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kmaas
09-23-2006, 08:02 AM
Hi all,

I'm planning out some new plugins, and I'd like to know your opinions on them:

1. A hair/fur plugin, with dynamic abililty and styling, along with volumetric raytracing for accurate reflections/refractions.
2. A Poser model importer that not only brings in the geometry, but also preserves the weight maps so joints look right.
3. A skin shading node that renders fast and only needs one node (instead of a huge nodal setup).

They're kind of ambitious, so don't expect them soon, but I'm in the planning/prioritization stage, so I need your help. What I'd like to know is, if I built these, which one(s) would you want first, what features would you look for, which ones would you buy, and how much would you feel comfortable paying?

Thanks!

- kmaas

Sensei
09-23-2006, 08:22 AM
From the time spend on development point of view skin node is the easiest fastest to made (1-4 weeks to code), then poser importer (a few weeks), then hair/fur, which would be real nightmare to code (a few months).. at least volumetric part.. If you're quick and good in programming of course..

KillMe
09-23-2006, 11:07 AM
1 would be rather nice but i imagine it would be quite difficult to produce

UnCommonGrafx
09-23-2006, 11:43 AM
If 3 has automatic pore creation and/or enhancement, I would buy it.
For 2, I think Daz has tool for it and are owned by those in need.
If you could do number one, with editable spline guides ala Shave and a haircut in layout (or separate window), then you could have my money.
Of course, voulumetrics, reflections in mirrors, all the shortcomings of our present tools must be overcome, as well.

He11, I'd pay for just the little separate window if it had editable splines that were:
1. Saveable and editable anytime later;
2. Auto-create root and 2pt polys for use with sas
3. Allowed us all the modelling tools of hide, zoom, translate, scale, etc.

I have it here in Shave and a Haircut but it's not in LW. Yet, others can't buy it. That's where the market is at this juncture for the short term. Long term, Neverko's statement is apt.

kmaas
09-23-2006, 01:11 PM
Sensei: I know it's ambitious, but I am a pretty fast coder with a good deal of education in game programming (rendering in realtime). So I'm really just looking for what people want, what they'd like to see first, and how much they'd be willing to pay.

So far, it doesn't sound like there's much enthusiasm for #2. So, between #1 and #3, which one would be more important to you, since both will require a great deal of R&D to get working well?

Sensei
09-23-2006, 01:44 PM
Sensei: I know it's ambitious, but I am a pretty fast coder with a good deal of education in game programming (rendering in realtime).

Experience with rendering in real-time would help you with image-filter/pixel-filter and SasQuatch clone.. But volumetrics are custom ray-tracers inside LW renderer where you have to reproduce the whole graph tree like KD-tree and searching where ray passed by LW crossed your virtual geometry..

BTW, what plug-ins you did for LightWave so far?


So I'm really just looking for what people want, what they'd like to see first, and how much they'd be willing to pay.


If you're just looking for money in LW community, you're wasting your time TBH.. If you're lucky you will have 100 copies sold..


So far, it doesn't sound like there's much enthusiasm for #2. So, between #1 and #3, which one would be more important to you, since both will require a great deal of R&D to get working well?

TBH I don't think so #3 can bring *any* money, see that the all nodes that are made by 3rd party developers are free.. Except InfiniMap node and IFW.. Nodes/shaders/procedural PACKAGE might bring money, but not a single skin shader.. IFW2 has 16 nodes and costs 100$..

Phil
09-23-2006, 01:53 PM
I'd pay for something that would replace the godawful bone system in Layout. It's just so slow. Since that's not on offer, I'd be interested in either 1 or 3. I'm waiting to see how Fiber Factory turns out before I utterly commit to it, so to get my money, number 3 is probably less risky.

Note that there has also been work on this kind of thing under the MakeHuman project, for renderman systems : http://www.dedalo-3d.com/ You may be able to use their research as a base :)

hrgiger
09-23-2006, 01:57 PM
Hair plug-in that you sell for less then Sas. Light a fire under Worley's butt for a version 2.

Verlon
09-23-2006, 05:05 PM
I would definintely be interested in 1.

My interest in the pretty much runs in the order you listed them. As Robert described, it would have to overcome the limits of SaS. Preferably easy to style and MUST reflect and refract.

Working with FPrime would be a plus in the sales department if you could manage that, though it seems unlikely unless something radical happens outside your control. But, I figured I would mention it in case the opportunity arises.

cresshead
09-23-2006, 05:17 PM
i'd say the hair plugin....

make it around $199 to compete with shave on cinema4d

you need combable hair guides and cutters and guides to splines and splies to guides....have a look at how 3dsmax handle it's hair....go to here and look at the video....

http://download.autodesk.com/media/3dsmax/hair_max8_380k.mov

http://download.autodesk.com/global/3dsmax/featureVideos/max9_hair_large.mov

make your hair like that and you'll be a lightwave hero!

Wickster
09-23-2006, 05:29 PM
count me in for the hair plugin too.

Earl
09-23-2006, 05:45 PM
I'm interested in 1 and 3. And if they're good enough, I'm more than willing to drop some cash on them.

Considering the LW userbase, I think a decent hair/fur plugin could be a potential gold mine. But it would have to best Worley's efforts, which is no easy task, of course.

wp_capozzi
09-23-2006, 06:02 PM
I still attempt to use Shave for Lightwave, so I would be quite happy with something to replace it that works. A price of $199 would be in my range. Just yesterday I was looking through my copy of Advanced Renderman book trying to understand if Delayed Read-Archive and Procedural Primative DSO would have a relationship to anything in Lightwave to create dynamically loaded hair. I think Shave works something like that. It was so close except for matching lights and shadows in LW7.5, there was even a volumetric version. I would love to see a solid New version of Shave, Sas would be great too but it is out of my price range. If there were a replacement that did the job at todays cgi hair standards, that would be great.

I have two Poser to Lightwave plugins, don't use them much at all except on occassion. The one from Greenbriar and Poser Pro Pack. The only thing that would catch my attention in that area is a two way plugin that carries all bones, weightmaps, morphs, and surface attributes.

A fast skin shader would be nice, but as mentioned before, it might not be very sellable. If it were full featured and gave extremely good results, and/or rendered fast, it might be enough to put a price on it. Maybe it would be a good bonus to go along with a hair plugin. Some sort of skin and hair combo shader that takes hairline, pores, skin oil, depth, density and veins into account is something I've never seen before.

Those are some of my thoughts. Availability of more good plugins is always a positive. I would encourage you to go ahead and make something great!

Best regards,
Bill C.
Dedicated Digital

Rich
09-23-2006, 06:28 PM
I vote for #1 :thumbsup:

kmaas
09-23-2006, 06:41 PM
...The only thing that would catch my attention in that area is a two way plugin that carries all bones, weightmaps, morphs, and surface attributes...

Just so you know, the reason I started this thread is because I found a way to carry weight maps from Poser to Lightwave so you would have fully rigged and ready-to-animate models in Lightwave, so I thought I'd see if people were interested. Don't know if that answers your question, but that's basically what it would do.

So, you could use, for example, the DAZ models (if you wanted) in Lightwave, with the ability to modify the models, animate, and render them fully in Lightwave without having to touch Poser.

kmaas
09-23-2006, 06:52 PM
Experience with rendering in real-time would help you with image-filter/pixel-filter and SasQuatch clone.. But volumetrics are custom ray-tracers inside LW renderer where you have to reproduce the whole graph tree like KD-tree and searching where ray passed by LW crossed your virtual geometry..

Ah, but games use scene graphs all the time. BSP/kD trees have been around for years, along with a lot of other techniques that can be even faster if applied in the right context. Games do raytracing all the time (mostly for physics/collision detection).

This isn't a question of whether I can do it or not - it's a question of whether there's enough interest in it to make it worth doing.

kmaas
09-23-2006, 06:54 PM
...Maybe it would be a good bonus to go along with a hair plugin...

Great idea! If there's enough interest to build them both, I may just do that!

kmaas
09-23-2006, 06:56 PM
OK, so if I were to do a hair/fur plugin for $199, and it gave good results, would you buy it and what would you use it for (hobbist, professional, still, animation, people, animals, etc.)?

lilrayray77
09-23-2006, 07:37 PM
would you have perhaps, a watered down/non commercial use, free version?

d1wojo
09-23-2006, 08:14 PM
I had to talk about this. I don't say to much but I would use 1 and 3. If you have the time something like motion builder would be nice. How would it be used most likely for all of the above that you mentioned. I'm just starting to be paid and it has been a lot of freebie work along the way.

lwaddict
09-23-2006, 09:09 PM
I'd really like a solid Poser two way plug in...
but...
if I were you and in for the money,
I'd go with the hair system since it's a very hot topic right now.

How to make some fast cash making plugins for Lightwave...

1.) Hair system

2.) Liquid system under 1000 dollars.

3.) FPrime competitor, third only because it'd be a workout to get the worshippers to switchover regardless of their anger right now.

But I'd still like a Poser plug...
think I go with that one mentioned earlier for now.
I've got the Poser Pro pack but it's not entirely functional with the latest versions of Lightwave.

UnCommonGrafx
09-23-2006, 09:21 PM
Make the poser plugin for money in the short;
Make the skin TEXTURE so fprime can use it and give it away for free to drive folks to your site;
Spend the rest of your time doing something for hair.

Make sure that skin texture can create pores, though. Personal request. ;)

kmaas
09-23-2006, 09:40 PM
A couple more questions:
I know I can do fur that looks good, renders very quickly, and can be adapted to volumetrics for full raytracing. The question is, for hair and fur, is speed a bigger concern, or quality? And which would you be more likely to use, hair or fur?

UnCommonGrafx
09-23-2006, 09:50 PM
STYLING is of the utmost importance. Yeah, yeah, and then comes quality then comes speed. If I have to do frikkin splines and 2pt polys like now, you won't have a prayer. At least for my money.

Earl
09-23-2006, 10:23 PM
I think hair for characters, along with styling, is what most of us need the most in LW. I would definitely go for a $200 hair/fur/skin plugin set, if the results were there. Features important to me are:
- ways to preview the hair (in either OpenGL or FPrime)
- the ability to control the quality/speed ratio with ease, such that fast previews can be made, but when doing a final render I can crank up the settings for ultimate quality.
- easy styling tools
- easy animation or tie-ins to dynamics

And in all honesty, if all of those pieces were worked in intelligently, I would be willing to pay more than $200.

connerh
09-23-2006, 10:45 PM
A smart styling system would be a godsend, but, if needed, that could come after the main release. You'd also need to implement a smart dynamics core into the plugin (ie, interpolation not based on distance but some form of internal collision algorithm). If you executed both of these aspects well, along with having the hair be volumetric, I would most definately purchase from you.

Puguglybonehead
09-23-2006, 11:15 PM
I'll add my voice to the majority here. Option 1, the Hair plugin, would be first on my list by a longshot. I agree that a user-friendly styling toolset (like the new Hair plugin for Cinema 4D) would be a big plus, dynamics is a must (even if it can use Cloth FX at least) and FPrime compatibility would be nice too. $200 would be a bargain, if you could deliver on all these features. Heck, under $300 would still be decent, IMO.

Option 3, the skin-shader, might be neat, but not a huge priority for me.

Option 2, Poser import, doesn't really interest me. I don't use their models.

ufo3d
09-23-2006, 11:48 PM
if you have ability to make a skin shader as good as mental ray's fast skin, or better, I believe many ppl will pay for that. if you can implement more advanced technique such as ""Light Diffusion in Multi-Layered Translucent Materials" by henrik, don't worry, our money is ready and you will be famous soon as worley and masterzap. of course it depends the quality and speed, worley's g2 offers skin shading and sss, but the quality is crap, it deos not like skin at all.

kmaas
09-24-2006, 06:35 AM
OpenGL preview would most likely be possible for at least fur (possibly hair), depending on the SDK's support for display plugins, with the technique I'd be using. I'd have to agree dynamics would be a must for both hair and fur, and this would be one of my top priorities. Also, I'm looking at a technique that wouldn't need antialiasing in most situations and would have the nice specular shine you get with real hair.

For the skin shading, I should be able to implement just about any technique, since I'd be writing it from scratch. So, yes, I would think I could match (or better) MR's FastSkin, although this is something I've never done and have only studied a little, so it may take me a while to get it right.

That's basically what I'm thinking. What other features are important to you?

Verlon
09-24-2006, 07:05 AM
for $199, I am on board for a good hair tool. I could just about quote Robert Wilson for my desires in this regard. Can you have it out by Christmas? :D

The ability to create useful styles (including coloring) is of utmost importance. Quality in both still and animation comes next, and speed comes third.

The poser 2 way plugin would be interesting (depends on the price point and how it compares to greenbriar).

The skin? Well, depnds on what it looks like and how much you're asking.

KillMe
09-24-2006, 07:06 AM
hair for $199 seems very reasonable so yeah i'd buy that - personally would be mostly hobby useage maybe use it a little commerically if it can do grass nicely too

Mercuryrex
09-24-2006, 07:53 AM
OpenGL preview would most likely be possible for at least fur (possibly hair), depending on the SDK's support for display plugins, with the technique I'd be using. I'd have to agree dynamics would be a must for both hair and fur, and this would be one of my top priorities. Also, I'm looking at a technique that wouldn't need antialiasing in most situations and would have the nice specular shine you get with real hair.

For the skin shading, I should be able to implement just about any technique, since I'd be writing it from scratch. So, yes, I would think I could match (or better) MR's FastSkin, although this is something I've never done and have only studied a little, so it may take me a while to get it right.

That's basically what I'm thinking. What other features are important to you?

Hi, I think you'd find there is a big demand for a good new hair plugin with LW users. So I guess that would probably end up being your first priority.

But if you feel you could better MR's FastSkin, then I think that would definitely be your next project after the hair plugin. That would be excellent.
You could do a bit of planning and research for the skin shader whilst you're working on the hair plugin.

Both sound good to me, and I for one really appreciate you being prepared to take these projects on.

:)

Bog
09-24-2006, 08:29 AM
I'd spring $200 for a better hair solution, no question about it.

Decent styling tools, dynamics, raytracing and some rapid-preview stuff?

Please. Take my money. *waves wad*

Phil
09-24-2006, 08:43 AM
Yep. Pitch a hair solution at around the same price point as Fiber Factory, or less and you'll have a winner. If you are able to whip up the equivalent of Shave and a Haircut, you'll also likely be able to charge significantly more and get customers.

Note that, for a quiet life, you'll need Win32, Win64 and OSX versions ;)

gareee
09-24-2006, 09:18 AM
I'd be interested in hair, and also interested in the poser import. The biggest problem will be importing poser ERC controls so they still work right.

You can already use daz studio (free) to import poser content into bryce, Vue 6 imports poser content with all the poser dials intact, and carerra 5 pro imports poser content however the erc dial (like easypose) are broken.

So there's obviously getting to be a bigger market for the vast aray of low cost poser content available.

kmaas
09-24-2006, 10:02 AM
Note that, for a quiet life, you'll need Win32, Win64 and OSX versions ;)

That's another part of the reason for checking for interest in this. I don't have Win64 or OSX, which means to be able to do those, I'd have to have enough interest to buy computers to compile them on. It's something I'd very much like to do, but I need to know there's some solid interest in it, and I don't really have the spare cash to buy them right now. Rest assured, though, when I write these, I'll try to keep them as portable as possible. :thumbsup:

KillMe
09-24-2006, 12:15 PM
sure you could get someone to compile it for a mac without you having to buy a mac yourself - or i suppose you could pic up a mini mac quite cheaply if all else fails - or liek the man said...............

Titus
09-24-2006, 12:48 PM
For starters, I think sasquatch is an uncomplete plugin because it needs a styling tool, hairspray is a good step but not enough. Maybe you can consider doing this styling tool.

shadersrjj
09-24-2006, 01:16 PM
> IFW2 has 16 nodes and costs 100

Sorry to butt-in, but IFW2 Nodal has 219 different nodes.

RJJ

T-Light
09-24-2006, 01:52 PM
I'd go for skin 1st, if only because there isn't any competition. With hair I'd leave it a week or so and see what Fiber Factory's really like. The quality of each individual hair is superb and you can bet there'll be finished artwork going on the site that will blow the current stuff away.

Good luck to you whatever you decide :)

By the way, if you're looking at skin you could do worse than take a look at this link, it's apparently the basis of the code for the mr fastskin shader (source included).

http://animus.brinkster.net/stuff/plg_diffusion/plg_diffusion.html

Thomas M.
09-24-2006, 02:25 PM
That's something I really don't get. From the amount of nodes dp delivers these days I wonder why all people try to create skin with Omega or Kappa? Shouldn't it be pretty easy for a coder with a bit of experience to transfer the concept of a skin shader to a node? There are so many papers out there with the right formulas, shouldn't be that tough. Anyway, what about a Fresnel node? I'm sick of transfering my excel sheet calculations into gradients all the time. Not a fake fresnel, just one with the real formulas.

Anyway, a skin shader would be a big help.

Cheers
Thomas

3dworks
09-24-2006, 02:49 PM
don't forget that there's already a pretty well working poser - LW plugin here:

http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/3D/

markus

wp_capozzi
09-24-2006, 03:41 PM
At one time maybe 5 years ago, before Shave for Lightwave development was completely dropped, a Shave SDK was available. I think Joe Alter was interested in licensing out the technology or having someone else work on software specific versions. I think it is the same thing all of the other software versions are based on. I have no idea where that stands these days for Lightwave, but maybe redeveloping a version of Shave for Lightwave out of those ashes would be a possibility. It would be faster than starting from scratch. I might even still have that SDK archived here someplace.

As a side note, this thread and another one inspired me to plug Shave back in and see what happens with LW9, and I am getting some fairly decent results with both regular and volumetric versions. If the old Shave were fixed up with a new interface and a few working parts, it would be seriously nice.

Just a thought.
Best regards,
Bill C.

UnCommonGrafx
09-24-2006, 03:47 PM
Which .p are you using, i.e., which version?

wp_capozzi
09-24-2006, 04:55 PM
I was just getting some renders together to post over in the other thread about Shave. Best results so far are with 129l exe 129m.p, 133e exe and p, X01a exe and p, and X03o exe and shavetracer65d.p. I will post some results over in the other thread when I get a chance.

Best regards,
Bill C.

UnCommonGrafx
09-24-2006, 05:26 PM
Please do, Bill.

I'm looking through the archives I have for shave and am unsure as to which numbers those are outside of the ShaveTracer one.
(Someone sent me an archive of all they had before they left the scene such that I thought I had them all.)
Gonna have to try the tracer one. Is it as painfully slow as I imagine? ;)

kmaas
09-24-2006, 05:44 PM
don't forget that there's already a pretty well working poser - LW plugin here:

If I understand it correctly, it doesn't preserve the imported model's weight maps, it only simulates them. I'm not entirely sure if this is correct, as I don't have this plugin, but the method I would implement would actually preserve the weight maps with almost perfect accuracy. Don't know if that helps clear up any confusion on the subject.

kmaas
09-24-2006, 05:46 PM
Also, don't know if this is important to anyone, but the hair plugin would most likely incorcorate very smooth motion blur into the algorithm (as a configurable option), thereby reducing the number of antialiasing passes needed to render good results with moving hair.

Titus
09-24-2006, 07:09 PM
At one time maybe 5 years ago, before Shave for Lightwave development was completely dropped, a Shave SDK was available. I think Joe Alter was interested in licensing out the technology or having someone else work on software specific versions

Joe Alter posted a job offer 2 or 3 years ago at the Yahoo LW plugin group looking for a LW programmer. I can guess he didnīt got positive reactions.

RedBull
09-24-2006, 07:11 PM
My 0.2 cents..

Skin Shaders are everywhere, fake SSS, real SSS, there is already at least 3 free shaders for this purpose, and several more commercial.
I also doubt if a "single purpose shader" is worth selling commercially.
Hikari, Fastskin, TB-Fakeskin, Chanlum, (i think Nodal has one) already.

In terms of Hair, it may be worth looking at making some styling tools,
that could be used with your own or another hair program, like Sas, Shave or FF4. This way you would be complementing and not competing for sales.

I'd like to vote for a hair system, but until i could see samples or see it working, it's hard to say i would buy it..... A simple hair system isn't too hard to make, but getting the fibres looking better than what's already available is no easy task... And then there is the SDK to wrestle with.

Sasquatch is really fast and simple to use and setup, unless others can make tools that extend or improve on it's specific weaknessess, i'm not sure it's a hugely sellable item. Because Sas, FF4 and maybe Sas2 will obviously have already penetrated the market... Good Luck though.

UnCommonGrafx
09-24-2006, 07:16 PM
Yeah,
I wrote to a few of the lw programming luminaire to go after it but to no avail. I even asked NewTek to take him up on it...

Still bummed, particularly seeing what he's done and doing with the code to date.

Gosh, that is one DEAD horse I keep kicking. Too bad it keeps trying to get up. lol I guess I couldn't kick if it didn't, eh...


Joe Alter posted a job offer 2 or 3 years ago at the Yahoo LW plugin group looking for a LW programmer. I can guess he didnīt got positive reactions.

kmaas
09-24-2006, 07:26 PM
Another question:

lwaddict mentioned a liquid system as a request. This is something else I feel I could write. How much of a demand is there for this?

RedBull
09-24-2006, 08:03 PM
Another question:

lwaddict mentioned a liquid system as a request. This is something else I feel I could write. How much of a demand is there for this?

I would think a good LBM grid solver for LW has commercial potential...
Somewhere around the GLU3D level.

Blenders implentation is great, but could still be improved on a couple of areas,
the ability to mix multiple fluids together for example is something i'd like.
But again with free alternatives like Blender, as long as it's comparable on features and functions.

T-Light
09-24-2006, 08:05 PM
Liquid system priced along the lines as dynamite would SELL. You'd have two competitors, RealFlow and Blender (Some are calling blender the best free plugin for LW). Blender has some resolution issues and realflow costs many thousands.

wp_capozzi
09-24-2006, 08:24 PM
Fluid, steam, smoke, fog, and clouds are all things I would like to see more of as relatively easy to use plugins. Something with good interaction, dynamic properties, and render speed. There was something starting to come out a couple years ago called 'Swell', maybe it was a paper or demonstration at Siggraph. It was realtime cloud software. Not sure whatever happened to it. I like Hypervoxels, Dynamite, and Blender. Anything to make life, or at least workflow easier is a good thing.

-Bill C.

UnCommonGrafx
09-24-2006, 08:25 PM
Ok, Fluids,
At what cost, though? At the price points being discussed here, you would either be proven a genius, a fool or RealFlow as REALLY over-priced.
There is also the ODE physics engine to put into this "Dream Plugs for LW" wish list.
Oh, and Collada, too. Heck, if you can do any of this, get to programming. ;_) All this dreamin' is putting a knot in my stomach with the thought that we may not see any of it for many summers to come...

kmaas
09-24-2006, 08:39 PM
Ok, Fluids,
At what cost, though? At the price points being discussed here, you would either be proven a genius, a fool or RealFlow as REALLY over-priced.
There is also the ODE physics engine to put into this "Dream Plugs for LW" wish list.

Improving on LW's dynamics engine (both hard and soft body) is outside the range of my knowledge and would take me a TON of time for me to implement.


Oh, and Collada, too. Heck, if you can do any of this, get to programming. ;_) All this dreamin' is putting a knot in my stomach with the thought that we may not see any of it for many summers to come...

Don't know much about Collada either, but everything I mentioned I could most certainly do, given enough interest, which I think at this point there is. It will take me a while, but I've already started working on the hair plugin. So, it looks like a new hair plugin is on the way! :thumbsup:

If fluid simulation would be more helpful to everyone though, please tell me, as I can probably work on both at the same time.

Any suggestions are VERY welcome though on anything mentioned though - it's much easier to change now then when I've got it done.

MicroMouse
09-24-2006, 10:16 PM
Don't know much about Collada either,

Go here
http://www.khronos.org/collada/
for all the information on collada

Wayne

Phil
09-24-2006, 11:55 PM
Yeah,
I wrote to a few of the lw programming luminaire to go after it but to no avail. I even asked NewTek to take him up on it...

Still bummed, particularly seeing what he's done and doing with the code to date.

Gosh, that is one DEAD horse I keep kicking. Too bad it keeps trying to get up. lol I guess I couldn't kick if it didn't, eh...

Most of Joe's reluctance also seems to come from his rather dim view of the community. Given that most seem to place the blame at NewTek's door, this seems strange, but from what I can tell, he's really not interested.

Probably the only thing that could happen would be for NewTek to put on a brave face and approach him directly about licensing his engine, just like almost all of their competitors have done. Even then, it's 50-50 whether he'd agree. NewTek may also not want to upset Worley. This is definitely the downside of relying on 3rd party vendors to flesh out your product.

kmacphail
09-24-2006, 11:59 PM
There is also the ODE physics engine to put into this "Dream Plugs for LW" wish list.


If you haven't seen ODEfL yet, check out the thread...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24732&page=1

-K

Phil
09-25-2006, 12:03 AM
As said earlier, you might be best waiting until Fiber Factory ships this week. If it's as good, or at least promising, as I hope, then you might decide to pick up one of the other ideas.

Fluids would certainly be interesting, for example, but I'd also like to see volumetric caustics support in LW. LW's own volumetrics seem unable to deal with this and NewTek don't seem to have plans to introduce it any time soon, so that might be interesting. Combined with chromatic abberration, this would be really nice.

You could also do worse than try to recreate Surpasses, especially since the vendor has terminated his interest in LW plugins.

sammael
09-25-2006, 05:45 AM
I would definately vote for a hair plugin, I think if you could come up with something good in this area you would make a killing at any price... sasquatch is old and outdated + memory intensive and as previous people have said they seem to be in no hurry with any sort of revolutionary update.
I would love to be able to see a prieview of the hair from within layout.

I would count out a poser plugin because I think most people would prefer to create their own humanoid models than even think about using the dodgy, craply made poser models. I would even go so far as to say that people may not take your other plugins seriously if you did make such a plugin.

A skin shader would be good I guess but LW is already capable of making nice looking skin with a bit of work. I realy do think from what I have read in these forums is that what people are realy crying out for is a professional stable and up to date hair solution.

Sam

ufo3d
09-25-2006, 06:52 AM
probably you are very good at programming, however I think coding something as good as fast skin seems not that easy and fast, otherwise we should see other renderers (vray, modo, final render) offer similar shader, right? how long will you take for coding such shaders and when could you show us some sample images?

kmaas
09-25-2006, 06:57 AM
how long will you take for coding such shaders and when could you show us some sample images?

Couldn't tell you yet - depends on how much time I'm able to devote to this project in the coming months.

T-Light
09-25-2006, 06:58 AM
sammael -

I would love to be able to see a prieview of the hair from within layout.
Fiber Factory does that too :), In fact, I wrote to Jon the other day and asked if FF could work with FPrime, He said that He's a Lightwave purist (No Fprime, No Kray)but, and I quote...

Anything I could do to support fprime I would however
How great is that? Worley's own hair isn't available in FPrime so for another plugin developer to look at supporting it is incredible :)

Here's a screen shot of Fiber Factory IV showing both hair geometry in layout and a rendered view in viper.

oDDity
09-25-2006, 07:28 AM
What are you getting excited about, he basically said it wouldn't support fprime. He didn't want to give you the **** off, so he lightened it a bit. Means nothing though.
I havent' seen any work done in FF that beats anything from 6 year old sasquatch. THat's ont a good sign.

T-Light
09-25-2006, 07:45 AM
Oddity -

I havent' seen any work done in FF that beats anything from 6 year old sasquatch. THat's ont a good sign.
Take a closer look, Sas fibres don't look that smooth. This is a different puppy to sasquatch altogether. As Phil mentioned earlier, a lot of the images on the site are development wip's, there's no finished artwork by the likes of Albee or Aitchison.

Give it time :)

Sensei
09-25-2006, 08:28 AM
T-Light - I agree with you completely.. The latest movies (>=8) start looking very good, much better than front page screen-shots! People, don't look at geometry, look at fur, that's all about.. I really like this dog http://www.binaryartsinc.com/images/dog.mov It has not enough number of hairs on body, but that should be easily tweekable in the settings/weight map..

ufo3d
09-25-2006, 09:10 AM
does sasqautch support hair modelling?;)

http://www.binaryartsinc.com/images/ffiv_ib_01.gif

UnCommonGrafx
09-25-2006, 09:14 AM
Do Show More!

sammael
09-25-2006, 09:53 AM
I must say FF does look promising so far, but competition is what drives growth the more fur/hair solutions the better I say. It should serve to push developers that little bit further with the quality of their products.
Since LW is almost back in the scene as far as an up to date 3D package im hoping more and more 3rd party developers will start taking more notice, look at the vast array of 3rd party plugins for max... pity its a dog to use.

Titus
09-25-2006, 10:01 AM
does sasqautch support hair modelling?;)

Oh, I love rethorical questions! :)

Phil
09-25-2006, 10:06 AM
It seems that, at some point, we'll get the modelling panel in Layout, which will be really interesting. There seems to be quite a lot of control available too:

http://www.binaryartsinc.com/images/head_mixed.jpg

This seems to also answer the question over previews in Layout.

UnCommonGrafx
09-25-2006, 10:13 AM
I've seen it but am ... impatient with its (your?) progress. I am, however, grateful to the (your) efforts toward bringing it to LW. I just wish you had the time and support to make it happen faster.
Your next few steps of the process will be the biggest of all, without a doubt. I'm following it, yes, but again, I am growing more and more impatient to see such things for my (our) beloved tools. My statements aren't a dig, in the least. I am thankful that SOMEONE is giving their attention to such needs.
Thank you.


If you haven't seen ODEfL yet, check out the thread...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24732&page=1

-K

UnCommonGrafx
09-25-2006, 10:16 AM
Splay... Haven't seen that in hair since the end of the shave days...

Time to look again...

UnCommonGrafx
09-25-2006, 10:26 AM
Images that have some kink and frizz would be great. As it is right now, all the images are using straight hair without any randomness.

T-Light
09-25-2006, 10:56 AM
UnCommonGrafx -

Images that have some kink and frizz would be great
It's all in the detail, Have a look at the animation links at the bottom of the page (think it's the second) - I'm guessing LW dynamics on the guides + Frizz city :)

[EDIT] - There's a new thumbnail up on the site, managed to find the full image (posted below) and there's a 'gravity' setting. Maybe the anim above isn't using using LW dynamics at all. That's more tools into the mix then :)

T-Light
09-25-2006, 11:22 AM
Here's another image, It's only a thumbnail on the site at the moment but here's the full pic. Shows more of the settings of FF + the hair showing in layout (+ Viper).

kmaas
09-25-2006, 11:28 AM
Is there anything other than styling, dynamics, realistic rendering, and realtime preview you'd like, or does that pretty much cover the main objectives?

kmaas
09-25-2006, 12:40 PM
I've got a couple of ideas for the hair dynamics that, as far as I know, no commercial program out there will do. However, since they're new things, you'll have to wait until the release. There's a really simple example I can do to demonstrate them too, which will be really cool!

Also, it will certainly do frizz, curls, and wavy hair. That's one thing I'm factoring into the rendering algorithm. Please keep in mind that this is still in the very beginning stages, so if there's something you want to see, please tell me now. Ask and you will more than likely recieve, don't ask and your chances aren't so good. :D

Anyone open to beta-testing when I get to that stage?

Earl
09-25-2006, 01:35 PM
I'd like to see built in wet and dry hair dynamics, including how the hair would look when fully submerged in water.

wp_capozzi
09-25-2006, 01:44 PM
I would be more than glad to beta test.

dballesg
09-25-2006, 02:11 PM
I would like to beta test it to. I can beta test it under XP 32 and 64, and over a renderfarm.

Best regards,
David

UnCommonGrafx
09-25-2006, 02:29 PM
Chuckle,
Beat us off with a stick: I'd happily beta for you... and tell you if it stinks, too, which I think is more valuable than those who won't. ;)

kmaas
09-25-2006, 02:36 PM
Chuckle,
Beat us off with a stick: I'd happily beta for you... and tell you if it stinks, too, which I think is more valuable than those who won't. ;)

Hey, I look at it this way: If I know what a problem is, I can fix it. If I only know the good things, it's a lot harder for me to fix the bad things. :thumbsup:

I guess I know I won't be the only one testing this thing! That's great - I'll make sure I post something when it's ready to test (hopefully in time for Christmas :thumbsup: ).

kmaas
09-25-2006, 02:38 PM
...I'd like to see built in wet and dry hair dynamics...

That was part of one of the ideas I mentioned above, however, full submersion is a great idea and something I hadn't thought of. Are you thinking the kind of like the stuff in The Incredibles after the plane crash?

Wickster
09-25-2006, 03:08 PM
If you're part of the LW9 Public Beta, you can post updates on there too and release beta releases or release candidates like LW9...or better yet have someone here create a forum for you where beta testers can communicate and share experiences. Plus gives you a better understanding of what the beta testers are doing and make you figure out what's up.

or

release beta releases here on public with time restrictions or something so all of us can test it....heheh. :D

Earl
09-25-2006, 03:47 PM
Are you thinking the kind of like the stuff in The Incredibles after the plane crash?
Honestly, I've only seen the movie once so I don't recall specifically what it was like in the movie. But what I was thinking would be something along the lines of this: 3 dynamic modes. First is for fully dry hair. Second is for damp hair. The second type can be controlled with a percent, to vary how wet the hair is (allowing for smooth transitions between wet/dry). The third type would be a separate dynamic engine, for fully submerged hair. It would be controlled in such a way that I could specify a surface (after the surface is displaced by all means possible in LW) and anything "under" that surface would be affected by the submerged hair solution, and anything "above" that surface would be affected by the dry/damp dynamics.

This would allow for an easy transition of someone walking into a pool of water (dry => submerged) or for someone walking out of a pool of water (submerged => damp). Maybe even a control to allow for the hair to "float" at the surface if near enough (I'm thinking of someone with long hair who walks into a pool - at first the hair floats and scatters at the surface before the head forces it into submersion).

Just some thoughts! Oh, and I'd love to beta test too. :D

kmaas
09-25-2006, 05:06 PM
Great! Thanks for your ideas! The plane seperating wet and dry is a good idea - I'll probably implement it all as one engine, and then use different interaction objects (similar interface to how particles work). I'll have to do it as one engine to be able to do one of the ideas I mentioned earlier. :D

In fact, come to think of it, I know a very easy way to simulate this and one of the other 'to-be-announced' features. Boy, this'll be fun to write! :thumbsup:

geothefaust
09-25-2006, 06:22 PM
kmaas - It is good to see someone tackling this. :)

I can't wait to see what you do for your hair/fur plugin, count me in for beta testing, please! I'd love to use something other then sas.

JVitale
09-25-2006, 09:51 PM
Anyone open to beta-testing when I get to that stage?


Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me!!!!!

I am tired of hitting F9 just to see what my previews look like when I'm tweaking the settings in Sas Lite....

wacom
09-26-2006, 12:08 AM
1.

At the rate worley is going I'm sure you can cook something up that fits the bill for many- and cheaper.
Saslite is free- but the suck factor is high...

moc
09-26-2006, 02:41 AM
Anyone open to beta-testing when I get to that stage?

Me too...^^~I want to give you a hand....
if you really can done something amazing....

ufo3d
09-26-2006, 04:13 AM
Oh, I love rethorical questions! :)

I think this feature is pretty obvious that sasquatch can't do

stevecullum
09-26-2006, 04:59 AM
Yeah number 1.

Worley's SAS I'm sure has sold more than 100 copies since its creation, so if its better, cheaper and easier to produce good realistic hair styles, you'll be onto a winner I think. Especially within LW studios, that currently employ all kinds of compositing workarounds to get by the short coming of SAS. This will be where you make any money from, rather than individials and hobbiests. So it has to be production ready and have good after sales techinical support to be considered realistically IMO...

Nice to have someone else considering such a venture tho :)

kmaas
09-26-2006, 06:14 AM
Thanks for all the replies! It's encouraging to see so many people excited about this. In the next few days, I expect I'll have more time than usual to work on this (lots of time with a laptop and a car charger :D ). In other words, I won't be on the forums as much as I have been lately, but only for the next few days. I'll make sure I post progress updates and replies to questions/feature requests when I get a chance!

zapper1998
09-26-2006, 06:22 AM
I would definintely be interested in 1.

dballesg
09-26-2006, 08:49 AM
Hi,

If you still admit suggestions, if you are going to do some kind of stlying for the guides, please, I hope that it would be integrated on modeler viewports (ala LWCAD).

I really hate plugins like Vertex Paint or Skelegon Editor, that need to open their own OpenGL windows to work. That is from the last millenia.

Almost all the new apps, allows the editing and adding of new gizmos, plugin handlers or controllers, on the viewports of the 3D app.

Maybe it is the time to ask Newtek to open that part to Modeler and Layout plugins.

Best regards,
David

Titus
09-26-2006, 09:24 AM
I think this feature is pretty obvious that sasquatch can't do

I can't understand why a hair creation plugin doesn't have by default such important tool.

kmaas
09-26-2006, 09:40 AM
I really hate plugins like Vertex Paint or Skelegon Editor, that need to open their own OpenGL windows to work. That is from the last millenia.

I absolutely agree (especially Vertex Paint's backwards viewport moving tool - yeeesh :stumped: ) and will do my best to keep it in the viewport if I can.

And, yes, I'm still open to feature requests or things you dislike about other tools. Actually, please, keep posting them. It helps me make this tool better, and my goal is to make it the best (not just the cheapest) hair/fur solution on the market. :thumbsup:

ufo3d
09-26-2006, 10:23 AM
I can't understand why a hair creation plugin doesn't have by default such important tool.

yes, me 2, I can't believe after six years we still don't have such tool. using modeler's tools for hair modelling is daxn time consuming. shave, FF and many other hair plugin also provide hair modelling tool. sasquatch is not only one, isn't it? it seems all worley's plugins are shaders, pixel filters.,etc, but no modelling tool, right?

dballesg
09-27-2006, 02:12 AM
Hi,

One question, I tried to use SasLite on a bearded character (Santa), and to overcome the 25000 point limit per layer that SasLite has, I thought on use FXMetaLink, but with weird results due to the threshold that FXMetaLink uses internally.

I posted an image here long ago.
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43025&highlight=Link

My idea was to void the guides on the same layer of the character, so I can do more guides for SasLite, and as well that FXMetaLink would transfer the morph from the face to the guides. Instead of need to create a morph to the guides for every morph on the face.

I think your plugin must have in consideration the morphs of character with beards, or facial hair, making its setup as easy as it can be! :)

Best regards,
David

kopperdrake
09-27-2006, 03:18 AM
[QUOTE=Sensei]If you're just looking for money in LW community, you're wasting your time TBH.. If you're lucky you will have 100 copies sold..QUOTE]

Wow - where did that nugget pop from? If he makes a decent plugin then there are many potential buyers. I have no sources to back up any quantitive figure, but I can't imagine that only 100 (at most) people would cough up for a decent hair plugin!

Or maybe this little Lightwave bubble in which I'm bouncing is so much smaller than I really thought :dance:

Ask on spinquad too, I get the impression that many artists hang there that don't hang here :)

Bog
09-27-2006, 06:54 AM
Wow - where did that nugget pop from? If he makes a decent plugin then there are many potential buyers. I have no sources to back up any quantitive figure, but I can't imagine that only 100 (at most) people would cough up for a decent hair plugin!

No, that's sheer delusion on Sensei's part, kopper. I imagine that Worley's flogged at least 10,000-odd plugins. Which is why he's sunning himself in Acopulco(sp?) instead of updating FPrime ;)

Sensei
09-27-2006, 08:29 AM
No, that's sheer delusion on Sensei's part, kopper. I imagine that Worley's flogged at least 10,000-odd plugins. Which is why he's sunning himself in Acopulco(sp?) instead of updating FPrime ;)

Hint, hint.. Why in that case there's only 1544 users on [email protected]? ;) The rest of clients didn't subscribe to receive news about software that they bought? Worley is special case similar to LW CAD, where lite copy of product was included in major LW release, reaching many people than just those talking on forums and watching news.. Why almost the all 3rd party plug-in developers made just 1 commercial plug-in and disappeared? Recent disappearing - Surpass.. And P.Olas plug-ins discontinued... If they sell so well, why to give up on them? The all 3rd party devs that I know must do 3d for living and development for add-on, for fun rather not real money..



Wow - where did that nugget pop from?

Experience.



If he makes a decent plugin then there are many potential buyers. I have no sources to back up any quantitive figure, but I can't imagine that only 100 (at most) people would cough up for a decent hair plugin!


Yes, I admit that hair plug-in is special case.. But kmaas will have to fight for/share clients with two other the same doing plug-in SasQuatch (with great quality) and FiberFactory IV (quality worser but reflection and refraction)..



Or maybe this little Lightwave bubble in which I'm bouncing is so much smaller than I really thought


NewTek member list has actually 57639.. http://www.newtek.com/forums/memberlist.php
The most of them with 0 posts and last activity ages ago.. Those wont even knew what is going on in LW world, they do just 3d all the time without watching news & forums or leaved community.. Those people might learn about you only from other peoples or from Flay advertise if you invest $600 for front-page top banner..



Ask on spinquad too, I get the impression that many artists hang there that don't hang here

I have more clients from SpinQuad actually.. ;)

stevecullum
09-27-2006, 08:58 AM
Bare in mind that alot of those clients are studios with multiple seats of LW and each seat must have its own plugin although its likely that only one will have registered for updates - the TD or whoever is in charge of keeping things up to date.

T-Light
09-27-2006, 10:01 AM
So difficult Kmaas. I wish you the best, although I still think a cheap fast skin plug would sell like hotcakes.

I used to be on a newspaper marketing and sales team back in the early 90's. There was a saying that 10% of people are up for advertising 10% of the time. Think of a number of LW users and divide by ten, Then divide by ten again to give you a possible figure of users currently in the market for a hair plugin. (It's all nonesence really but you get the gist)

Bearing in mind those who needed hair up until this point have sasquatch and those who are looking at hair right now will be looking at fiber factory or sasquatch. By the time you release your plugin you'll be fighting for a place amongst...
Those who own Saquatch
Those who own Fiber Factory
Those who use saslite free demo
Those who use the fiber factory demo (If it's a non time limited saslite type)
Those who are happy with displaced hair and fur with LW 9's APS.

If your hair's good enough (or in the right price bracket) I'm not saying you won't attract customers from their current ways and products, but you will have to come up with features their current systems are either incapable of doing or demand a lot of wasted work flow. There's been some excellent suggestions so far in this thread (hair submerging in water etc), but unless someone spefically needs that functionality, people are more likely to stick with what they know rather than risk time and money on something new.

Sorry for the downer, but, after all the suggestions (between 1 and 3) you picked the most difficult market to engage. :)

Saying that, I wish you all the best and may your plugs rock the LW universe :thumbsup:

Titus
09-27-2006, 11:53 AM
Sorry for the downer, but, after all the suggestions (between 1 and 3) you picked the most difficult market to engage. :)


You know this basic rule of economics: find a need, fill that need. Two hair solution exists already but he wants to make another one.

Bog
09-27-2006, 11:59 AM
I know this basic rule of economics: find a need, fill that need. Two hair solution exists already but he wants to make another one.

Make it do something that the others don't. There are a lot of wildly varied tasks that a fibre-shader could fill.

Sasquatch doesn't do the shape of curly hair/fur: the hairs are always sorta roundy, rather than flattenned like actual curly hair. Will FF rectify this? Dunno. Be nice, but if it doesn't, then nobody's going to have realistic-looking curly hair.

Sas guides are a bit of a pain. Styling is like pulling teeth. Again, FF might be better, but I'm sure there's going to be room for a third option.

Phil
09-27-2006, 12:23 PM
You'd make money for certain by replacing Surpasses. Lots of folks are still feeling the pain from LW having no sensible passes implementation. If you get in there before NewTek get around to fixing this, then you make a fairly quick profit.

Similar for a skin node. It would, at a casual glance, be fairly simple to put together for someone who can program - there's a lot of research material out there for algorithms, etc. and would be something that, priced keenly, would attract a lot of interest.

Having made a reasonable profit off some quick-n-easy plugins, you have a cushion to sit on whilst going for the more challenging addons.

As also noted, where you might make a killing off Sasquatch customers is by developing a styling front-end, especially given Worley hasn't dealt with that end of things. FF4 will come with one, which may limit your audience there, but the Sasquatch folk will pay readily for a styling tool. Fiber Factory folks will at least have the choice ;)

Anyway, if all goes to plan, FF will appear before the weekend (yay!) and we'll know more :D

Titus
09-27-2006, 12:50 PM
Sas guides are a bit of a pain. Styling is like pulling teeth. Again, FF might be better, but I'm sure there's going to be room for a third option.

That's why I suggested earlier to build a tool that makes sasquatch a complete plugin. Like a Hairspray with vitamines.

Earl
09-27-2006, 01:02 PM
Hint, hint.. Why in that case there's only 1544 users on [email protected]? ;) The rest of clients didn't subscribe to receive news about software that they bought?
Unfortunately making guesses as to how many people bought Worley's plugins based upon the number of people registered on his yahoogroup is highly inaccurate.

I'm confident Worley has sold a LOT more plugins than 1544. Many users simply don't care to register on yahoogroups (including me - and I've purchased his plugins).

So the reality is, if kmass came out with a hair solution that was better than Worley's Sasquatch, and if it was cheaper, and if he matched Worley's customer service, he would sell a lot of copies (and probably make a lot of money from it). $800 for advertising would be nothing.

T-Light
09-27-2006, 01:18 PM
Earl -

and if he matched Worley's customer service, he would sell a lot of copies
Nice one :)
That's so important, When they released FPrime I rang them (Anyone remember that time - they were busy as heck) they were still there to answer the phones AND reply to all emails. There's been a few knocks on Worley products this year (Some of which are no fault of their own) but their 1:1 customer support has allways been excellent :). Jon from fiber factory seems to have the same contact bug, I've emailed him twice (second time to say thanks with a quick ps) both answered quickly and sent early evening on a Friday. That's incredible, customers ring and write to me and it takes AGES for me to get back, I need a secretary, roll on 2007.

Another thing that would bring you to the attention of the masses is a smart professionaly built website, Worleys is functional but very 90's. In todays cut throat markets you should be looking at something functional, very descriptive (for all level of clients), and something which will show your products in their best light. Sell Sell Sell.

All the best.

kopperdrake
09-27-2006, 03:30 PM
Hmm...I know a few Lightwave users who never bother to come here - most of those work in large companies where knowledge just 'happens' by word of mouth. As a self-employed/freelancer I guess I come here when I'm desperate for knowledge and to generally get the abuse I miss from a larger workplace (:thumbsup: for the abuse).

I wonder if Newtek would share with kmass how large their installed user base is? I know I wouldn't use any of the plugins he mentioned as I don't really do much character stuff, but I do have a few others knocking around, and most LW users I know who use it to make a living tend to have a few they rely on. But as I said, most of those just don't post on here - they don't need to :)

So I guess the answer is, if you produce something kmass, get us to tell our friends about it ;)

You know, the bubble seems a little large than it did a few hours ago :D

kmaas
09-29-2006, 01:50 PM
I'm still out of town, but I thought I'd give everyone an update:

The plugin will be split into three sections:
1. Modeling tools for styling
The guides this produces will be compatible with Sas and probably FF (not tested yet). So, you'll be able to use this plugin for styling however you want to render it. There will be a bunch of these plugins, each for different tasks, available in Modeler and possibly through Layout's modeling interface.

2. Dynamics plugin
This will model inertia, collisions, gravity, wind, the movement of hair when it's wet, and all other movement. The dynamics will be visible in Layout, so you'll be able to see a preview of the motion before you render. Also compatible with Sas and probably FF (also not tested). This will be a displacement plugin.

3. Volumetric Renderer
Will be able to model different-shaped hair (curly, straight, frizzy) as well as virtually eliminating the need for both antialiasing and motion blur on the hair. It will also render the hairs as wet where they need to be. You will also be able to configure the shape of the hairs - whether they're modeled as round or flat (which could be textured for grass/field rendering). It will be a volumetric plugin.

Lately, I've been working on the dynamics plugin (since that's where Sas and FF seem to be the most lacking), although I've also started on the modeling plugins. It's going well so far!

stevecullum
09-29-2006, 01:59 PM
Great Stuff!

Looking forward to seeing your tester movies :)

kmaas
09-29-2006, 03:24 PM
Another thing that would bring you to the attention of the masses is a smart professionaly built website, Worleys is functional but very 90's. In todays cut throat markets you should be looking at something functional, very descriptive (for all level of clients), and something which will show your products in their best light. Sell Sell Sell.

Funny - I currently work for a ad agency as a system administrator and web developer!

kopperdrake
09-29-2006, 06:52 PM
I'll get working on the shrine :)

moc
09-30-2006, 02:00 AM
hi...
will you add some functions to "transfer"....the hair guide from each other?
This function I 've seem from maya's tut......not just copy & paste.......
she did a ball shape handle on the root of these hair guide.....you can move,rotate or scale the handle......when you transfer them to other head..

kmaas
09-30-2006, 10:49 PM
Back in town - thought I'd do a little catching up and updating.

Dynamics plugin is coming along good. The interface is a little like Motion Designer/HardFX/ClothFX - set up parameters and hit Calculate. I've mostly been working on this


hi...
will you add some functions to "transfer"....the hair guide from each other?
This function I 've seem from maya's tut......not just copy & paste.......
she did a ball shape handle on the root of these hair guide.....you can move,rotate or scale the handle......when you transfer them to other head..

I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you explain this a little more?

moc
10-01-2006, 12:12 AM
I post something related to maya's hair and fur....included dynamic...for ref..

http://downloads.alias.com/mkt/gmk_maya7_modifier_object.swf

http://downloads.alias.com/mkt/gmk_maya7_hair_transplant.swf

http://downloads.alias.com/mkt/gmk_maya7_fur_master7000.swf

and the second one showed waht I mean.....
p.s. download them much faster then online steaming....and need flash player...

kmaas
10-01-2006, 06:39 AM
I watched the videos, and it looks like a very good way to go. I'm not sure the first release will have this, but it's a good idea. Thanks for the info!

lilrayray77
10-01-2006, 07:59 AM
Wow, I must say, maya's hair system is pretty amazing...
@kmass - Could you post pictures and what not to show the progress your making?

kmaas
10-01-2006, 11:51 AM
Could you post pictures and what not to show the progress your making?

Sure, when I get to that point. Actually, since the dynamics module is probably going to be the first part to be finished, videos may come first. :hey:

kmaas
10-03-2006, 10:30 AM
Got another trip coming up - more time with a laptop and a car charger. I hope to have some very simple examples when I get back (depending on how things go).

kmaas
10-05-2006, 10:09 AM
Still out of town. It's going well - it is compatible with Sasquatch. Haven't tested it with FF yet, but I'd think it'll work too. Also, at this point, once the dynamics are done calculating, displacement for 100,000 hairs with 10 control points only take 8MB or less of RAM. Calculation takes significantly more, but this should make it easy to preview and quick to render. Of course, the memory requirements may change as development progresses.

Any suggestions/ideas are still welcome!

Edit: Added some more information.

T-Light
10-05-2006, 10:29 AM
Have you considered selling the dynamics section as a seperate plugin?

eg
Plugin 1) Modeling and growing (incl preset styles etc)
Plugin 2) Dynamics
Plugin 3) Hair / Fur Rendering

You could make money while you're working on the other modules and sell all three plugins together (later) at a special price :)

Dodgy
10-05-2006, 11:02 AM
I'd say, selling the dynamics separately would go over well with sas owners :)

kmaas
10-05-2006, 11:18 AM
Have you considered selling the dynamics section as a seperate plugin?

eg
Plugin 1) Modeling and growing (incl preset styles etc)
Plugin 2) Dynamics
Plugin 3) Hair / Fur Rendering

You could make money while you're working on the other modules and sell all three plugins together (later) at a special price :)

Good idea! That would certainly be one way to sell it (and probably pretty effective). I was planning on structuring the plugins this way anyway (model, animate, render) so it's certainly an option.

DaledeSilva
10-05-2006, 06:06 PM
haven't had much experience with hair plugins much yet... but was thinking about if it's possible in any to attach anothe 3d object to some of the hair to include in the dynamics...

from something like a simple, localized dampener (lke a tight headband) to something like a hair tie on longer hair (which would move around with the hair but also hold it together.... sounds complicated.

Will your hair texturing be a normal texture and therefore support nodes?

or will it be a seperate window like sasquatch, if it's seperate... don't forget to give a way to backlight the hair.

Dale.

kmaas
10-08-2006, 08:05 PM
I'm back in town again and thought I'd post an update:

I don't have any examples yet - mainly because, although the simulations look really cool, the hair still acts like it's made of rubber bands and it doesn't save yet. It's still in debugging mode, and I haven't added hair stabilizers yet (to keep the hair less stretchy and more stable). It's an awful lot of fun to watch though - move an object back and forth in the animation and the hair moves much like it should.

And, to answer your questions Dale:
Yes, you'll be able to do headbands and hair ties. The hair can be attached to things on both ends, so you'd just attach the hair to the headband or to the hair tie, or use a weight map to stiffen the points (each point can be stiffened independantly). The hair tie would still have to be animated some other way, but the hair would move to fit it. At least, that's how it's set up to work now. If you have any suggestions though, I'm open to them.

Texturing - I believe I could build a version for 9 that would do nodes. Haven't tried integrating a node editor yet, but that's a great idea!

And to answer your question on being in its own window - it will work and draw in the main LW window. Backlighting - if I can't do it in LW's main window, VIPER should work just fine for that. I'll see what I can do though.

Any other requests? I'm all ears!

sammael
10-08-2006, 09:14 PM
I request a screen grab.

DaledeSilva
10-09-2006, 06:14 AM
ha ha.. nice one...

question.. is the does using a weight map to stiffen points support mid range values?

I'm using weightmaps in cloth FX I've gotten very frustrated with not being able to taper off the effect - it only supports 0% or 100%

also, you mentioned that the hair tie (or other object would need to be animated by other means... perhaps you could write a motion modifier to add to the hair tie which would let you choose one point on one strand of hair to constrain the hair tie to - so it merely sticks exactly to that point without regard to weight difference or anything (and that hair just reacts as if hanging free)... then the other hairs can simply attach to head and hair tie as normal - so it's in essence got one controlling hair.

while it doesn't take into account weight difference or other collisions, it would definitely work well in alot of situations and may be a start for something further.

Dale.

kmaas
10-09-2006, 07:52 AM
ha ha.. nice one...

question.. is the does using a weight map to stiffen points support mid range values?

I'm using weightmaps in cloth FX I've gotten very frustrated with not being able to taper off the effect - it only supports 0% or 100%

also, you mentioned that the hair tie (or other object would need to be animated by other means... perhaps you could write a motion modifier to add to the hair tie which would let you choose one point on one strand of hair to constrain the hair tie to - so it merely sticks exactly to that point without regard to weight difference or anything (and that hair just reacts as if hanging free)... then the other hairs can simply attach to head and hair tie as normal - so it's in essence got one controlling hair.

while it doesn't take into account weight difference or other collisions, it would definitely work well in alot of situations and may be a start for something further.

Dale.

Yes, varied weights are supported. I haven't tied them into a weight map selector yet, but I built it so that you could (think hair with jelly mixed in). Right now, it just auto-generates the weights, but it has the capability to have different (full 0-100% range) weights. For that matter, the full range for the weights is about -infinity to +infinity, so you could really do some bizarre effects if you wanted to.

As for the next two questions, anchoring the hair tie to a hair, I guess I could probably do that, because you can already weight points differently. Point weighting (like, how much a point weighs, not blending) is also already built into it. That feature was originally intended for wet hair or hair that changes shape/size along its length. So I guess you'd just weight the point you anchor the hair tie to so that it's as heavy as the hair tie, and anchor the rest of the hairs to the hair tie. That's something I can probably do. Good idea!

And for the last one, collision detection is step 2 (in my mind) for building this plugin. I've been researching it and have found a really fast way to do it. But the hair has to be able to move right first, and that's what I'm working on right now. Rest assured though, collision detection is one of the main objectives of this project and will most certainly be supported.

And I guess I'd better reveal another part of the 'wet hair' idea I mentioned earlier. With this hair system, not only will you be able to have hair go down into the water and have it get wet, you'll also be able to spray it with particles and have it get wet. So, for example, you could throw a bucket of water at a person's head, and it would get wet, but only where the particles hit. It would then drip down (depending on the dynamics of the liquid you want) and get the hair wet further down. You could also simulate things like getting wet from a boat wake or a hose. Rain would also be possible. There's all kinds of exciting possibilities this opens up. :thumbsup:

I hope this anwsers some of your questions. Is there anything else you'd like to see?

kopperdrake
10-09-2006, 08:01 AM
My giddy aunt - this is all rather exciting!

DaledeSilva
10-09-2006, 09:17 PM
holy guacamole!

Chuckpie
10-12-2006, 08:32 PM
Everyone is ready for a beta - sounds like a liquid p.i. could be added with somewhat easy. Most users cannot or should not afford easy flo 4. Waiting to see what you got. I hope you make a ton of money off us hobby users.:thumbsup:

kmaas
10-12-2006, 08:48 PM
Nope, it's real. I'm up over 1,000 lines of code and growing. I'm working on a save feature (well, actually a load feature - the save feature's done) right now so I can render some sample videos for you folks. It shouldn't be too long here before I can show you something (not much mind you - I've only been at this a couple weeks!).

Chuckpie
10-12-2006, 09:26 PM
You just keep doing what you are doing. From an old (60) Oklahoma Fart trying to learn a young mans program. You are doing this the proper way. Just always remember two things one: if you cant find time to do something right the first time, when will you find time to do it the second time? The second thing: I can't remember, losing my memory I guess, but I am sure it was profound!! Ha! Ha! Have a good one, Good luck. Chuck:D :D

Riccardo
10-16-2006, 02:46 PM
A couple more questions:
I know I can do fur that looks good, renders very quickly, and can be adapted to volumetrics for full raytracing. The question is, for hair and fur, is speed a bigger concern, or quality? And which would you be more likely to use, hair or fur?

I work in an italian feature film production facility, we're using LW as our rendering software and we' are making very VERY complex hair styling with sasquatch. We just realised that to achieve a good level of quality we have to pay with freaking long rendertimes ( a couple of hours per frame!! 2k res, enhanced medium antialias, on athlon 3200)

Obviously every one wants speed and quality, but all the other softwares have their hair system and they're very fast and good....

Sas is old and slow, can you reach a high level quality with fast rendertimes?
Maybe including some more option to set up the overall quality of the filter?

kmaas
10-16-2006, 02:51 PM
Sas is old and slow, can you reach a high level quality with fast rendertimes?
Maybe including some more option to set up the overall quality of the filter?

Absolutely. And I'll keep your speed concern in mind.

Earl
10-16-2006, 10:31 PM
I guess the real trick is to give the user enough flexibility that they can control the quality/speed ratio without making it difficult to predict the outcome.

wacom
10-17-2006, 11:12 PM
Not to keep on this volumetric vs geometric thing with hair plugins- but doesn't one do better at larger resolutions- I guess it's all up to how the programer and the program (lightwave) choose to handle resources.

There's nothing like rasterizer in LW- but maybe you could make your own AA just for the hair shader? Then people could render it in a pass and add it back to a normal render?

Just a thought...

DaledeSilva
10-18-2006, 05:39 PM
just thought of something... if you can dynamically wet hair during animation, then it would be good to be able to assign the wet area specific properties in the node editor... like an easy reference node for whether the hair is wet or not.

Dale.

Chuckpie
10-24-2006, 09:52 AM
:cool:Just wondering, haven't seen an update on your plug in lately. I hope you havent given up. You at one time mentioned a liquid plug in, is that also in the works? Have a good one

kmaas
10-24-2006, 06:20 PM
I'm still here and still working on it. The renderer is already faster than SasLite on the benchmarks I've run. I'm in heads-down mode and can't give you any more information on it yet. Adding lots of cool stuff. It's going to make all of our jobs a lot easier. Call me the shadow man...stealth programmer! :D

mike_b
11-08-2006, 02:30 AM
Just bumpin' this in the hopes of any more developments :)

Paul24
11-08-2006, 12:50 PM
Hi kmaas,

I would say :

1 - A Poser model importer
I know about an other one but it doesn't works very well with Lightwave 9 / 9.2.

2 - A hair/fur plugin.

3 - A skin shading node that renders fast.

kmaas
11-11-2006, 06:34 AM
Just bumpin' this in the hopes of any more developments :)

Oh, don't worry. It's still under development. But some of my goals for the project have changed a bit. Thanks to someone on the forums here who recently pointed out some major improvements I could make, it's going to end up being way better than I ever thought it could be, and much more of a benefit to the LW community. So, if there's another feature you'd like to see and no one's mentioned it yet, I'm still open to ideas - even really major paradigm shifts!

BTW, I haven't been on the forums as much lately as I was when I started. So if you have any ideas or things that are important to you (like rendering speed, mentioned above), the best way to get it to me is via PM. That way, I'll be sure to get it. Thanks!

Iaian7
11-11-2006, 12:45 PM
Good to hear. Keep it up, I'm very anxious to see your work!!