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mattclary
06-10-2003, 07:01 PM
I was recently at CGTalk and saw that they are going to start moderating people more heavily. Specifically all the whining and trolling going on. After reading harhar's most recent post about "LW 8 will soon have the worst renderer", I feel it's time Newtek start moderating this board more. I'm all for free speech and having an open forum, but I feel like the board is declining and not seeing the activity the old boards did. Between threads on war, luxology, and the general inferiority of LightWave, I feel that there is a real air of negativity around. In the case of harhar's post, does this serve any purpose but to start a flame war? No, it does not. Please moderators, slap a few hands and lets keep the boards a nice place for those of us who actually like LightWave. Oddly enough, CGTalk indicated the problem seemed specific to the LightWave forum on their board. To all the trolls who want to vent their dislike of LW, go to Maya's site and do it there.

Psyhke
06-10-2003, 10:01 PM
My personal feeling is that excessive off-topic-ness should be moderated more than posts like harhar's. At least his is on topic and was only perhaps worded too bluntly for what else might otherwise be a relevant topic.

I don't go to the General Discussions forum anymore, all it is is war and politics. That great, but not what I would want to come to NewTek's site for.

Mylenium
06-10-2003, 11:38 PM
I agree with Matt. There is too much OT stuff going on and some people have gotten rather rude with each other lately. Also I suggest to take more care of putting threads in their respective sections. I would also love to see a Tutorial/ Beginner section where threads dealing with basic techniques are permanently available. After having explained 3 times how to create a fountain of lights I feel a bit annoyed if some guys are asking this over and over again. Perhaps such a section where they can find such info mor easily would take some weight off our shoulders.

Mylenium

Beamtracer
06-11-2003, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by mattclary
After reading harhar's most recent post about "LW 8 will soon have the worst renderer", I feel it's time Newtek start moderating this board more.

Well, if someone wants to whine, or say that "Lightwave has the worst renderer", let them do it! They should be allowed to whine like that, and this is the best place to do it!!!

I happen to believe that the renderer is the best thing about Lightwave, and beats 3DS Max and Maya by such a wide margin that there's no competition. But, if someone thinks otherwise, they can say it here, and then everyone else will counter their arguments.

There's no point censoring anyone who whines about Lightwave. That would just make everyone unnecessarily suspicious.

mattclary
06-11-2003, 05:33 AM
Then we should create a "I claim to love LightWave but (not so)secretly hate it" forum. That way they can all gather in one place and don't have to clutter the areas where the rest of us congregate.

colkai
06-11-2003, 05:56 AM
Matt,
I'm with you - enough is enough already !!! :mad:

I always thought the community forum was for general discussion, getting together, concepts that fall outside of the other forums. NOT for super-whiney mode type posts.

Constructive critisism is good, but lacking lately. You know, I'd like to think we could get back to the wonder years, where the top guys weren't driven away by drivel. Hey, ya gotta have dreams ;)

hrgiger
06-11-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Well, if someone wants to whine, or say that "Lightwave has the worst renderer", let them do it! They should be allowed to whine like that, and this is the best place to do it!!!
...

There's no point censoring anyone who whines about Lightwave.

Well, as CGTalk also stated, the forums are not about free speech so I don't think that you can apply the term cencorship in the traditional sense. I agree that more moderation needs to be done here.
Harhar's post was pointless as he was speculating on what is not going to be in LW8 which is ridiculous since he couldn't possibly know that.
Actually Matt, that's a good idea. There should be a forum specifically for whiners. Maybe CIM could cristen it with the first post.

My favorite whine: "well, if LW 8 isn't what I expect it to be, I'm taking my business elsewhere". Ooooooh. :rolleyes:

meshmaster
06-11-2003, 11:17 AM
I'm not so sure more moderator power is a good idea as it's very easy for a mod to become too censorship happy. I think that's what happened about a year or two ago over at the boards at www.caligari.com... it was messy. Posts dissappeared all over the place without any notice, and then comments from others about those posts didn't make any sense, and I eventually got kicked off of the boards for mentioning something about one of their ads, and a couple of others got kicked off the boards for posting stuff in the rants and raves column. What good is a rant thread if you can't rant? Anyways, since that time, I've gotten back on. What kills me about the whole situation is that I was one of the best posters over there before all this stuff happened as I visit there during lunch breaks quite a bit, and was pretty helpful to newbies.

Actually, it was this being kicked off of the Caligari boards that was one of the things that caused me to buy LW when the time came for me to decide if I would upgrade to Truespace 5.2, so it's probably a good thing that I was kicked off, but I can tell you in all honesty, that nazism censorship on boards will probably make a lot of folks mad as I and several others were with Caligari, and that wouldn't be good for Newtek... at one point a few weeks after this all happened with Caligari, the popularity ratings on cnet for the ts demo suddenly dropped to all time lows, and there were a LOT of bad comments, and I suspect that similar type things may happen in the industry with newtek if too much agression in post censorship starts happening.

mattclary
06-11-2003, 11:35 AM
No one wants to be a Nazi about it. Let's create a Rant forum.

LSlugger
06-11-2003, 07:09 PM
Yeah, while we're at it, can you tell all those script kiddies to please respect RFC 3514 (ftp://ftp.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc3514.txt) and set the evil bit? Seriously, you should be grateful that the NewTek forums are as active as they are, and that they enjoy as high a signal-to-noise ratio as they do.

I do not welcome more moderation. Ban threatening users, but don't delete posts that are critical of the product.

I would welcome more involvement by NewTek staff. As an educational user, these forums are all the support to which I'm entitled. Meanwhile, the silence over the removal of the Linux renderer from 7.5c is deafening.

Castius
06-11-2003, 07:38 PM
I agree I go to both forums and when I heard they where going to be alot more strick on inproperly named topics and other known issues that needed to be moderated i was very pleased to hear. Moderated doesn't necicerly mean deleting i don't think any thread that starts to stray to far out of control should be deleted nore do i think newtek does either. I just think There should be more of a presense in the forum to make sure people try to keep thet commens less childish. that the best way i can explain it.

Beamtracer
06-11-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by colkai
I always thought the community forum was for general discussion, getting together, concepts that fall outside of the other forums. NOT for super-whiney mode type posts.

So, cockai thinks we should use this forum for "general disscussion" and other topics "that fall outside of the other forums."


Originally posted by Psyhke
My personal feeling is that excessive off-topic-ness should be moderated more

See, the forum users who want more "moderation" (censorship) can't agree on what kind of talk should be censored.

Matt
06-12-2003, 02:29 AM
come on guys, all together now, group hug!!! :D

colkai
06-12-2003, 05:27 AM
Beamtracer,
Considering this is a general group, I would think my comment was common-sense. I guess I was wrong.
'Off Topic' would kind of be hard to define in such circumstances, but to use that to say we can't agree is a bit silly.

I wouldguess 'off-topic' is Psyhkes way of saying more or less what I did, rants for the sake of flame-wars, very much off-topic.

At the end of the day, there are far too many flame threads going on lately, very little constructive stuff. It happened on the newsgroups and folk left, it's happening here, and people wonder why 'elitist' lists for private groups spring up. :rolleyes:
I guess we'll soon start seeing folks drifting off from here as well :(

Don't confuse censorship with moderation as well, I think Newtek are too moderate in allowing so many threads like we've had lately. I always thought these forums were for people who liked LW and enjoyed using it, seems these days, it's more for LW bashing. If folks are so fed up with it, beats me why they use it, (maybe they didn't pay for it?) <shrugs>

Just wait till LW[8] arrives, how long before the following threads start;
1) LW[8] is cr*p - Newtek have dropped the ball
or
2) When will LW[9] be out? If Newtek don't XYZ i'm leaving ...

Place your bets now folks!

electroNIX
06-12-2003, 08:46 AM
well, a moderator is to clean up the place... put threads to their right forum... i.e. a MAC related post goes to the MAC Forum if its posted at the PC or General Forum, or whereever...
But mostly they just check their assigned forums and make sure people behave like it is stated in the BoardRules, as you HAVE to accept them befor joining, you have to obey them or you have to leave after you are being warned for obusive language etc...
But normally they just send a PM/eMail to the offender and maybe replace "bad words" with XXXXX or **** so you SEE it has been "moderated" or a some like to hear "censored" ...

A SuperModerator can delete posts or move them outside their area of operation, if the normal mod arent allowed to do... they also can change other things...

The Administator(s) are the "gods" of the board they can do anything they like, deleting, banning or they can delegate their functions to the other supermods or the normal mods.. so they could be allowed to delete post, which i have encountered rarely...

.............

If somebody doesnt like LW and he/she/it just cannot work with it, somebody tells them to change the soft and the mod places the thread into "Bitching Area" or something like that, where you cannot post but read the Rants, if you like. So no censorship but moderation.
If the rant-threat sorry.. thread has some information regarding LW it stays in the correct forum, no censorship either...

But this is a Newtek Discussion Board and people (actually CUSTOMERS of Newtek) come here to find help or a nice community to chat about LIGHTWAVE and NOTHING else.. there are alot of other boards, of course sometimes you want to know the other lightwave users better.. thats the general discussion forum for...

PS:
I dont have a problem with a board purely for registered customers of Newtek... the public board should be still open for demo users or people interested in LW.
Or only registered users get a posting-allowance. so only they can post, but to read in the forums is still public..

colkai
06-12-2003, 12:00 PM
I dont have a problem with a board purely for registered customers of Newtek... the public board should be still open for demo users or people interested in LW.

Actually, that's not a bad idea, mind you, I think some of those who keep threatening to take their ball home are actually 'valid' LW users, they just like a good whinge ;)

I guess, the simple truth is, it is very difficult to keep somewhere "clean and useful" without coming across as Draconian. Something I'm sure Chuck and Co. are all too aware of.

99sproth
06-12-2003, 03:49 PM
I think a better rating should be put into place. So that users that constantly post abuse or annoying threads (ahem) dont get all the privelages of other members.

And people who post lots of useful crits are rewarded with something.

Moderatings not the answer. I'd rather newtek spent time (and money) making the best software than kicking people off the forum. (and noone here can deny that it is).

Simon

cgolchert
06-12-2003, 04:44 PM
There are way to many other forums that do that and they have turned into nothing but a place to get smoke blown up your butt. I have stopped checking out cgtalk because most of the posts have turned into how great everyone's image is whether it actually is or not. That is in between the fights that started. I hear it got a wake up slap recently though. Moderation there didn't exist, some of the moderators posted remarks that were as bad as the trolls.

At least here Chuck admins the group since there is no visble moderator presence in the threads.

riki
06-12-2003, 07:35 PM
I went to a chatroom once where everyone was warm and fuzzy. I didn't like it at all, it just freaked me out.

Beamtracer
06-12-2003, 08:02 PM
In the general section of Newtek's forum, there's currently a post titled Hilliary's Lies, or something like that.

You know from the title that it has something to do with Hilliary Clinton. I'm not particularly interested in that subject, so I haven't clicked on it once. The title let me stay away from it.

More annoying is a thread in the Lightwave Community section titled "Think about it", not far below this thread. I mean... what is this? You've got no idea what the post is about until you click on it. You waste time finding out whether you're interested in it or not.

I think it's more important that people state in the title of a new thread what it is about. Then people know whether to avoid it without opening it up. I'm not sure how you'd police that though.

SplineGod
06-12-2003, 09:24 PM
Part of the reason I dont come here as often is that I liked the old forum better. This one just comes up dog slow for me and its painful to try and look around and respond.

riki
06-12-2003, 09:31 PM
Hey larry yu know if you go to the 'User CP' you can turn things off like avatars, images and signatures. Which will speed things up.

The only thing I don't like is that in the old forum the comments would get emailed to you, save you coming back and downloading the whole page to read a comment like "great work". That really peeves me.

Chuck
06-12-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

More annoying is a thread in the Lightwave Community section titled "Think about it", not far below this thread. I mean... what is this? You've got no idea what the post is about until you click on it. You waste time finding out whether you're interested in it or not.

I think it's more important that people state in the title of a new thread what it is about. Then people know whether to avoid it without opening it up. I'm not sure how you'd police that though.

I've retitled that thread...

SplineGod
06-12-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by riki
Hey larry yu know if you go to the 'User CP' you can turn things off like avatars, images and signatures. Which will speed things up.

The only thing I don't like is that in the old forum the comments would get emailed to you, save you coming back and downloading the whole page to read a comment like "great work". That really peeves me.
Its strange because every other forum; cgtalk, lwg3d etc are still much faster for me then this one.

Erwin
06-13-2003, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Its strange because every other forum; cgtalk, lwg3d etc are still much faster for me then this one.
You're not alone Larry, it's the same thing on my end. All the other forums you mentioned are much faster than this one.

Mylenium
06-13-2003, 03:00 AM
Hehe,

Yes, this forum is slow but so are NT's servers in general. I don't know how many times I tried to download the LW help files until it finally worked (I have a 2 Mbit synchronous conection). Maybe they should look for another ISP?

Mylenium

kevman3d
06-14-2003, 02:47 AM
Here's my 0.2c worth on the subject:

Forum Speed:
Yes, these forums do feel slow to load and navigate through. I did prefer the older system (I liked being able to insert images into messages where I wanted them, and build a nice tutorial easily. I've never work that out here unless I uploaded images to another server somewhere else and used the IMG tag - Anyone got tips?)

...but this one sorta has grown on me (even though its a little slower) :)

As for moderation:
There are only a few things that I think really need to be moderated on the forum. I don't really care about what people post as long as its subject clearly indicates if its a waste of time to open...

Cross posting is one thing - People who'll post the exact same question across 3-4 forums are annoying - Specially when you spend the time to respond to a post, then read it again in another forum where the poster seems to be more 'active' with it and the responses... I hate spending time helping someone out with a question if it feels like it probably won't get read...

Wrong topics in wrong forums is another - Add to that people who'll post completely new subjects within a thread and shift the subject to their own...


That's about it for now... :)

'Cha-ching!' - I think that totalled 0.6c! :)

Titus
06-14-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by kevman3d
As for moderation:
I don't really care about what people post as long as its subject clearly indicates if its a waste of time to open...

Many forums (forae?) have a karma rating system, this need some administrator work. Imagine a thread marked as: 5 points insightful or 3 points funny or maybe -1 flamebait, etc. You don't need to waist time reading something you don't want.

mattclary
06-14-2003, 07:26 PM
This forum seems a little slower than CGTalk, but I NEVER get the "Server busy, try again later" message here! Of course, we are probably just getting less traffic...

hrgiger
06-15-2003, 10:02 AM
CGtalk might be faster but it doesn't seem to me that it's THAT much faster. And true Matt, I do get the server busy message all the time over at CGTalk. Not to mention, you can't post any sizable file at CGTalk, you have to link it from another site which is really annoying.

mattclary
06-15-2003, 11:23 AM
Amen! Forgot about that little perk! I really like being able to post decent sized images here.

99sproth
06-15-2003, 11:50 AM
Good point. I dont care if its a bit slow. as long as i can keep posting *BIG* files!

hrgiger
06-15-2003, 12:03 PM
And maybe it's just because I use a cable modem but this site doesn't seem slow to me at all...

SplineGod
06-15-2003, 01:36 PM
I wish I had cable again. On this dialup there is a huge difference between ANY forum I get on and this one. CGTalk is still faster for me even with the occassional server busy message. The old NT forum never seemed so slow.

Stewpot
06-15-2003, 04:16 PM
I agree with splinegod. This forum is so sloooowww. I upgraded my access from a 64K ISDN to a 500K ADSL connection and it doesn't seem any faster.

CGtalk definitely loads faster than here. Even in this thread with no graphics it is slow to load.

Somebody earlier mentioned slow servers, I think these are steam driven:D