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joschy
09-20-2006, 03:00 AM
itīs out, go and get it :D

gatz
09-20-2006, 03:34 AM
Unless you're on a Mac. 1 CPU is plenty for us...

If all W was going to say was f**k U, why wait?

Phil
09-20-2006, 03:40 AM
Well I'm so surprised, you could knock me down with a feather </sarcasm> The 10th update in 6 years that doesn't make any effort to provide raytracing support. Says it all.

oDDity
09-20-2006, 06:09 AM
When you have a monopoly you can do what you want.
WHat are you going to do? Stop using sasquatch and write your own hair and fur plugin?

Phil
09-20-2006, 07:54 AM
When you have a monopoly you can do what you want.
WHat are you going to do? Stop using sasquatch and write your own hair and fur plugin?

Well, I'm not going to support the vendor until they raise their game, for starters. After 6 years, any well of hope for Worley to advance Sasquatch has largely run dry. They appear to have become lazy and/or arrogant and I don't feel inclined to reward that, especially given such a large price tag and when the current rate of progress suggests no sign of raytrace support coming any time soon.

I'm meanwhile very willing to hand over cold, hard cash to any brave developer who does deliver a full, capable end-to-end hair solution, including Worley should they receive a swift kick to sensitive areas. I doubt I'm alone. The reappearance of Fiber Factory gives me some hope for change, and there's always hope that there is a maverick coder out there who will give us something to do for hair the equivalent of what Dynamite has done for volumetrics in LW.

Meanwhile, there's not much more to be done than bemoan the current situation and hope that this provides developers with sufficient incentive to try and pull some code together and to bring their works to market. Squeaky wheel approach ;)

archiea
09-21-2006, 11:34 PM
Kinda harsh, don't you think? I mean Worley's releases has been pretty much on par with what most people have expected. yeah sure, we'd all luv a more advanced fur shader, but besides the recent fiberfactory anouncement, is there any other plug-in that does what sasquatch does? I'd be more worried about that.
The fact that stuff like this is considered "niche" so that development is at its current pace.

I mean which developer can afford to create an "and to end" hair solution for LW? Especially with the transitory state of LW's SDK? Looks like you need to criticise NT before you criticise Worley....


Well, I'm not going to support the vendor until they raise their game, for starters. After 6 years, any well of hope for Worley to advance Sasquatch has largely run dry. They appear to have become lazy and/or arrogant and I don't feel inclined to reward that, especially given such a large price tag and when the current rate of progress suggests no sign of raytrace support coming any time soon.

I'm meanwhile very willing to hand over cold, hard cash to any brave developer who does deliver a full, capable end-to-end hair solution, including Worley should they receive a swift kick to sensitive areas. I doubt I'm alone. The reappearance of Fiber Factory gives me some hope for change, and there's always hope that there is a maverick coder out there who will give us something to do for hair the equivalent of what Dynamite has done for volumetrics in LW.

Meanwhile, there's not much more to be done than bemoan the current situation and hope that this provides developers with sufficient incentive to try and pull some code together and to bring their works to market. Squeaky wheel approach ;)

Phil
09-21-2006, 11:56 PM
Harsh? 6 *years* with the price firmly set at near enough $500 and we still have no styling tool and no raytrace support (even via a shader hack, something that Steamer used in 1998; it should be conceivable to at least get this in Sasquatch in 2006).

Casting around for LW alternatives, we have Fiber Factory 4 which has a styling tool and raytrace support. It does have a few rough edges, granted, but at half the price, and with a renewed and seemingly passionate developer behind it, I'm more than tempted to take a look. In the absence of Joe Alter, it's the only alternative. Depressing, but then there aren't that many alternatives on other platforms, to my knowledge. Most of them seem to use Joe's implementation for hair (XSI, Maya, Cinema 4D, Max).

As an aside, check Joe's price list. A license of Shave for Maya right now will cost you the same as Sasquatch for LW. Compare the feature sets; they've both been around for the same period of time. It really does speak for itself. It's that kind of developer I'm much more inclined to support with my cash.

Part of the reason for my frustration is that Worley must know that they have the market largely sown up for hair and fur on LW, hence the lack of price movement and the seemingly glacial pace of development. Despite this happy state of affairs for them, 6 years later we are seeing only incremental updates and being asked to continue to ignore the great big gaping holes in the featureset. With a $500 price tag, I'd expect a little more commitment to the product.

This doesn't detract from the quality of the other products he has - FPrime, G2, Taft and Polk. Of these, only FPrime seems to be incomplete; largely due to the LW SDK limitations, it seems. I'd recommend any of those to anyone who might find them useful. I am, though, still disappointed by the state of Sasquatch. Until Worley raises his game to provide much more substantial and frequent updates to Sasquatch, it's hard to recommend except on the basis that it is currently the only real option.

oDDity
09-22-2006, 02:06 AM
One problem is the tiny plugin market for Lightwave.
What this means is that you virtually never have two competing plugin makers making the same kind of plugin, trying to get your custom by being better or cheaper than the other, so your only choice in most cases for any particular plugin you might need is 'this is your only option, take it or leave it'.
Competition between manufacturers is obviously very healthy for the consumer.

ufo3d
09-22-2006, 02:39 AM
take it or leave it, sasqautch is the only option for LW at the moment, worley knows that. that is why the discount price is still pricy. sas is not a completed product, it only provide a half completed hair solution.

T-Light
09-22-2006, 06:48 AM
All said though, how many of us would be buying if the reduced price was $199?
I know I would.

JamesCurtis
09-22-2006, 07:19 AM
Yeah, If it was $199 so would I!!! But such is not the case. Oh well. I think Worley should think a little on this! They'd probably sell 3 - 4 times as many copies and make the money up in volume of sales!!

Sensei
09-22-2006, 07:44 AM
I mean which developer can afford to create an "and to end" hair solution for LW?

Better ask which has free year to do such large project and nothing else, without guarantees that it will return enough..


Especially with the transitory state of LW's SDK?

What transition... ?

Nicolas Jordan
09-22-2006, 08:36 AM
Lets hope the neglect towards Sasquatch turns into a extra attention for the next version of F-Prime. :thumbsup:

GregMalick
09-22-2006, 10:19 AM
All said though, how many of us would be buying if the reduced price was $199?
I know I would.
I would too.

lwaddict
09-22-2006, 10:25 AM
Well, I just happen to have a project being worked on now that needed a hair solution...a good one.

Gotta say, the deal helped me out.

The book Worley provided helped even more.
Once I skimmed through that I was on my way and the results are just what the doctor ordered.

Oops...sorry. :bowdown:
This is the slam Sasquatch thread...
gotta run now! 8~

Sensei
09-22-2006, 10:48 AM
From bad to better? From closed to more open?

I just thought that transition in English means "very huge change".. Like f.e. transition between LightWave to Maya..


A la what is supposedly happening with the oh so famous and vapourous nodal access for FPrime. I'll bet that come summer next year, we're still without an FPrime to preview nodal setups. I'm also very confused as to why this wasn't worked on prior to LW9s launch, and not until after the launch. All this while Worley and NT are "communicating every day".

Don't worry.. FPrime will support nodals as soon as surface calculation functions will be added to LW SDK.. And this will be great day for all you FPrime users on the world!

TomT
09-22-2006, 11:59 AM
Unless you're on a Mac. 1 CPU is plenty for us...

If all W was going to say was f**k U, why wait?

:agree:

I think Mr. Worley is showing the same care for the Mac community that NT is. He knows where his customer base is.

Sheesh. Sasquach is ancient tech by now. C4D & Maya have far superior hair systems (and if you don't like Maya's price for hair, there's always standbys like S&H.)

-T

alvin_cgi
09-22-2006, 03:51 PM
Harsh? 6 *years* with the price firmly set at near enough $500 and we still have no styling tool and no raytrace support (even via a shader hack, something that Steamer used in 1998; it should be conceivable to at least get this in Sasquatch in 2006).

Casting around for LW alternatives, we have Fiber Factory 4 which has a styling tool and raytrace support. It does have a few rough edges, granted, but at half the price, and with a renewed and seemingly passionate developer behind it, I'm more than tempted to take a look. In the absence of Joe Alter, it's the only alternative. Depressing, but then there aren't that many alternatives on other platforms, to my knowledge. Most of them seem to use Joe's implementation for hair (XSI, Maya, Cinema 4D, Max).

As an aside, check Joe's price list. A license of Shave for Maya right now will cost you the same as Sasquatch for LW. Compare the feature sets; they've both been around for the same period of time. It really does speak for itself. It's that kind of developer I'm much more inclined to support with my cash.

Part of the reason for my frustration is that Worley must know that they have the market largely sown up for hair and fur on LW, hence the lack of price movement and the seemingly glacial pace of development. Despite this happy state of affairs for them, 6 years later we are seeing only incremental updates and being asked to continue to ignore the great big gaping holes in the featureset. With a $500 price tag, I'd expect a little more commitment to the product.

This doesn't detract from the quality of the other products he has - FPrime, G2, Taft and Polk. Of these, only FPrime seems to be incomplete; largely due to the LW SDK limitations, it seems. I'd recommend any of those to anyone who might find them useful. I am, though, still disappointed by the state of Sasquatch. Until Worley raises his game to provide much more substantial and frequent updates to Sasquatch, it's hard to recommend except on the basis that it is currently the only real option.


:agree: :agree: :agree:

T-Light
09-22-2006, 04:37 PM
Just took another look at fiber factory, admittedly there isn't any finished artwork over there yet.

BUT, there was a couple of posts in another thread saying it looked a bit rubbish, I'd say take a closer look at those individual hairs, they're smoother than a baby's butt, Sas hair is noisy and I'm guessing sasquatch would take a mass of passes without adaptive sampling to get something similar.

Here's hoping Jon can release this soon and we can all take a look for ourselves, remember this puppy comes with it's own styling tools (soon to be available in layout), you can see your hair in viper as your working on it and as it's visible to the LW render pipeline it may well work with the current fprime.

Here's hoping.

Phil
09-22-2006, 04:47 PM
I'm waiting with credit card ready, to be honest. It's not perfect - the raytrace support is a little.....fudged at the moment, but it has pretty much everything I've been waiting for. The volumetric renderer also means that we won't suffer the problems that pixel filters have when interacting :)

The custom object is really cute for visualising hair in Layout as well. I have high hopes for this and am ready to put my money where my mouth is. :)

I'm optimistic; in any case, for what I need, it's a closer match than Sasquatch as will be obvious by my comments up to this point. Joe isn't interested, Worley doesn't have the right implementation (for me, at least). Jon may well be the man to suck more cash out of my bank account.

Anyway, Jon emailed me earlier to say that he's just working on the documentation and the delay meant he could also add surface based fur. Expect a paypal link to appear late next week.

T-Light
09-22-2006, 04:58 PM
Phil -

Anyway, Jon emailed me earlier to say that he's just working on the documentation and the delay meant he could also add surface based fur. Expect a paypal link to appear late next week.
Oooooh :thumbsup:
I emailed him this evening with a wad of questions, possibly won't get a reply till next week now.
He didn't happen to mention if he's releasing a demo at the same time did he?

T-Light
09-22-2006, 05:23 PM
Wow He is on the ball isn't He :)
Just had the reply back, there will be an x64 port and a Mac port then He'll be releasing the demo's afterwards.

Bog
09-22-2006, 05:39 PM
This is the slam Sasquatch thread...

Pants to that. Sas has helped me make a bunch of projects be a lot better than they'd otherwise be - can't mention them making me any money, we know what happens when I do that - but there are few dozen thousand book covers out there with Sas Grass on them, and a few thousand DVD games with the same, and **** with it. It's the best we've got, so right now we have to suck it up and use it, or use a different core application and I'm not ready to do that yet.

*Shrugs* I'd like a better solution. I'd like much better styling. I'd like a lot of what Shave and a Haircut had, but that's spilt milk under the bridge and the sleeping dog's burying his own dead.

I eagerly await the new Fibre Factory. Competition is good. I like Worley's style - the Red Devil comic was a nice touch, and I actually took the **** Bank Note to Hong Kong with me and used it properly, but... well... to be honest, I feel that Steve Dub is losing interest in the LightWave game. It wouldn't take much to keep us paying users appraised of what he's working on, and it would mean the world to us to be able to plan our lives. But he seems to think that's too much effort, or is holding him to too much, or is just not congruant with his sense of humour. Well, whatever.

I just wish this world was a little different sometimes.

T-Light
09-22-2006, 06:03 PM
Bog you're just too positive -

I just wish this world was a little different sometimes.
Personaly I wish the world was a lot different ALL of the time, I'm turning into a right old political bore, everytime I hear the news I've something else to rant and rave about.

Still, come next Friday, the birds will be singing, the sun will be be breaking through the clouds and Fiber Factory will walk amongst us. :)

Bog
09-22-2006, 06:14 PM
Meh. *shrugs*

I'm happier being a LightWaver, pishing and moaning about what I'd rather be having in front of me than an AutoCrat Wage Slave grinning fixedly as he drools Kool-Aid down his seersucker suit saying how it's proof of how perfect Max is that Max 8 has no new tools or adjustments over Max 7.

;)

T-Light
09-22-2006, 06:23 PM
:D

Oh ang on, I wasn't talking news of LW, I was on about Tony Bear and the Blair Bear Bunch. Did I hear right the other day that Cherie Bear punched a teenager after He made rabbit fingers behind Her head then told the press She wouldn't be pressing charges? How do they get away with it? :D

umstitch
09-22-2006, 06:35 PM
Oh ang on, I wasn't talking news of LW, I was on about Tony Bear and the Blair Bear Bunch. Did I hear right the other day that Cherie Bear punched a teenager after He made rabbit fingers behind Her head then told the press She wouldn't be pressing charges? How do they get away with it?

..no thats not what happened, you re just another victim of the media..tho having said that you d prolly be hard pressed to find the actual story..which is , funnily enough, "nothing happened".:thumbsup:

..oh and, roll on Sas v2.0!

T-Light
09-22-2006, 07:28 PM
Funny this, touching, holding etc a non complying human being can get you in a court of law in the UK, ask any shop assistant on what they're technically allowed to do with shop lifters, answer = nothing, nada, zip. touching is a crime. (They're actually supposed to put their arms out then let the shoplifter past if they keep approaching)

Basically, Mrs Bear slapped the guy across the back of the head saying -

you're lucky I have such a good sense of humour
Strathclyde police put six (yeah SIX) detectives on this, with hundreds of witnesses, tv cameras, reporters and photographers, and they still came back with -

it has been established that no incident took place
Amazing that, I just Googled it and I found an incident DID in fact take place.

Bear's party have brought in some of the most ridiculous laws and civil liberty violations this country has seen in a very long time. It's rather annoying that the same ridiculous laws don't apply to government family members. (Well actually they do, but only if the detectives, all six of them, accidentally find something to investigate.)

Apologies, I've gone all politico again haven't I? :devil:

Relax,
Babbling brook, babbling brook.
That's better.

So who else is thinking of buying Fiber Factory then?
:)

umstitch
09-22-2006, 08:03 PM
.. she never actually hit the boy, she made a "playful" gesture, all in good spirits, probably does it all the time when her sons are cheeky to her.

..and they jumped on it, but she got away without a scratch.

..i ve heard various versions of this story, but on the day it happened they told it like it was, subsequent days saw all the hullabaloo, over nothing...

..they even showed a clip on news24,..and ..there was no news really8/

T-Light
09-22-2006, 08:39 PM
She hit im, She Did, He said -

she just tapped me and said 'you're lucky I have such a good sense of humour
'tapped', 'TAPPED', that's touching and that's ASSAULT, police, Mammy Bear just attacked this boy...

I DEMAND justice :D :D :D

By the way, Mother of the teenager also said -

She's had teenage boys so she knows what they're like
Ooer missus, News 24 misses yet another scoop :D
Ok that's crude, It must be past my bed time,
G'night all :D

umstitch
09-22-2006, 08:47 PM
..yeh get some rest, computers squish your brain

Phil
09-23-2006, 04:52 AM
Blair and Bush - both as bad as each other. I really hope that they get what's coming to them before too much longer.

I'm certainly not missing the UK: all those CCTV cameras, the terrorist paranoia (the IRA never caused this much fuss, despite doing far more damage annually in the UK), and high cost of living, complete with a government that has generally no idea what to do beyond knee jerk legislation (the Serious and Organised Crime Act is being used to handle.....neither most of the time, but it does give the government handy powers to arrest people it doesn't like). Ģ200K is the average house price, for crying out loud. Utterly absurd.

The weather in Dresden is also far superior :)

Roll on Fiber Factory....

T-Light
09-23-2006, 07:15 AM
Phil -

I'm certainly not missing the UK: all those CCTV cameras
:D Read a report last night (looking for the Mrs Bear incident) that said Middlesborough town council (about 25 minutes drive from me) are attaching speakers to the CCTV's so they can shout at people if they don't like what's going on :D :D :D. It's so awful you can't help but laugh.

Here's the link to prove to the world I'm not making it up. :help:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060918/od_afp/britainsocialcctv_060918162847;_ylt=AkY5okFVOX8y.B i0U6OPvySgOrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

Anyway, to get back on track, how many people here made use of the Sasquatch offer? Despite it's shortcomings it's still a great peice of software, If Fiber Factory wasn't on the horizon ($83 cheaper + benefits) I may well have been more tempted. :)

Phil
09-23-2006, 02:14 PM
Meh. *shrugs*

I'm happier being a LightWaver, pishing and moaning about what I'd rather be having in front of me than an AutoCrat Wage Slave grinning fixedly as he drools Kool-Aid down his seersucker suit saying how it's proof of how perfect Max is that Max 8 has no new tools or adjustments over Max 7.

;)

It's a shame that XSI Foundation lacks hair, at least from what I can see, otherwise I could spring for that and roundtrip everything via PointOven. Such is life :D

It really has been a frustrating week here with LW though :

- glacially slow bone deformations mean that you wait an age to find out whether your deformations are actually working well. Adding a bone to a mesh in Layout should not cause the OpenGL performance to utterly tank. *grumbles with deep feeling*
- the inbuilt expressions cannot see channels driven by inbuilt IK. What's that all about? I mean, really...that's just utter rubbish. If NewTek cannot even deliver this in their *own code*, what hope is there?!
- Relativity 2 can see inbuilt IK drive channels (take that NewTek!), but cannot be driven by LScript. (Boo!)

Various bug reports sent to NewTek, but the blackhole seems to have been restored over [email protected] Wonderful.

All told, I am not a happy bunny. So yes, I'm irritated this week - 9.0 has had a lot of the shine sandblasted off and is looking a lot poorer for the experience.

cresshead
09-23-2006, 05:20 PM
quote:It's a shame that XSI Foundation lacks hair

actually there's a cheap plugin option for xsi 5+ now...does pretty good fur by the looks of it..

Phil
09-23-2006, 05:54 PM
bFurry? I just came across that. I'll look through the site later today :) Come on Fiber Factory, let's see what you're made of.

Jon noted that a full site rework is in progress and 'sales material' is also due to follow shortly. I get the impression that what is up there are test shots made during the R&D phase, hence the lack of 'wow' factor overall. We'll see soon enough ;)

lwaddict
09-23-2006, 09:13 PM
Meh. *shrugs*

I'm happier being a LightWaver, pishing and moaning about what I'd rather be having in front of me than an AutoCrat Wage Slave grinning fixedly as he drools Kool-Aid down his seersucker suit saying how it's proof of how perfect Max is that Max 8 has no new tools or adjustments over Max 7.

;)

coughing up coffee laughing.

I so love this guy's sense of sarcastic humor.

Never go normal on us, k?

cresshead
09-24-2006, 04:58 AM
re max 8 havng no new tools over max 7....simply gotta chime in here!

new for max 8:-
Pelt Mapping
Skin and Edit Poly
Load/Save Animation
Controllers..new ones!
Hair
cloth
open exr
adaptive tesseleation for radiosity ala lightscapnew import export options
scene state
mental ray 3.4

just a few hilights...
plus as i'm on subscrition we also got probooleans

Phil
09-24-2006, 05:08 AM
....and they had a demo out almost immediately, with learning material ;D

cresshead
09-24-2006, 05:16 AM
yeah...lightweave's THORN is the no demo issue....which i though they were going to solve when 9 came out....around 5 months back..Hmmm...

lwaddict
09-25-2006, 10:44 AM
Pelt Mapping --- What is this?
Skin and Edit Poly --- And this?
Load/Save Animation --- Lightwave does this.
Controllers..new ones! --- Yeah, this is specific.
Hair --- Sasquatch lite (uh...and the deal some just passed on)
cloth --- Lightwave does this.
open exr --- Lightwave does this.
adaptive tesseleation for radiosity ala lightscapnew import export options --- Lightscape bobs, has for awhile now.
scene state
mental ray 3.4 --- Lightwave's renderer just works better for me but whatever.

You won't catch me arguing too much against Maya or even SoftImage, both respectable programs that are still going somewhere...but Max is done. It's been bought and sold like an ugly, aggressive little puddle making dog...and this happens for a reason.

Plus with the price difference you can get Lightwave, a nice PC, and the plugins to fill the gaps...if you can really find any.

The Max days are over. Just go to get a job somewhere...I haven't even been asked about Max knowledge in a very long time. It's mostly Maya or SoftImage...with occassional Lightwave (but that's been coming up more and more around here lately).

cresshead
09-25-2006, 11:08 AM
oh dear oh dear oh dear....bottom of the class...:thumbsdow
you really must concentrate!:D

history lesson ahead...now don't flinch!

It's been bought and sold like an ugly, aggressive little puddle making dog...and this happens for a reason

3dsmax has ALWAYS been owned by autodesk...that's the parent company...autodesk created kinetix for the 3d studio dos...then AUTODESK bought discreet for their flame/inferno apps etc...and decided to disband the brand of kinetix and move 3dsmax, viz, gmax, lightscape and plasma with in the discreet area of the autodesk empire...and most recently they brought them all back under the autodesk main banner along with that puddle making 3d app maya, motion builder, sketchbook pro and studio tools...from their aquisition of the company called ALIAS...formerly known as alias wavefront and whose parent company was SGI which was formerly know as silicon graphics...

here endeth the history lesson!:hey:

cresshead
09-25-2006, 11:20 AM
quote
You won't catch me arguing too much against Maya or even SoftImage, both respectable programs that are still going somewhere....

well xsi is trying to survive..if that 'going somewhere'
maya feels like a taken in orphan off the cold wet street...not sure where it can sit in the big bad autpodesk home:devil: with big bro 3dsmax looking down on maya as a tempory lodger...:)

have alook as saslite or sasquatch then go and try tofind the same tools you can see being demo'd in 3dsmax for hair...remembe that 3dsmax9.0. hair is the most advanced version of the hair product made by the shave and a haircut company and licenced into the core of 3dsmax...it's the VERY same hair as used in the MAYA plugin [extra cost] or XSI advanced which costs quite abit more than 3dsmax...or even the hair module as found in cinema4d

...as for cloth...get real..watch the video on max and then explain to me how lw's cloth is so much more production worthy?

..just to level this..yeah i'm a lw user..i have 2 seats of lightwave and i'm uptodate with lw 9.0
i also have max 8 and xsi foundation [though i don't use xsi hardly]

i'm no 'fanboy' of max, maya xsi or lw...but i'll def correct misleading statements which lack insight into a product...

and yeah is was joking about maya...it's a cool app not a orphan!:D

cheers!

UnCommonGrafx
09-25-2006, 11:31 AM
Cresshead,
You held back. Those statements do no good for us wanting more from our next 'fix' of lw.
Pelting - the tools we all should have gotten from the Japanese site.


Oh heck... what for...

cresshead
09-25-2006, 12:05 PM
lw could really do with some 'cool' features...i mean lw is cool already but thesedays there's nr nothing in lw to tempt other 3dapp artists over to take a punt on lw...and not having a demo really doesn't help either..

as for 'pelting' what are you aluding to there rob?...you got me intersted!!!

Earl
09-25-2006, 12:22 PM
I think I read in one of Jay's press releases, that "NewTek intends to put innovation back in to the 3d market" or something very similar.

I can't wait for these innovative technologies to show up in LW. :D :thumbsup:
Yeah, I hope that wasn't just marketing talk. I'd like to see NewTek come up with some new and useful innovations to the marketplace.

Nicolas Jordan
09-25-2006, 12:30 PM
I think we just have to be patient for a while longer. Once Lightwave 10 is realeased I am guessing there will a nice foundation set down for innovative features that will be worth waiting for that no other 3d programs will have! Maybe Worley is just waiting for Lightwave to mature a bit more so they can make big updates to Sasquatch and F-Prime. :lightwave

Stooch
09-25-2006, 12:48 PM
lol. Lets be realistic, LW has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to catch up to the likes of maya or xsi.

max... you can argue that its hobbled together and not very well integrated, but it does have alot of features lw lacks. Something tells me that max will be phased out with maya taking over, i can still see them keeping the general interaction with max, but they are just too similar and maya has a much more stable and battle proven foundation. Infact, for me maya has a more solid foundation then xsi due to all the extensive battle testing. XSI has alot to prove but in the short time it was out, it got alot farther then LW. That should say something, not sure what but it does.

Phil
09-25-2006, 01:02 PM
Unless Max goes multiplatform, and gains the ability to work with Maya customisations, it seems unlikely that Maya will be killed off; for studios, this would be highly unpopular.

Maya has had a fairly good reputation for reliability, if not always performance. Max hasn't - it's fragile, both in architecture and also in data file design.

UnCommonGrafx
09-25-2006, 01:09 PM
http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm

I'm SURE you've seen those. What I was saying is that I am a self-admitted fanboy and that I'm wanting some of the other FBs to say what the case is: we need and want more.
The above tools are great. I just want lw to have the underpinnings for such cool stuff to happen, not that NewTek provide us with all the uber features of the other apps.
An example would be lscripts present status. Another would be how Relativity has been purchased yet not integrated anymore than it was as the GRAND plug that Prem put together YEARS ago. Another, and this is that dammed dead horse raising its head again, how the premiere hair program on the market was devved on an even less robust sdk because LW was The Tool.

The plugs on the above site put us back on the uv map, pun intended, and I guess I'm wishing for more Kmaas' to come to the fore and do some of this magic. But that comes with better, more robust underpinnings from NewTek and the 3D crew. LW can compete. But there's a lot of work to be done. Hopefully, that is happening now.


lw could really do with some 'cool' features...i mean lw is cool already but thesedays there's nr nothing in lw to tempt other 3dapp artists over to take a punt on lw...and not having a demo really doesn't help either..

as for 'pelting' what are you aluding to there rob?...you got me intersted!!!

oDDity
09-25-2006, 01:23 PM
Well, if one has to go, then let's hope it's Max. Out of all the apps I have tried, I truly despised that halfassed collection of plugins. I am always perplexed as to it's popularity among game studios. I mean, it's only just recently got a set of poly tools that brings modeling in it up to the level of half decent, before that it was atrocious.

Stooch
09-25-2006, 02:17 PM
Yeah, actually maya has some tremendous modeling tools too, what it traditionally lacked is efficent organization of these tools for fast workflow.

Check out the CPS tool script, it was originally meant as a replacement for SUBD modeling but also has a really nice custom set of menus and icons that really put it on par with LW modeling wise (organic).

Now with modo on the scene, for me there is a new modeling king. The tools LW has - may be ridimentary, but the workflow isnt. Although with recent updates the need for consolidation becomes more pressing.

UbiGuy
09-25-2006, 03:38 PM
Worst thing to me with LW is the separate interface (modeling/layout) and the lack of history.... (or stack like 3DSMax)

It could be cool for a modeler to to have a small and fast application for modeling...

But I do VFX and when I have to do animation, hairs, advance deformation, advance particles and simulation scene, LW show is age... It's always possible to pretty thing with any tool but time is money. I curently work with Maya, Max and XSI... I always use the best tool for the kind of effect I have to do.

For the moment I have to admit. Now I only use LW for modeling and Particle effect... And not in all case...

But LW still my baby. To be honest, people around me, smile (to not said laught...) when I said, I use LW. But they close there mouth when they see what I can do with LW (in less time, with better quality, than them in XSI or Maya...)

But, others software still more complete! I have to admite that.

I don't want to be rude, I just expose my personnal feeling. I still beleive in Newtek.

Stooch
09-25-2006, 09:13 PM
oh yeah, absolutely, im 100% with you there. A LW veteran can really make most out of short deadlines as long as you dont ask too much out of the program. Even dynamics are effective, i love some of the interactive tools - pretty cool to be able to adjust the trajectory. the improvements in lw9 that allow combined cache files from multiple emitters is a godsend for complex scenes.

Although I am not a fan of the separate interface and lack of history, one good side effect is that when all you need to do is model, you dont have the clutter and overhead.

and ubiguy, you work for ubisoft? im jealous lol, are they slave drivers over there? Do they use much lw at ubi or is it just you? :) Also, are there many russians working for UBI?

wacom
09-26-2006, 12:18 AM
Bhairy is awsome (given the price), and by another independent, small developer like Fiber Factory.

I think Fiber Factory looks freaking good to me- if it has dynamics...nice! RAM constraints etc. are things we'll have to see when it comes out, but at any rate it's nice to see two people taking worley on (Kmass)!

It can only mean needed change. So where is the Fprime rival?

kmaas
09-26-2006, 09:46 AM
So where is the Fprime rival?

Maybe my next project? :question:

voriax
09-26-2006, 08:14 PM
So where is the Fprime rival?

I saw a while back, a Renderman addon that worked exactly like fprime - except it worked with volumetric lighting as well as shading/geometry/etc..
Oops, did I just introduce ANOTHER program into this discussion? :P

UbiGuy
09-26-2006, 09:22 PM
Yep! Stooch I work at Ubisoft.

I work for the cinematic department and I am the only one using LightWave. They mostly use XSI, but now 3DSMax make is way. Anyway in the VFX team we use a lot of others software and plugins. Maya, RealFlow, etc...

Personnally I only know 1 russian guy at job... But we are 1200 employees at Job. And Montreal is a multicultural city.

Don't be affraid to visite Montreal... :)

kmaas
09-26-2006, 09:43 PM
Yep! Stooch I work at Ubisoft.

I work for the cinematic department and I am the only one using LightWave. They mostly use XSI, but now 3DSMax make is way. Anyway in the VFX team we use a lot of others software and plugins. Maya, RealFlow, etc...

Personnally I only know 1 russian guy at job... But we are 1200 employees at Job. And Montreal is a multicultural city.

Don't be affraid to visite Montreal... :)


OT: Did you work on the Rayman [R-adjective-which-is-not-coming-to-mind-at-the-moment] Rabbits game trailers?

Cageman
09-26-2006, 11:34 PM
I saw a while back, a Renderman addon that worked exactly like fprime - except it worked with volumetric lighting as well as shading/geometry/etc..
Oops, did I just introduce ANOTHER program into this discussion? :P

It is a powerfull system indeed, but I heard that you actually have to prepare the scene to use this system and it can take quite a while doing so. Some kind of baking. Thats what I've heard, but I wouldn't carve it into stone as a truth though. :)

lwaddict
09-27-2006, 08:18 AM
So it looks almost unanimous...

Newtek should at least double their price, quit giving away free software while you wait, and charge yearly subscription fees for either licensing or support...oh ****, why not both?

This way they'll bring in the revenue to have more programmers on the projects that need updating. Gotta have programmers and testers all over that payroll ya know.

They'd then be able to create external programs that support their original program and sell them to us and yet another high price.

Sounds good.

I mean, really...you don't expect to have it all do you?

You see...
there's a spiraling downward trend when you need to crank up sales with the staff and resources that you already have. People often check out software boards before making a purchase, see this kind of stuff, and go elsewhere to make their purchase decision. Well...there went some income. Income that could've been used to pay a programmer to fix one of the complaints. You'll notice some of the other software companies actually govern their boards with deletions or even licensed user access, or just don't have boards at all.

Vicious little circle. Welcome to the ring.

Phil
09-27-2006, 09:01 AM
Except NewTek largely bring this on themselves:

- Shipping a release where the copy protection is so broken that all new users can only use half the program is a wonderfully good way to tank additional sales (and repeat business). Note that customer service in this incident amounted to....almost nothing. No timebombed binaries to get people up and running, but instead an assurance that it would be fixed 'as soon as possible'. No compensation or other consideration for downtime was provided for any affected people. QA should have caught this; NewTek customer service should have made it a total priority to get their customers up and running immediately - not wait for weeks.

- Screwing up shipping for a large number of people. Wrong addresses, missed callbacks, no replies to emails, failure to send, etc. In a charity, this would be understandable, but in a company out to make money....it's all rather confusing.

- Making registration such a confusing and burdensome task is also a good way to p*ss people off. Especially for European customers, 9.0 was not handled well.

- Charging people for media, and seemingly not being clear in the first place, won't help.

- Making people wait 2 *months* without a single bug fix, or any statement of an ETA for said fixes, is poor form.

- Tying bug fixes to the stabilisation of new features within a large update (9.1) is not great for those of us encountering issues with LW. We'd have preferred a 9.0.1, or at least hotfixes.

- Never having provided a downloadable demo for 8.x, followed by inexplicable delays regarding a 9.0 demo won't encourage people either.

-- This time it's blamed on learning material being needed, in addition to some desperate need to timebomb the demo so it reverts to the mostly-useless Discovery Edition after 30 days. Compare and contrast to the learning versions of other apps. Also there are so many tutorials out there that a lack of learning material won't kill the usefulness of a demo.

-- How much learning material can one get through in 30 days, or are all of these being done as video tutorials, in which case will one be able to download it all in the first place?

-- The 8.x demo was 'coming soon' for the entire 8.0 through to 8.5 series. It never appeared as a download and only a special incantation to [email protected] would apparently provoke a response. Now it seems that a mail to [email protected] won't get you a demo of 9.0 as a new customer. You'll just have to wait until NewTek are ready.

- There is no substantial developer documentation. What there is isn't searchable, has one horribly outdated tutorial and it all looks like the author really couldn't care less about 3rd party developers. Nice.

-- It took a third party to write a node plugin development tutorial - NewTek still hasn't gotten around to it.

- LScript is badly broken in Modeler. Given that NewTek place this as a front and centre delivery system for addons to LW, breaking it seems pretty silly. QA should have been all over this.

Despite this downer post, NewTek have a decent upgrade in 9.0. They just don't seem to be working effectively to get it into the hands of (potential) customers.

Thomas M.
09-27-2006, 09:29 AM
The missing bug fix is almost 3 month due. Otherwise I couldn't nail it better. After all the anouncements and "promises" they made, their actions don't carry this spirit. I know it's hard to please customers and there will always be something to complain, but right now it ain't get any better. Just remember the big fPrime dilemma. That's probably the best example of how communications between NT and their clients work. Misleading is just a very mild description ...

taproot2
09-27-2006, 09:49 AM
Would you want to give out a demo version of a bugged up program like LW? Would you even think of buying a car that when you test drove the thing a wheel feel off every other mile? I'm a bit of a software junkie, LW9. Maya8, Z-brush, Modo,Vue5.....I started 3d with LW7, Im weening myself away from LW because of fundamentals, That modeler/layout division, wow, thats sad, Very sad. Seems to me newtek is a company with low resources, aka staff to make things happen. It takes talent and money to get good effective coding. Appears to me that other companys have bought up most of the good talent and/or the good talent have left the nest, Mabey even got tired of tring to keep a dying LW app on life support while other apps are being advanced forward (even in small steps) and NEW apps are being produced. Lw is not my only tool, nor is Maya or modo. This reply is a direct response to my concern that LW is going the way of the dino. And if it does ill be ready to keep moving on.
Happy LighWaving.
cp
( all of the tyops and syntax errors in this reply will be addressed and fixed in an up comming update, sometime in the future, you know, soon or something.)

Thomas M.
09-27-2006, 09:55 AM
Well, that sounds like you would fix this post till SIG2007? Oh, boy!

lwaddict
09-27-2006, 10:17 AM
Tap is sort of going where I was going in a much more sarcastic fashion...which is just my way.

Thing is...years back everyone chanted, cheaper, cheaper...
and Newtek made it so (probably should've ignored those posts).

Then they chanted better, better...
and still they chant.

Problem is staffing. And I don't think it's that all the other companies hired all the good talent either. I've got Maya now and it's got it's issues as well.

I think it's money for the staff.
But with the constant reduction in pricing, which is how you sell something that's not entirely up to par (there, I said it), how are they to pay for the talented people who they'll need to fix it?

It's an endless loop.
Well...not entirely without an end.

T-Light
09-27-2006, 10:36 AM
Guys...Chill... Go have a bourbon or a hot chocolate. :)

Aside from a lot of the bugs in the 9.0 build will have either been squashed already or within a part of the sytem that's being replaced, I think the biggest bugbear is within the current tracking system. Once 9.1 is here, it would be nice too...

...Topic created in beta threads ;)
[EDIT] - topic title 'NEW bug tracker wishlist. '

Phil
09-27-2006, 11:06 AM
Well, you asked for it T-Light :D

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 12:03 PM
kmaas ... No I did not work on the rabbit demo...

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 12:18 PM
Would you want to give out a demo version of a bugged up program like LW? Would you even think of buying a car that when you test drove the thing a wheel feel off every other mile? I'm a bit of a software junkie, LW9. Maya8, Z-brush, Modo,Vue5.....I started 3d with LW7, Im weening myself away from LW because of fundamentals, That modeler/layout division, wow, thats sad, Very sad. Seems to me newtek is a company with low resources, aka staff to make things happen. It takes talent and money to get good effective coding. Appears to me that other companys have bought up most of the good talent and/or the good talent have left the nest, Mabey even got tired of tring to keep a dying LW app on life support while other apps are being advanced forward (even in small steps) and NEW apps are being produced. Lw is not my only tool, nor is Maya or modo. This reply is a direct response to my concern that LW is going the way of the dino. And if it does ill be ready to keep moving on.
Happy LighWaving.
cp
( all of the tyops and syntax errors in this reply will be addressed and fixed in an up comming update, sometime in the future, you know, soon or something.)
:agree:

You hit the nail on the head... I don't think LW will be around much longer. So all you LW junkies start learning another app asap!

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 12:25 PM
I think I read in one of Jay's press releases, that "NewTek intends to put innovation back in to the 3d market" or something very similar.

I can't wait for these innovative technologies to show up in LW. :D :thumbsup:

hope your not holding your breath!!!

hrgiger
09-27-2006, 12:39 PM
:agree:

You hit the nail on the head... I don't think LW will be around much longer. So all you LW junkies start learning another app asap!

There are always people such as yourself for every app out there. And they've been around for years. Yet here we are.

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 12:46 PM
There are always people such as yourself for every app out there. And they've been around for years. Yet here we are.

If you can't see the bad situation that NT and LW are in... you are blind!!!

"yet here we are" yeah, at the bottom of the barrel clinging to life by a thread!

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 01:06 PM
lol...

I hope your not right Bryphi7...

Personnally I think Newtek have made only one big mistake. Everything come frome this error...

Instead of rebuilding from zero a new application, they have try to keep the old core and upgrade it. Ok! They change the core, but they do it slowly because they want compatibility. Past error enslave futur development...

It would have been preferable to have an intermediate version (8.7 or wathever...) with some additions (cameras, shaders, etc...) while the majority of the programmers would have worked on a complete new version for a longer time.

3DSMax and Softimage have pass trought step. Their first version was buggy but at the seconde, everything return to normal... They had a new workflow, new interface and more futur development possibilities...

I apologize for my bad english...

Nicolas Jordan
09-27-2006, 01:20 PM
lol...
It would have been preferable to have an intermediate version (8.7 or wathever...) with some additions (cameras, shaders, etc...) while the majority of the programmers would have worked on a complete new version for a longer time.


I think thats what Newtek had in mind with Luxology. It seemed Lux was beginning the process of developing a completely new Lightwave from the ground up based on mostly fresh code while the older Lightwave was being maintained with smaller updates. For some reason Luxology and Newtek went there own separate ways and Luxology is still building that app wich is now known as Modo. It's already been years and Lux doesnt have a complete app and I'm sure it will be at least another 3 years before they do. While many other companies have chosen to rewrite their apps from scatch like Softimage/3D to Softimage XSI, Newtek has chosen a different way of doing it, a parallel change over. If Newtek plays it cards right they are going to have an amazing application well before Luxology will have theirs completed. Just think we could have been still waiting for the new Lightwave to come out and with out any of these large updates to the current one. :I_Love_Ne

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 01:21 PM
I just reallize how much is sade to see LW user (Including me...) talking so badly about Newtek and LW...

I keep hope that Newtek will not deceive there user again.

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 01:23 PM
lol...

I hope your not right Bryphi7...

Personnally I think Newtek have made only one big mistake. Everything come frome this error...

Instead of rebuilding from zero a new application, they have try to keep the old core and upgrade it. Ok! They change the core, but they do it slowly because they want compatibility. Past error enslave futur development...

It would have been preferable to have an intermediate version (8.7 or wathever...) with some additions (cameras, shaders, etc...) while the majority of the programmers would have worked on a complete new version for a longer time.

3DSMax and Softimage have pass trought step. Their first version was buggy but at the seconde, everything return to normal... They had a new workflow, new interface and more futur development possibilities...

I apologize for my bad english...

I hope I am wrong too!
LW was the first 3d program I learned, and I love it... But I agree, NT made a big mistake by not doing a ground up rewrite.
I am just venting my anger here today because I haven't been here for a while, and I figured that there would have been an update to all these bugs by now!!!

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 01:27 PM
I never follow lux... story. Maybe your right.

But that mean Newtek have been screw up by them?

It could explain a lot of things. But I don't have details about there situation I don't want to start false story.

I never really try modo but it's seem a good application.

Nicolas Jordan
09-27-2006, 01:28 PM
Newtek is doing a rewrite from the ground up and we get to see it as it's being done and not have to wait. :thumbsup: It's just that we aren't seeing the final benefits all at once. It might not be until version 10 or 11 that we see all the improvements associated with the current parrallel change over rewrite.

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 01:31 PM
I still loving LW too...

Go Newtek Go...

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 01:32 PM
It might not be until version 10 or 11 that we see all the improvements associated with the current parrallel change over rewrite.
They don't have that much time...As far as I am concerned anyway!

T-Light
09-27-2006, 01:45 PM
I'd be a little surprised if v10 isn't announced 2007 SG, I'm guessing that's the plan.

If it takes more time to get v9.1 worked out now then it's because of what's due to happen in the 9.x cycle. For instance a new animation sytem isn't an easy thing to write, tisn't easy at all, but it's a coding problem v's animator issue - It's not coder v several million hardware variation issues that the coders of the new modeler OGL interface are presented with.

Give them time, 9.x's will come, then 10.x, then 11.x etc.

Earl
09-27-2006, 01:46 PM
They don't have that much time...As far as I am concerned anyway!
Ahh, but you're also not privy to their sales numbers, and the income flow. That will decide if LW will be around at version 11. :D

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 01:50 PM
nj3Desing ...

The most important thing now for Newtek is to avoid New buggy version. (and to send soon as possible a patch for the bugs...) I have talk with many people about LW9 at Siggraph and people was deceive. Too much bug...

Maybe it's preferable for newtek to stay silent about new features until there are sure, features are stable and completly implemented. They luch LW9 only to not loose the face at Siggraph. But I can understand this markething reaction...

I think lightwave loose a lot of user now. But if NT create a efficient software in the futur, user will return by themself.

Oh! one more thing... I think the two platforms (Mac and PC) slowdown NT. I don't said it's not correcte to have a Mac version. Poeple need a Mac Version and I agree. But they have to do things in double.

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 01:52 PM
I am not saying that LW won't be around... I'm saying that I wont be around.

pooby
09-27-2006, 02:03 PM
The peculiar thing is.. If Lw slowly evolved into an app with the power of XSI over the next 2 years, users would be delighted, and pay for the upgrades along the way, despite the fact that the necessary changes to LW to enable that power would make the future LW almost as different from the current LW as XSI is to the current LW.
There seem to be a lot of people who have thought this way and decided that they want that power now for not much more than the price of an upgrade - hence the massive recent influx of LW users into the XSI commmunity.
I think many have done this for animation reasons. I did.

You can't beat the LW/Fprime combo, so I think this keeps a lot of people such as myself breaking away completely.

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 02:06 PM
Bryphi7...

I don't beleive on one software pipeline. For fluids I use Maya (but I have buy a Dynamite version to test...) For animation and dynamic I work with Max and XSI. For particles I use LW and Max...

If LightWave get a an history and fuse Modeler and Layout I will work more with it. You will do the same if you feel LW is better for your production.

Time is money... If you leave LW behind it's ok. I can understand. I do the same for some project. You will naturally return if LW do the job for You.

Market Law...

Nicolas Jordan
09-27-2006, 02:07 PM
nj3Desing ...

The most important thing now for Newtek is to avoid New buggy version. (and to send soon as possible a patch for the bugs...) I have talk with many people about LW9 at Siggraph and people was deceive. Too much bug...



I agree the current version 9.0 still has plently of bugs. Most of them are new bugs. Hopefully they are fixed soon.

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 02:09 PM
I forget... I hope Newtek will make an deal with Syflex. Like Softimage have done. We need a real cloth animation system in LW.

Nicolas Jordan
09-27-2006, 02:14 PM
The peculiar thing is.. If Lw slowly evolved into an app with the power of XSI over the next 2 years, users would be delighted, and pay for the upgrades along the way, despite the fact that the necessary changes to LW to enable that power would make the future LW almost as different from the current LW as XSI is to the current LW.
There seem to be a lot of people who have thought this way and decided that they want that power now for not much more than the price of an upgrade - hence the massive recent influx of LW users into the XSI commmunity.
I think many have done this for animation reasons. I did.

You can't beat the LW/Fprime combo, so I think this keeps a lot of people such as myself breaking away completely.

I have been flirting with XSI recently mostly to expand my toolset and knowledge. The first 3D app I used was Softimage 3D 3.8 and I am curious to learn XSI and have it as a companion to Lightwave. I think the interface it easy on the eyes like Lightwave and Modo. Lightwave will always have a high place in my toolkit though! :D

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 02:15 PM
What I would like to happen is for NT to hire me, give me 30 knowledgeable programers, and let me redesign LW.:D :D :D

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 02:23 PM
Pooby

LW/Fprime combo can't be beaten. Maybe, but FPrim did not work with LW9 Node (if I'm not wrong...) lol

You're right, User have to pay the price of a rewright or go away. I can wait if they don't made buggy software again...

UbiGuy
09-27-2006, 02:33 PM
Maybe will will be surprise by Newtek... I still hoping.

lwaddict
09-27-2006, 04:01 PM
I am not saying that LW won't be around... I'm saying that I wont be around.

Now THERE's something to look forward to. LOL.

Seriously though, and it's already been said here.
People like yourself, proclaiming the end of Newtek have always been around. In fact, there's clones on almost every software board preaching the same demise of each company.

And yet...here we are.
Not clinging by a thread. But creating, and making money, and occassionally reading your posts on how the software won't work.
Oddly enough. It's working here and in many places.

lwaddict
09-27-2006, 04:04 PM
Bryphi7...

I don't beleive on one software pipeline. For fluids I use Maya (but I have buy a Dynamite version to test...) For animation and dynamic I work with Max and XSI. For particles I use LW and Max...

If LightWave get a an history and fuse Modeler and Layout I will work more with it. You will do the same if you feel LW is better for your production.

Time is money... If you leave LW behind it's ok. I can understand. I do the same for some project. You will naturally return if LW do the job for You.

Market Law...

Exactly.
I would never put all my cookies into a single application.
There are some that do different things better and some things worse than others.

If you want to keep up, you gotta think outside of the box and work in combinations.

lwaddict
09-27-2006, 04:06 PM
What I would like to happen is for NT to hire me, give me 30 knowledgeable programers, and let me redesign LW.:D :D :D

:ohmy: :eek: :ohmy:

no way :twak:

bryphi7
09-27-2006, 04:16 PM
Now THERE's something to look forward to. LOL.

Seriously though, and it's already been said here.
People like yourself, proclaiming the end of Newtek have always been around. In fact, there's clones on almost every software board preaching the same demise of each company.

And yet...here we are.
Not clinging by a thread. But creating, and making money, and occassionally reading your posts on how the software won't work.
Oddly enough. It's working here and in many places.

Are you implying that I don't know how to use the program? Get real dude!! NT's latest attempt is a bug filled hack of a program. Please read through this forum if you think I am the only one who thinks so...

The only reason i am here is because I am still waiting for the features that i paid for 2 years ago!

duke
09-27-2006, 04:19 PM
I came here looking for news in Sasquatch 1.8. I found generic whine thread #846.

Nicolas Jordan
09-27-2006, 04:58 PM
I guess we should get back to the original Sasquatch 1.8 topic. :o

So how about that Sasquatch 1.8, eh? :D

hrgiger
09-27-2006, 05:06 PM
Well, all I know is that Worley did say that they planned on coming out with a version 2 but as of a little over a year ago, they told me it wouldn't be anytime soon. I wonder if enough time has passed that maybe it has moved to the front burner for them.
I'm sure that whatever they are working on, I'll in all likeliehood own it.

Thomas M.
09-27-2006, 05:23 PM
... even if it is a MAX plug in?

hrgiger
09-27-2006, 05:57 PM
And why would it be a MAX plug-in? MAX has other plug-ins for hair already, why would Worley want to go there when they have, currently, a monopoly on hair generation for Lightwave?

Thomas M.
09-28-2006, 03:24 AM
Why do you have the impression that W is working on a hair shader? He said month ago they are pretty busy, but not if it's related in any way with a product for the LW platform. I guess he'll suprise us, either way. W so far has been a LW supplier, but who knows if he will continue in the future to do so.

Stooch
09-28-2006, 12:47 PM
Well...there went some income. Income that could've been used to pay a programmer to fix one of the complaints. You'll notice some of the other software companies actually govern their boards with deletions or even licensed user access, or just don't have boards at all.

Vicious little circle. Welcome to the ring.

you are right, this program is perfect and it has everything you need. Everyone stop complaining! Newtek knows exactly what to do without needing to listen to their customers. afterall they are perfect, the program is flawless and has everything we need. if it doesnt have it, we dont need it.

what are you some kind of lightwave addict?

T-Light
09-28-2006, 01:01 PM
Stooch -

what are you some kind of lightwave addict?
Bout time this thread had some humour, you just made my evening :D :D :D

Thomas M.
09-28-2006, 01:27 PM
Actually I can't stop laughing about the current state of the whole LW thing at all, but then it's probably not related in any way with humour.

hrgiger
09-28-2006, 04:40 PM
Why do you have the impression that W is working on a hair shader? He said month ago they are pretty busy, but not if it's related in any way with a product for the LW platform. I guess he'll suprise us, either way. W so far has been a LW supplier, but who knows if he will continue in the future to do so.

I don't know if Worley is working on an update to Sas. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the recent speed boost to Sas was a result of some work on something else and they saw it could benefit Sas and breathe a little bit of life into Sas sales.
I would have to say that after the tsunami of people rushing to buy FPrime (remember the two or more weeks of waiting for them to get to your order for those of you who bought it at initial release?), I would say that Worley still considers the Lightwave community a good customer base. I don't have any reason to think otherwise, do you? Luxology used to list them as someone they had a partnership with but they don't any longer? Does that mean anything? Probably not. But it might.
I think that Worley is probably busy at the moment with the whole Fprime/Nodal issue but I'm sure there is something else in the works as well. Considering I own Sas, I hope it's Sas2.

bryphi7
09-28-2006, 04:44 PM
hmmmmmmm... I don't know about that! You may be right, but I am sure that if he did Fprime for maya or max it would take months for them to go through the orders instead of weeks! :confused:

Cageman
09-29-2006, 01:00 AM
hmmmmmmm... I don't know about that! You may be right, but I am sure that if he did Fprime for maya or max it would take months for them to go through the orders instead of weeks! :confused:

I highly doubt that anything similar to FPrime would be possible in the long run in an app such as Maya. There are millions of ways a user can connect nodes, and alot of the usefull shaders are written for MR, so FPrime has to be able to interpret those as well...

There is a similar plugin to Maya... it is called Iguana... it can handle a couple of nodes, but as soon as you start connecting mathematical nodes, advanced shaders such as missFast etc, it dies..

LightWaves layerd texture-system has alot of limits in wich you actually can optimize code to be efficient enough even when adding several layers to a surface, which is quite the opposite of what nodes deliver...

bryphi7
09-29-2006, 01:19 AM
I understand all that. What I was getting at is... many more people use max or maya, so I would suspect that he would be able to sell many more plugs... what ever they may be.


I highly doubt that anything similar to FPrime would be possible in the long run in an app such as Maya. There are millions of ways a user can connect nodes, and alot of the usefull shaders are written for MR, so FPrime has to be able to interpret those as well...

Hah...It doesn't for LW does it?:D

Cageman
09-29-2006, 03:46 AM
I understand all that. What I was getting at is... many more people use max or maya, so I would suspect that he would be able to sell many more plugs... what ever they may be.



Hah...It doesn't for LW does it?:D

Well, I don't know about how much Mental Images would be interested in sharing their resources with Worley, as NewTek are sharing with Worley. FPrime is, in certain perspective, a re-write of the native LW-renderer with alot of optimizing. This would mean that Worley would have to write a new renderer that mimics the MR-renderer and optimize it to be faster than IPR (otherwise, what's the point doing it?). And, to do this, I believe deep access to MR are necessary (similar to what NT and Worley are working on now), which I don't think Mental Images are interrested in giving out.

So, if this is true, NT has the advantage of being friends with Worley, and can trust him in giving him what he needs to do the job.

Pure speculation of course... :)

lwaddict
09-29-2006, 07:32 AM
you are right, this program is perfect and it has everything you need. Everyone stop complaining! Newtek knows exactly what to do without needing to listen to their customers. afterall they are perfect, the program is flawless and has everything we need. if it doesnt have it, we dont need it.

what are you some kind of lightwave addict?

Uh, yeah.

But I'm about ready to join a self help group on this.

Seriously though...I'm not saying that it's not without it flaws, areas to improve, etc...I'm just tired of hearing "the end is near" everytime a new version comes out, or and update, or even a freakin' newsletter.

Starting to shake again ****it...gotta go make hairy things with Sas.