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Thomas M.
09-28-2006, 09:27 AM
Hello Kurtis,

thanks for posting this link. I just wondered why you don't use the newsletter to communicate to your users what's going on with LW itself. I guess many people would love to get some information about LW's current state, what your are working on, how the progress is, when there will be bug fixes or a new OB, what NT intends to do with the bug tracker, etc.

Not only in this forum each day arise a lot of questions concerning LW. Why don't you use this medium to answer at least a view of them as a lot of guys and girls have a look at the newsletter?

Best wishes
Thomas

lw3d23
09-28-2006, 10:14 AM
anything about LW9? :confused: :rolleyes:

LightWave 3D Newsletter does not contain any news about LW?

Phil
09-28-2006, 11:31 AM
I'll add my name to this question.

A newsletter containing no news about the product is a little disappointing. For those of us not able to attend SIGGRAPH, it would have also been encouraging to see some marketing elbow grease at work for 9.1. You know: big screenshots, an 'interview' with Jay....the usual bumpf that one comes to expect when a release is 'near'.

I don't mind the coverage about facilities, etc. or real world usage, but a little front and centre product placement would not be out of place.

bryphi7
09-28-2006, 11:56 AM
Please fix your freaking program... and write a news letter about that!!!!!!:)

Nicolas Jordan
09-28-2006, 12:51 PM
I was also expecting some news about Lightwave development, but I think silence also speaks louder that words sometimes. It can only mean that the Lightwave dev team is hard at work making lightwave better and when we do get news it will be more news at once and more of a surprise! :)

Hopefully we get a Lightwave update before Christmas. :thumbsup:

Chuck
09-28-2006, 04:33 PM
Hello Kurtis,

thanks for posting this link. I just wondered why you don't use the newsletter to communicate to your users what's going on with LW itself. I guess many people would love to get some information about LW's current state, what your are working on, how the progress is, when there will be bug fixes or a new OB, what NT intends to do with the bug tracker, etc.

Not only in this forum each day arise a lot of questions concerning LW. Why don't you use this medium to answer at least a view of them as a lot of guys and girls have a look at the newsletter?

Best wishes
Thomas


This is the only newsletter edition that's ever been exclusively devoted to coverage of customers using the product. By and large virtually all the others have been news items about the product or about sales programs for the product. If this describes pattern rather than a unique event (and I'm sure it is just a unique event), then this is only going to happen about once every three years.

It's worth noting that user success stories are in fact better for product sales than pretty much every other kind of coverage.

lw3d23
09-28-2006, 04:56 PM
so, no updated news about next version after 2 months?

Chuck
09-28-2006, 05:23 PM
so, no updated news about next version after 2 months?

The LightWave team is continuing to work on the next planned release, from which some technologies were previewed at SIGGRAPH.

bryphi7
09-28-2006, 05:31 PM
from which some technologies were previewed at SIGGRAPH.

ha, I won't fall for that one again...:thumbsdow

Cageman
09-29-2006, 01:15 AM
Hello Kurtis,

thanks for posting this link. I just wondered why you don't use the newsletter to communicate to your users what's going on with LW itself. I guess many people would love to get some information about LW's current state, what your are working on, how the progress is, when there will be bug fixes or a new OB, what NT intends to do with the bug tracker, etc.

Not only in this forum each day arise a lot of questions concerning LW. Why don't you use this medium to answer at least a view of them as a lot of guys and girls have a look at the newsletter?

Best wishes
Thomas

I have to completely agree with Thomas. I think that the newsletter is an ideal place to put a "Jay Roth Speaks"-column... a sticky one, where he more or less explains in breif or detail about what is going on behind the scenes with LightWave. Everything related to this years SIGGRAPH LightWave-presentations have big questionmarks.

Phil
09-29-2006, 01:49 AM
The LightWave team is continuing to work on the next planned release, from which some technologies were previewed at SIGGRAPH.

There must be some vague notion of when it will hit OB; how long it will stay in OB and when it will go final.

Failing that, I will have to re-re-request that NewTek consider breaking out the bug fixes and posting an interim patch for 9.0. If 9.1 isn't going to reach OB for another month or more, the delay is going to do serious damage to your company's reputation and certainly will tarnish the perception of NewTek and LW 9.x. We're 3 *months* after 9.0 shipped - just how long do NewTek expect paying customers to put up with all the issues being reported? Note also that your 3rd party developers are being impacted by some of these and seem to be equally frustrated. They cannot workaround them (e.g. Layout being extremely fragile after Maestro sets up a rig; Modeler's LScript being broken); users cannot work around them (Nodal losing connections; 'read-only' objects in Modeler).

I'm somewhat surprised at the lack of visible urgency that NewTek has demonstrated post-9.0. The company has essentially gone dark since SIGGRAPH - this does not fill anyone with confidence. With the issues mounting, is the official NewTek line is that, for now, all users are expected to roundtrip work to 8.x (should they be able to - new users will remain screwed)?

bryphi7
09-29-2006, 01:59 AM
There must be some vague notion of when it will hit OB; how long it will stay in OB and when it will go final.

Failing that, I will have to re-re-request that NewTek consider breaking out the bug fixes and posting an interim patch for 9.0. If 9.1 isn't going to reach OB for another month or more, the delay is going to do serious damage to your company's reputation and certainly will tarnish the perception of NewTek and LW 9.x. We're 3 *months* after 9.0 shipped - just how long do NewTek expect paying customers to put up with all the issues being reported? Note also that your 3rd party developers are being impacted by some of these and seem to be equally frustrated. They cannot workaround them (e.g. Layout being extremely fragile after Maestro sets up a rig; Modeler's LScript being broken); users cannot work around them (Nodal losing connections; 'read-only' objects in Modeler).

I'm somewhat surprised at the lack of visible urgency that NewTek has demonstrated post-9.0. The company has essentially gone dark since SIGGRAPH - this does not fill anyone with confidence. With the issues mounting, is the official NewTek line is that, for now, all users are expected to roundtrip work to 8.x (should they be able to - new users will remain screwed)?

I am with ya... They are making a lot of angry people! This is the biggest display of incompetence I have ever seen from a company that I have done business with.

Phil
09-29-2006, 03:10 AM
Well I'm not going to go quite that far. I would be perfectly happy if they reconsidered and made 9.0.1 available quickly. Certainly more quickly than the demo. Or 9.1.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect bugs to be stomped as a high priority, and for updates to be rolled out immediately after a bug has been stomped. Fixing nodal, for example, should not destabilise the entire package. I also don't think it is unreasonable that feature development takes time, or that ETAs for feature updates are not provided. I am not clamouring for the new features - I'll take them when they are ready. I just want the bug fixes.

Unfortunately, the only option NewTek are offering is features+fixes. That means I have to get irritated by the failure to ship 9.1 in any form. That gives me, and anyone who shares my need for said fixes, the appearance of wanting it all *now* This really isn't the case. I'll be happy with hotfixes on top of 9.0, with no new features - just so I can complete much of what I wanted to complete in the last two weeks.

I really don't believe this proposal is unreasonable at any level.

hrgiger
09-29-2006, 03:14 AM
Please fix your freaking program... and write a news letter about that!!!!!!:)


ha, I won't fall for that one again...


I am with ya... They are making a lot of angry people! This is the biggest display of incompetence I have ever seen from a company that I have done business with.


You know, everyone here is being fairly respectful in asking for some information concerning the status of the next update to Lightwave. You just sound like an angry little child. Show some maturity and act like you're above the age of 12.

Having now talked to the children of the thread, I would also like to add that I'm disappointed in Newtek's lack of communication since Siggraph. Twice now I have seen something displayed at Siggraph, promised a timely release and have then waited for several months until that release has finally made its way onto my computer. I can deal with delays, I understand the nuances of software development. What I don't understand is Newtek's seemingly indifference to the patience of their users shown by the lack of communication over the last few months.

I also have to agree about the newsletter. When I got home from work yesterday and saw the email concering the newsletter, I thought to myself, finally, some information about the status of Lightwave 9.x. Instead, it was about, well, I couldn't tell you what it was about because once I saw there was no information about Lightwve 9.x, I just merely skimmed the headlines. My focus right now is in what's going on with the software, not with other users and how they use it.

And I know today is Friday and Newtek will most likely not tell us anything on Friday because Newtek seems to enjoy a certain amount of sensationalism and will usually announce something closer to the beginning of the week and ride that through the weekend. So now I have it in my mind that if there is to be any news on an update, it won't be until at least Monday. Not that I have any reason right now to think that we'll hear anything by then, but then I don't have a reason why we wouldn't hear anything by then either. That's the frustrating part. I guess I have a different idea of what 'coming soon' means...

Chuck
09-29-2006, 09:47 AM
While there have been relatively few press announcements since SIGGRAPH, NewTek staff have been posting very regularly here and in other fora, so as opposed to "going dark" we're communicating quite actively. The choice of a calm demeanor in these communications in no wise means that we are not working hard at accomplishing this update as rapidly as possible for customers. If our manner were "visibly urgent" by any description then I am certain that just as many folks would find grounds to criticise that character in our public conduct.

Just a quick couple of quotes from our SIGGRAPH press releases to remind folks what has actually been said:

NewTek Showcases New Technologies for LightWave 3D (http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-06e.html)

...SIGGRAPH presentations for LightWave 3D will feature new technologies slated for upcoming releases of their award-winning 3D animation system. Among the new technologies to be presented are: a true, 3D photo-realistic motion blur, 3D photo-realistic depth of field, improved OpenGL capability in Modeler, additional capabilities for the new Advanced Camera Tools and improved sub-surface scattering.

NewTek Demonstrates Universal Binary Version of LightWave v9 for Mac Users (http://www.newtek.com/news/releases/08-01-06f.html)

LightWave for the Intel-based Macintosh is a technology preview; the announcement of availability will be made at a later date.

We are in fact working on the forthcoming update with a full court press, and look forward to providing further information at the appropriate time. Marketing and management have been made aware of the concerns expressed here.

Phil
09-29-2006, 09:59 AM
Since you quote from my post, I thought I'd respond. Believe me....I would not 'find grounds to criticise' NewTek if I were getting a slew of hotfixes for 9.0. No sirreee. Instead, I'd be a much more happy bunny.

I hope management has a change of heart. It's difficult to keep a calm demeanour when issues in 9.0 currently mean that either certain things are impossible, extremely hard or only doable by round-tripping to 8.x (with appropriate effort to bake various bits and pieces out in the process). Several things LW 9 should have been able to do, for me, in the last few weeks fall under 'impossible' due to breakage. Hotfixes, again, do not seem unreasonable and the request is as 'calm' as I can make it. 'Visible urgency' from NewTek also seems reasonable, frankly.

Chuck
09-29-2006, 10:54 AM
Since you quote from my post, I thought I'd respond. Believe me....I would not 'find grounds to criticise' NewTek if I were getting a slew of hotfixes for 9.0. No sirreee. Instead, I'd be a much more happy bunny.

That isn't what I said folks would be critical about. But you knew that. :)


I hope management has a change of heart. It's difficult to keep a calm demeanour when issues in 9.0 currently mean that either certain things are impossible, extremely hard or only doable by round-tripping to 8.x (with appropriate effort to bake various bits and pieces out in the process). Several things LW 9 should have been able to do, for me, in the last few weeks fall under 'impossible' due to breakage. Hotfixes, again, do not seem unreasonable and the request is as 'calm' as I can make it. 'Visible urgency' from NewTek also seems reasonable, frankly.

Whatever comportment on our part seems reasonable to you would still be portrayed as unreasonable and worthy of criticism by others. That's my point and the proof is available in more than sufficient quantity.

There's nothing unreasonable in wanting hotfixes, we agree with that and we've done that in the past when possible. With the nature of some of the fixes going on in this cycle, however, it's going to be a bit longer before we can get to a build that is ready for open beta.

Phil
09-29-2006, 11:11 AM
That isn't what I said folks would be critical about. But you knew that. :)


I did, but I wanted a) to vent a little after a frustrating 2 or 3 weeks fighting LW issues and b) make sure that you knew it wasn't a complaint about anything other than hotfix availability. I make no real apology for the vent - it really has been that bad.

I'm genuinely not questioning NT's commitment to moving the product forward and, by and large, 9.0 is the best upgrade LW has ever had, but I do question the wisdom of bundling fixes and features within a single point update. Still, I await management's decision on this and hope we get a decoupling in future.



Whatever comportment on our part seems reasonable to you would still be portrayed as unreasonable and worthy of criticism by others. That's my point and the proof is available in more than sufficient quantity.


Fair enough, but most people seem to be keen to get bugs squashed so they can be happy bunnies. I'm not sure I've seen anyone moaning more than usual about the featureset :) Anyone moans about having hotfixes will get my verbal boot up their backside, mind you :D



There's nothing unreasonable in wanting hotfixes, we agree with that and we've done that in the past when possible. With the nature of some of the fixes going on in this cycle, however, it's going to be a bit longer before we can get to a build that is ready for open beta.

OK, but I'm hoping that you have some fixes that might be hotfix-candidates. ;) Depending on how much time 'a bit longer' defines, it would obviously be appreciated.

From the wording, I guess the hotfix approach is definitely on the radar for dealing with significant breakage post-9.1. Would that be a fair conclusion to draw?

Thomas M.
09-29-2006, 11:15 AM
Oh, then I'll better go buy some wrapping paper that my LW update won't be lying so naked beneath the christmas tree.

Cageman
09-29-2006, 12:03 PM
I just visited the LW9 hompage and found "Saab Transformer Commercial" at the bottom, in the tab called "In The News"...

Does this mean they used LightWave in that production? If so, what did they do with LightWave... ? Maybe Digital Domain will be covered in a future Case-study?

bryphi7
09-29-2006, 12:13 PM
You know, everyone here is being fairly respectful in asking for some information concerning the status of the next update to Lightwave. You just sound like an angry little child. Show some maturity and act like you're above the age of 12.

They have showed me no respect, so I have none for them...Their problem now is that they have no credibility, They could make 100 statements and people wouldn't believe them anyway... I am starting to think they are doing the right thing by keeping their mouths shut.

Giger, don't you understand that we paid for features 2 years ago that we still don't have yet, and many features that we did get don't work properly. So please someone tell me, WHAT DID WE PAY FOR. F**k new features, give the people that already paid a f**king program that works. PLEASE!!!

Smcrorey
09-29-2006, 12:23 PM
This is what Chuck said:

It's worth noting that user success stories are in fact better for product sales than pretty much every other kind of coverage.

This is what I read:
The only information we're going to release is GOOD information, if we don't have something nice to say, we won't say anything. Future sales depend on our ability to focus on the positive, and we'd appreciate you doing the same.

To which I respond:
You've already got my money. I don't care about your future sales. At this point, it's looking like you've gotten the last of my money. Registration for your product required my name, address, email addrress, telephone number, and a note from my third grade teacher. When you have known issues (such as the red dongle fiasco) the least you could do is send me an email, a phone call, or contact my third grade teacher, so SHE can tell me about it, rather than sending us all on the goose chase that was required to get that issue resolved.. Now that THAT'S taken care of, we're expected to keep on happy faces until current issues someday, somehow get resolved. Oh, and not ask questions....

Hrgiger:


You just sound like an angry little child. Show some maturity and act like you're above the age of 12.

I can understand where he's coming from. Some of us don't have money to burn and need the products that we purchase to actually work. You'd be better off citing your concerns to NewTek than flaming another user because they have a legitimate complaint & bad attitude.


My focus right now is in what's going on with the software, not with other users and how they use it.

I don't know.. the entire opening paragraph of your post was directed toward other users and their attitudes.. I think you're more concerned with others than you think.

Also, keep in mind that while you're pointing fingers and saying that people are "childish" and "immature" and "12 year olds", you're the one calling people names..

Thomas M.
09-29-2006, 01:14 PM
Guys, please keep it down. When we would meet in a place I guess nobody would dare to speak like this. That's the problem with the net, although the bits get transfered, respect does have some problems from time to time.

I'm upset by myself pretty much. Mainly about the bugs and all the lost hours and workarounds. I don't get what they are doing all this time that makes it impossible to kill at least a few bugs. I'm upset about the lame manual covering the new nodes, the lack of information about the new shaders (mainly SSS) and a lot of my expectations where crushed concerning the abilities of Omega. It's SSS, but not one which looks you can change. It's not versatile in any way. That's been a big disapointment. So far NT didn't come up with any documentation or examples what this shader can achieve or how it can be formed to do different stuff. I don't get it.

I'm bored by all statements which don't cover the questions which arise daily, but are mere rhetorical statements. Loads of text giving you no clue.
"NT tried to please it customers in the past, present and is working hardly on pleasing them in the fututre too" covers the content of most statements pretty much.

I like LW pretty much, the way it works in general, but if it turns out to be a dead end way, then probably I really would need to switch apps, although I don't want to do this at any cost.

NT should be concerned that fPrime is getting on its way and a new professional hair solution arrives pretty soon. Otherwise I'm not suprised any more if people leave, because the consider this a sinking ship.

Considering the current state I wonder why any time at all was spend to promote and include stuff like Vizier into LW.

Phil
09-29-2006, 01:33 PM
I just visited the LW9 hompage and found "Saab Transformer Commercial" at the bottom, in the tab called "In The News"...

Does this mean they used LightWave in that production? If so, what did they do with LightWave... ? Maybe Digital Domain will be covered in a future Case-study?

There's a lot of LW stuff out there. NewTek are likely spoilt for choice, although not necessarily from hugely big names. Maya, and to a lesser extent XSI, have that kind of sewn up.

I'd like to see some really innovate one man shop coverage, though. I'd also like to see 3rd party developers given assistance - an article in the NewTek mag would probably push customers their way (either for contract coding work, or to purchase their existing wares). I do worry about the 3rd party market for LW.

Castius
09-29-2006, 02:36 PM
1) Hot fixes are always welcome. And Newtek has repeatedly stating they will offer them when possible.

2) Getting what you paid for. Is also a reasonable demand.

Being disrespectful is not acceptable!

For me it was pretty clear from the way Newtek marketed LW 9 as a WIP redevelopment for LW. If some people invested and didn't know what that meant, Iím sorry. But itís not going to be all peaches and cream. It doesn't mean you can be disrespectful to people who are trying to do the best job they can.


Here are something you should always keep in mind before you open your mouth. In person or online.

Just because something looks simple doesn't mean it is.
So donít assume anything.

You will keep your sanity if you can always keep that in mind. Plus most of the time you will also retain some dignity.


Here are some simple facts yuou should cosider.
LW 9.0 was not going to have all the features on the features list. Because that list is for the whole LW 9 development cycle. That means anytime from the release of 9.0 till 10.0 comes out.

Jay Roth, Chuck and a list of other people involved with the development process make frequent post on this forum. And Iím sure there e-mails are always open. So before another person says that they are in the dark they should probable be a little more vigilant in finding the information they seek.

If a bug is found near of after the release of a software. There can be a myriad of reasons it can be difficult to simple plug it into a hotfix build. Any time code is changed the program as a whole must be tested. So it can sometimes be extremely unproductive and harmful to the development cycle to try to deal with them in a hotfix method. If the bug is found in a script or a small plugin these can be handled as hot fixes alto easier. But in most cases the hotfix method canít be used. So if the developers says there know about the bug and are doing there best to fix them. It probable means they are trying to fix them in the best way suitable for the developement of the whole software.

Donít ever buy software for the future if your relying on it for your bread and butter. It will save you a lot of stress down the road.

And lastly if you donít trust what someone says anymore donít listen to them any more. Move on, and your day will be a lot less stressful.

hrgiger
09-29-2006, 02:52 PM
Giger, don't you understand that we paid for features 2 years ago that we still don't have yet, and many features that we did get don't work properly. So please someone tell me, WHAT DID WE PAY FOR. F**k new features, give the people that already paid a f**king program that works. PLEASE!!!

Please be more specific and list the features that you are having problems with. Because you can't just say that Lightwave does not work because I could list hundreds more that say it is working for them.

IKBoost isn't the greatest implementation and for me frankly, I hope they bury it. Jay Roth says they're going to breathe new life into Lightwave character animation and I really hope they get it right.

The CC sub-d's still have some issues that need to be worked out. They could be quicker and all tools should work on them equally well, but they do work.

Yes, Fprime and Nodal don't play well and all of us would like to see them do so.

These are just a few of the things that I know other people complain about. I know there are many others, I just listed the ones that are important to me. It doesn't mean that Lightwve is broken. It just means that these features aren't for everybody and might not be the best answer to production needs. Yet still many people use Lightwave every day professional and hobbyist alike.

As far as what we paid for, well technically, we are still waiting for it. Jay Roth and the Newtek development team have been working on restructuring the core of Lightwave and Lightwave 9 is the first real result of it. It doesn't mean that there isn't still a lot of work to do.

I know you are frustrated and believe me when I say, I'm getting there myself. But try and have a little more tact and realize all of the work that has gone into Lightwave 9 and all of the work that is still being done on it to make the necessary changes that all of us users of course would like to see. The way it has been is still vastly superior to Newtek going completely dark for two or more years while they got their proverbial sh|t together. Look how long Modo has taken and it's not even a complete application yet.

bryphi7
09-29-2006, 02:55 PM
I didn't realize that companies had feelings that got hurt.

As far as it not being easy... That is not my problem, or anybody else's!!!


LW 9.0 was not going to have all the features on the features list. Because that list is for the whole LW 9 development cycle. That means anytime from the release of 9.0 till 10.0 comes out.

It was when I paid for it, wasn't till after I gave them my money that they started with the 9X bit...


If a bug is found near of after the release of a software. There can be a myriad of reasons it can be difficult to simple plug it into a hotfix build
What about bugs found during the beta and just weren't fixed? JOKE!!!!


Donít ever buy software for the future if your relying on it for your bread and butter. It will save you a lot of stress down the road.

Oh... I thought LW9 was NT's current version that is on sale to the public as we speak...Future?

And what... you actualy believe that they are going to add more features and there is going to be less bugs?

NT brought all this on themselves. They cared more about pre selling their product, then being honest with their customers... Now they will pay the price!!!

Phil
09-29-2006, 02:57 PM
1) Hot fixes are always welcome. And Newtek has repeatedly stating they will offer them when possible.


Not entirely true. What has been said before is that a) it's apparently too late to decouple any fixes from 9.1, so we'll all have to wait an indeterminate time to get them and b) the request would go to management.

That's all that has ever been said. I've emailed before and received no reply.



If a bug is found near of after the release of a software. There can be a myriad of reasons it can be difficult to simple plug it into a hotfix build. Any time code is changed the program as a whole must be tested. So it can sometimes be extremely unproductive and harmful to the development cycle to try to deal with them in a hotfix method. If the bug is found in a script or a small plugin these can be handled as hot fixes alto easier. But in most cases the hotfix method canít be used. So if the developers says there know about the bug and are doing there best to fix them. It probable means they are trying to fix them in the best way suitable for the developement of the whole software.


True, but the last time a hotfix was issued was for LW 5.6 - it's still on the FTP site (I looked out of idle curiousity). NewTek has not issued a hotfix for any LW release since that time. Given the rewrite in-progress, raising the issue of hotfixes is rather timely - it will aid everyone's sanity to know that they won't have to wait for a full point release. Chuck's statement is the closest I've seen to a formal declaration of hotfixes in future. It's this that calms my ire.



Donít ever buy software for the future if your relying on it for your bread and butter. It will save you a lot of stress down the road.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. If you're suggesting that noone should buy new software because it might be broken, then your standards are rather lower than they ought to be. Just because something is difficult is no reason to not expect the highest standards of delivery. I pay NewTek, they don't pay me. That entitles me to some level of service, irrespective of any crud the EULA would like to state. I hold every vendor I do business with to the same standard as NewTek. NewTek gets, and deserves, no special treatment. I will always complain readily if something is not right.

If any company markets its new version as being production-ready, reliable and 'reborn', it should expect to be held to account for problems. NewTek have a good release in 9.0. The best in years, in all honesty. That doesn't mean I should not expect it to perform. Especially when it is no longer beta software, but has been declared 'gold'.

NewTek should actually be, and probably are, disappointed to hear complaints, but should be very willing to work quickly and effectively to address them. This hasn't been entirely true with the 9.0 release due to the number of QA problems (including with the copy protection system) that have been seen. This upsets people, including me, who were rightly expecting to be able to rely on the product. That's what we paid for.

This is the case unless you would be happy if : your new CPU doesn't calculate anything every other Friday; your harddisk fails to save every 5th byte; your videocard renders every 10th line in an interesting shade of magenta; your memory chips fail to save 20% of your data. All these technologies are hard as well, but I doubt you would be quite so accommodating.

I work for a DRAM company. I am responsible for process development - we take reliability incredibly seriously, right from the start of development. We cannot ship crap. Our products have to work for at least 10 years, with incredibly low failure rates. If we weren't working to this standard, you wouldn't buy our products (and believe me, you have bought our products) and I'd be out of a job. Software should be no different.

Thomas M.
09-29-2006, 02:57 PM
Well, what about if we pay for the software after it's finally finished? We would receive it, work with it and pay as soon as the bugs are killed and it runs smoothly.
As an artist I usally get paid when I deliver my final image. This is after the changes were done.

Castius, your remark confuses me.

For me it was pretty clear from the way Newtek marketed LW 9 as a WIP redevelopment for LW. If some people invested and didn't know what that meant, Iím sorry. But itís not going to be all peaches and cream. It doesn't mean you can be disrespectful to people who are trying to do the best job they can.

I paid for a product. If they wrote it from scratch, changed it, just fixed something, I don't give a shŪt. There hasn't been a banner on NTs website saying "Beware of this product. Major flaws won't be fixed for month!"

If your wife crashes with a car you just bought, I'd like to see your reaction if the manufacturer told you "Well, it's brand new so we couldn't ensure to solve all its problems, but we intend to do so in the future."

What they are doing behind the scenes is of no interest to me. It's the final product that counts.

bryphi7
09-29-2006, 03:22 PM
Just for the record...
I am not displeased with any person on this forum just NT and LW, so please stop taking my comments as if they are directed at you. They are not...

many of you have helped me in the past and it is appreciated:thumbsup:

Giger,

the program still runs... yes, but there are many issues that are scattered through both layout and modeler that should have never made it into a public release! I will make a list of all my problems and re post later, I don't have time now...

Castius
09-29-2006, 03:28 PM
Itís funny you bring up the car scenario since that basically what has been happening since the car was invented. Someone crashes and they put there head though the wind shield and get decapitated. So the next version has glass with a thin plastic sheet between it.

I donít think anyone has lost there head finding a bug in LW accept maybe on the forums.


And what I meant was Newtek offered a deal to preorder LW 9 with incentives. None had to take them. It was your choice to invest in the company. Your taking a gamble regardless of what exaclly was on there website.

Nicolas Jordan
09-29-2006, 03:40 PM
I would just like to say that I feel we as Lightwave users and Newtek customers are treated very well compared to other 3D app customers. Just for example I think Maxon charges way to much for Cinema 4D when compared to other apps like Maya or Softimage. On top of this Maxon sells everything in modules and if you upgrade one of them you must pay to upgrade all the others so they all still work together. I used to think Maya was even to pricey until I took a close look at Maxons prices.

Also notice that when a new version of Maya comes out it's users get waht could be considered by some to be minor updates and some under the hood repair work and they expect users to pay the big upgrade price every year.

Even if we didnt get everything on the origninal features list for 9 I think we still got plenty of new features for the upgrade price and considering all the updates and fixes are free during the 9 cycle we will get what was on the feature list and more all for the upgrade price.

Phil
09-29-2006, 03:49 PM
In the interests of fair play here, Scott, I'll point out that, with no demo version available (still!), you really have no choice other than to 'gamble'. I don't particularly regret dropping cash on the upgrade, but with your rather glib response about people losing their heads, I'll point out that people have lost *money* due to issues with 9.0 final. Not Open Beta. Final.

In particular this has been due to the red dongle disaster which impacted new users. NewTek didn't respond particularly effectively to get people up and running right then and there - timebombed and watermarked binaries would have at least mitigated the damage whilst keeping some vague copy protection. These people were down for *weeks*. I'm amazed that everyone affected didn't turn right around to their credit card provider and dispute the charge based on defective goods. Where was QA? This couldn't be tracked in OB because it was only open to upgraders so far as I can remember. NewTek's QA dept. were the only ones who could catch this fairly obvious and rather catastrophic glitch. You'd have to have been asleep to miss it. They missed it. At least one school has been affected by this - none of their machines were available. Many people also had to go to their boss and explain that they would not be able to build any models for clients because the frakking copy protection was DOA. This was a ludricrous situation for NewTek to allow to arise. It has real costs for NewTek in terms of repeat business and wider reputation. It has real consequences, as stated, for NewTek's customers as well, many who were affected will have had a really, really bad 3 weeks of pleading for information and desperately trying to hold on to clients and their own reputations. NewTek's customer service here was really lacking. I hope lessons were learnt all round.

If you don't have 8.x to roll back to, some of the more serious bugs in 9.0 will also cost you money due to down time and loss of productivity. I'd view all the below as critical issues :

Nodal losing connections in complex networks
Modeler's LScript being broken badly (3rd party addons are largely busted)
'read only object' issues
Modeler munging config files (despite various claims that this happens only with OB files, it's happened several times with mine and they have had to be freshly generated each time)
Hub not launching Modeler (making scene setup much more time consuming than it should be)

There are others. NewTek is aware of them and has hopefully fixed them in 9.1. Unfortunately, noone who knows is telling and so we're left to hope.

3D Kiwi
09-29-2006, 03:55 PM
Well i have the solution to everyones problems, Newtek gave away vue 5, so maybe they should give away XSI Foundation with every copy of Lightwave.
That way you get Lightwave 9.1 so you can jump on the forums and winge about it, and you get XSI so you can animate some stuff.

XSI.p, the way of the future.

Man i think Newtek is going to offer me a job on there marketing team.....

Phil
09-29-2006, 03:59 PM
;D

You'd be surprised. I like LW9 for the most part. I will happily wait for new features. I am just finding the reliability to be a little lacking - the last 2-3 weeks have not been fun. I have faith in the coders, but QA needs a kick in the pants.

That's all :)

bobakabob
09-29-2006, 04:11 PM
I would just like to say that I feel we as Lightwave users and Newtek customers are treated very well compared to other 3D app customers. Just for example I think Maxon charges way to much for Cinema 4D when compared to other apps like Maya or Softimage. On top of this Maxon sells everything in modules and if you upgrade one of them you must pay to upgrade all the others so they all still work together. I used to think Maya was even to pricey until I took a close look at Maxons prices.

Also notice that when a new version of Maya comes out it's users get waht could be considered by some to be minor updates and some under the hood repair work and they expect users to pay the big upgrade price every year.

Even if we didnt get everything on the origninal features list for 9 I think we still got plenty of new features for the upgrade price and considering all the updates and fixes are free during the 9 cycle we will get what was on the feature list and more all for the upgrade price.

Agreed. :thumbsup:

Sad that some people on these forums show such lack of tact and understanding of the complexities of software engineering yet feel compelled to engage in infantile rants rather than constructive debate.

The reason they're still here continually talking down Lightwave instead of living up to their 'threats' of 'jumping ship' is paradoxically because they know Lightwave is the best bang for buck of any 3d program on the market.

PS I'm talking not as a 'LW fanboy' but as an additional user of Max and XSI, both excellent 3d apps.

Chuck
09-29-2006, 04:15 PM
From the wording, I guess the hotfix approach is definitely on the radar for dealing with significant breakage post-9.1. Would that be a fair conclusion to draw?

Yes, it would! :)

bryphi7
09-29-2006, 04:36 PM
The reason they're still here continually talking down Lightwave instead of living up to their 'threats' of 'jumping ship' is paradoxically because they know Lightwave is the best bang for buck of any 3d program on the market.

No, the reason I am still here is because I still haven't gotten what i paid for!! I jumped ship to XSI months ago, but that doesn't mean that NT doesn't have to deliver on my purchase! Does it?

Castius
09-29-2006, 04:57 PM
I looked though some of the threads on the issue and it looked pretty normal time frame for dealing with this type of issue. Regrettable and annoying but nothing devastating. Unless i'm missing something. So let say itís someone that bought 9 new with no other previus version. You wouldnít buy new software and plan on having a job to do without testing it for at least a month. That would not be Newteks fault. And software locks are not full proof either. I've seen other companies have plenty of problems with hardware and software locks.

And you mention many issue that are currently a problem. But only for some people. I and many others donít have these issues to deal with. Many of these post make it sound like Newtek finish LW 9 and then told itís buyers sorry nothing we can do, deal with it. No they donítí they respectfully investigate any issues and try to reply to them as soon possible. Sure this is mistakes and miscomuncation. But for the most part it's handles in a resable time.

I on the other hand I use Max at work right now and it crashes on a regular basis. I'm talking usually at least 5 times a day. If not an hour. And there software costs almost 5X as much. But you know what Max has crashed this much for so long there isn't even anyone to complain to. Itís so unpredictable you canít even make bug reports. I'll take LW any day over this crap. But I'm not gonna let Newtek off the hook or let any bug slide either. But to know that I can e-mail real people and if they say to me. "Ya we know about it and we are working on it" I'm going to believe them. I'm not going to come to this forum and pretend that my world has collapses because there are bugs in the software I use.

I simply donít see any other software company trying as hard as Newtek is at pleasing and communicating with individual clients.

So when I see people on these forum outwardly trying to slander there name and disrespecting there hard work I find it a little offensive.

And I repeat this doesn't mean i don't want more out of Newtek. It just means i'm going to do it with more tact and understanding to the work it takes to develop 3d software.

Ztreem
09-30-2006, 04:47 AM
I agree with you Castius.

Thomas M.
09-30-2006, 05:07 AM
Castius, even if NT listen to the complaints of their users, it doesn't help anybody until these complaints/bugs have been fixed.

On a human level I do understand that coding is a hard business, on a professional level I don't care, as I'm paying for a product. As soon as I payed money for it, I do have a right to expect this product to work properly. Nevermind how new it is, if it doesn't work, they shouldn't sell it in the first place.

If you get a heart pacer and the doc tells you "Mmmh, it's a new product, don't expect too much" I'd like to see your face. :)

lw3d23
09-30-2006, 05:20 AM
Many companies are daxn bad, so NT have to be daxn bad too? I just don't care anything about other company

Ztreem
09-30-2006, 05:25 AM
As soon as I payed money for it, I do have a right to expect this product to work properly. Nevermind how new it is, if it doesn't work, they shouldn't sell it in the first place.

If this was true we wouldn't have much software in the world (Not even operating system software). :D

hrgiger
09-30-2006, 05:33 AM
If you get a heart pacer and the doc tells you "Mmmh, it's a new product, don't expect too much" I'd like to see your face. :)


This actually happens all the time with technology. I'm sure they dont' use the words "don't expect too much" and rather change it to a positive and say "let's hope for the best". I think in this case, Newtek has said "let's hope for the best". Nothing's a sure thing and code this complex is rarely ever bug-free. This is another thing you should understand at the human level.

Again, having said that, I myself am getting impatient for a fix/update. Not because I think that Newtek development is moving too slow, I just want my software to work as promised. It doesn't mean I don't understand that these things take time and sometimes it takes longer then a given deadline to complete. It's unfortunate, but I imagine I'd get that with any 3D software I'd buy. I've used Max, Animation Master, Truespace, and now finally Lightwave. Not one of them has been glitch free and all of them have had their issues.

moc
09-30-2006, 08:39 AM
The main concerned was if NT said the all feature list were for whole 9.x cycle...
and these without a all-new character tools......that's means those tools will appear at 10.x...
And the way go to 10.x cycle...at least need about two years(according to LW past)......around 2008......and then about a half year developing.....debug....openbeta..........marketin g distributed.......
ok....2008sig......then we "may" got the whole things that we 've seem or heard before.....
my god....2008mid.....and then after sig.......they need shipping at chrimas or new year.....2009....Oh...godash!!!!......
2009......What were the world become?...and what were we become....?

Phil
09-30-2006, 10:01 AM
That's a little extreme, I think. The statement that hotfixes will be used for significant breakage is, for me, the most important change in NewTek's policy for post-9.1. If they keep true to this statement, then I'll be a lot happier in future.

I'm keen to get 9.1 for the fixes. After that, they can take all the time they need to consolidate tools and implement new features in a sensible way. Just keep backporting the bug fixes so we're seeing the stability improve - that does a lot for people's sanity :)

lw3d23
09-30-2006, 11:18 AM
I think the thread by mark, kind of sneak peek like this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54929) is very informative, users could know the progress and the developer could get the feedback from users. Mark also gave us some info about the new tool so we already have some thoughts and instruction before we have the new tool, for instance: "I am leaving the option to render multiple passes in because there will be some things that will not work with the new motion blur. We will be implementing more of these over time but there will always be some feature, such as a legacy plug-in, that will not be able to fully support the new motion blur."


of course it shouldn't bother the developer's routine so we don't need the info everyday or everyweek, but every 2/3weeks or a month. How about some feature videos again?
oh, jay also participated in that thread but we haven't seen any thread like that anymore.

Ztreem
09-30-2006, 12:07 PM
I think the thread by mark, kind of sneak peek like this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54929) is very informative, users could know the progress and the developer could get the feedback from users. Mark also gave us some info about the new tool so we already have some thoughts and instruction before we have the new tool, for instance: "I am leaving the option to render multiple passes in because there will be some things that will not work with the new motion blur. We will be implementing more of these over time but there will always be some feature, such as a legacy plug-in, that will not be able to fully support the new motion blur."


of course it shouldn't bother the developer's routine so we don't need the info everyday or everyweek, but every 2/3weeks or a month. How about some feature videos again?
oh, jay also participated in that thread but we haven't seen any thread like that anymore.

I agree, that was a super nice thread. It died out a little too quick tho, in my opinion. I would love to see more threads like that with other features of the new Lightwave.

UbiGuy
10-01-2006, 12:12 PM
Castius...

You're right. Max crash a lot. I regulary work it. The most effective fonction in 3DSMax is the "autobackup"... lol I always keep the last 6 scenes version and it's set to save each 10 minutes....

But all 3D software crash a lot. During the last 2 weeks Maya drive me insane... I have a lot of stories about XSI too!

Lw is not more or less unstable than a other 3D package. I think people can wait a lot of time for a new software version, if they know that new version will be workable and nearly free of bugs. No joke I never saw so much bugs in a software (LW9).

But now the mistake have been done... Maybe if newtek keep people informed about progress and devlopement, their clients will be less "nervous"...

Exception
10-01-2006, 05:30 PM
holy moses.
Still no update.
Thinking about lw 9.0 is thinking about one of those dali elefants on giraffe legs, heavy, slow and crashy.
I don't want better motion blur, DOF whatever; fix the problems that were supposed to be fixed. Did we beta test for nothing? And what's with that bug tracker, I gave you guys one 3 years ago that was better than this thing, and still you don't use it.
Honestly, it's one of those days, 500 LW crashes, unrepeatable freak show things, all over the place, and no update in sight. Man, I'm glad I still have 8.5, not exactly the most stable on the planet, but at least it works. Somewhat.

Just for your information, dev team, you really missed the boat on getting Lightwave implemented here at the Yale school of Architecture. Lw 9 was supposed to be ready by december, then it became april, then it was finally released in july... great! But without the network dongle! Doh!
Reminds me of how the negotiations with the Delft University of Technology were messed up. I don't believe I'm still trying this sort of thing. *sob*

Phew.

So far my lunacy list consists of the following:
- Hub Scene Autosave botched
- Internal buffers too low modeler dinosaur
- Miscommunication hub
- Node links lost when saving
- Content manager!
- Uv Tools messed up
- Hardly multi-layer tool support
- CC's half done
- Scene editor crashes
- unstable unstable unstableness in my pants...

Maxx
10-01-2006, 08:37 PM
So far my lunacy list consists of the following:
- Hub Scene Autosave botched
- Internal buffers too low modeler dinosaur
- Miscommunication hub
- Node links lost when saving
- Content manager!
- Uv Tools messed up
- Hardly multi-layer tool support
- CC's half done
- Scene editor crashes
- unstable unstable unstableness in my pants...
Exception - I'm not aiming this at you, it's just that this is the first quanititive list of issues somone's having that I've found.

- Hub Scene Autosave: OK, can't comment. I don't use it. I've re-mapped the majority of layout so it's very easy to hit a simple 's' then 'ctrl-s' for "save scene", then "save all objects in scene". So, I don't know about the stability, but really, anything set to "auto"-anything is going to die. Look at Windows auto-update. That lil' wench will kill a system in a heartbeat.

- Internal buffers too low modeler dinosaur: Not really sure what you mean with this one.

- Miscommunication hub: Maybe I finally got lucky, but I've had no problems with the hub in 9.0. This is easily the most stable and useful version of the Hub I've ever seen.

- Node links lost when saving: Again, never experienced this issue, but maybe I'm lucky or not using the software as hard as others on the board.

- Content manager!: Agreed. Needs some help. Relative links really aren't that hard.

- Uv Tools messed up: Granted, the plg_ series of UV tools makes things much easier, and VIPER integration needs to be fixed, but from what I've read of other non-specific 3D paint apps, LW really doesn't seem that bad.

- Hardly multi-layer tool support: Again, think I'm misunderstanding this one, so I'll let it slip.

- CC's half done: Couldn't agree more.

- Scene editor crashes: Not had a one. And I'm using the scene editor more than ever now days.

- unstable unstable unstableness in my pants...: err..... :D

So, all in all, I think this is probably the most impressive upgrade I've seen from any LW dev team since 5.6 when I started. It's a completely new way of thinking about LW - the program is **** near competitve again! I'm not playing fanboy, but seriously, people, think about what we're getting and for what.

As far as I can tell, Max, Maya, XSI, and Houdini charge an exorbitant amount yearly for updates, whether they're going to appear or not - kinda like paying for insurance. If they happen, you get them. As long as they're not a full point upgrade. We get the .x upgrades for free, and a derned cheap upgrade to the next full point update plus inclusion on beta testing.

Jay Roth has made (IMHO) perfectly clear that the 9.0 cycle is an interim period. Don't get me wrong - the things we were promised need to be delivered. I think they will be. And sooner rather than later. And, I think 10 will regain LW's earlier status as an actual player in the professional market.

In the meantime, I think that 9.0 is the by far the most significant version of LightWave since 5.6. Yeah, 6.0 was the first price-friendly version of a 3D program to include HDRI and GI. Whoop-de. 6.0 sucked and was unusable by the vast majority of users, studios included. 9.0 has proved to have some localized issues that I think NT is handling the right way. The whole red dongle vs. purple dongle issue (still makes me giggle like I'm a 5-year old) was an issue, and I'm sure it's part of the reason that 9.1 is late. NT poured all their resources into fixing that particular ****storm and put future dev on a back burner until the delivered product was fixed, at least to the extent that they could.

In all, let's cut the guys some slack, y'all. I certainly get the idea they're busting their asses for this one - Chuck is still as polite as always, as is Kurtis, but there's a slight note of tension, like they've been up way too long. And of course the developer's don't have time to answer your questions personally on the forum. They should be programming, not reading the board. And if they are reading the board... well, stop it! Program! Now!

Snosrap
10-01-2006, 10:12 PM
This is just a guess on my part, but I would surmise that the reason a hot fix is not available is that the development team has crossed a threshold in the core of modeler and there is no going back. So we need to sit tight. The next point release will surely tell a tale.

Snos

colkai
10-02-2006, 03:27 AM
The next point release will surely tell a tale.

Snos

Yes, I think you're right there, what that tale will be only time will tell.
The ending of that tale I think will have a dramatic effect on peoples reactions and their choice of whether to stay with LW or not too I'd wager.

Like it or no, there is a lot of noise about the way things are transpiring and regardless of the tone of it, it can't help but have an impact on people making choices right now.

I'm very very lucky, I do this purely as a hobby, but even so, I think it's fair to say that I'd hoped things may have gone a bit smoother this time around than the last upgrade.

I know there is a lot of work in the development process, I've been in the game far too long myself to think otherwise, but that doesn't exclude me from thinking things are not anything like I was hoping they'd be.

Like I say, I don't have to worry about running a studio and the impact that all the LW problems would have on me and my business, so I can take a little more relaxed view of things. I do understand those though that feel they cannot wait / hope for what may come, I'm not 100% sure I wouldn't be doing the same in their shoes.

Phil
10-02-2006, 04:01 AM
After another very testing period with LW9, full of crashes / read-only object errors / tool stupidity, I feel the need to comment (again).

What is frustrating is that you cannot get a list of fixed issues, even privately, from NewTek. They will not tell me if 9.1 has any of the various problems fixed - ones that I have reported - and these issues are affecting me every time I come to use LW 9. That really is irritating. I'm under NDA still, as part of the OpenBeta process, but they won't even provide the list under those conditions. Baffling.

How on earth am I supposed to be patient if they won't tell me whether native expressions will see IK in 9.1? This isn't some vague, unpredictable problem. This is defective-by-design and needs fixing. If it's fixed in 9.1, it should be possible to tell us. They won't. Which leads me to suspect it isn't, making 9.1 semi-DOA for me.

They won't say if Nodal is fixed. Again, reproducible issues abound with large, complex networks losing connections. This isn't a vague and fuzzy problem, but there is no comment about whether it is addressed.

Skelegon Editor. No comment on whether it will become more useful (i.e. doesn't block Modeler; shows highlighted skelegon in Modeler), but this is something that should be known by now. The issue has been present since the tool was conceived.

Much more of a two-way street for communication is needed here. NewTek are asking users to be patient, but providing no reassurance that all will be well. They won't provide information, even under NDA. That invites scathing criticism - noone should be surprised that the frustration level is rising.

9.1 should, at this stage, be well-defined. It should be possible to say what has been fixed. They were happy to announce new features at SIGGRAPH, so what's the problem with providing the 'bugs we nuked' list, under NDA or otherwise? We're 3 months after release, with no ETA for 9.1. The userbase is being pretty tolerant, all-in-all, despite the lack of communication (and hotfixes).

*grumble* (again) Recently it's been a case of 2 steps forward, 3 steps back when working with LW9. Not happy.

Yog
10-02-2006, 04:18 AM
Ironically, having been a critic in the direction Lightwave as a 3D program was taking in the past, I'm actually more heartened by the direction I see it taking now from the "signs" we have seen lately.

However I'm definitely not so happy about the route it is taking to get to that destination.
It doesn't look as though Newtek have learnt anything from their past schedualling mistakes (LW-8 nearly a year aster anouncement), and yet again have bitten off way more than they can chew.
There is an old adage I try to use in business, "Under promise, over deliver", however Newtek always seems to do the opposite, and I don't see the new "phased release" as helping matters. People have been given a massive list of what will be in LW during this release cycle, unfortunately most of it is due at some unspecified time in the future.

Having worked with a lot of buggy software in the past, my current ideal would be the initial release to include all the advertised features (advertising not to far beforehand), and then all subsequent releases during that development cycle to be used exclusively for bug fixes and speed optimisations.

Yog
10-02-2006, 04:30 AM
What is frustrating is that you cannot get a list of fixed issues, even privately, from NewTek. They will not tell me if 9.1 has any of the various problems fixed - ones that I have reported - and these issues are affecting me every time I come to use LW 9. That really is irritating. I'm under NDA still, as part of the OpenBeta process, but they won't even provide the list under those conditions. Baffling.Whilst it is anoying that Newtek don't provide bug fix lists for released software, it is understandable that they don't provide bug fixed lists for software not yet released.
Because of the interconnectedness of of the various parts of such a complex piece of software, what is fixed today, may very well need fixing again tomorrow.
I understand your frustration in not knowing today, but I would expect you would be even more frustrated if Newtek told you a given feature were fixed today, but when it was released it was broken again.

Phil
10-02-2006, 05:56 AM
True, I guess. Rock/hard place.... Shame.

lilrayray77
10-02-2006, 06:00 AM
It is a little sad that the v9 release wasnt what we all quite expected, but we cant put all the blame on NT. Afterall, many of us were the beta testers. We should of at least helped eliminate many of these bugs.

Phil
10-02-2006, 06:12 AM
It is a little sad that the v9 release wasnt what we all quite expected, but we cant put all the blame on NT. Afterall, many of us were the beta testers. We should of at least helped eliminate many of these bugs.

Depends on how many of the reported issues were dealt with for 9.0, I guess. As reporters, those on OB can only report the problems in as much detail as LW allows them to (not much without debugging builds or logging, I would suggest).

It's up to NewTek then to triage the reports and assign resources to deal with them. Whether NewTek's response under OB was appropriate is for each OB participant to evaluate on their own. NDA probably prevents saying more about this in this forum.

Exception
10-02-2006, 07:36 AM
Honestly, if the communication was different, and the situation the same, I would have nothing to say that is negative.
Because LW is incredibly cheap, and it is their program and they should do with it what they want.

So why am I upset?
Because they say they will do A, B, C, E and F but only do B, and somewhat half hearted at that, make the rest unstable and then go on to develop R, which nobody has asked for, but don't try to fix all the broken stuff in the original that has or has not been created by B, under a shower of promises that it will be the most bug free, stablest lw to date.
It's the communication that counts, and that has always been an issue, always, and it has been causing grievances as long as I can remember. Each time promises are even made about better communication, and then Jay Roth comes on the forum and places a few messages, and then it's gone again. Chuck does his best to patch things up, but his sleek marketing talk mostly dances around the issues at hand, and has become somewhat unreliable, although everyone knows he does his best and there's no bad intent in it.

Oh and as far as the beta testing goes, let me assure you that all these things that I address were found well before the release of even a RC, so it was a concious decision to go ahead and not fix this stuff.

Software development is a rough world, and this curring edge business is tricky and unstable. We all understand that, especially those of us who have been around for years, but if the communication is right, everyone knows what to expect, more or less, and it would be a much happier place here. Sorry to mention this but anyone ever on the lux forums? I see Brad post there every week with open hearted cut-to-the-chase update posts.

Oh and as far as lists of bugs and half implemented stuff goes, apparently people need substantiation, so here's more fun:
- No edge rendering in new camera's
- Layout object selection unuseable
- Layout undo's... arg
- Layout modeling functions, as far as they're there, don't work
- PNG issues
- ATi crashes
- Multishift Multibug
- ... i could go on for a while

moc
10-02-2006, 09:35 AM
overall.......we just need NT show a reliable road map......
because we really don't know we can get what features and when they come true......only a rough raod map is ok........
so far,NT made us feel every issues was not enough......and then push those important things into the next stage.........Is this a marketing technique?Gave us a unbreakable dream?.......

Wickster
10-02-2006, 10:29 AM
LW9 has been stable for me for the things I do with it. Though I do understand the need to communicate to the masses more often.

-EsHrA-
10-02-2006, 10:34 AM
THE request:

simple, honest, understandable communication with the users.


mlon

Phil
10-02-2006, 11:38 AM
You missed out 'frequent'. :)

hrgiger
10-02-2006, 12:01 PM
Perhaps Newtek realizes that there is a lot of frustration out here among the user base and they know that any release at this point had better be a significant one and so they are taking the time to get it right.

At least, I hoep that is the case...

bryphi7
10-02-2006, 12:20 PM
Perhaps Newtek realizes that there is a lot of frustration out here among the user base and they know that any release at this point had better be a significant one and so they are taking the time to get it right.
I am pretty sure thats their intention, but I don't think thats how it going to happen.
I don't see how it is going to be possible for them to...
fix the bugs they have,
implement new features,
and fix bugs in them.

Exception
10-02-2006, 12:59 PM
If you don't communicate, you'll never get it right. If you think you can predict the user, do not seek feedback, you will always miss your intention.

digital verve
10-27-2006, 04:48 AM
I'm a bit dissapointed. After all the annoyance of lack of news on LW development in the last newsletter, again the same in the new October issue. I hope this is because a major announcement/release is soon forthcoming. :confused:

Drocket
10-28-2006, 02:13 AM
Hi Guys,

I am a new LW 9 user, in fact so new I haven't received it yet and still waiting on delivery :( so I can't comment on any of the issues people are experiencing.

Anyway I was just thinking that maybe the next release of LW 9 will coincide with the release of the universal binary (UB) on the Mac? Having said that there is no release date for the UB version but people are hinting the end of this year, this is just speculation on my part from reading the Newtek forums.

With regards the hotfixes, one of the companies I worked for had a system in place where the hotfix department (yes we had a special department :)) would work with the current release, fixing bugs and releasing small updates, whereas the rest of development would work on new features incorporating any fixes from the hotfix department.

I don't know how Newtek work but maybe this is something they are thinking about?

Drocket.

Kurtis
10-28-2006, 03:51 AM
I'm a bit dissapointed. After all the annoyance of lack of news on LW development in the last newsletter, again the same in the new October issue. I hope this is because a major announcement/release is soon forthcoming. :confused:

Don't know what you've seen, but there is no new October issue yet. We've moved the newsletters to the last day of the month, so they can cover everything that went on that month.

cresshead
10-28-2006, 03:57 AM
october issue will be eagerly awaited!

digital verve
10-28-2006, 05:41 AM
Don't know what you've seen, but there is no new October issue yet. We've moved the newsletters to the last day of the month, so they can cover everything that went on that month.

I got "Newsletter October 2006" from Newtek Europe by email with these contents:

LightWave v9 Companion Offers: ends 31 October!
LightWave project seen from space
REALVIZ tools available in our online store
NewTek at SATIS 2006

Okay. My mistake from jumping the gun. That newsletter is separate from the LW 3D newsletter. My apologies. I guess I'm a bit frisky struggling with slow modeler on a current project which is making me snappy.

Dragon Lee
10-29-2006, 10:40 AM
Actually, now that you mention it, the last Lightwave3D Newsletter I received (from Newtek Marketing, not the Europe one) was in Juli ...

Did something break somewhere meaning I had to re-sign-up for it??

Emmanuel
10-30-2006, 10:39 AM
My only complaint would be that i exspected from former announcements that updates would really come much more frequent, every two months at least, to fix bugs and add features.
In the meantime, I got myself Silo, because displacement painting of that quality is excatly what I wanted.Too bad NT isn't able so far to actually give me what I need and want.I guess I will have to find a solution for 3D painting, too.
And that XSI course at school makes me drool most of the time, too.
See, I really started looking over the fence, and I find NT should give us more of the good stuff other apps have.
The best things to appear in the news so far were FF4 and TrueHair.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-30-2006, 11:24 AM
In some areas, Lightwave lacks the simplicity of other apps. Render passes, modeling tools etc. etc. are all clunky and confusing by comparison.

Wickster
10-30-2006, 12:26 PM
Don't know what you've seen, but there is no new October issue yet. We've moved the newsletters to the last day of the month, so they can cover everything that went on that month.
End of October in 1 day and counting Darth Kurtis! Your DeathStar is surrounded with angry Jawas and Romulans. The alliance and the federation are awaiting LW 9.X development announcements. heheh:D

Emmanuel
10-31-2006, 06:24 AM
He, he...they're in for a surprise as soon as they get THIS FULLY FUNCTIONAL UPDATE, bwahaha...

GraphXs
10-31-2006, 06:37 AM
730am Chicago time...Happy HalloweenÖPlease Newtek "trick or treat"ÖLightwave news pleaseÖ :D

T-Light
10-31-2006, 06:55 AM
Wickster -

End of October in 1 day and counting Darth Kurtis! Your DeathStar is surrounded with angry Jawas and Romulans. The alliance and the federation are awaiting LW 9.X development announcements. heheh
Wayhay :thumbsup: Ang on, Jawas and Romulans?, Oh no, I'm on the wrong side again aren't I :bangwall: :help: :D

Matt
10-31-2006, 06:55 AM
Is it that time of year to bash NewTek again? Need to put that date in my diary!

;)

I have issues with LW too (see http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=453316) but let's not get ourselves worked up too much eh!

Matt

T-Light
10-31-2006, 07:01 AM
Matt -

Is it that time of year to bash NewTek again? Need to put that date in my diary!
Isn't it a happy halloween date, where Newtek announce the 'spiriting of bugs to their crypt' date? I'm kind of hoping for the latter :thumbsup:

cresshead
10-31-2006, 09:05 AM
trick or treat?
.Hmmm...treat please!

like err...9.x

stee+cats

T-Light
10-31-2006, 10:08 AM
11:07am San Antonio time. Fingers crossed they'll throw us a nibble or two some time soon.

monovich
10-31-2006, 11:51 AM
This thread is too long to read, but I'd love some sort of frank update as to the progress of things. I'm needy.

T-Light
10-31-2006, 11:58 AM
monovich -

but I'd love some sort of frank update as to the progress of things. I'm needy.
Story so far...
I got wrong for saying we were in Beta Edit mode on the forums (no such thing apparently)
Someone else got wrong for saying Newtek didn't put anything about LW 9 in the October issue either. It hadn't been released, so Kurtis said we'd have to wait and see - which of course set minds wandering.
Chuck then said we'd be told something shortly.

It all adds up (maybe) to todays newsletter post :)

Matt
10-31-2006, 01:08 PM
trick or treat?
.Hmmm...treat please!

like err...9.x

stee+cats

LMAO!!! Nice one Cress! :D

T-Light
10-31-2006, 04:40 PM
It's TREAT, brill :D
All the stuff we knew about and some we didn't like a different kind of radiosity with more custom settings, now all we needs a date :D :thumbsup:

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/newsletters/v3-n10/

monovich
10-31-2006, 04:52 PM
just read the newsletter. looks like that beta is coming. nice.

Chris S. (Fez)
10-31-2006, 05:33 PM
Nice newsletter! Can anyone expand on what that "ObjectID system" revision means for us?

"the speed of geometry selection and modification has been greatly enhanced due the development of a new system based on technology invented by NewTek's 3D development team."

Sweet! Sounds like they are improving workflow as well as performance. It has been my main concern lately when moving back and forth between LW and other apps.

evenflcw
10-31-2006, 08:35 PM
The way I've understood it is that the ObjectID system has had some serious issues which for example have resulted in modifiers loosing track of what item they are suppose to track or perform their magic on, weightmap assignment to bones have been lost, image surface layers have lost their assigned images and so on. So this won't mean we can do more, instead we'll just have less people in the forum posting "What the **** happened! It worked a minute ago!!!".

Good stuff in that newsletter!

Ivan D. Young
10-31-2006, 11:01 PM
I could be wrong, but I think that the ObjectId system being fixed would actually allow a lot more to be done. Probably not in this release just because I would think that Newtek would probably want to get stability up before they started to add more features. The ObjectID system should allow eventually things like instancing, a traxx editor, more advanced animation controls, and more. This is really great news.:D

Exception
10-31-2006, 11:56 PM
I'm thinking great workflow enhancement possibilites.. being able to select more than one type of object in layout, being able to group objects without parenting them to a null (that'd be so great... just.. ctrl-g), and so on...

evenflcw
11-01-2006, 06:31 AM
Ivan, Exception, that sounds cool. I'l take those features over nothing any day! :)

lardbros
11-01-2006, 07:08 AM
I'm just slightly miffed at why i wasn't emailed about the new news letter?? I think i must have signed up to that newsletter 5times now, and still i don't receive it when it comes out?!?

Ah well, lucky i'm pretty much glued to the forum... it looks like a very nice list of improvements, and hopefully, a plentiful list of bug fixes too!!

Nice one.