PDA

View Full Version : Countdown to Fiber Factory



T-Light
09-27-2006, 10:24 AM
27th September 2006 17:23 (GMT +1)
Binaryartsinc.com

FFIV will be released in Sept!
Latest news from Jon (last Friday) is that the documentation was being finalised and the program will be released by the end of this week.

Three days left and counting, or, if it's a Friday release then two days and counting :)

Here's the feature list for anyone who missed it. :)

The original polygonal fiber modeler FiberFactory is back! Better than ever!
New Guide tools allow for precise hair styling.
New tools! Includes the Strand tool for styling fibers directly in Modeler using inverse kinematics strands.
Styling is as simple as pulling the handle at the end of the strand. Coming soon to Layout.
Custom draw handler for layout shows real time display of virtual fibers.
Envelopes and Textures on most parameters, envelope channels support expressions.
UV color and weight map generation.
Length and density mapping.
Viper preview support.
Shelf preset saving.
Volumetric shadows, reflections and refraction completely integrated into LightWave's render pipeline.
Other plug-ins have access to shadow data without intervention.
Volumetric shadows works with all light types!
Depth of field.
Render behind transparent objects without refraction or volumetrics.
New guide-less fur grows directly off surface.
Includes Bias VMap map creation for fur combing.
Fur supports sub-division surfaces.
Fast smooth pixel filter hair and fur.



Tick...

Tick...

Tick...

T-Light
09-27-2006, 10:27 AM
Helps if I post an adress I suppose :D
http://www.binaryartsinc.com.

Lot of the pictures on site are development images, take a look at some of the linked animations at the bottom of the page for fur quality, texture etc.

Phil
09-27-2006, 11:03 AM
Well something LW-related has to cheer me up this week ;)

T-Light
09-28-2006, 01:29 AM
Neverko, you stick in the mud :D

Two days left...

Tick, tock...

mav3rick
09-28-2006, 03:15 AM
ff needs good betatesters... examples look ugly:) tht doesnt mean its bad but hmmm..

Phil
09-28-2006, 11:45 AM
I dropped him a note asking for examples of the following. I'm hoping he will be able to do some/all of this :

**
- hair responding to IK driven joint motion. Think of an arm with very
long hair and elbow bends upwards. Does the hair on the forearm respond
appropriately?
- fog
- other pixel filters (e.g. sky tracer)
- lighting types (including negative lights, HDRI, radiosity, caustics,
skydomes)
- shadow cast from raytraced and shadow mapped lights.
- motion blur / DOF
- depth buffer (compositing)
- alpha / mask generation (compositing)
- Dynamics calculation handling via LWSN
- Very long hair chain dynamics (think shampoo commercial whiparounds)
- Arbitrary collision handling (think hand through hair, ball rolling
through grass, hair trailing on floor, etc.)
- backlit hair (multiple light types)
- volumetric light through hair
- ability to tune lighting consideration to a subselection of all scene
lighting
- surface boundary creep over (Sas implemented this, the main example
being dog's noses, for example)
- motion modifier handling (e.g. Relativity with sin(#frm/30) in a
field)
- channel modifier handling (e.g. Relativity with sin(#frm/30) on a
channel)
- morphing geometry support
- two hairy things in the same frame. The same, but being differently
affected by DOF. Ditto for motionblur. Ditto for lighting. The same with
interacting hair between the two things.
- forces. Do you have wind, etc. implemented?
- braids. Styling, rendering, dynamics handling. That would be a really
attractive example to see on the site.
- hair linking. If I want to insert something into the hair (e.g. a
flower, or other decorative item), is this possible and how is this set
up such that it tracks with the hair volume deformation due to dynamics.

**

bryphi7
09-28-2006, 12:26 PM
Phil, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment..

T-Light
09-28-2006, 12:53 PM
On NO, Phil we wanted this thing released in a day or two, I think you've just set the project back a week with your shenanigans :D

Good questions, I was wondering about motion blur (DOF's definitely in there already), I would have thought the two went hand in hand but there's no mention, that might be an oversight. One or two of the animations at the end of the page look to have motion blur applied.

I haven't seen anything to suggest there might be wind as in sasquatch (shame), or actual automated interaction, but I think I read it can use LW dynamics for such things. How did sasquatch handle the hair+hairbrush animation that used to be on the Worley site? Is that LW dynamics or is it something inherant in Sasquatch? Saying that, gravity seems to have been implemented so who knows.

Good luck, here's hoping it's yes to all of them (although I'd sway a little to Bryphi7 on some of them).

Phil
09-28-2006, 01:12 PM
Well....it's FF or nothing at the moment for LW. Sasquatch is really not relevant for what I want; I'm not expecting any substantial progress from Worley on that product and for the price, Sas is too rich for my blood. I would prefer to support a developer who is actively, and enthusiastically, working on a LW-based solution.

Nonetheless, on a personal level, I get good vibes from the developer. He's much more responsive than anyone else I've ever contacted regarding LW or LW-based products. He's got big plans and I would like to encourage him to see them through to fruition. Now, I'm not expecting FF4 to have everything out-of-the-gate, or possibly everything in that list, but at least giving him the list shows what might be attractive to me (and hopefully others).

FF will also see lots of updates within the 4.x generation. I'm not seeing anything particularly wrong with the hair examples on his site either. The raytrace support is not uber-fantastic, but at least is a step up from the hackathon that Sas turns into in the same situation. The styling tool looks capable; the Layout dialogs shown look comprehensive. The fur and hair quality looks pretty **** good to my eye. I've certainly bought plugins on the basis of much poorer marketing material and they have almost always proven to be real winners. In addition, I'd much rather have the developer coding away like fury than tweaking one render to perfection, that's for sure.

What I also don't want is to see a developer leaving LW before he's even got himself settled, especially one who is working to offer something that everyone has been wishing Sas had. For a much more reasonable price, might I add. It's half the price of Sas, or indeed the LW upgrade (or XSI Foundation, but I'm trying to hold out long enough for them to deliver a version 6 release :D). So...it's not a big risk in the grand scheme of things; I'd like to feel that I am helping to improve LW's toolset in any case.

So, like LW, I'm giving FF the benefit of the doubt, at least for now. My patience with NewTek is, however, running out more rapidly as the silence and lack of bug fixes continues (it wouldn't take 5 minutes for Jay to post an update, for $deity's sake - it would be common courtesy, frankly). My interest in FF hasn't dimmed.

prospector
09-28-2006, 02:10 PM
Good thing I still have my FF diskette from the Amiga. 50 off WOO HOO !!!

T-Light
09-28-2006, 03:26 PM
I'm with you both, Chances of me buying into this are high.
In fact, I'll have it this time tomorrow if all goes to plan. :thumbsup:

Rich
09-28-2006, 03:32 PM
I'm glad I still have my FF disk also. I was cleaning out my closet the other day and found the original registration card with the serial #. I think I will pick this up as well. :)

UnCommonGrafx
09-28-2006, 03:34 PM
I'd like to see

- Dynamics calculation handling via LWSN
- Very long hair chain dynamics (think shampoo commercial whiparounds)
- Arbitrary collision handling (think hand through hair, ball rolling
through grass, hair trailing on floor, etc.)
in action.

I'd like to see any kind of a 'wig' work with dynamics. Whiparounds... yeah, that!

Phil
09-29-2006, 02:58 AM
On NO, Phil we wanted this thing released in a day or two, I think you've just set the project back a week with your shenanigans :D

Good questions, I was wondering about motion blur (DOF's definitely in there already), I would have thought the two went hand in hand but there's no mention, that might be an oversight. One or two of the animations at the end of the page look to have motion blur applied.

I haven't seen anything to suggest there might be wind as in sasquatch (shame), or actual automated interaction, but I think I read it can use LW dynamics for such things. How did sasquatch handle the hair+hairbrush animation that used to be on the Worley site? Is that LW dynamics or is it something inherant in Sasquatch? Saying that, gravity seems to have been implemented so who knows.

Good luck, here's hoping it's yes to all of them (although I'd sway a little to Bryphi7 on some of them).

The dynamics interaction is more complex for long hair, though. Just relying on LW to deal with the guides won't help the hair interactions to be defined. I'm particularly interested to see whether the pixel filter generated hair ever intersects. For fur and short hair, this isn't a big deal, but this would really spoil shots with long hair.

This same is true for wind effects. Unless your guide hair is going to be very dense, you need to have additional dynamics handling in the hair generation tool, in order to provide the subtlety of real hair. Again, for short hair and fur, this can be largely ignored, but for long hair, it's a whole different kettle of fish. Hair on the surface of the volume will be much more readily affected by even slight wind compared to the bulk, for example.

Once you have this kind of fine grained dynamics handling within the hair generation engine, it would seem to be relatively simple to extend this to interactions between separate hairy things. For all that, it's a nontrivial problem, but happily it is also an interesting one.

DOF is interesting because I wondered how it would work with a very tightly defined value, such as ~1 mm. It would be a good test of the hair generation system to see how fine-grained the rendering is. I'm just evil and twisted like that. I'm aware that the pixel filter is using polygon based techniques (thanks to Jon giving a typically nicely detailed reply) so this would also show any flaws in the geometry handling. Same really goes for depth buffer :)

Motionblur will need to evalute along the length of the hair (for long hair). For fur and short hair, this isn't so important, but for shampoo-commercial whiparounds, it obviously is. It therefore needs to be tied to the dynamics engine, so this would be another relatively evil test :)

The lighting tests are fairly evil, but important. What I am not sure about is whether the SDK actually delivers the ability to support anything other than basic light types. I'm highly uncertain as to whether LW supplies information about image-based lighting, or its radiosity/caustics data to plugins. I'm certainly not expecting Jon to reproduce these if the SDK lacks the interface needed. I will expect NewTek to add them to the SDK, though.

I'll also not hold him to the pixel filter request (probably ;) ), largely because almost everyone seems to have the same problem. He's apparently considering a volumetric plugin approach in a future update, which would also eliminate any raytrace hacks needed at the moment.

Anyways, I'm just waiting for the PayPal link to appear.

T-Light
09-29-2006, 04:55 AM
You're right of course, It's up to us once it's released to suggest the updates and hope the LW SDK is on par for what we need.
Phil -

Anyways, I'm just waiting for the PayPal link to appear.
Come on PayPal, what are you playing at, get a move on :)

T-Light
09-29-2006, 05:05 AM
Just checked, Current time in Colorado is 5:00 am.
If we're on for a Friday release we've a good few hours to go yet.

Something I haven't heard anything on though, this is likely to be a download
isn't it? I'd hate to buy and think I'll be waiting three weeks for a CD.

Phil
09-29-2006, 05:32 AM
The last information I had was that :

- he was on schedule
- the PayPal link would go live over the weekend
- shipping (it wasn't specified whether this was physical or electronic) would begin Monday. I must admit, the idea of getting a floppy disk through the post made me chuckle.

T-Light
09-29-2006, 05:47 AM
Shame, I have limited time for LW at the moment, I was hoping I'd have it installed for this weekend. I really hope to heck and back it's not being sent via floppy :D, I don't even have a working drive for that ancient finecky nonscense.

lwaddict
09-29-2006, 07:43 AM
I still have my FF disk and still have memories of trying to get it to work well...ewe.

However...I have to totally agree with the mention of supporting ANYONE who's out there struggling to make some improvements for us.

Worst case, this thing is supposed to help with the styling and Sas can be applied to those strands...

As far as marketing goes, again, I have to agree with the mention of great plugs out there with horrid marketing. Examples: The Poser package that pulls boned characters right into LW, and some of the Lighting setup plugs from...****it, I can't remember their names, but they rock.

Gonna buy this just like I bought it before and bought Shave...in hopes of a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not even looking for a hair solution right now but who knows? If this guy cranks out something special...and he's supported...maybe he'll branch out into other areas for us.

Phil
09-29-2006, 10:02 AM
Shame, I have limited time for LW at the moment, I was hoping I'd have it installed for this weekend. I really hope to heck and back it's not being sent via floppy :D, I don't even have a working drive for that ancient finecky nonscense.

I gave him a nudge. We'll see :)

T-Light
09-29-2006, 12:00 PM
Good man :)

Phil
09-29-2006, 04:54 PM
I'll have to nudge him harder, it seems :D

T-Light
09-29-2006, 04:59 PM
Nudge harder Phil :D
Off to bed, see you all here tomorrow :)

T-Light
09-30-2006, 10:08 AM
Phil-

I'll have to nudge him harder, it seems :D
5 mins on...

Nudge harder Phil
For some reason I missed your post :stumped:

Here we go then, Fingers crossed, next few hours...

Tick...

Phil
09-30-2006, 10:14 AM
I blame the Friday night beer. I'm still hoping he'll sort it out for today. It's a rather odd decision to wait until after Friday to launch, especially given most people's ability to play with new toys goes up at weekends :D

T-Light
09-30-2006, 11:14 AM
They're very busy, plugin probably finished ages ago but now their times taken up with copying all those darned floppies. :D

Seriously though, really hope this is a download and not a cd, and although not related to fiber factory at all, I'd like to see a software company deliver something within the given time frame, don't know of anyone doing that these days (and I include myself in there).

T-Light
09-30-2006, 12:34 PM
Tock...

Bored, writing between renders.

Phil
09-30-2006, 12:45 PM
I have a full session with LW tomorrow so I'm mulling over whether to start watching Band of Brothers or Dog Soldiers whilst waiting for Jon to reply to my latest nudge :).

Tomorrow is not going to fun, though. As 9.1 is, so far, a no-show, I'm just going to have to tediously set up every **** muscle bone by hand on each of these characters *sigh* It would have been nice to just customise the Maestro scripts and automate the whole thing.... The expressions are simple, but applying them is tedious.

T-Light
09-30-2006, 01:27 PM
Spending my time working out a SSS solution without kappa 2, which to be fair needed some serious work, everytime I've touched it over the last few weeks it's being going from bad to worse. I'm using all this 'Fiber Free' time to put things straight. :)

Tick...

Dodgy
09-30-2006, 03:56 PM
Dog Soldiers whilst waiting for Jon to reply to my latest nudge :).

Tomorrow is not going to fun, though. As 9.1 is, so far, a no-show, I'm just going to have to tediously set up every **** muscle bone by hand on each of these characters *sigh* It would have been nice to just customise the Maestro scripts and automate the whole thing.... The expressions are simple, but applying them is tedious.

DOG SOLDIERS! No question :)

You could try my muscle bone plugin which makes setting up muscle bones a bit easier... Select the muscle bone and a target, and click...

Phil
09-30-2006, 04:02 PM
I did actually go for that one - I'd never seen it before (and saw only random bits of BoB when it aired in the UK). It's remarkably funny and suitably violent. Perfect stuff, although the 'twist' was immediately apparent when he looked at the family photo (although this might have been intentional) :D

****. Where's Fiber Factory? I could make my own army of twisted people-eating canines :devil:

Phil
09-30-2006, 04:04 PM
Oops - forgot. I've got your plugin around here somewhere, but never really tried it before now. I will have to see how you map to the rotation angle and also whether it copes with non-zero angles at the rest frame :) I expect it does, but it's too late today - tomorrow will be interesting (and hopefully cost me $250!). :D

T-Light
09-30-2006, 04:24 PM
There's still time, there's still at least 35 minutes of September left here in the UK :D

Okay Okay, It ain't coming this evening.

T-Light
09-30-2006, 10:36 PM
Oh my goodness, look at the time.
Been busy, can't stop when I'm nearly there :D
Jon, if you read these threads, this girl needs hair :help:

geothefaust
09-30-2006, 11:42 PM
That's looking really good T-Light. I can't wait to see her with some hair. :)

T-Light
10-01-2006, 12:48 AM
Thanks old man :),
It'd taken a downer over the last month with quicky experiments that didn't amount to anything. If FF had been released for download on Friday I wouldn't have had anything to really get my teeth into.

Well there we go. Fiber Factory is now unofficially slated for an October release.

In my case at least, every cloud has a silver lining :D

Phil
10-01-2006, 02:13 AM
Latest from Jon :

Im still finishing up loose ends, fixing a multithreaded issue and dont want to jump the gun, I want this release to be spot on...
Im burning the midnight oil to finish

T-Light
10-01-2006, 07:29 AM
Thanks Phil.

Pity He has a multithreading issue, they can be very nasty indeed.

On another note, has He mentioned if this will be available as a downoad? I wrote on Friday to ask but I haven't recieved a reply yet.

T-Light
10-04-2006, 02:11 PM
Latest News from Jon -

I expect to have it ready this friday!
He's been testing on a dualcore and has had some time to start playing with it (Coding only until a couple of weeks ago), so, He's using the time to tie up loose ends :)

All being well, 48 hours and counting :thumbsup:

Phil
10-04-2006, 02:41 PM
Ahah! I just dropped him a note to ask around 2 hours ago. :)

I don't need to worry that he won't be getting enough encouragement. :D

T-Light
10-04-2006, 03:33 PM
It get's better, Updates and downloads will ultimately be available from the site, for now, Registered users will be sent the software via email.

WooHoo, no waiting weeks for transatlantic pony express :D :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Fingers crossed, all being well, Xmas in two days :)

KillMe
10-04-2006, 05:07 PM
t-light thats some nice skin and sss you got on that womans face - excelent work - love it - looki forward to seeing her with hair =) - what can i say bald chicks dont do it for me =)

T-Light
10-04-2006, 06:30 PM
Thanks KillMe :), fingers crossed for weekend hairification :D

Phil
10-05-2006, 07:59 AM
It get's better, Updates and downloads will ultimately be available from the site, for now, Registered users will be sent the software via email.

WooHoo, no waiting weeks for transatlantic pony express :D :D :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Fingers crossed, all being well, Xmas in two days :)

Hurray! I wonder if FF will have a dandruff option :D

Looks like this weekend is going to go very quickly. Now if Dynamite gets an update as well, I'll really struggle to do anything more useful around the house :thumbsup: What a shame, eh?

T-Light
10-06-2006, 03:52 AM
3am in Colorado, No sign of Santa yet :D


I'll really struggle to do anything more useful around the house What a shame, eh?
That's a point, I've a ceiling to plaster, an internal wardrobe to build and two door handles to fix, bum :(

Phil
10-06-2006, 09:52 AM
It's now available :thumbsup::bday:

Jeffers
10-06-2006, 10:01 AM
Well Well - No mac version! There's a surprise...

Phil
10-06-2006, 10:21 AM
Email him and ask. Jon's pretty sharp to reply to any email that arrives.

T-Light
10-06-2006, 10:36 AM
:D WOOHOO :D

neodream-

Well Well - No mac version! There's a surprise...
Mac and 64bit version are coming next, after that the demo will be released :)

T-Light
10-06-2006, 11:17 AM
Bought and waiting the download email, anyone recieved their's yet?

bryphi7
10-06-2006, 11:26 AM
Bought and waiting the download email, anyone recieved their's yet?

Post some of your tests T-light, when you get it up and running...

T-Light
10-06-2006, 11:28 AM
Will do.

Phil
10-06-2006, 11:43 AM
I received the package. The license control is like PointOven (mildly irritating not to have a license server or dongle-locked approach, but nothing fatal). I'm just waiting on the activation code.

T-Light
10-06-2006, 12:01 PM
Snap

[Edit] Got it :D, Unfortunately, we're off for an Indian, typical :)

wacom
10-06-2006, 12:42 PM
So wait...is this Kmass's plug...just how many of these new hair plugins are there?

Well this is the first one out the door...waiting for some samples!

UnCommonGrafx
10-06-2006, 12:51 PM
Bummer...
It doesn't work under screamernet? Is that for real?
That's too bad.

Phil
10-06-2006, 01:23 PM
I'm assuming that is down to the rather severe license control. You can't even add the plugins to LW without having the authorisation code. That means no rendering of scenes on anything other than machines that have an activated license - the plugins simply won't work without authorisation. I'm hoping he'll ease up on this and was actually surprised it wasn't a typical dongle-locked license. That said, you can, like PointOven, transfer the license by yourself without trouble. I'm just a little nervous about what happens if Windows blows up in a craptacular fashion and you cannot recover the license key.

It will do for now, though, and lots of email to the plugin author about this might get him to reconsider ;)

The plugin itself works fairly well. Hair rendering is fast, shows up in VIPER and the custom draw object is also pretty good. Reflections are not fantastically accurate, as was already known. Backlit hair looks really very nice and I have no complaints about the hair quality.

The Modeler UI is a little dated - it harks from the old version of Fiber Factory, also as already known. The viewport doesn't seem to have keyboard shortcuts and the OpenGL is a little laggy (making zoom tricky). Nonetheless, the styling is actually really nice and is supplemented by the strand tool yet.

I'm still toying with it and have sent a good chunk of feedback to Jon already. My only real gripe is the license control - it would have been much nicer to have it dongle locked.

UnCommonGrafx
10-06-2006, 01:51 PM
That's a no-no in my book.

bryphi7
10-06-2006, 02:00 PM
Phil,
Would you say that it is as functional as the hair solutions that are out for other apps.

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/modules/hair/hair_e.html
http://www.joealter.com/

Phil
10-06-2006, 02:40 PM
That's a no-no in my book.

The reply I got from Jon about this was that the current version does not provide for LWSN, largely because he hasn't been able to test it. He does plan LWSN support, but on two levels. A personal license will not include unlimited network rendering, but will allow reasonable limited use. This should be ready in a couple of weeks. I have no additional information on this topic. Any larger deployment will need to contact him. The web page has apparently been updated to state this.

In relation to licensing, we all apparently have X-Force to thank for releasing the last version of Fiber Factory before it was even finished. Jon stated that he was out of business in only a couple of weeks due to this, principally because of the amount of time he had invested into developing the plugin. So, in order to avoid this, he's avoided dongle-locking the software and gone for this approach (apparently, it's also cheaper to do it this way than to use Rainbow's code). Like PointOven, I'll tolerate it, but I don't like it.

Functionality-wise, it's pretty much what I wanted. There is improvement needed on the reflection support (refraction not tried yet) - the reflection is pretty low quality at the moment, but is usable by-and-large. Styling seems pretty straightforward - give me a day or so to really get a better feel for it.

I also haven't yet played with the dynamics, motion blur, etc.

As noted, hair rendering does seem really speedy (although VIPER can be sluggish) and appears really very nice indeed. You don't need to use the Modeler plugins for relatively simple hair setups, either.

lw3d23
10-06-2006, 02:46 PM
thanks, Phil, any sample image? have you try rendering with Sas/ Saslite?

Phil
10-06-2006, 03:08 PM
Phil,
Would you say that it is as functional as the hair solutions that are out for other apps.

http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/modules/hair/hair_e.html
http://www.joealter.com/

The styling implementation, at first glance, looks pretty good - and frankly, anything is better than the current 'options'. FF lacks some of the features of shave (e.g. direct mouse-driven grooming in the viewport) and I don't think you can directly grab the ends of the hair in the OpenGL window. What caters for some of this appears to be the strand tool. That said, I've not had it enough time yet to really get stuck in - I've been toying with the Layout side of things to see when it collapses.

What is really nice is the drawn preview of the hair in Layout. You can alter the parameters in Layout and really see how the hair is responding. FF also lets you set a preview limit to prevent your OpenGL card committing suicide. Really, very nice though.

I've also dialled the hair quantity up to insane levels and have seen no ill effects. I've yet to see it page to disk - all you see is the increase in CPU time needed to render the image. Nice surprise.

The hair response in Layout does seem entirely reliant on LW's dynamics (or at least some non-FF dynamics applied to guides). I need to test this further, but it's reasonable for now.

Surfacing is provided by fields for colour/diffuse/specular/gloss/luminosity/ambient and tip transparency. There is not yet a provision for subselections of the scene lighting (which would be a good thing to have). Shadow behaviour is not something I've played with yet.

Phil
10-06-2006, 03:13 PM
thanks, Phil, any sample image? have you try rendering with Sas/ Saslite?

Nothing in particular. I'm still poking around to see where the limits are. I'm hoping to begin more serious usage tomorrow. I want to get to grips with the styling features. Up to now, I've been using guideless hair on simple objects, to see how the lighting behaves and to shove the camera really deeply into thick hair to see what the hair quality really looks like up close (smooth is an understatement - compared to Sas grass, it's utterly wonderful).

bryphi7
10-06-2006, 03:20 PM
You sound optimistic...Thats good!
Please do post some images when you get situated, of the interface and the ogl in layout too...

Phil
10-06-2006, 03:32 PM
What I forgot to mention is that you can backcull the hair as well, giving you even more opportunity to go wild with the hair density (assuming that you don't need reflection). Total LW memory usage is a shade over 700 MB rendering enough hairs to provide 2 million edges at 640x480 (no backculling because I overlooked its existence).

Really, the only downer remains the need to remember to transfer the license between machines. I'm hoping he'll provide secondary license discounts for mere mortals like me so that we can avoid faffing around without dropping the same cash again for a second license. We'll see.

T-Light
10-06-2006, 04:32 PM
OK, it's not what you'd call an impressive image, but the fur quality is astounding.
It's basically my head object with fur applied (Well, Killme wanted to see her with hair :D).
Again, not posting this for any other reason than fur quality, it's amazing. The image is lit with 4 point lights and 50% backdrop radiosity (Haven't rendered without radiosity so I'm not sure if that's having an effect).

bryphi7
10-06-2006, 04:49 PM
HDR, Area lights and radiosity not completely supported yet.

When they are, I will buy...

hair quality does look good.

wacom
10-06-2006, 07:07 PM
T-light, can you put some end jitter on that? I think that alone would take it up a notch! Looks good though, what was the rendertime?

gjjackson
10-06-2006, 10:47 PM
Every time I try to do a render it causes Layout to crash. And I Certainly don't like the idea of a single machine and not dongle driven. I doubt I'd of bought it knowing that.

BazC
10-07-2006, 12:38 AM
OK, it's not what you'd call an impressive image, but the fur quality is astounding.
It's basically my head object with fur applied (Well, Killme wanted to see her with hair :D).
Again, not posting this for any other reason than fur quality, it's amazing. The image is lit with 4 point lights and 50% backdrop radiosity (Haven't rendered without radiosity so I'm not sure if that's having an effect).

Looks nice! How reliant is it on SAS? You can render with or without the Sasquatch renderer right? Do you really need the full version of Sasquatch to get the most out of it?

Phil
10-07-2006, 01:12 AM
Basically, Sas would simply be used with the guides that you created in the Modeler portions of Fiber Factory. Sas would know nothing of FF at all.

If SasLite can work with guides, then you'll have the same situation there. Haven't tried it yet, mind you.

FF itself is entirely independent of Sas. Knows not, cares not.

BazC
10-07-2006, 01:47 AM
Thanks Phil, sounds good!

Phil
10-07-2006, 03:57 AM
Styling is very sweet and is overall surprisingly intuitive. You basically add guide splines to the surface and tune the shape of those (by mouse dragging) to define the shape of the hair in each region. You can add extra nodes to the guide spline as needed. For once, styling hair is actually enjoyable!

Phil
10-07-2006, 04:20 AM
Dense hair, up close. Surfacing wasn't really adjusted, but hopefully it illustrates the hair quality :) I can't fault it.

Dodgy
10-07-2006, 05:04 AM
The cool thing is you can use the guides to make more guides, and use those more guides to make more guides. So you could make just few, to get a rough shape, then make more guides with those rough shape which you can then refine, and add more twirls etc to, then use those to make MORE guides...

kmaas
10-07-2006, 07:38 AM
So wait...is this Kmass's plug...just how many of these new hair plugins are there?

Nope. Mine will do dynamics too. It's not done yet though - still out of town and working on it. I'm hoping I'll be able to post some videos of the dynamics soon.

gjjackson
10-07-2006, 02:11 PM
This has Got to be the buggiest software I've used. Consistent lock-up, crashes. This Should be a Beta version. Very clumsy workflow.

Phil
10-07-2006, 02:16 PM
It's been working fine here. The Modeler plugin can be a little shaky at times, but Layout has been rock-solid.

I realised I missed a bit off one of Jon's replies - keyboard shortcuts are available in the styling tool :

The navigation window supports the same hotkeys as Lightwave, holding down alt rotates, alt+ctrl zooms and alt+shift pans the view. The “a” key auto fits the fiber object and centers it in the view. 1 – 6 numeric keys shows front, back, top, bottom, right, left views respectively.

gjjackson
10-07-2006, 04:27 PM
The problem I had with Layout was with Viper and crashed a number of times or just went silent. But with the modeler side of it that's where most of the problems have been. Mainly trying to create guides on a complex character. I created a surface Hair and just had those visible when going to FF. Couldn't get the strand tool to work. Unable to rotate object once add guide is done. A few times the whole object disappeared. I haven't determined why it crashes so often. Usually when closing out and going back in.

Phil
10-08-2006, 09:16 AM
It's worth reporting problems to Jon. I've received several new builds during today as he's working to improve the collision detection in the styling tool and a couple of crash bugs in the same tool.

Nothing like rapid customer service to keep a guy happy :)

T-Light
10-11-2006, 04:50 PM
Quicky work in progress, KillMe wanted some proper hair (rather than a furry face :D), so here we go, SSS is a work in progress (just tweaked the UV's today so the skin colouring around the eyes is pulled into the nose).

FF,works just dandy with SSS, it adds its shadows before kappa gets it's hands on shadow data so low res blocky shadow data is scattered into the skin. The upside is you don't have to increase your shadow resolution within FF, the downside is the render times increase dramatically.

gjjackson
10-11-2006, 05:54 PM
I've been trying out some and haven't been able to get dynamics (Cloth) to work. When rendered it always as if at Frame 0.

T-Light
10-11-2006, 06:27 PM
I'm with you there, I tried dynamics the other day and failed, not sure if it's me or the software.

Wanted to write down a number of bugs to Jon but He's kicking out updates faster than I can get a list together. I'll get something together tomorrow of what I know is suspect, I'll mention dynamics.

kmaas
10-11-2006, 06:36 PM
If you can wait a bit on the dynamics, my new hair dynamics engine is coming along well. It's optimized for hair and I'm pretty sure it'll work with FF. It's also got a some really nifty features that ClothFX doesn't have. I'm not saying ClothFX is bad, just that some of this stuff is really specific to hair. I've just got a couple more things I've got to do with it before I can show some simple examples. So, there's hope! :D

Phil
10-11-2006, 11:22 PM
I'm hoping that the remaining quirks get knocked out of the styling tool fairly soon. I get a very interesting mexican wave effect at the moment with the surface-related gravity parameter. :D

That said, I could have sworn I had clothfx applied to the guides in Layout and had them working, but the real problem was that the dynamics were really slow to calculate. I considered using simple spheres as collision objects to see if that would speed it up, but had other things to do. I'm planning to find time in the next week or so to look at the Layout end again.

Again, report whatever you find broken/awkward (with content). Jon seems extremely focussed on pushing out fixes as quickly as possible.

moc
10-12-2006, 12:06 AM
If you can wait a bit on the dynamics, my new hair dynamics engine is coming along well. It's optimized for hair and I'm pretty sure it'll work with FF. It's also got a some really nifty features that ClothFX doesn't have. I'm not saying ClothFX is bad, just that some of this stuff is really specific to hair. I've just got a couple more things I've got to do with it before I can show some simple examples. So, there's hope! :D

mmmm...I'm waiting to be your beta tester....^^!!

kmaas
10-12-2006, 06:20 AM
mmmm...I'm waiting to be your beta tester....^^!!

Won't be too long I hope. :thumbsup:

SplineGod
10-12-2006, 03:14 PM
That said, I could have sworn I had clothfx applied to the guides in Layout and had them working, but the real problem was that the dynamics were really slow to calculate. I considered using simple spheres as collision objects to see if that would speed it up, but had other things to do. I'm planning to find time in the next week or so to look at the Layout end again.


What also works well is to use a low(er) poly cage that the hair guides are metalinked to. Turning on fiber effect in the clothfx panel helps even more. :)

mav3rick
10-12-2006, 03:54 PM
hmm why cant we have all in 1 solution like all other apps have?
i feel like i have to use 10 different plugins to make my hair work.... :(

kmaas
10-12-2006, 04:12 PM
hmm why cant we have all in 1 solution like all other apps have?
i feel like i have to use 10 different plugins to make my hair work.... :(

My new hair/fur plugin will fix that. It'll have styling tools, dynamics, and a renderer. But, it's not done yet. It's coming along really well, but it's still not done yet.

hrgiger
10-12-2006, 04:17 PM
My new hair/fur plugin will fix that. It'll have styling tools, dynamics, and a renderer. But, it's not done yet. It's coming along really well, but it's still not done yet.

Can we see something at all? Even if it's not working 100%, I don't care. I just find it hard to believe that you asked people what kind of plug-in they would like to see such as a hair plug-in and then within a few weeks, you are already as far along with it as you say you are. I guess thinking of Sasquatch, it took Worley over 4 years to develop it (and as we all know, it's still not what a lot of us would call finished).
Call me a skeptic.

kmaas
10-12-2006, 04:21 PM
Can we see something at all?

Well, like I said, it's not nearly finished, and it still doesn't save. At this point, it simulates the motion of hair almost completely, only without collision detection. I'll post videos as soon as those are done.

I just thought about this - I hope I'm not annoying anyone by posting about it so much. It's kind of the only thing I'm doing with my spare time now and one of the only things I think about even when I'm working. Sorry if I'm bugging anyone - I'm kind of excited about it. :D

SplineGod
10-12-2006, 04:33 PM
Yea, we hate being bothered about cool new tools ;)

hrgiger
10-12-2006, 04:33 PM
Well, like I said, it's not nearly finished, and it still doesn't save. At this point, it simulates the motion of hair almost completely, only without collision detection. I'll post videos as soon as those are done.

I just thought about this - I hope I'm not annoying anyone by posting about it so much. It's kind of the only thing I'm doing with my spare time now and one of the only things I think about even when I'm working. Sorry if I'm bugging anyone - I'm kind of excited about it. :D

And hey, if you come out with a nice plug-in out of it, I'll be the first to congratulate you on it. And I don't think you're annoying anyone with it. What would be annoying is if we found out you were just blowing smoke up our, well, you know...

kmaas
10-12-2006, 04:48 PM
OK, OK, I'll work on saving/collisions tonight. I've already got over 1,000 lines of code in the dynamics module alone (see attached partial screenshot for proof). So, yes, it is an actual plugin, not just a theoretical. It's just not enough of a plugin to show anyone yet. :D

Edit: Just so you know, I already worked on it for a couple hours this morning before work. It's much more stable/less stretchy than yesterday.

GraphXs
10-12-2006, 09:10 PM
:D So many hair choices being developed for LW at the moment, so could ya give us a list of what your tools would offer us?

Thanks

Sensei
10-12-2006, 10:41 PM
:D So many hair choices being developed for LW at the moment, so could ya give us a list of what your tools would offer us?


Yeah, too many of them, too many.. ;)

Phil
10-12-2006, 11:38 PM
Meanwhile, Fiber Factory is also seeing an awful lot of updates. New features in the build that arrived in my inbox today include the use of weightmaps to drive styling. Collision detection in the Modeler portion is also getting further attention. Jon's certainly been on the ball with fixes and tweaks - a crash bug was eradicated the same day once I sent the mesh to Jon and he could figure out what was busted, for example. :)

I'm hoping to have something to show during the weekend, in some near-finished state. :) I am very, very happy with FF4. Giving lots of feedback also won me a second license ;)

monovich
10-13-2006, 12:11 AM
looking foreward to seeing what FF can do, as well as the as of yet unreleased plugin. Both sound hopeful.

geothefaust
10-13-2006, 12:40 AM
Yeah, too many of them, too many.. ;)



Haha. I'm really looking forward to the choices we have. :thumbsup:

Sensei
10-13-2006, 12:51 AM
Haha. I'm really looking forward to the choices we have. :thumbsup:

TrueHair is almost previewing hairs in real-time, the whole structure managment is in place (today finished making CTHSkin C++ class holding surface where hairs will grow).. I hope we will send something within this week presenting it in video, and bending with hair guides presented so far on TrueHair Styler videos..

There is more than 10-15 thousands of lines of code finished..

moc
10-13-2006, 02:10 AM
TrueHair is almost previewing hairs in real-time, the whole structure managment is in place (today finished making CTHSkin C++ class holding surface where hairs will grow).. I hope we will send something within this week presenting it in video, and bending with hair guides presented so far on TrueHair Styler videos..

There is more than 10-15 thousands of lines of code finished..

Those lovely programmers,If yours look for a beta tester....pls contact me...
I glad to be.....

Sensei
10-13-2006, 02:39 AM
Those lovely programmers,If yours look for a beta tester....pls contact me...
I glad to be.....

Well, that's not free.. Everyday new people pre-order it, giving 250-1000 usd per day.. So there is enough money for programmers for a couple months now (but the more you have the faster work ;) ).. source code growing about 1000-2000 lines per day..

ercaxus
10-13-2006, 02:45 AM
You forgot to attach an image showing the line count sensei. I honestly hope he shows something cool very soon.
:goodluck: kmaas.

hrgiger
10-13-2006, 03:07 AM
Now Worley needs to come out with a very very impressive version 2 that will justify the $500 price tag for Sasquatch.

mav3rick
10-13-2006, 03:25 AM
sensei hey glad to hear about the money:) and really i have nothin against see new worley on horizon.. i am ready to give my credit card to anything that really pays off.. and i look for decent hair solution ... i mean i really hatte partial solutions more and more.. like in this i can do hair in this i i can do styling and hmm what now how i do dymanic than i have to f*u*c*k round with cloth fx yada yada and than i go for render.. BIG minus for me in sasq has no hair styling except short hair wich is again pain in *** in most cases and my object is full of null objects sometime.... no hair prewiev and no really interaction btw objects and hair like full dynamic.. for example moving object trough grass field will not make grass bend nice i need to do wind effector aplied to null object ?!?!? JUCK... so every time i look some of dreamworks or disney cartoons i feel like **** i cant do this:( and giving 400 or 600 bucks for somethin that renders NICE but cant make all of those stuff makes me feel bad:(

so please take your time sit and do full solution and my money for sure is yours... i see more and more talented programmers out there .. and i feel worley is not the only code guru anymore!
way to go sensei... and if ya need hand on betatesting:) hehehe

mav3rick
10-13-2006, 03:31 AM
kmas
why dont u save some prewiev out of lw and show us how your dymanic work?
btw be sure to do dynamic interaction as i said to sensei .. i dont buy half dynamic solutions no more:)

Sensei
10-13-2006, 03:52 AM
You forgot to attach an image showing the line count sensei. I honestly hope he shows something cool very soon.
:goodluck: kmaas.

:D Hahaha.. ;)

Unfortunately I can't do that because TrueHair is divided to 50-60 source files.. It's even hard to count lines..

Honestly I prefer to show videos (there are 4 TrueHair Styler videos for now), instead of line count.. ;)

Phil
10-13-2006, 04:01 AM
Now Worley needs to come out with a very very impressive version 2 that will justify the $500 price tag for Sasquatch.

Nope. He just needs to continue doing as he's doing. We've had more progress recently with stagnant Sas than we've had in all the years previously. I'm perfectly happy for Worley to maintain the status quo and give me the opportunity to pay less for more, with developers who are keen to push their abilities to the absolute maximum. :D

GraphXs
10-13-2006, 05:12 AM
I really hope Mr. Worley is just working on FPrime/Node pipeline. FiberF,TureArt, and Kmaas seem to be creating the tools we will want for hair creation.:thumbsup:


TrueHair tools r look'n :D

kmaas
10-13-2006, 06:27 AM
OK folks, this is a really pathetic example I threw together last night, but here you go. The dynamics were all done using my new plugin. You can see the guides if you look close enough. It's pretty much all stuff you could do with ClothFX at this point (more to come).

Sorry about the lousy render quality - I'm not finished with the renderer yet, so I used SasLite for the example. Plus, I haven't finished motion blur.

Also, a quick little benchmark. It took about 2 seconds to calculate the motion (including Layout drawing the animation) which means it calculated faster than real time. And I haven't even optimized it yet! :boogiedow

So, please remember while you're watching this, it's a PREVIEW. Barely any of the final features are usable yet. There's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that doesn't show up in the interface. But I keep getting requests for screenshots and examples, so here you go. A screenshot and a render. Just please keep in mind that IT WILL GET BETTER. There's a lot of cool stuff down the road, but you've got to start somewhere.

kmaas
10-13-2006, 06:30 AM
TrueHair is almost previewing hairs in real-time, the whole structure managment is in place (today finished making CTHSkin C++ class holding surface where hairs will grow).. I hope we will send something within this week presenting it in video, and bending with hair guides presented so far on TrueHair Styler videos..

There is more than 10-15 thousands of lines of code finished..

Oh, so THAT's why you kept trying to discourage me from developing another plugin. I thought you said there was no market for plugins for LW and that it really wasn't worth building one. Scared of the competition? (I'm not. Bring it on. :2guns: )

Dodgy
10-13-2006, 07:08 AM
Can't we all just get along? We're all aiming to make LW a better place.... Since you're working on dynamics Kmaas and Sensei is working on modelling, maybe you should work together from different ends? This would allow you to get it done quicker and then go onto something else.... Like water sysytems for example... Or am I just being silly..... :)

Phil
10-13-2006, 07:09 AM
Honestly I prefer to show videos (there are 4 TrueHair Styler videos for now), instead of line count.. ;)

Where?

It seems slightly odd to try and dissuade kmaas (or indeed anyone other plugin author who might have read your previous posts) from writing LW plugins and then drop comments about TrueHair.... It's not what I would consider proper behaviour.

Phil
10-13-2006, 07:13 AM
Can't we all just get along? We're all aiming to make LW a better place.... Since you're working on dynamics Kmaas and Sensei is working on modelling, maybe you should work together from different ends? This would allow you to get it done quicker and then go onto something else.... Like water sysytems for example... Or am I just being silly..... :)

It seems inappropriate behaviour, to be honest. If all cards had been on the table, noone would have said anything, but given the tone of Sensei's previous posts about developing plugins for LW, kmaas' observation is valid. It caught my eye too.

That said, it would be nice to be able to plug components of these hair systems together in various ways. Hopefully this will indeed be possible.

kmaas
10-13-2006, 07:19 AM
Can't we all just get along? We're all aiming to make LW a better place.... Since you're working on dynamics Kmaas and Sensei is working on modelling, maybe you should work together from different ends? This would allow you to get it done quicker and then go onto something else.... Like water sysytems for example... Or am I just being silly..... :)

Agreed, but...

If we were all aiming to make LW a better place, we'd spend all our time encouraging people to write plugins rather than discouraging advances. A little friendly competition can move things forward quicker and help the LW community better.

tyrot
10-13-2006, 07:43 AM
dear kmaas

we all appreciate hard work and commitment. My money is waiting for you and for your achievements. And beware of competitive market and gates' like plugin writers. Do not lose your focus, at the end the best hair will make it.

Sensei, i hope you will have competitive price. And it would be nice to see you play fair. 90 percent of purchasing decisions (in some cases ) are emotional. Lets say i m in love with MR.Pictrix plugins. If he charges 200 i will pay 200. because i m using so much of his plugins (free-commercial) and simply i cant properly move a thing without them, i m planning to give a share from my every project for supporting his plugins.

Same will be happen for Enki's PIM too. I will share small amount from every job i do with it, and put it into his donation place.

Why? Because honestly i love to support honest pluggers. I hope you will show us some eye candy soon.

So at last we will be delivered from Sas world. I am happy.

I want same competition on a FPRIME killer with GI rendering..

Best

Dodgy
10-13-2006, 08:00 AM
It seems inappropriate behaviour, to be honest. If all cards had been on the table, noone would have said anything, but given the tone of Sensei's previous posts about developing plugins for LW, kmaas' observation is valid. It caught my eye too.

That said, it would be nice to be able to plug components of these hair systems together in various ways. Hopefully this will indeed be possible.

I'm coming from the point of view of someone who writes my own plugins to give back to this community. It seems such a waste that time and effort should be driven into duplicating things unnecessarily when there's other tasks could be met with two good programmers..

GraphXs
10-13-2006, 08:18 AM
I can't get the movie to work, it just gives me a .html page with a bunch of text mess.

Sensei
10-13-2006, 08:29 AM
It seems inappropriate behaviour, to be honest. If all cards had been on the table, noone would have said anything, but given the tone of Sensei's previous posts about developing plugins for LW, kmaas' observation is valid. It caught my eye too.

That my answer was slightly taken out of context.. At that time kmaas didn't decide yet which plug-in to start writing and said "1) hair 2) poser importer 3) skin shader. which one make, which will bring the most money".. So I answered "if you want to develop LW plug-ins JUST for money better do something else".. It depends on what money kmaas imagine.. between 0-10,000 usd, 10000-100,000 or more... and I can assure you from my experience that options 2) and 3) never would go outside of 1st range... Then if you're living in USA and spend 6 months writing something for 10k, and getting 1666 usd per month, are you satisfied?

Hair system is different story from options 2) and 3).. at least was, to the moment when there was just Sas.. ;)

kmaas
10-13-2006, 08:45 AM
I can't get the movie to work, it just gives me a .html page with a bunch of text mess.

Hey, thanks for catching that! Try this link instead:
http://www.adjustedlife.com/dynamics.php

kmaas
10-13-2006, 09:02 AM
That my answer was slightly taken out of context.. At that time kmaas didn't decide yet which plug-in to start writing and said "1) hair 2) poser importer 3) skin shader. which one make, which will bring the most money".. So I answered "if you want to develop LW plug-ins JUST for money better do something else".. It depends on what money kmaas imagine.. between 0-10,000 usd, 10000-100,000 or more... and I can assure you from my experience that options 2) and 3) never would go outside of 1st range... Then if you're living in USA and spend 6 months writing something for 10k, and getting 1666 usd per month, are you satisfied?

Hair system is different story from options 2) and 3).. at least was, to the moment when there was just Sas.. ;)

Well, if that's the case, I apologize. It's easy to misinterpret things on the internet where it's harder to tell the tone of a person's messages. I'm sorry for taking it wrong.

And, yes, I'd be satisfied with $1666/month. For that matter, I'd be satisfied with you making the money off of it. I hope you do well with yours. I just want to see the problem fixed. It doesn't really matter how it gets fixed or who fixes it, but someone needed to take some steps to get it there.

mav3rick
10-13-2006, 09:33 AM
all i can say.. it really took quiet some time for 3rd party guys decide to fill out gap in hair solution for lw.... i dont get all thsi mes hapening.. there is so much other things in lw that need to be delivered.... but... i must say i am more than excited to see things are moving and i really look forward to best hair solution out there... i just cant get over it that 3dsmax or cinema 4d has quiet easy and complete solutions.. at least they have somethin that work completly..... worley kinda had monopol on hair sytems in lw and since he feel powerfull i have feeling he keep us on the sun until we burnout...... and than he show us new stuff. honestly i think he earn very much money out of his plugins and i dont understand why he dont take more programmers on his back to give us new solutions faster...... i felt like i have to buy every of his plugins just cause noone else was able to compete his quality and features and i really hope this will change for good.... compete is fine as long 3rd party guys care to bring ultimate most intuitive solutions.. best one will win and earn our money..... and yes i dont care if i need to pay another 500-600 $ for hair solution as long it works the way it should work..

WilliamVaughan
10-14-2006, 03:53 PM
I posted a bit of information and a video that some of you might find informative. I'll keep the thread updated as I discover more from using teh tools:

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14768

Phil
10-14-2006, 04:38 PM
Another day, another update. The Layout plugin was having trouble due to interaction with the set polygon limit in Layout. Build 516 surfaced today to fix that.

This is the kind of developer that does LW proud!

UnCommonGrafx
10-14-2006, 05:14 PM
Reminiscent of joe...
This is looking good. Glad to see/know that three of these puppys will be available to LW. Four if we count the venerable Sas but no showing/stating of such styling capabilities.

'Bout time for such love. Now to make more money to afford/support them all.

Mr. / here

T-Light
10-14-2006, 06:33 PM
Phil -

Build 516 surfaced today to fix that
I've had some issues this week with that bug, tried every which way to break the latest fix and I can't :)
Job well done :thumbsup:

UnCommonGrafx
10-14-2006, 07:05 PM
Kmaas,
How much do you THINK you will charge for your plugin?


As the Fairy Supporter of LW Plugins I want to know what I need to put in for your tool. So far, I need to get up off $750.00 for the three of you. As I already own Sas, that's not an issue. What is the issue is that I want to support those who support LW.

I greatly appreciate all of your efforts. Money talks; Bull$hit walks.

T-Light
10-14-2006, 07:20 PM
Proton -

I'll keep the thread updated as I discover more from using teh tools
Nice vid, how do you use FF, record a tutorial AND play accoustic guitar at the same time? surely that's just showing off :D

Anyone who doesn't have FF ought to take a look at that vid, it shows a lot of the power of the modeler plugin :).

Puguglybonehead
10-14-2006, 11:39 PM
Well, after seeing that demo clip that Proton posted at SpinQuad, I think I'm pretty much sold. Just as soon as a Mac version is available.

Phil
10-15-2006, 03:03 AM
An undocumented feature in the Modeler tool. Double click on the root of any guide and you'l see a coloured circle appear for the interpolation type. The usage is as below, taken from one of Jon's replies:

--

Those are the interpolation type modes
//sharp wide 0
//interpolate wide 1
//radius sharp 2
//radius sharp w/fx 3
//radius interp 4
//radius interp w/fx 5
//bundled 6
the circle is the sphere of radius. there is a handle to change it.

sharp - interpolation is one or the other of 2 closest guide
interpolate above

radius affected versions of above
with and w/o interpolation

bundle fibers into center
--

gjjackson
10-15-2006, 10:23 AM
Has anyone gotten dynamics to work.

WilliamVaughan
10-15-2006, 10:34 AM
I've gotten ClothFX to work on my Guides and render with FF. I will post steps in a few.

WilliamVaughan
10-15-2006, 12:28 PM
Here are the steps that work for me:

http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?p=157502#post157502

lw3d23
10-15-2006, 01:31 PM
I really hope Mr. Worley is just working on FPrime/Node pipeline. FiberF,TureArt, and Kmaas seem to be creating the tools we will want for hair creation.:thumbsup:


TrueHair tools r look'n :D


how about a decent skin shader? anyone wants to give it a try;D

T-Light
10-15-2006, 06:53 PM
Quick pic of what I've been up too.
Did I mention I LOVE this plugin :D :thumbsup:

ps Cheers Proton, I'd just written to Jon this afternoon to see if clothFX worked with FF :thumbsup:

Pic's are Kappa SSS + Area Light + 30% Background Radiosity + FF IV (with 30% single fill light for hair)

Sensei
10-15-2006, 07:23 PM
It looks awesome T-Light! You're great artist.. :) Can you tell us what is render time of single frame (and resolution used) ? It would be nice to see your tests with reflective surface in the back and some background to see shadows too.. Do you used Fiber Filter pixel filter or there is volumetric equivalent? Does it support other camera types than Classic? (volumetric would rather natively support it, but pixel filter cannot and must be properly written)

tyrot
10-15-2006, 07:45 PM
dear T-Light

great work...Keep us posting...with more of your works..

best

T-Light
10-15-2006, 08:01 PM
Hi Sensei, than you very much :)

Iv'e only tested with Classic and perspective cameras, both render fine with the FF pixel filter. I haven't tried rendering with the other cameras yet.
The perspective camera was used with the FF pixel filter for these images.
The skin on it's own at this resolution with the settings above would render in about six minutes.
The hair on it's own with the settings above (and sss turned off on the model)would take about 2-3 minutes.
Unfortunately, when the two are placed together as in these images, the volumetric shadows cast by fiber factory are scattered into the kappa nodes. which although is a VERY good thing as it's exactly what you'd want, it increases render time. Normaly when I render the heads I set them onto three pass gaussian with adaptive sampling on. When your using FF, I'm not sure if it passes all the volumetric data back into kappa on the second and third passes or if it's something to do with pixel filters automatically forcing the entire image to be redrawn on subsequent passes. Either way a single pass on my machine takes about 15-20 minutes and an entire frame takes about 50 minutes.

If I'd placed a background in for shadows they would have rendered fine, but I'm not sure about reflection, I did a quick test the other day and there was a small number of non rendered blocks in the reflection. When I can get a scene together I'll be posting it to Jon for fixing. :)

T-Light
10-15-2006, 08:03 PM
Wayhey, cheers Tyrot, will do :)

Sensei
10-15-2006, 08:13 PM
The perspective camera was used with the FF pixel filter for these images.

IIRC perspective camera with default settings matches classic camera perfectly (from math POV).. But change settings a little and/or use f.e. Orthographic camera.. That's what I was interested the most.. You don't have to add all great looking effects to check this.. ;)

T-Light
10-15-2006, 08:23 PM
Ah OK, perspective camera isn't at default for the images, the lens focal length is about 80mm. I just checked the orthographic camera and no, it doesn't work. Is it supposed to?

Sensei
10-15-2006, 08:33 PM
In that case custom camera types are not supported yet in Fiber Factory IV, and they're threated as Classic camera..

Phil
10-16-2006, 03:21 AM
Quick pic of what I've been up too.
Did I mention I LOVE this plugin :D :thumbsup:

ps Cheers Proton, I'd just written to Jon this afternoon to see if clothFX worked with FF :thumbsup:

Pic's are Kappa SSS + Area Light + 30% Background Radiosity + FF IV (with 30% single fill light for hair)

I'm loving FF too. Great fun; Proton's video let me in on a couple of things I was overlooking.

I had tried dynamics, but the calculation time can be a little painful for dense guides. I'm mulling over using collision spheres for Layout, to ease things, and also in the styling tool. Much like Shave used to use - it may well speed things up in non-critical cases and ease styling as well. Using bone chains might also be an option.
I'm also planning to push Jon some content by Wednesday for him to play with / upload.

Jon is planning to push out another update soon to fix the collision handling in the style tool. It currently evaluates only the first collision and ignores it for the rest of the chain. This causes problems with long hair, especially around ears :)

He has some very big plans in mind for later FF updates, but won't let me tell anyone ;)

SplineGod
10-16-2006, 03:28 AM
try using a lower rez cloth mesh t hat the guides are metalinked to.

zapper1998
10-16-2006, 03:42 AM
Will FF be upgraded, so we could use it in 64 Bit LW ?????

Phil
10-16-2006, 04:48 AM
Yep. Mac and 64 bit versions are due to follow soon. There are also plans for a demo version.

kmaas
10-16-2006, 06:05 AM
Kmaas,
How much do you THINK you will charge for your plugin?

I asked everyone on the other thread what they thought something like this would be worth, and I got a bunch of responses around the $200 range. So, most likely somewhere around there.

Oh, and I've got some new updates on the dynamics system I'll be able to show you folks, probably tonight after work. I deleted the attachments I posted earlier to free up some space.

T-Light: Looks great! The skin looks really nice. Could we see the nodes (or are they in the SSS Test thread)?

zapper1998
10-16-2006, 06:13 AM
ok you mentioned the network rendering, will i be able to use it with screamernet??


I am buying it right now...........yahh

Phil
10-16-2006, 06:31 AM
Not immediately. The current version has no screamernet support; this is stated on the web site. In principal, this comes from the fact that Jon hasn't tested it yet. I haven't tried it yet, either, but the license control will probably cause problems (you cannot add the plugins to LW without the authorisation code). Since release, Jon's been kept very busy, I think :)

Personal licenses will have a limited (i.e. less than 999 nodes) screamernet implementation. The exact details have not been provided, though.

T-Light
10-16-2006, 10:05 AM
Phil -

He has some very big plans in mind for later FF updates, but won't let me tell anyone
Oh go on, you KNOW you want too :devil:

Kmaas -

Could we see the nodes (or are they in the SSS Test thread)?
I don't think I've posted nodes there in a while, although the current setup isn't very different from one I posted some weeks ago. Essentally there's two kappa nodes, a deep red and veiny map into foreward scattering and a pale skin map into backward scattering. The two nodes are mixed together with 'add' then mixed again with 'add' and oren nayar. That little lot is connected to diffuse. Another two grey scale maps are connected to specular and bump, and that's it. The big difference between my model and what most of the guys are doing over on the SSS thread is they're either using omega nodes or kappa on double sided. I tried the double sided approach and it didn't give me anything like the look I was getting with single sided and a low poly skull object inside the head. This has since been improved to include semi-transparent cartilage for the nose. :)

Phil
10-16-2006, 10:20 AM
Phil -

Oh go on, you KNOW you want too :devil:


I do, but that would spoil the surprise :D