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Zarathustra
06-10-2003, 10:31 AM
Here's the link:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1121736,00.asp

Beamtracer
06-10-2003, 03:24 PM
For a while September has been looking like the release date for Apple's 64-bit Panther OS. It should be interesting to see Apple preview it at the WWDC in a couple of weeks.

With new hardware possibly coming out next month, this is not the time to buy one of the current Apple desktop machines. Powerbooks will probably only get the new processor next year.

Zarathustra
06-10-2003, 03:35 PM
It took over a year for me to switch to OSX because I didn't have enough apps to run on it. I worry that I might see that again with 64bit machines. Oh, they'll run the old stuff, but in some 32bit mode. 64bit apps probably won't come until there are a lot of 64bit PCs. THEN they'll port to Mac.

Ok, that's the half empty look at the glass.

Johnny
06-10-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
Oh, they'll run the old stuff, but in some 32bit mode. 64bit apps probably won't come until there are a lot of 64bit PCs. THEN they'll port to Mac.

well, then...if this is the case, will most of the super-kick-***** power of the 970 just gurgle down the storm sewer for lack of proper apps to really use it?


J

Red_Oddity
06-11-2003, 02:32 AM
Don't you worry, this 'gurgling down the drain' is the same for PCs...Heck, it's just a computer thing, just get used to the fact that a week after you buy a computer it is outclassed already and that the nice hardware you buy (top of the line videocards for example) will never be used at full capacity and with all features used...

It is exactly this behaviour of programmers and hardware vendors that makes us buying new computerss...If we had a computer that would run everything (because everything would be optimised on the code front) we wouldn't need a new computer every 6 to 12 months...Thus less money for them,besides, when was the last time you saw a optimised piece of software?

toby
06-11-2003, 04:10 AM
I think the 970 at 1.8ghz will be a big boost over the 1.42ghz, even running 32 bit apps

I'm planning to buy one next year even if they're only a little faster than the 1.42 in 32 bit mode. (way faster than what I have now)

I can wait for 64 bit LW - can you imagine a mac rendering faster than a PC?

Beamtracer
06-11-2003, 04:52 AM
Apple is on schedule to release Panther. What's happened is that IBM are ahead of schedule with their new processor.

If the rumors are true, and Apple opts for a July release date for the "G5" (as they choose to call the new IBM machines), it's only 2 months before the 64-bit Panther OS is released. So, it's still worth buying these machines for their 64-bit capability.

Besides, they'll run 32-bit apps faster than current G4s. You just won't be able to use all the RAM. I've seen rumors that speculate that there'll be 6 gigs of RAM, other rumors say that there'll be 32 gigs of RAM!!! You'll have to limit yourself to 4 gigs until Panther arrives.

Apple has done pretty well to keep the new platform under wraps for so long. Now the rumors and sightings are coming from everywhere!

js33
06-11-2003, 06:49 AM
They better hurry before it becomes old tech and no one cares anymore. Ok say you have a new machine that renders faster, 64 bit OS, more ram, etc...What about all those plugins that don't exist for the Mac? No amount of hardware or speed is likely to change that fact.

Cheers,
JS

Zarathustra
06-11-2003, 08:29 AM
My point was that it may be awhile for apps to be made that take full advantage of a 64bit processor.

In the short term, the new Mac will mark a new speed boost and more ram capability.
Aside from the ram issue, if the speed boost isn't significant (in 32bit mode) then it might be worth it to wait until the next round of 64bit Macs, hoping that the apps will have caught up by then.

Right now, I'm reaching the ceiling of how far I can upgrade my Mac. AGP is 2X and ram can go to 1.5gig. Will Panther allow this older Mac to have more ram? If not, then I might have to consider a new Mac. If so, and there are no 64bit apps, then all I might by this year is ram and another (eventual) upgrade card. I wish you could upgrade the AGP port.

toby
06-11-2003, 12:58 PM
panther will only run on the new machines -

as far as plug-ins, yea, we'll have to wait - but it shouldn't be any worse than the switch to osx.

Beamtracer
06-11-2003, 07:05 PM
Zarathustra, your current 32-bit computer will not be able to take more RAM with the Panther OS. Panther will work in 32-bit mode.

To use all the RAM in the new "G5" machines you need a 64-bit OS (Panther) and only 64-bit applications will be able to take advantage of that RAM.

If you run the current 32-bit Lightwave on a 64-bit G5 Mac (assuming it works), you'll be limited to a maximum 4 gigs of RAM. That is, unless Newtek recompiles Lightwave for the 64-bit platform.


Originally posted by js33
What about all those plugins that don't exist for the Mac? No amount of hardware or speed is likely to change that fact.
Cheers,
JS
Hi JS, we only ever see you on this Mac forum when you want to say something against Macs:confused:

The "G5" needs a new version of OS X to run at all (OS X 10.2.7), and a 64-bit OS (Jaguar 10.3) to run in 64-bit mode.

Problem... if Apple intends to release 10.2.7 in August (as speculated) then they can't release the G5 before then. If the G5 is released in August, then Apple may as well delay a few weeks and go for a September release to coincide with Jaguar.

For those who like rumors, this one from AppleInsider will make you salivate like one of Pavlov's dogs. Describing the casing on the G5...
"It's beautiful, all silver and graphite in color, there is no more chrome or clear plastic on the casing. It actually still retains the 4 handles but they are thinner and less extrusive. The front of machine is flourished by this mesh metallic surface, with the super drive now higher up on the case."

Zarathustra
06-11-2003, 08:42 PM
Well, this is bittersweet. It's one thing if my machines are old, but now they could be obsolete soon? Unable to continue to upgrade since it won't be able to run the latest OS.

You can't make a 64bit upgrade card, can you? Sad.

Apple made a promise when they released the 9600 that no longer would your Mac be erased by something newer; that you could upgrade and (sorta) keep pace. Up til now they've done a decent job (I actually have a 9600 running Jaguar with a G4 card). Now the run is over?

:(

Ade
06-11-2003, 09:13 PM
IM SICK OF ALL THIS SPECULATION!
Apple just release the freakin thing so we can move on, its 2 years late!

Beamtracer
06-11-2003, 11:24 PM
OS X 10.3 (Panther) when it is released will run on current G4 machines, only in 32-bit mode. On G5 machines it'll run in 64-bit mode.

Panther will also allow current G4 owners to upgrade to a wider range of graphics cards, including higher end models which have been long sort after on the Mac.

It'll be demo'd at WWDC in a couple of weeks.

Red_Oddity
06-12-2003, 02:17 AM
Well, they better sort out OpenGL...It still runs like s.h.i.t.e in comparisment to other platforms...
And now with the new update more OpenGL bugs have been added...and still not have been fixed...
I don't need a faster machine really, i need a friggin update that makes the config i've running now not such a piece of crap...

js33
06-12-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer

Hi JS, we only ever see you on this Mac forum when you want to say something against Macs:confused:



Well I've been a Windows user most of my life. I started out on the Amiga and used a Mac at a former job and have used PCs at home since 1990. The Amiga was fun to use and we know what happened there. The Mac was somewhat fun to use. The PC was a pain to use back in the Win3.1 days but now nothing can touch it as far as performance and choice of hardware etc...

I bought an iMac 800 G4 w/Superdrive about a year ago because I longed for some of the fun I had with the Amiga and Mac years ago. I had an 800 Mhz P3 at the time and it filled most of my needs. When I ran some render tests and saw that the Mac was really no faster than my old PC it kinda pissed me off. So I bought a 2.53 Ghz P4 and now my iMac sits in the corner unused for the most part.

I have 2 19" monitors running on a GF4 Ti 4200 with render speeds easily 3 times faster than the iMac so I use the PC for all LW tasks.

The iMac is basically an expensive dongle to feed my iPod.

Now that I delved into the Mac world after not being in it for about 7 years I wished in hindsight that I had just ignored it.
I hate all the speculation, rumor sites and all that crap.
I like the PC hardware world better because they come out with products more often and don't try to build everybody up to drooling dogs to get them to buy their products.


I am considering getting DVDSP so I might have some use for the Mac again.

Cheers,
JS

toby
06-12-2003, 04:33 PM
and why are you comparing an iMac to a desktop for use in graphics?

If you're more comfortable on a pc, that's fine but try to be more objective

Zarathustra
06-12-2003, 04:47 PM
It's not easy being a Mac user. People are touchy and tired of being the unwanted stepchild.

For whatever reason(s) we stay with our Macs and if we get hyper at the mere possibility that Apple might finally do something to vindicate us for our suffering, so be it.

Toby's right about the comparison, js33, but Newsflash-PCs are currently faster Lightwave renderers, due to hardware and lack of optimization for OSX by NT.

You're content in your world. We're content in ours. No need for us to piss over each other's fences.

toby
06-12-2003, 04:57 PM
oh, they're way faster renderers, that's why I was going to get one - I didn't feel the need to bring up, yet again, the macs' benefits and pc's drawbacks, we all know them by now

js33
06-12-2003, 05:14 PM
Hi Guys,

Not trying to piss over the fence. Hehehe
As I do own an iMac with Superdrive so I am at least somewhat of a Mac user which is why I come here.

OK on a more positive note.

Anyone here own or use DVDSP?
I am considering getting DVD Studio Pro but now that Adobe is coming out with Encore for the PC I may have to wait and check that out.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
06-12-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by js33
I hate all the speculation, rumor sites and all that crap.

Well, I think you knew from the title of this thread, "64 Bit Macs report in eWEEK", what kind of discussion would be in here. You chose to open it up and read it. Then you say you don't like such reports?

DVD Studio Pro is THE application for DVD authoring. Nothing can touch it.

As Apple says on its website, they haven't seen a DVD movie yet that's taken advantage of all the features available in DVD Studio Pro.
http://www.apple.com/dvdstudiopro/stories/

Adobe can't touch it. That's the one and only reason why they won't be releasing their future DVD application to compete with DVD SP on OS X.

C'mon. What would you prefer?
Final Cut Pro (+32bpc renderer) and DVD Studio Pro on Mac OS X
or
Adobe DVD authoring application + Adobe Premiere on a Windows PC

I know which one I'd take!

js33
06-12-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
Well, I think you knew from the title of this thread, "64 Bit Macs report in eWEEK", what kind of discussion would be in here. You chose to open it up and read it. Then you say you don't like such reports?



No I mean the speculation, hype and hot air of the entire Mac community in general is what I don't like. Not just this particular thread. :(

OK on the DVDSP. I mainly render to targa files on the PC can I import those in FCP?
I don't have or use FCP yet but I wonder how much of a hassle it would be to transfer my rendered sequences to the Mac then make a QT then an Mpeg2 etc...I wonder how much quality it will lose by the time it is on DVD?

Now I render my AE files to a Matrox codec and create the Mpeg
files in Speed Razor on a Matrox Digisuite then use Spruce Virtuoso to make the DVD files.

My brother owns all the editing equipment and I want to create the DVDs myself now instead of paying to use his equipment.:(

The quality of that setup was much higher than anything I've gotten out of iDVD so I'm a little concerned with the Mac output quality in general.

In Encore Adobe is going to use the Photoshop engine and it works with AE(I use) and Premier(Don't use). So the process might be more seemless or less of a hassle to use Encore.

Cheers,
JS

Zarathustra
06-12-2003, 09:03 PM
iDVD? You're gonna make your Apple assessments based on an iMac and iDVD?!
You're making no attempt to be serious about these evaluations, are you? Talk about "hot air".

Do you know what the compression ration is for your Matrox codec?
I'm very certain FCP will import a Targa sequence. If not, you could render an uncompressed QT (you can do that on a pc, you know) and import that. FCP can then output high quality mpeg for DVD.

You're comments are definitely trying to incite some hostilities. No wonder your brother charges you to use his stuff.

Ade
06-12-2003, 09:09 PM
Slower renders are the programmers fault in most, programmers on apples open gl and newteks lightwave, and adobes ae.
I saw a story at crativemac.com on how to double your AE render speeds. I agree though Im sick of waiting for the next best thing, its like they release stuff in bursts, id rather trickles...

js33
06-12-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
iDVD? You're gonna make your Apple assessments based on an iMac and iDVD?!
You're making no attempt to be serious about these evaluations, are you? Talk about "hot air".

Do you know what the compression ration is for your Matrox codec?
I'm very certain FCP will import a Targa sequence. If not, you could render an uncompressed QT (you can do that on a pc, you know) and import that. FCP can then output high quality mpeg for DVD.

You're comments are definitely trying to incite some hostilities. No wonder your brother charges you to use his stuff.

Woh! Hold on there.
I tested with iDVD because that is all I have at the moment for DVD creation.

The Matrox compression is set at the highest digital setting which I believe is about 7mb/sec.

Also what's wrong with an iMac compared to a desktop Mac with the same processor? It is the same machine basically except the desktop probably has more ram but other than that a G4 800 Mhz machine is a G4 800 Mhz machine.

Also he charged me because it was for a client of mine.
Since I couldn't afford the quality hit that I got with iDVD
I had to go with the Digisuite hardware.

I also do work for him and charge him when he needs animation.

You know some people actually make money with this stuff which is why I want the highest quality.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
06-12-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by js33
I'm a little concerned with the Mac output quality in general.

js33... are you kidding?

Listen to this, remember it.

Final Cut Pro 4 has a full 32 bit-per-channel HDRI renderer.

Did that sink in?

There is nothing... NOTHING on the Windows side that can match this.

HDRI editing + compositing on FCP4.

Transfer that to DVD Studio Pro... all your chapter markers from FCP4 are carried to DVD Studio Pro.

I'll let you ponder that for a while :)

js33
06-12-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Beamtracer
js33... are you kidding?

Listen to this, remember it.

Final Cut Pro 4 has a full 32 bit-per-channel HDRI renderer.

Did that sink in?

There is nothing... NOTHING on the Windows side that can match this.

HDRI editing + compositing on FCP4.

Transfer that to DVD Studio Pro... all your chapter markers from FCP4 are carried to DVD Studio Pro.

I'll let you ponder that for a while :)

Hi Beam,

I'm not knocking any of this stuff because I haven't tried it with FCP or DVDSP yet. But the Digisuite has very good quality output.
I don't really do video so I haven't really a need for FCP but I assume it could be used like After Effects to composite a few layers together?

Also FCP 4 isn't out just yet anyway. But I have made some early tests with files on iDVD and the output was OK but not to the quality of the Digisuite.

Is iDVD quality downgraded since it is a free iApp or should I expect high quality from it?

Also since FCP comes with alot more now than it used to for the same price and DVDSP is half of what it was I may seriously consider getting both of them. Now if Apple would only bring the price of Shake in line with these tools then nobody could touch it.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
06-12-2003, 10:35 PM
iDVD can output high quality, but you don't get as much control as DVD Studio Pro.

With iDVD, if your movie goes up to an hour, it'll convert it to the highest quality MPEG-2 codec. If your movie goes a tad over an hour, it'll drop it to half rate.

In DVD Studio Pro, you get variable bit rate encoding, so it always optimizes your movie to the highest quality setting that a DVD disk can hold.

js, you've got an iMac, you use iDVD & iMovie. It's time to switch to the pro stuff.

js33
06-12-2003, 10:43 PM
Hi Beam,

Yeah. Hehehe.
Actually iDVD and iMovie are pretty good for what they are but you hit the wall pretty quick if you want to do higher end stuff with them.

I do all my LW work on the PC and use After Effects and Photoshop on the PC. But if I need to output video or DVD I've been using my brothers Digisuite editing system. He uses Spruce Virtuoso for DVD which is where DVDSP came from since Apple bought out Spruce a couple of years ago. It has VBR and all the controls. It is a bit dated but still works well.

But I would like to have the ability to edit and produce DVDs myself rather than paying him to do it. I think DVDSP and FCP would be a good combination to have.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer
06-12-2003, 10:57 PM
The Apple "pro" applications take in all the common image formats. You could still animate with Lightwave on your Windows machine, and then edit and burn to DVD on the Mac.

Do I detect a bit of excitement about Apple stuff? That old iMac in the corner of your room might just get a work out after all:)

js33
06-12-2003, 11:49 PM
Hehehehe
Yeah maybe. I've been trying to decide if I should wait for FCP 4 and DVD Studio Pro 2 or just sell the thing.

Will an 800Mhz G4 be fast enough to run those two programs?

I will probably need to upgrade to 10.2 and add some more memory. I'm on 10.1.5 with only 256mb now.

Cheers,
JS

Ade
06-13-2003, 08:55 AM
More info now about apple unveiling hyper transport!

Is NT displaying anything at next wwdc?
LW8?
yes please. (http://news.com.com/2100-1042_3-1016770.html)
some info (http://www.hypertransport.org/faqs.html)