuck was saying was "the majority of planned features for v9.0 were released in July."
thankyou for clarification :yoda: hard the life of foreign users is.. :D

vashts

SplineGod
10-12-2006, 06:51 PM
We view professionals as those that are actually putting hands to keyboards to use our product and products like ours to make a living.

I would extend that definition to also include how one behaves... :)

Sensei
10-12-2006, 06:58 PM
Nowaday,softwares may need become sharpen at least one pro-field....
A.industrial design field...need combine native nurbs.....We haven't

LightWave can work with NURBS in EasySpline (http://www.easyspline.com)spline modeling system if you use it together with our Bezier & B-Spline (http://www.trueart.eu/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/Bezier)..

Little example showing Catmull-Rom curve extruding tool and support for long curves crossing many other curves (to get smoother surface), with real-time feed-back preview..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/EasySpline/Graphics/Movies/EasySpline_6.mov

t4d
10-12-2006, 07:04 PM
LightWave can work with NURBS in EasySpline (http://www.easyspline.com)spline modeling system if you use it together with our Bezier & B-Spline (http://www.trueart.eu/?URIType=Directory&URI=Products/Plug-Ins/Bezier)..

Little example showing Catmull-Rom curve extruding tool and support for long curves crossing many other curves (to get smoother surface), with real-time feed-back preview..
http://www2.trueart.pl/Products/Plug-Ins/EasySpline/Graphics/Movies/EasySpline_6.mov

can you import Iges Date to Easyspline ?
I really am asking I have autodesk inventor files render work on and want all the options i can. at teh moment all i can do it import the nurbs to XSI convert to polygons ( big jump up ) then move to LW to use Fprime.

vashts
10-12-2006, 07:10 PM
We always appreciate constructive criticism, and consider it all seriously.

We view professionals as those that are actually putting hands to keyboards to use our product and products like ours to make a living. We have implemented a new site and packaging design that we believe appeals to what a large number of these people want to see, and the majority of the feedback we've received indicates that this is the case. If we were designing a website to attract programmers or accountants, we'd have implemented a much different site.
I'm not questioning about packaging design (well, not now..) or the new logo or the new background.. I can say I like them. but IMHO they can be used in a website much better than now..
well, doesn't matter, let's not spend more than 2 posts on a website..

vashts

Sensei
10-12-2006, 07:20 PM
No.. EasySpline is modeling system not I/O loaders/savers.. I had just brief look at IGES files and they don't look too friendly for programmer that wants to write loader/saver for them.. If I were you I get EasySpline and wrote XSI exporter using their SDK to write directly LWO file saving Catmull-Rom & our Bezier & B-Spline curves..

t4d
10-12-2006, 08:21 PM
I ended up getting polytrans so i can now import Inventor files directly and convert using Nurbs or polygons.

Just wanted to know what options, Easyspline could give me. Thanks =)

GraphXs
10-12-2006, 09:05 PM
One thing I hope Newtek does throughout the cycle is the consolidation of modeling tools. Can ya please start this with the 9.1 release?:thumbsup:

Question for Newtek: How long will the 9.x cycle last, 1year, 2 years? Also how many updates does Newtek plan to do in this cycle?

This could/should be the best cycle ever for Lightwave!

Ya got everyone at the edge of their seatsÖmore please!

digital verve
10-13-2006, 03:32 AM
I hope after they have overcome the initial programming challenges to get the first 9.x release out, that future updates will be much more rapid thereafter. Rewrites take time to get right. XSI was poor for the price until version 4 and now it is a great app gaining a deservedly good rep. I think Newtek can do the same with LW 9.x onwards. I kind of see version 9 as a work in progress version 1. Modeller performance really fustrates me on my current project, but I'll stick to LW for this project as still very slowly learning another app. By then maybe I will stick to using LW for those projects if the issues have been sorted out. If not, I won't. Newtek should be careful in future in annoucing promises. Fast opengl in modeller was afterall promised for version 8.5. It didn't come on ver 9.0 so it had better come in the next update to keep this user upgrading.

animotion
10-13-2006, 06:57 AM
We all know that LW has many shortcomings but I think that the doom and gloom is manufactured in our own minds.

If NT wasn't so free with its forums we would be paying more attention to getting projects done one way or another.

I have never lost a job, been late on a project or gotten payed less because of LW.

Animotion.

UnCommonGrafx
10-13-2006, 11:19 AM
These two threads have me all excited about what LW is all about: creative problem solving.

Animotion, you hit The Head on The Nail with the statement that it's all in our minds.

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14504&page=2
http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14147&page=1

Sorry, should be three:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51964

Cageman
10-13-2006, 01:06 PM
Yes I do... The only thing in this release that wasn't a 3rd party plug was CC subd's and look how that turned out...scarry!!!



so true...

I think you forgot APS and Nodal. Theses were ideas by plugin-developers.... but when the programmers got hired by NewTek, and working there now, those tools are as integrated as anything else in LW... :)

bryphi7
10-13-2006, 01:12 PM
I think you need to think again... nodal was a third party plug, and I believe aps was too...

bryphi7
10-13-2006, 01:13 PM
You cant be changing your posts on me...:D

Cageman
10-13-2006, 03:11 PM
If you guys(NT) want to be hush hush about features that weren't promised in version 9, that is fine... but as for the rest of the stuff we should be getting very specific information on the progress, and when we can expect delivery!

I agree TOTALY to this...

I was very dissapointed with the latest Newsletter which only covered Case-studies and user profiles.

NT: Jay Roth should have his own column in the Newsletter where we, the users, get a hint or indication of what's to come.

This is nothing that other (to my knowledge) 3D software manufacturers are communicating about. See your chance and grasp it... be open about your progress (not to open about new features though) and have that as one of the minor features of LW...

NT have to make more comitement to the userbase... and by all matters... be honest. Jay have been honest enough so far, and I really hope NT will continue this communication, but with more intesity!

Cageman
10-13-2006, 03:14 PM
You cant be changing your posts on me...:D

Hehe.. ;)

But seriosly... are you considering APS and Nodal third party when the programmers are working at NT in their office?

I can strech myself to say that they were ideas coming from a third party source, but since then they have been brought inside NT and are now a feature of LW instead of a plugin.

Wonderpup
10-13-2006, 03:54 PM
It is a fact that the lightwave 9 I bought into when I pre ordered the upgrade seems still very far away to me, in terms of the feature set described at that time.

To say that we have modeling in layout at present, for example, is simply not true, at least as I understood the concept at the time ( ie point level manipulation and animation) and the implimentation of CC subdivision is again not really a finished version.

So I think it is a fair comment to say that the impression given at that time was a bit optimistic, at least in terms of implied timeframe.

I really do think that more information on the progress of these 'missing' or incomplete features would do a lot to make threads like this less likely to occur. It's not so much that I mind waiting, but waiting in the dark is frustrating.

Would a weekly or even monthly development update really be a disaster? I assume this sort of thing is not done because it is assumed that such a policy would cause more probelms than it would solve- but is this assumption correct?

I'm not suggesting any commercialy sensitive information be revealed- and, if we are honest, I doubt any of NTs competitors are looking over their shoulders to see what lightwave is up to ( Unless you count Maxon trawling for their next snappy banner headline.)

Speaking personaly I would be much happier having some clue as to where things stood, even if the news was bad, than enduring long silences and the inevitable specualtions they give rise to.

bryphi7
10-13-2006, 04:56 PM
Hehe.. ;)

But seriosly... are you considering APS and Nodal third party when the programmers are working at NT in their office?

I can strech myself to say that they were ideas coming from a third party source, but since then they have been brought inside NT and are now a feature of LW instead of a plugin.

It doesn't matter to me either way...I love nodal, plug or not. I think there could be a few improvements, but I am pleased with it. APS on the other hand I don't really think is that useful, but from what Chuck said... it is going to be improved.
If NT comes through for us... all this bad mouthing will be forgotten, and everyone will be happy. That is what I want to happen anyway...

colkai
10-14-2006, 07:24 AM
It is a fact that the lightwave 9 I bought into when I pre ordered the upgrade seems still very far away to me, in terms of the feature set described at that time.

This is true I think for how many folks are feeling and accounts for a lot of the "fidgeting" from users.


If NT comes through for us... all this bad mouthing will be forgotten, and everyone will be happy. That is what I want to happen anyway...

..This is also very true, it's difficult, as a developer I know the danger of commiting to promises of what I can provide in the next release. However, I think also people are wanting some "re-assurance" about what features are going to be in and some details on them. There is an air of concern and panic, be it justified or not, so maybe a hard 'yea' on certain specfic power features would help.

Then again, I'm also aware that history has really shown that not to be the case, with people complaining their own personal "must have" is not on the list or not as high a priority as they want.

Catch 22.

Yog
10-14-2006, 08:06 AM
If NT comes through for us... all this bad mouthing will be forgotten, and everyone will be happy. That is what I want to happen anyway...Yes and No.
In the short term maybe. People get so desperate that any information is greeted with excitement and gratefullness. However in the longer term I don't think that it does Newtek any favours.

Take the release of LW-8. The lateness in the product release, the extremely poor communication and the change in comunication policy to be the opposite to that already promissed had me spitting feathers. However when the same things happened in the run up to LW-9 I was a lot more philisophical about it. Had I been taking meditation clases ? had I joined the Hari Krisna's ? No, it was just that past experience had taught me what to expect from Newtek's statements.

At the end of the day I would prefer to have no communication with a company (except customer service issues, that other companies seem to handle rather well) until a product is ready to ship, rather than to learn to mis-trust a companies promisses, as they always fail to deliver on time or on substance.

Pavlov
10-14-2006, 08:24 AM
Communication is not made of promises only, or vague programs for next 3 years of development.
Look at Lux forums, every week they have something to say/show; ok it's a new tool so many things happens, since many things are still not there... maybe the same could not fit for NT, but a monthly update with some pics/movies done by testers would be appreciated.
In a month something new happens, i cannot think all coding in LW9 is about deep and unknown core's caverns. A month, in 3D arena, is a lot of time. Beside achitecture restructuring/rebuilding, in a month some tools should work better than before, and/or some new should be implemented, and/or some bugs can be squashed. Imho there should be enough material for a rather basic communication, which should take not more than one hour to compile and put online.

Paolo

vashts
10-14-2006, 08:49 AM
At the end of the day I would prefer to have no communication with a company (except customer service issues, that other companies seem to handle rather well) until a product is ready to ship
I think it can be a choice only if you already have a complete software, so all comes later is "something more".. this is not the case of lightwave: all promised features like new GI, new CA, instances, are something we really need, they're the base upon receiving all more bonus cool features they can give us.

vashts

lw3d23
10-14-2006, 08:50 AM
Newtek should move quicky, the old LW developers just annouceed that they are going to show something in Jan ,many uers guess that probably will be their 3D app with animation module. Many ppl said that they will leave LW once that animation module is released, it is not a good news for NT.

RobertRhino
10-14-2006, 10:29 AM
Honestly, I think we have a case here of the Craftsmen blaming the tools. There are many successful Lightwavers out there. I have used Maya, XSI, Cinema 4D, Modo, and Max when I need to get the job done I always go back to LightWave.

The LightWave renderer is capable of producing gorgeous images.:lwicon:

I just don't see Newtek as being all that bad in fact I think they are great.

These are just my humble opinions.

Robert Rhino :lightwave

-EsHrA-
10-14-2006, 10:35 AM
i dont get it either, ive seen what a one man band can do, ie. pim, my chanlum plug (hi denis :) ), nitisara's plugs, pictrix, nodal (antti)
oh.. worley ofcoz. (without it i would have left..).. the list goes on.

and here we are with lw reborn... (ahem..)

so either nt should work harder with the correct attitude and/or hire more talented coders.

i mean i dont wanna leave becoz of questionable handling in regards of lw dev of the ... ehm.. company thats building it.

i wanna see lw moving foward not sideways.

ooh, one should check out http://www.renoise.com/board/ and see how they handle dev on new versions.
its a tracker which i love and the community is awesome (somewhat like lw's).
its an example of management and communication with users that should be followed more.

i dont want to sound rude in anyway i just have experienced let down after let down, so one can imagine my concerns..

anyway, im releasing new chanlum plug soon so new toy to play with.. :)


mlon


ps. a monthly update with pics from dev of the new tools/bug fixing/etc. sounds good to me!

FredyN
10-14-2006, 05:32 PM
there are some choises for NT IMHO:

1) develop harder :), ask users/studios for ideas

2) release a LW Studio 9.1 version - with some certified 3rd party plugins (dynamite, maestro, etc, for a good bundle price) and make them internal in v9.2

3) buy the developers of 3rd party plugins and continue the developing

4) sell to other firm (ADOBE, Bauhaus, Lux) and concentrate to develop video cutting soft

SplineGod
10-14-2006, 05:45 PM
Newteks pretty much doing #1 and #3 and has been.
For #5 Newtek is also opening up and improving the SDK. We see a lot of 3rd party Nodes and other plugins showing up.

I would also add #6 - Be patient or use what you need to fill in the gaps :)

UnCommonGrafx
10-14-2006, 05:46 PM
1. Yes. I'm sure that's underway.
2. Nope. Give us the 9.2 or 9.3 that's planned and continue work toward 9.5. Those plugs aren't the end all be all for those sections and the guys working internally on dynamite-like things are much more capable than we've seen.
A Maestro-like interface ought to be part of the core, yes. I'd rather they bought messiah and put that with Maestro.
3. Nah, we'd not see timely updates as the devvers provide. A good example is FiberFactory where users are extolling weekly, if not daily, updates to issues they report.
4. What a silly notion. What they should do is put it all together and kick the dung out of the likes of Quantel, Adobe, etc. with an all encompassing vid, 3d, painting and compositing app. They already have the IP it's just not consolidated.

The world isn't ran by shoulds though.

Speedmonk42
10-14-2006, 07:02 PM
Maybe we will see a LW open source after all.

That would destroy everything.

Lots of ways to make money off of it. Especially if it becomes the number one app by miles.

pixeltek
10-14-2006, 08:01 PM
Having spent time reading through the whole exchange here, being not much of a talent of note, but having used LW since release 6, I'd like to say this. Long ago I wrote a letter, when Max came out with their character creation studio, and said then that selling & growing a (3D software) business is getting new users on board. Real or imagined, Discreet knew how to do that, and it is really all in the potential user's perception. You must sell dreams with hopes of fulfilling them to the kids who are in school today to become the future cadre of users, as many of us older guys are fading away. I do not see this in LW ads, in fact, I don't see many LW ads at all. When I pick up 3D magazines, LW is rarely mentioned or advertised - I may be looking in all the wrong places. With elections coming up, you know how valuable and important name-recognition is. When I say Newtek, people say Video Toaster. Sure, NT will smile proudly, but that's not where I stand. I teach HS science and push the LW name as much as I can to kids all over. The problems are, when I mention B5, Starship Troopers (which got me hooked on LW), or even Star Trek, I get blank stares or knowing stares, which tell me that they consider the 'old fart' - me - a bit out of touch. Stargate does get some recognition, and I use it, games such as Doom, Quake, and Serious Sam, and of course BSG, to drive the LW name home. I do have a website, and kids go there to see what I do and show. The future user needs to be a focus of the occasional advertising campaign, even though at this early stage many or most of them will download Blender, which I encourage. Still, their future is LW's future and that of the company, hopefully long after Tim etc, have ridden off into the sunshine.

I think much of what was said here, by professionals and amateurs alike, is not totaly without merit, Chuck's ever upbeat and optimistic replies notwithstanding (Thanks Chuck). I do use F-Prime, and wish it could do glow, but that's a Worley issue. LW 9 had me return briefly to LW 8.5, for frequent crashes. Maybe it was something I did or was trying to do? Now I only see it hang up on startup after I used Adobe Acrobat Reader. So, minor stuff. I know that someone like Larry (Splinegod) can make LW sing and dance, but there are reviews and ratings out there that come from people who may have no axe to grind, nor make a living off LW, whose words can hurt or help LW. I just received the latest issue (# 84) of 3D World. Here in their 3D modeling package overview, LW 9, Maya 8, and Strata 3D received a rating of '7'. TrueSpace 7 received a '6' - the lowest rating here. Max 8 and XSI 5, received a '9'. Ouch! Well, great for them. No doubt, the Maya fans will be equally unhappy. However, as well advertised and popular Maya is, that may indicate that independent outsiders fairly see something amiss in LW 9, Maya 8, and definitely TS 7.

That just FYI. Thanks all of you, for the interesting and often thoughtful topic treatment, bashing and flaming aside. I, for one, making no living off LW, even though I'd love to teach it at school, am now looking forward with great expectations, :) Chuck!, to the upcoming releases and to my imminent Core-2 upgrade.

Karl

Panikos
10-15-2006, 05:55 AM
I would like :

- Motion Nodal System
- Expressions sequence System
- provide Open wide room for 3rd party renderers including LWSN support

All these in LW10.0 without LW9.*
Upgrade price : $600
Release by Summer 2007

Later :
Replace GI engine
Make a decent LWSN system instead of this museum one

:D

Bog
10-16-2006, 04:34 AM
being not much of a talent of note

8~

Haven't you looked at your own work or something? The detailing on your SS1/WhiteKnight combo is lovely.

zapper1998
10-16-2006, 04:50 AM
Why Can't Newtek Make Lightwave, do the same as 3D Max, Maya, XSI, etc, etc..

If It could do the same as those apps, wow, Would Lightwave Be out Front big time......

My 2 cents worth......
Michael

Phil
10-16-2006, 05:12 AM
LW 9, Maya 8, and Strata 3D received a rating of '7'. TrueSpace 7 received a '6' - the lowest rating here. Max 8 and XSI 5, received a '9'.

Alias/Autodesk has not been producing Maya updates that have had much significance recently. The innovation seems to have deserted them, with no massive advances like Paint Effects / Artisan / Fluids forthcoming. As such, the upgrade to version 8 seems like fairly small beer. 7 was not hugely compelling either. The reviews tend to note this and so this probably impacts the score.

Truespace was a package that I tried once and hated instantly. I didn't even know it was still around, frankly.

XSI meanwhile is piling on the innovations. It also seems pretty sensible in the way it has been hooked together, with everything working well and being sensibly located (no huge scrolling drop down lists, chopped-off text on labels or ever-so-slightly-different tools).

LW, meanwhile, continues with the same recovery phase that has been ongoing since the old dev team quit after 7.5c. For the rest of the world outside NewTek, the circumstances don't matter. The product does. LW 9, whilst a major upgrade compared to almost any previous version of LW, does not have the enviable stability record of Maya (which itself is suffering in recent versions) or the pace of innovation (and comprehensive workflow) of XSI.

Given the price points of XSI and LW, the rating seems pretty fair, to be honest. There is a lot that has not been touched in LW9, which hasn't been touched in many years - all of which NewTek are aware of and are planning to get to eventually. By the time that 9.x runs its course, one would hope to find LW back in the 8 or 9 grade. Time will tell.

Feature-wise, LW is not really lacking in overall number of bullet points. It's lacking in implementation.

tyrot
10-16-2006, 05:33 AM
dear wavers

actually i made a search on arch viz threads here in NT forums. Since 2003 there is a big request on GI - Radiosity rendering. Since 2003!

And reading those threads, i understand the Cycle. Lots of requests, a Word from Chuck or someone else, giving temporary relaxation, then all forgotten..

I think things must be changed in terms of customer relationship. We are devoted users. And i really think a detailed newsletter or even a post from Jay Roth's signed would be really ok.

NT doesnt need to hide anything everyone knows what happened, how hard is to develope or catch the competition, etc etc..

weekly screenshots , developement newsletters would be really nice.

BEST

Phil
10-16-2006, 06:37 AM
Later :
Replace GI engine


I cannot agree with this. GI needs urgent attention. At the moment, it would probably be more practical to rip the old one out and pretend it never existed. Almost no-one wants to use it because it is just so slow.

Fixing this would also make LWCad more relevant because you could actually render the thing before dying of old age. FPrime should not be an excuse to avoid fixing this.



Make a decent LWSN system instead of this museum one


This, I can agree with. It should be autoconfiguring.

bobakabob
10-16-2006, 10:37 AM
Honestly, I think we have a case here of the Craftsmen blaming the tools. There are many successful Lightwavers out there. I have used Maya, XSI, Cinema 4D, Modo, and Max when I need to get the job done I always go back to LightWave.

The LightWave renderer is capable of producing gorgeous images.:lwicon:

I just don't see Newtek as being all that bad in fact I think they are great.

These are just my humble opinions.

Robert Rhino :lightwave

Lightwave has always been a sound professional app for the price relative to rival programs. In the 5.5 days it was also innovative - e.g. MetaNurbs subdivisions were way ahead of anything Max's clunky awful modeller could do at the time.

LW has undoubtedly gone through a difficult time of late and still has some catching up to do. IMO Newtek are getting there. LW 9 feels the most solid and substantial release so far. There are glitches 'n' gripes of course, but nothing catastrophic. Remember 6 and its cornucopia of bugs? Now compare it with 9 just to see how sophisticated and deep this program has become. Sure the animation tools need developing but users have been given an assurance this will happen soon.

Hopefully there will also be some genuine innovations round the corner - it's the one guaranteed way of raising Lightwave's profile just as LW 5.5 had a great reputation amongst professionals. There are so many amazing plugin developers out (rendering / UV tools / CAD / hair / modelling) there I'm surprised Newtek haven't forged more solid collaborations. Guess they are contractually problematic .

The market is pretty cutthroat at the moment. Newtek are surely aware of this and the new team do seem determined to succeed.

Panikos
10-16-2006, 11:19 AM
Probably its a shorter path to enbrace FPrime or Kray (very succesful alternatives) than to replace LW GI.
I doubt that FPrime or Kray speed cant be beaten.

tektonik
10-16-2006, 02:01 PM
to add to the GI speed and lwsn rants...

we need a one-click solution to distribute a single frame across a network like vray and mental ray

by doing this you go faster and produce much higher rez rendering since everything is sliced into networkable buckets


ps- waiting to start testing kray (version 1.7 and up... not ready now...)
ps2- and loving fprime
ps3- and loving hd instance

Bog
10-16-2006, 03:29 PM
Mmm. To be honest, I'd really rather see LW's GI be as zippy as FPrime. Gettin' a mite tired o'paying my Worley tax, especially as the information flow from that front has... erm... well, it's not been good this last year, let's be honest.

tyrot
10-16-2006, 03:46 PM
dear bog

you are right mate. You can find workaround for many things..But Rendering is a pretty unique thing. It must be done in Layout, without help of any plugins. I know this is not MAX way, but ****, when i first saw MAX and LW side by side ten years ago, i simply hated MAX's rendering. LW's rendering was the core for me.

I hope Jay Roth has some words about the subject. He can simply say, we will have GI soon or after 10th version or something else. So many people including me, who makes money with F9, may need to support KRAY.

I mean is it so hard to reveal some development plans, schedule to a devoted community. Honestly if they say GI will be coming in 2 years, i will go and buy KRAY tomorrow. We cant hold the clients with current rendering system for years.. Since 2003, 4 long years has passed already..

Bog...they cant resist your sui generis CHARM. Convince them for dates...

BEST

Bog
10-16-2006, 03:56 PM
*chuckles* I have no idea matey. I'd love one - heck, I'm pretty sure NewTek'd be more than happy to be able to offer FPrime's speed and refinable-frame rendering natively. Almost as happy as I'd be ;) As it stands, I'm so used to the Bigger Hammer Approach to sequence rendering these days (he sez, with a total of 7 CPU cores humming away just in his cramped little workroom) that the place I really feel it is comparing FPrime to Viper. It's the setup that's really the bottleneck in my life.

RedBull
10-16-2006, 08:11 PM
Probably its a shorter path to enbrace FPrime or Kray (very succesful alternatives) than to replace LW GI.
I doubt that FPrime or Kray speed cant be beaten.

I tend to agree, even if NT implement an updated GI engine, instant comparisons would likely show it to be slower than alternatives already around..

A Multithreaded Kray integrated into LW's new BSP perspective camera.
would be a nice plugin buyup for LW 10 i think.

As for commenting on the LW10 cycle, give-em a break guys still a lot to do for LW9, and they've announced some of those possible inclusions for .x cycle.
But announcing 10's features publically could be a little premature methinks..

Totally agree on the bottleneck problem, I feel like when using Layouts F9 Render these days, LW is not working for me..... FPrime is always working for me. I can have 5 interactive Fprime windows, all rendering from various cameras at the same time, and work on surfaces and lighting while i see the instant GI.... Kray is fast, but Fprime is just hard to beat because it's so good at being productive.

tektonik
10-16-2006, 09:09 PM
"But announcing 10's features publically could be a little premature methinks."

oh man even talking about lw10 depresses me (deeply!) since they have not much to show for lw9!!!

SP00
10-16-2006, 11:03 PM
I think we are just too much in the dark right now, there are very little news about LW lately. We haven't really heard any progress report for a long time now. I think everyone frustration from this thread is due to the fact that we just haven't heard anything on the development side. In the next newsletter, I think it is important for Jay to gets on and tell us what is happening with LW9.x. Otherwise, everyone will naturally assume the worst. Silence is telling everyone things are not good.

Stooch
10-17-2006, 04:24 PM
well everyone has pretty much beaten anything i could say into the ground :)

All i have to say is, im hoping for the best ;)

tyrot
10-17-2006, 05:39 PM
dear stooch

actually i tried C4D demo this week. of course there are many many cool features but when you pressed the render button still Lightwave is King at least for me.

Ty has returned to building and he will never go around and beeeeitching around...LW is a one of a kind powerful application and it is Cheap. So if they fix and lead the field again once they were leading, we will be all pleased.

After seeing lots of Hair plugin, (especially Fiber Factory's renders and Truehair's amazing modeler integration) and seeing KRAY's 1.7 renders NO place like HOME.

I think i feel like a fanboy again. I missed that feeling. That C4D test do good for me:)

BEST

moc
10-18-2006, 12:29 AM
...LW is a one of a kind powerful application and it is Cheap. .....



Is it really cheap?...no native hair stlying tools, no native painting tools..no good GI system.....And recently it sells for $795...but when we plus FF4/truehair:~$250.....or kray/Fprime:~$399
Then,it won't be cheap ever.....

Pavlov
10-18-2006, 02:32 AM
You all insist on "hair" issue.
No offence meant, but imho hair are a relatively small thing in comparison with GI, paint and other main LW's issues. Yes every package offers hair, the same way it offers bevel, distant lights and booleans.
All this hype on hair systems make me think more at a fashion of this moment than a real need for production but i can be wrong. Really, a question which i dont know the answer of: how many, here, *need* hair to deliver paid work ?

Paolo

T-Light
10-18-2006, 02:49 AM
Pavlov -

Really, a question which i dont know the answer of: how many, here, *need* hair to deliver paid work ?
Says the chap with a bald guy as an avatar :D Sorry Pavlov couldn't resist:)
I suppose the hair thing has become big of late because of this years developers progress, It seems LW development is taking a turn for the best and attracting the more adventurous plugin developers back to the fore. Hair is a good example as we've only had one plugin for the last few years, now we have two, A third is nearing the modeling completion stage and a fourth is in the works. It's all a very good sign for the future.

[EDIT] Oh Yeah Pavlov, I'd LOVE paint, never heard anyone from Newtek talk about it though. In an ideal world they'd give us base painting (texture / bump / spec etc) in a late 9.x release and give us full blown photoshop layers + zbrush style normal mapping in 10.

Phil
10-18-2006, 04:12 AM
Well, having seen the effects of moaning about the lack of hair support (such that we have all these developers popping up), how about we start a moan for GI or ragdoll physics :)

Sensei
10-18-2006, 04:26 AM
Well, having seen the effects of moaning about the lack of hair support (such that we have all these developers popping up), how about we start a moan for GI or ragdoll physics :)

You have GI in FPrime already.. and it can't be done alone like hairs, skin shader or other things.. It must be inside full working renderer, otherwise it's like Occlusion shaders which are available already.. Dynamic plug-in is programmed by another developer http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24732

Better start moaning about things that you REALLY don't have.. ;)

Panikos
10-18-2006, 04:42 AM
I dont mind paying extra $$$ to have what I want, especially in areas where Newtek either doesnt develop at all or develops cheappy stuff.

Phil
10-18-2006, 05:06 AM
You have GI in FPrime already.. and it can't be done alone like hairs, skin shader or other things.. It must be inside full working renderer, otherwise it's like Occlusion shaders which are available already.. Dynamic plug-in is programmed by another developer http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24732

Better start moaning about things that you REALLY don't have.. ;)

FPrime doesn't support a swathe of the features in LW. Shaders, volumetrics, post-effects, etc. It's not a solution in any real sense. Whether that's NewTek's fault or Worley's, I couldn't care less - it doesn't make FPrime or indeed any external renderer a proper solution unless you love the idea of compositing everything that the external renderer cannot support (including reflections).
Since LW doesn't provide render layer support and also lacks per-channel, per-surface masking (including reflection/refraction of said element of interest), it's all rapidly non-trivial. A future update to ExrTrader remains my hope to get this kind of fine-grained access, but native LW really is not capable of delivering an easy ride here. What you gain in FPrime, you probably lose in compositing. Or at least I would, for the majority of what I do.

For dynamics, the ODE plugin is not complete yet and doesn't provide support for arbitrary object shapes (unless I missed an update). It's got a way to go yet. I'm more in mind of the soft body/rag doll physics demo that was shown on CGTalk quite some time ago. I'd love to be able to have the ability to just push a character down the stairs, for example, and have the simulation work it all out via joints. I've not seen anyone really demonstrate the dynamics system in LW is capable of this. I wonder if Impact 3 would be capable, but it seems to be, like all of DR's plugins, orphaned such that I would hate to be relying on it and have an LW update break it in the near future.

tektonik
10-18-2006, 08:39 AM
i am against even talking about a 10 release...

i am not ready to give them a break on lw9...

the GI is so antiquated for interior shots it is ridiculous
we need 3rd party to supply us and even then it is not super (fprime)

the memory management is crap (even more crap with fprime)

no instancing
we need 3rd party (slow but very usefull HDinstance) that don't work with other 3rd party GI engine (fprime)

no easy network rendering system again we need f*ckin 3rd party to survive
no single button network render for single frames (vray style buckets)

so let's not give them the hope of being able to charge us for LW10 until they put this in LW9 !!!

Ulven
10-18-2006, 08:43 AM
From the faq:
What character animation improvements can we expect in v9 and when?
For now, we can't provide specifics beyond that we will improve the workflow of rigging and character animation including making these fast and responsive within the GUI, with input from character animators experienced with many rigging and animation toolsets.

I really hope this means they'll listen to pooby, t4d, myself and many others who have been calling for a complete overhaul to the system. However I expect it means that they'll make the IK solve a bit quicker and leave it at that. A real shame that we can't get any more specific info than this. A lot of people have left lw over this issue alone so it is important to get it right! Really, really important. I know it will take a long time to fix, but the info about the plans for doing so is vital to us as users because it affects our work. Can't provide specifics? Then who can? What do you want to achieve in this area? Take a page out of the book of XSI and Messiah, it is programmable!

Nicolas Jordan
10-18-2006, 09:45 AM
I highly doubt we will see any improvments to character rigging and animation tools in the 9 dev cycle. It will take much carefull planning and time to implement improvments properly. I think we may see some of these things in Lightwave 10. We should continue to see new features and improvments to things related to rendering in the 9 cycle though.

Ulven
10-18-2006, 10:25 AM
Yeah I feel like I know that it won't be adressed properly in 9.x. But I will no doubt keep shouting about it until I see some movement on the matter. They're 'working on it' but that's really rather vague dontcher think?
Fast GI is obviously another thing of deadly importance.

bobakabob
10-18-2006, 11:48 AM
From the faq:
What character animation improvements can we expect in v9 and when?
For now, we can't provide specifics beyond that we will improve the workflow of rigging and character animation including making these fast and responsive within the GUI, with input from character animators experienced with many rigging and animation toolsets.

I really hope this means they'll listen to pooby, t4d, myself and many others who have been calling for a complete overhaul to the system. However I expect it means that they'll make the IK solve a bit quicker and leave it at that. A real shame that we can't get any more specific info than this. A lot of people have left lw over this issue alone so it is important to get it right! Really, really important. I know it will take a long time to fix, but the info about the plans for doing so is vital to us as users because it affects our work. Can't provide specifics? Then who can? What do you want to achieve in this area? Take a page out of the book of XSI and Messiah, it is programmable!

Agreed. Everyone agrees character animation is an area of Lightwave that needs developing (though reading some of t4d's posts gives the misleading impression you can't do professional character animation in Lightwave which is absurd). I just pray they keep it as user friendly and accessible as possible. I'm sure Newtek will have taken on board the view that too many animators found IK Boost unintuitive if not completely baffling :)

colkai
10-18-2006, 12:15 PM
I highly doubt we will see any improvments to character rigging and animation tools in the 9 dev cycle. It will take much carefull planning and time to implement improvments properly.

Well, if you read Chucks posts, he's made it pretty much clear that C.A. is slated to be dealt with within the LW9 cycle so I'd say your likely to be wrong on that count.

Phil
10-18-2006, 12:48 PM
The most obvious, and immediately beneficial, fix is to sort out the bone deformation speed problems. I'm hoping that's not too far down the road in 9.x :D

Sensei
10-18-2006, 01:05 PM
The most obvious, and immediately beneficial, fix is to sort out the bone deformation speed problems. I'm hoping that's not too far down the road in 9.x :D

Speed of bone deformation is partially result of how they were designed - one bone can rule the whole object.. If you have 10 bones (without weight maps) and 100,000 points, there is needed 1 milion sqrt(), 3 milions multiplications, 2 milions adding, 3 milions subtracting.. And this is just for checking whether point is in bone range, without real calculation...

Nicolas Jordan
10-18-2006, 01:32 PM
Well, if you read Chucks posts, he's made it pretty much clear that C.A. is slated to be dealt with within the LW9 cycle so I'd say your likely to be wrong on that count.

I hope I am wrong. ;)

bradimatics
11-02-2006, 01:11 PM
My demo reel is dull as ditchwater, though, 'cause that's the kind of gig I can get as a one-man-band in the Uck. Ergo, I'm stuck with dull-as-ditchwater jobs unless a make a major time investment and do some kind of short off my own bat to show what I'm actually capable of.



Bog -

There is nothing stopping you from animating if that is what you really want. If animation is your thing, you should be able to put together a GREAT looking clip in a couple of weekends. Most major studios are looking for talent first, and worry about training the artist for their particular pipeline second.

You do not need to produce a short; you do not need to have a five minute reel (no on will spend the time to watch it anyway). Do two outstanding shots lasting three to five seconds each. That's enough. That's more than enough. I hired Jennifer Hachigian to work with us on Spider-Man 2 several years ago based on a single piece of animation I found on her website of a character doing a roundhouse kick. It was all I needed to see to know that she understood posing and action.

The secret to standing out in the crowd is is to demonstrate quality over quantity. Five seconds of terrific animation will get you hired faster than a ten minute reel of mediocre work. I do not know you and have never seen your work, so do not take this as a criticism - I'm only talking general principals here that apply to all of us!!

Good luck -

brad

bradimatics
11-02-2006, 01:12 PM
[

Cageman
11-02-2006, 03:10 PM
I try not to comment but ...

Its seems that for Newtek time hasnt passed the recent years.
Cause instead of comparing with the competition, we compare LW with its predecessor, i.e bug fixing.

Have you ever read marketing/reviews of Maya?

Ohhh... I forgot... it's the industry standard these days... but the tool we call "Bridge tool" got included into Maya 8...

If you only knew about the struggles we have with Maya in production... the team I joined two month ago created the WIC teaser trailer in 10 weeks, 6 people with LW8.2, Modo and some Maya (for fluid/smoke effects)... we are now 11 people + 2 interns using Maya (no more LightWave here) and are now at week 9 in our production schedule, pretty close reaching a "final". If it weren't for two of the team-members excellent skills in MEL, we would probably miss the deadline.

Maya is a different beast and is best used in long and big productions with specialised people. For fast paced stuff, where every team-member wears a couple of different hats, I'm quite sure that LW has a pretty big edge which Maya won't touch in a near future.

The time you put into Maya doesn't equal the result, not by a longshot. LW is much closer to that; what you put into it will come out. Regardless of features (which you end up using 50% of), LW is still a major player when it comes to speed/result combo.

Cageman
11-02-2006, 03:26 PM
Just to edit myself:

This is the first production that we, as a team, use Maya and I honestly think that Maya is the way to go for future things that may come in our way. We need more people in our team, and the only way to get qualified staff is to go for a software that the majority of people know and use, especially here in Sweden where Maya is dominant, followed by 3DS Max and XSI.

jasonwestmas
11-02-2006, 10:26 PM
I found myself looking at XSI foundation today but I really don't want to learn a new app at this point. I have too much going on to feel like I'm starting over. I love Lightwave and I feel that there are only a few things it needs to put it back in my favor soon.

[/LIST]

It's not so hard man. If you've done 3D you've done most of XSI already. Seriously, most of it is just looking for that one functionality in the menu set ;D In the end I just want to show off my ideas with light eminating off of a screen, it doesn't really matter how it gets done. Don't get me wrong I would support lightwave any chance I got. It's that much fun and I see too much potential to just let it slide off my HD.