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Jeffers
09-12-2006, 03:50 AM
Finally, some news from Worley!

http://www.worley.com/

WhiteBoy
09-12-2006, 03:57 AM
Cool!

Now where's the new FPrime? :hey:

oDDity
09-12-2006, 04:42 AM
Speed enhancments? Is that it?

Sensei
09-12-2006, 04:56 AM
Speed enhancments? Is that it?

What else did you expect? ;)

Thomas M.
09-12-2006, 05:31 AM
Well, if it's just a speed enhancement update, I'd say they are joking. But let's see. Hopefully they are just bluffing.

zapper1998
09-12-2006, 05:46 AM
really cool

Jeffers
09-12-2006, 05:52 AM
I think this statement may say more about FPrime than Sasquatch! i.e. no news about FPrime so here is a little something to keep you content while we're working on it!!!! Maybe?
Anyway, speed improvements and a 64 bit update ain't that bad! I'm more interested in the discount as I don't own Sas yet......

Earl
09-12-2006, 06:10 AM
They'll have to talk about more than just speed enhancements to get my attention.

But at least now I know to keep my eye on it. :D

Thomas M.
09-12-2006, 06:32 AM
What's the point to gain 5 minutes in render time, if you loose days to set all up? Render times can increase, I wouldn't mind too much, as long as the time spend to style the hair would drop significantly.

Phil
09-12-2006, 08:16 AM
Until it supports raytracing with the generated hair, Sasquatch is only half baked. The consequence of moving a Sasquatched character past a mirror is embarrassing, especially in this day and age. In the 6 years since Sas appeared, you might be forgiven for expecting a more rounded product and a more evident commitment to the product itself.

*sigh*

hrgiger
09-12-2006, 11:28 AM
Yes, it's so horrible that Worley is updating one of their plug-ins with additional speed and a 64 bit version. And all at the ridiculous price of free.

I'm sure that there is more going on at Worley then a performance boost to Sasquatch.

Phil
09-12-2006, 11:34 AM
Not free for new customers. Not particularly competitive with other hair solutions available for other software on the market. Not much use if you need raytracing in your scenes. Not much use if you want in-built styling assistance with hair guides.

Until Worley announce it and make it available, they could have Sasquatch 2.0 in-house, but it's of no worth at all. Speculation like that is pretty pointless. It is, though, entirely their right to charge a lot of money and drag their feet. It doesn't prevent many from feeling rather frustrated. Speculation doesn't alleviate that unhappy situation, either.

pixym
09-12-2006, 11:59 AM
Where is the news are you speaking about???
The latest news from the Worley web site is "7/14/06 LightWave 9 is out."

EDIT: I had to empty my navigator cache...

Bog
09-12-2006, 12:02 PM
Ctrl-F5 is your friend, Eddy... :)

hrgiger
09-12-2006, 12:03 PM
Well, since I own Sasquatch, I'll take it for what it is, a free update to software that I own and use. In the absense of any other kind of news at the moment from Worley, I'll take it.

pixym
09-12-2006, 12:03 PM
Ctrl-F5 is your friend, Eddy... :)
Not for safari on mac...
Thanks anyway.

EDIT: I hope there will be at last a "NB of grass per square meter" Option!

Bog
09-12-2006, 12:20 PM
Ooop. I made an assumption. Anyway, yeah - the "percentage" type coverage is a bit old, ain't it?

glebe digital
09-12-2006, 12:40 PM
At last, 64-bit support!! :)

GCL
09-12-2006, 04:55 PM
Well...somewhat good news for a "short term price reduction". Hoping for a price point in the $200-$250 and got a sale. Considering comments made about it, lowering price with potential (productive) updates should get users going.

hrgiger
09-12-2006, 06:24 PM
It would be nice to know if this is just a by product of development of other software they are working on or if they actually are putting direct work into Sasquatch. I really would like to see a Sas 2 in the coming months...

KillMe
09-12-2006, 06:41 PM
was kinda hoping they would go volumetric with the hairs then get all them handy reflections etc - but never know maybe they have

Lego Maniac
09-12-2006, 09:21 PM
EDIT: I hope there will be at last a "NB of grass per square meter" Option!

That would be useful for landscapes since you could match the grass density from one scene with the density with a different scene even when the ground is a different shape and size than the original.

But you can do this now by turning off Sasquatch's Auto Object Size button, then the density and length of fibers won't adapt to your object size and you can cut and paste the settings to your new landscape. The density and length of the grass will match.

Sensei
09-13-2006, 05:36 AM
was kinda hoping they would go volumetric with the hairs then get all them handy reflections etc - but never know maybe they have

Such improvement would be complete software rewrite.. Not the type of "rewrite of LW core" adverts.. I mean, complete and absolute.. Maybe spline quantizing and license handling code would be copied from older version.. From business POV it would make sense to change name of plug-in and start selling it again from beginning, for both older and new SasQuatch users, with special (not simple upgrade) price..

Emmanuel
09-13-2006, 06:32 AM
Bring on the FiberFactory !

I mean, come on, its 2007 almost, and watching other apps get stuff cheaper, faster and better makes me wonder about Sasquatch anyway...whats taking so long with the nodes-into-fprime thing, too ?

Sensei
09-13-2006, 07:12 AM
whats taking so long with the nodes-into-fprime thing, too ?

Other than that it's currently impossible to use them from 3rd party previewer running on 2nd thread?

Steve Worley said clearly in previous statement that FPrime with nodal support won't be made until the next LW update with surface evaluation functions added to LW and exposed in LW SDK..

Phil
09-13-2006, 07:12 AM
I was somewhat disappointed by the FF4 images and interface. I'd hoped that we'd get something within Layout to be honest and the refractions/reflections look.....well, something like the kludge that can be pressed into service with Sas, to be honest.

For 250 dollars, it's not really up to par. Like Sas.

Now, if only Joe Alter could be given enough of an incentive to provide a proper hair and fur solution, there might be hope. On that day, though, I guess we will see flying pigs.

Phil
09-13-2006, 07:41 AM
That's not flying. That's falling with style :D

Intuition
09-13-2006, 01:00 PM
I'd say the best information here is that Sas is being made 64bit. Now, I think that Sas needs an "engine" update to address years old problems.

But that being said, if 64bit is something that Worley is shooting for then maybe we will see 64bit versions of F-prime and G2.

That further use of memory may open up more possibilities into making nodal shaders flow seamlessly into F-Prime without slowdown or instability. Of course, that is all dependant on the next Lightwave update.......

None the less, I am glad to see news from the Worley camp.

I think Worley will be blowing us all away (again) before too long.

lwaddict
09-13-2006, 02:51 PM
Phil...
for the mirror reflections when using Sas...
try the new CCTV plugin.

Nice.

lwaddict
09-13-2006, 02:53 PM
Still wouldn't mind hearing from Joe Alter again though.

serge
09-14-2006, 05:38 AM
for the mirror reflections when using Sas...
try the new CCTV plugin.

No, Sasquatch doesn't show up in CCTV.

lwaddict
09-14-2006, 07:52 AM
What about rendering from the viewpoint of the mirror and then mapping it to the object on final render?

This is the way lots of us have done it, since way back...
I sort of assumed that CCTV would've been an alternative. ****.

lw3d23
09-14-2006, 12:27 PM
according to japanese version, Sas 1.8 will be released on next Tuesday

Earl
09-14-2006, 01:07 PM
I've always wondered, maybe someone knows: Why is it that you can always find more info/news about Worley's plugins in their Japanese section? Why not say exactly the same thing in both sections? Granted, it's not that different. One article says "next week" while the other says "Tuesday". But still... it makes me wonder.

kfinla
09-14-2006, 01:18 PM
i'm glad there is sasquatch movement..would be nice if it worked with frpime.. i think 2.0 has been talked about for years.. even 2 yrs ago i think the changes everyone wants to see in 2.0 will be a total re-write of the plugin.. i think 1.8 is just an offering to soothe the masses till nodal support and a new sasquatch is ready..

it would be nice if this is a teaser for something more grand-e-ous but who knows.. ill take my free 10% (guess) render time improvement.

Thomas M.
09-14-2006, 01:25 PM
Couldn't be less excited about anything else ...

I owe this stuff and pray to god each day not to get into some need to use it.

So 1.8 seems not to take the pain away ...

So it's waiting for the nurse to come.

RedBull
09-14-2006, 02:29 PM
I'm with HR Giger....
While a Sasquatch2 would be great, unless it's Fprimable and 64bit i'm not really interested...

Having a FREE update to Sasquatch, 64bit compatibility, speed and bug fixes,
and the previous update included non-modal interface which is heaps better.

This is all for free people....

Sasquatch is old, but i've never paid for an update........
It was bought at 1.0, and Worley has given free updates to Sas,G2 and FPrime
and never charged more money for them.... To still be updating an old plugin 6years or more after it's intitial purchase, to work with current versions and new 64bit architecture, is a pretty good bonus if you ask me.....

harlan
09-14-2006, 02:37 PM
Geeez... you people are obsessed with FPrime. :)

archiea
09-14-2006, 03:03 PM
It would be nice to know if this is just a by product of development of other software they are working on or if they actually are putting direct work into Sasquatch. I really would like to see a Sas 2 in the coming months...


that doesn''t change the fact that its behind the times, hrgiger... free and obselete vs paid & state of the art. its always the same debate.. that we should be happy because its free or cheap.. well so is shareware... Sure an update is great, but thee are folks wanting more stateof the art.. and theya re going elsewhere for it. (I know.... "if you are unhappy leave")..

archiea
09-14-2006, 03:04 PM
Geeez... you people are obsessed with FPrime. :)


Its Lightwave CRACK! (the drug, not pirated software!)

voriax
09-14-2006, 06:36 PM
Geeez... you people are obsessed with FPrime. :)

Only someone without fprime would say that! Get 'im boys!

hrgiger
09-14-2006, 07:14 PM
that doesn''t change the fact that its behind the times, hrgiger... free and obselete vs paid & state of the art. its always the same debate.. that we should be happy because its free or cheap.. well so is shareware... Sure an update is great, but thee are folks wanting more stateof the art.. and theya re going elsewhere for it. (I know.... "if you are unhappy leave")..

You're not reading what I'm saying. Since there is no announcement about a Sas 2 and no "state of the art" news, I'll take a speed increase to software that I use regularly, thank you.

If you use Lightwave, there really is no other viable option for hair so you can't really go elsewhere for it unless you change not only your hair app, but your 3d app as well and for most, that's not always practical.

As was said earlier, I'm certain that Worley is working on something that is going to blow us all away much like FPrime did.

mrcracked
09-14-2006, 07:38 PM
Worley is not the only one having trouble with Lightwave 9. I am nto sure if they two are related issues, but since I use both it is kind of annoying.

http://www.the-worms-of-art.com/Products/Wi-Exporter_Single_User.html

Mark

harlan
09-14-2006, 09:06 PM
Its Lightwave CRACK! (the drug, not pirated software!)


LOL!!!! I think I'd rather have the CRACK!! ;)

FPrime is great... I just find it fascinating how dependent people have become on it. Hmmm... I guess it is like crack then.

harlan
09-14-2006, 09:08 PM
Only someone without fprime would say that! Get 'im boys!


In the words of the supreme U.S. d#####bag "bring it on!!!" ;)

hrgiger
09-15-2006, 02:46 PM
As always, the marvelous Japanese to English translation of what is on Worley's Japan page.

Release ♪ even a/the ♪ 64bit version

《主語なし》Tuesday in U.S. time, next week I give the sale of a/the Sasquatch, to a/the plan!
I went pile up the gratuitous updating that decorates the debut of an/the impact 6 years ago and reach hang hang and '15 times'.
《主語なし》This time also doing version Up including speed Up etc. it is gratuitous.

Please confirm the details such as a/the sale price in a/the site in the day.
The 64bit version is only the Sasquatch for a moment.

《主語なし》Because a/the sale period returns it to running price after a/the sale in only 5 days, please I see this opportunity and without doing 逃

GCL
09-19-2006, 03:08 PM
Well...it's NOW out priced @ $333. I'm borderlined on this one. Anything around $250-280 would have been better.
Got until September 22 though !

As a hobbyist, I would enjoy owning it but that's pricey (as much as I know it's normally priced @ $499). I need to find all the loose change around the house for this one.
I HAVE looked @ Meshpaint as an alternative. It's also on sale for $140 until 9/30.
Without flaming any passions, are there users out there that have Meshpaint and your viewpoint(s)/comparisons.
Sales are on a limited basis and be nice to know.

Intuition
09-19-2006, 03:22 PM
Geeez... you people are obsessed with FPrime. :)

Blashphemy!!! :devil:

Non-Believer!!! :devil:

Yes, we are the cult of F-Prime :beerchug:

Jeffers
09-19-2006, 03:57 PM
Mac Users get a raw deal again I see!!!!!! This UB version better be bloody good!!!!!!! :devil:

lwaddict
09-20-2006, 09:06 AM
SOLD!

Price isn't low enough to get two copies, like I wanted, but enough for one right now. :thumbsup:

Until there's a better solution...this'll get the :censored: job done for now. Nuf said. LOL.

lwaddict
09-20-2006, 09:09 AM
Mac Users get a raw deal again I see!!!!!!

This is so strange.
I thought, from watching all the latest Mac commercials, that Mac was the best?

They forget in those commercials that Mac comes second in a lot of programming situations.

Seriously though...I feel for ya.
I was a Mackie for years but finally got the patch and have been clean for 10 years now. :thumbsup:

Jeffers
09-20-2006, 09:17 AM
This is so strange.
They forget in those commercials that Mac comes second in a lot of programming situations.


I'm not sure that's strickly true - But I think this transition period to UB is hurting a lot of small developers..... and users! :grumpy:

Phil
09-20-2006, 10:15 AM
Someone else pointed this out to me earlier today. Remember Steamer and how it used a shader to hack reflection support in. Like Sasquatch, it was a pixel filter effect and there was no alternative.

What baffles me is, given this, why Worley haven't taken this approach to mitigate the effects of their lack of true raytracing support in Sasquatch. This must have at least crossed their minds in 6 *years* and yet....nothing.

I suspect Fiber Factory might do the same thing, but haven't checked yet.

lw3d23
09-20-2006, 10:46 AM
Not only FF, many developers such as Worley also always use many horrible images as sample images. go to G2/skin http://www.worley.com/G2/g2_skin.html#startit
how can you convince the users to buy your product by such images? it is really scary , can he justify what skin should looks like?

btw, $333 for an oupdated plugin, what a great discount!

lwaddict
09-20-2006, 11:15 AM
Well...you might not think that 333 was a great price but I gotta tell ya...I may be making 4 times that on the gig I've got worked out for Saturday afternoon using it.

So...uh...yeah. Great deal! :beerchug:

Not to mention that you occassionally get that, "for all those who purchased after blah blah date, free upgrade blah blah"...yeah, it happens. :phone_cal

But oh well. So much for whining about the current tools.
Gotta go make money with em. :neener:

Later
:lightwave

hrgiger
09-20-2006, 11:43 AM
Sasquatch is old, but I wouldn't say outdated yet. The renders are of good quality it does give you a lot of control over the final output and it was already fast, even before this new speed boost. I think that $333 should be its permanent price, until they release a Sas 2 and then we can talk about whether or not a $495 price is justified or not.
I won't argue though that it does need improvement. Obviously it's limitations on being a pixel filter does need to be addressed adn the fact that it only uses Shadow maps for generating Shadows on objects. Some actual guide shaping capabilities would be nice but not absolutely necessary. I'd much rather have a way to animate the guide hairs effortlessly then shaping them. Much like the way that Sas fur has automatic animation (secondary motion) added to it with no pre-calculation.

zapper1998
09-20-2006, 11:46 AM
Sasquatch is old, but I wouldn't say outdated yet. The renders are of good quality it does give you a lot of control over the final output and it was already fast, even before this new speed boost. I think that $333 should be its permanent price, until they release a Sas 2 and then we can talk about whether or not a $495 price is justified or not.
I won't argue though that it does need improvement. Obviously it's limitations on being a pixel filter does need to be addressed adn the fact that it only uses Shadow maps for generating Shadows on objects. Some actual guide shaping capabilities would be nice but not absolutely necessary. I'd much rather have a way to animate the guide hairs effortlessly then shaping them. Much like the way that Sas fur has automatic animation (secondary motion) added to it with no pre-calculation.

so as far as a Sasquatch owner will there be an upgrade price, or will the upgrade be free or what???

Bog
09-20-2006, 01:57 PM
1.8 is free, but then... it's a bit underwhelming, to be honest. I really frackin' hope that Worley's been working insanely hard on something fantastic for FPrime.

God knows I'm feeling grumpy enough as it is.

Phil
09-20-2006, 02:09 PM
FPrime is actually the one product that he has an excuse or two to ship half-complete. It wasn't designed to do much of what everyone now wants it to do and the LW SDK doesn't seem to have been designed to cater for this either, hence the stagnation. I don't blame him for this, but again, the price is high for the feature set that it offers. It is of only limited use right now, unless you use only half the feature set of Layout (number pulled from backside, but unlikely to be a great deal awry).

Sasquatch has been the irritating part of his catalog for some time now, hence my grumbling. I've been keeping my eyes open for a copy of Shave, but then have this niggling worry that LW will get a killer update shortly afterwards that will also, sadly, break Shave..... Hence my hope that Fiber Factory may turn into something useful with a little more effort, or that some Can Tarcan type torpedo in the water may try to sink Worley's boat and thereby spur him into more concerted action.

Bog
09-20-2006, 02:23 PM
I think we've seen the back of Joe Alter. Which is very, very sad. I wish him well, and hope him every success.

Phil
09-20-2006, 03:03 PM
I think Joe's rolling in success. Between XSI, Maya and other ports of his software, he's got no shortage of fans. It's utterly regretable that someone, somewhere screwed this particular pooch. Every time I see updates to the hair solutions in those products, I have to think....that could have been in LW.

Chuck stated a little while back that the issue was on the radar of NewTek - I'm hoping they can find some cash down the back of the sofa or something and bribe Joe sufficiently to heal old wounds. Enough water has passed under the bridge; if the powers that be can bring Syflex to LW, Shave must be doable. Hopefully with less of a price tag, though :)

Jeffers
09-20-2006, 03:32 PM
Fiber Factory looks like crap

That's a bit harsh I'd say.. Just had a good look at the FF site and sure, the renders look a bit rough, but it looks like a promising alternative to Sas.

At least someones having a go!

JamesCurtis
09-20-2006, 05:08 PM
Agreed!

Some of the samples aren't the best.

I just emailed them recently. They said they're working to have a demo available at some point. At least that way we might be able to judge for ourselves. I hope that it will be able to be 30 or 60 day timed so full use can be evaluated. They also state that there would indeed be upgrades from earlier versions of FF [will have to go through my disks to find my old Amiga or PC version].

UnCommonGrafx
09-20-2006, 05:46 PM
joe's so rollin' on that water that he's even responding to lw emails nowadays... only to say, "...it ain't happening." Paraphrased.

Yeah, I watch his list and see all those updates coming and am saddened. :thumbsdow Programmable textures, programmable hair... wow. Saddened truly.
Glad I have Shave for styling. Hey, a positive...
Poor pooch...


I think Joe's rolling in success. Between XSI, Maya and other ports of his software, he's got no shortage of fans. It's utterly regretable that someone, somewhere screwed this particular pooch. Every time I see updates to the hair solutions in those products, I have to think....that could have been in LW.

Chuck stated a little while back that the issue was on the radar of NewTek - I'm hoping they can find some cash down the back of the sofa or something and bribe Joe sufficiently to heal old wounds. Enough water has passed under the bridge; if the powers that be can bring Syflex to LW, Shave must be doable. Hopefully with less of a price tag, though :)

alvin_cgi
09-20-2006, 06:06 PM
Sasquatch is old, and it is outdated, look at Maxon Hair and tell me...
Yes, renders are not so bad and pretty speedy on rendering, does give you a lot of control over the final output(but its hard!:thumbsdow ).
It needs big improvement after... how many years?? Either $333USD or $495USD are overpriced... but is only "nice" hair system for LW... so buy it or not!:devil:

Earl
09-20-2006, 08:00 PM
I would like to see NewTek be in a position to come up with their own, original hair/fur/fiber solution. But second to that I'd like to see Worley put some dedication back into Sasquatch. At the time, I was quite glad NewTek added Sasquatch to LW rather than Shave... but after seeing Worley float along with no real innovations in that area, it's become a disappointment.

Jeffers
09-21-2006, 03:09 AM
This was Joe's reply when I emailed him recently about a return to LW:

:-)

Say's it all really!

Does anyone from Worley actually read these forums? I can't believe they don't comment!

Phil
09-21-2006, 03:33 AM
Is that a possibly positive?! I emailed him a while back and did not receive a reply. I was hoping he had a copy or two in a dusty cupboard ;D

I'm not surprised about Worley's absence. He made no personal appearance here, and since then only two brief statements, following the outcry regarding FPrime + LW9. Why should he change this stance in relation to Sasquatch?

When someone pointed out the shader option for raytrace support of pixel filters, it really brought the situation into sharp focus: Worley must have had a goodly number of purchases, at full price (490 dollars or so?) over the past 6 years.
Despite this, and whatever NewTek paid for SasLite, his customers still need to resort to workarounds. 6 years later, in 2006, this incredible workflow is yours for the steeply-discounted price of 330 dollars or so. What a steal./sarcasm

Joe should be pissing himself laughing at all of this. I hope he's in such a good mood now that he feels able to restart a LW port, anyway. The Fiber Factory developer must also be feeling happier than he has for a while.

I'm not sure I want NewTek to work on this problem, though. I'd rather they bought in the technology than get distracted from the already-large job they still have to complete through LW 9.x

katsh
09-21-2006, 07:32 AM
in my testing,calculating speed was up.
i render a same scene by 1.7 and 1.8.
1.7 : time was 65secs
1.8: time was 44secs

and also i could feel speed up seeing progress bar of sasquach.(that brown window 1)

Yog
09-21-2006, 12:37 PM
joe's so rollin' on that water that he's even responding to lw emails nowadays... only to say, "...it ain't happening." Paraphrased.

Yeah, I watch his list and see all those updates coming and am saddened. :thumbsdow Programmable textures, programmable hair... wow. Saddened truly.
Glad I have Shave for styling. Hey, a positive...
Poor pooch...Originally I would say Joe had a right to be royally p***ed at Newtek. As I have said before, when Newtek cut corners and fluff out a release by including 3rd party plugins, it's great for the user in the short term, but can has a negative effect on the community in the long run.
Let's face it, when Newtek began to bundle Sas Lite with Lightwave Joe Alter must have seen his sales (i.e. his livelyhood) fall through the floor. Likewise when Newtek began to bundle the Japanese PFX particle plugin with LW, Dynamic Realities might as well have given Napalm (Particle Storm 3) away, as very few people would have purchased it afterwards.

IMHO there is more to working with 3rd party developers than not breaking their products in the next release. Working with developers also means giving them an environment to survive in.

That said, I think Joe Alter ended up acting like a spoilt child and hit out more at his customers than he did at Newtek. Stopping development of the Lightwave plugin is one thing. Deleting without warning years worth of forum posts made by other people (customers) was down right disrespectful.

kfinla
09-21-2006, 12:51 PM
ya im disapointed theres no OSX update to sasquatch.. it seems kind of like an excuse to use the lack of UB as the reason.. every mac LW user currently is running the PPC version of LW and sasquatch.. sounds like the mac version got ignored, or that the optimizations cant be done to the mac version.. atleast in PPC.. sounds like theres probably been no OSX PPC development across the board at worley, they are waiting for the dust to settle so to speak on the mac and LW terrain.

gjjackson
09-22-2006, 09:47 AM
Maybe everyone should email FXRealm for their product, Furrify. It was slated back in the 5.x days, if I recall. Their website showed some really fantastic videos. If they joined the development there would probably be some competition and result in some good product. I don't know what type of render times were involved but the result was certainly excellent.

zapper1998
10-23-2006, 04:18 AM
Ya think after 6 years Worley would solve the reflections in Sas, S___ man 6 years, to solve a major problem........LAZY NESS i guess....when the new gets going, Fibery Factory, Sas will be History........my 2 cents