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oDDity
09-07-2006, 09:36 AM
I'd mainly like to know which species of ape they hired to devise it, because it certainly wasn't homo sapiens.
It seems to have no logic attached to it whatsoever.
What happens when you select a polygon on a model, copy it, paste it, is that you end up holding the original polygon, still attached to the mesh, and not the one you just pasted.
Considering that 99% of the time it's the one you've pasted you want to move, it makes no sense at all. What you then have to do is hide the original poly, grab the pasted one, and unhide the original again.
Also if you have layer one and layer two open, what happens when you make a selection in layer two, copy it, paste it, is that it's pasted into layer one and you're left holdng the orignal in layer two.
It's nothing short of farcical.
I know there is a paste tool, but it's not very useful, since it has no paste in place function, and I almost always want to paste in place.

rexhiebert
09-07-2006, 11:38 AM
Pictrix has a nice little (free) plugin called PasteSelect. It does exactly what it says- Pastes then selects the new geometry. I use this in place of the default. Recently fixed for version 9.

JML
09-07-2006, 01:12 PM
.....Considering that 99% of the time it's the one you've pasted you want to move, it makes no sense at all. What you then have to do is hide the original poly, grab the pasted one, and unhide the original again....


that happens a lot to me too, very annoying,

hopefully , they will do something about it..

bryphi7
09-07-2006, 01:15 PM
Are you implying that LW isn't perfect? If so... this is not the forum for that, but while your on the subject, I have to agree that it is stupid!!!

liquidpope
09-07-2006, 01:39 PM
I don't understand the thinking behind it. Maybe someone had a good idea for that and they forgot to share it?

Here's what I do -
Select the polys I want to copy. Cut and paste them right where they are.
They're now separated from the main mesh. That's my copy. I just move those where I want them.
Now hit paste one more time to fill the hole, merge points, done.

gerry_g
09-07-2006, 03:55 PM
Sounds like a good solution, personally I'm just happy to drop it into a new layer, never really bothers me or seems to impede my work flow. Strikes me the problem must be to do with LW confusing all four points that reside at the corner of each poly in the mesh with the one single point that resides at the corner of the poly selected, these problems seem to be at there worst when UY editing where the points from the peripheral of the unselected parts of the mesh get copied over with the bits you did select then get left behind as ghost points when you move it around

jameswillmott
09-07-2006, 04:41 PM
I agree with Odd, the way it works at the moment is backwards.

Nicolas Jordan
09-07-2006, 07:12 PM
:agree: I can't recall any other 3D program that handles copy and paste the same way Lightwave does.

liquidpope
09-07-2006, 08:22 PM
Am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with this?
Yeah, it seems a little wonky, but it's easy to deal with.
I'm not getting what all the fuss is about...

jameswillmott
09-07-2006, 08:30 PM
Once you've tried it the 'other' way, you'll see. :)

Good workflow shouldn't be about 'easy to deal with', you simply shouldn't have to deal with it at all.

Sensei
09-07-2006, 09:56 PM
BTW, did you notice Paste Tool in drop-down Edit menu? It's fully interactive Paste tool. As soon as there is something in clipboard it becomes active and left click anywhere in the layer places copied contents there, saving you pressing 't' and moving mouse.. Right mouse button finishes previous operation and makes new copy in the new location.. Easy way to make a lot of copies in short period of time exactly where you wanted them, without a lot of keyboard operations..

starbase1
09-08-2006, 05:19 AM
Yes, it is very unituitive. I'm forever ending up with my air and glass surfaces the wrong way around, or named the wrong way around, or something...

Maybe make it an option to switch the way it works in the next point release...

Nick

colkai
09-08-2006, 05:48 AM
I'd like the pasted bit to be selected after the paste operation, as well. I don't see any point in having it like it is now. None whatsoever.
Yeah, agree.
I find I tend to use undo/redo a lot, where I undo to select the polys, set 'em up as a part, redo, then select the part. Eitehr that or much hinding / unhiding goes on. It's a real PITA at times, actually, no, it's just a PITA period.

evenflcw
09-08-2006, 02:36 PM
I agree!

I'm glad some (else) brought this up because stuff like this really needs to be fixed and it doesn't take a gui expert to realize what needs to be fixed nor an übergenius programmer to fix it. It IS the little things that make up a fluid workflow. I'm guessing NT are just too afraid to change things because this is the way it's always been and there seems to be alot of LWavers scared of progress. Just because it's the way it's always been and few complained doesn't necessarily mean users like it, it could just mean they could work/bear with it.

Imho NT really needs to device a couple of common workflow conventions that will apply to all tools and commands, especially new ones (which all work differently to old tools and from eachother; This REALLY degrades the overall impression of LW; It doesn't feel fluid to work with and looks sloppy).

If you create a single polygon using the Make Polygon command the new polygon is added to selection. This allows you to easily start manipulating and create more geometry from the latest batch of new polygons (via smooth shift or simular). Imho this should be the main convention - New geometry should be added to selection. With this rule, pasted geometry and geometry created via Box/Ball/Disc/etc tools would be automatically selected so it could be further manipulated and tweaked using transformation (move, rotate, stretch) or deformation tools directly.

Btw, just as a sidenote, the new Make Poly command doesn't work like the old. Instead of adding to selection, it creates a brand new selection. There's a big difference there and the fact that NT seem ignorant/oblivious of the distinction and how it affects workflow is worrying and the reason why they really need to device some convention. The fact that they didn't see and fix this when they fixed the other workflow-issue and unconventional workflow of Make Poly (that it kept points selected) earlier this year adds to my worry. NT obviously can't control 3rd party developers, but they must make sure inhouse developers don't make up their own standards that contradict the old/common ones.

There will obviously be tool-specific exceptions to the main rule, for one reason or another. For example, newly beveled geometry shouldn't be added to selection. But this is a different kind of new geometry, it is grown out of existing geometry rather than created out of thin air as is the case with Paste/Box/Make Polygon/Draw Bone etc. In any case, I'm sure there's a way to figure out a ruleset that would help developers (inhouse and 3rd party) to create better tools that work more fluidly. The main message of this post is that NT need to rethink and repolish the old workflow, and adapt all tools (including "integrated" 3rd party tools) to a common ruleset so they all work more fluidly and analogous. Simular tools shouldn't have different workflows.

EDIT:
I should add that I'm not sure on when it's best to add to selection and when to create a brand new seletion from new geometry. In the case of the paste tool a brand new selection for every paste would be more convenient in most cases, but fact is that it is easier to deselect all before pasting than it is to reselect a previously pasted geometry that you want to keep selected.

oDDity
09-09-2006, 04:07 AM
I don't think they are scared to change the interface.
Remember when they added that ridiculous viewport min/max button to the toolbars? No one had asked for that and not many liked it, in fact it annoyed most people and no one uses it.
On the other hand, things that people do ask for, and would use, such as the above mentioned intuitive copy/paste system, a maya style navigation system (one hotkey, three mouse button system), all the tools still working properly when you have multiple layers open. <insert your own here> they have refused to fix in years.
Yes, little workflow things like that are what make a big difference, and I can't image they'd be difficult to code.
Sensi, I mentioned that paste tool in my original post, but as I said, it has no paste in place function, so it's not a substitute.
I'll try the pictrix plugin, but really, core functionality should not be added through plugins. How may lightwave users even know about that plugin do you think?

BTW, would it be possible for people like that pictrix guy to add a maya style navigation. or is that core code only available to newtek programmers?

Darth Mole
09-09-2006, 04:39 AM
So shouldn't this be in the 'Feature Requests' forum?

jameswillmott
09-09-2006, 04:45 AM
Oddity, what do you mean by 'Maya style' navigation? I'm not familiar with Maya at all.

tyrot
09-09-2006, 05:28 AM
Pictrix rocks!.. ...Pictrix fixed that hole long ago.... Just like many other holes...you should download all his plugins and try to use them.

Without his awesome tools i would be doomed because of LW modeler's dated, slow updating, amazingly messy tools...

How many shifts do we have?
how many cuts do we have_? (still not satisfied)
can we make any decent snapping?
can we even copy a nice new - free to move polygon?
can we make a decent UVmapping in the core?
how many buttons in there for almost same functions..?

come on without..pictrix,cman's plugins, LWCAD, i would really think before opening Lightwave's modeler...and most definitely i would be tempted to go somewhere else...

best

oDDity
09-09-2006, 07:00 AM
So shouldn't this be in the 'Feature Requests' forum?


It's more of a complaint than a feature request. This is fundamental core functionality I'm talking about, not a leet feature. If they don't already know the copy&paste system is *** backwards, they obviously don't use their own program.

By maya style navigation (actually, nearly all apps have it these days, or at least an option to use that system - apps like motionbuiler and modo actually give you the choice of several navigation systems, so newtek could keep the old Lw navigation system and give a choice of the maya one)
You must have used this syetm in some other app - you hold down a hotkey, usually alt, and then use the lmb, rmb, and mmb to pan, rotate and zoom. It's the perfect system, and totally intuitive.
If they do implement it, they should do it the way XSI did it, where you can choose which hotkey to use, and not be forced with the alt key, like in maya. THere's nothing I hate more than having hotkys forced upon me (well, apart from being skinned alive and buggered) The first thing I always do in any app is change all the hotkeys ot my own preferences, since they always seem to be arbitrarily plastered all over the keyboard by default.

Matt
09-09-2006, 11:05 AM
I suffer from this all the time, I agree you 99% of the time want the newly pasted polygons to be hilighted ready for moving.

Awful workflow IMO!

cagey5
09-09-2006, 11:29 AM
I used to find it awkward, but now I do as liquidpope suggests. I Ctl C to copy, move the original, still selected object to where I want it copied to, then hit Ctl v to paste the new version back in the original position. If the object is attached replace with Ctl x and merge afterwards.
Now I don't even consider it, it's second nature.

oDDity
09-09-2006, 11:41 AM
Of course you can work around it, you can workaround failures in any tool, but the best thing about properly implemented tools, is that they dont' require workarounds.
The current system is of no use to anyone, it either wastes your time, or you have to work around it, or find plugins to fix it - so can yo give me a single reason for having it this way?
All they need to do is change it so that:
1. you're left holding whatever you pasted, and
2. the pasted selection remains in the same layer you copied it from.
Unlike the current system, that one would actually be of use to everyone.

toby
09-09-2006, 01:58 PM
:agree:
Makes sense to me

starbase1
09-09-2006, 02:09 PM
Well, I hate the current setup as much as the rest of you - but there are VERy good reasons why EVERY software company is extremely reluctant to change the default behaviour of anything.

Suppose they change it as we want.

Every script that relied on the old method would break.

And even if you made it an option, most of us would turn it on, (and thereby break the scripts).

Some mistakes are VERY difficult to fix once made, and sadly I think this is one of them.

toby
09-09-2006, 03:40 PM
Well, I hate the current setup as much as the rest of you - but there are VERy good reasons why EVERY software company is extremely reluctant to change the default behaviour of anything.

Suppose they change it as we want.

Every script that relied on the old method would break.

And even if you made it an option, most of us would turn it on, (and thereby break the scripts).

Some mistakes are VERY difficult to fix once made, and sadly I think this is one of them.
That's a good point, but perhaps all it would take is integrating the afforementioned plugin - does that break anything?

oDDity
09-09-2006, 03:40 PM
There can't be many scripts or plugins that have anything to do with the clipboard contents or where it's pasted to.
Anyway, wth each new version, such as 9, a lot of scripts get broken. who cares if this adds a few more.

jameswillmott
09-09-2006, 05:24 PM
If the paste command gets remapped to a small plugin like PasteSelect, you have the new functionality without breaking old scripts.

evenflcw
09-09-2006, 06:18 PM
No thanks. Although that is a possible solution and it might work well for 3rd parties to do this, it is not the way to upgrade native functions. It's not a good solution or convention because the software will start to carry alot of old garbage and the most convenient functions (=the new fixed ones) will be the ones that have to carry the longer akward names. NT need to make more decisive decisions. For example, there shouldn't be a BandSaw AND a BandSaw Pro. There should be only one bandsaw - the better of the two and it should carry the original simpler name. Tools should be updated, not spawned in abundance. If LW is to be lean and mean, NT need to trim off the fat, because it will only leave LW dragging behind.

They will have to break backward compatibility sometime (completely or to a degree; concerning this or that). It's better they do it sooner than later. The later they do it the more established and entrenched poorly implemented features get. The sooner they do it the faster they can give power to the users.

Imho they should be more concerned with new users rather than old users. Old users might be what brings in the money today, but new users is what will bring in the money tomorrow and until the end of time. Old objects and scenes can be converted into new formats. Old users can learn new ways. But new users probably don't want to learn old ways!

PS. I say this now and regret it when NT affects my workflow for the worse in a future update ;)

jameswillmott
09-09-2006, 08:11 PM
At the moment, all the paste tool does is run the internal Paste command, which adds the geometry in the clipboard to the current layer. It ignores selections completely, and thus the internal Paste command does exactly, and only, what it is supposed to do.

To start playing around with selections is really a job for an extra layer of functionality wrapped around the native Paste command. It's like Nodes, each node should do the absolute minimum it needs to, and be coupled with other nodes to provide more sophisticated functions. Same as modular programming.

Plugins are not evil, built on top of a decent API they make developing and upgrading of tools faster and easier.

I agree completely with your comment about trimming the 'fat', I mean, how many Move commands/tools do we have???

evenflcw
09-09-2006, 09:06 PM
"thus the internal Paste command does exactly, and only, what it is supposed to do."
"Plugins are not evil"

I agree completely. I'm all for implementing things as plugins (given that they work no different from how a simular feature would work implemented into "the core"). I did not say implemeting a new paste function as a plugin was a bad idea either... just that giving it the odd name was wrong. It is LWs current Paste that is the odd one out, so it should be the one to have the odd name. Otherwise new users will wonder wtf is up with LWs Paste. And experienced users will have to tell them: "Use PasteSelectProPlus instead!". Completely backwards and unecessary imho, when they can make it right from the start or before users get their hands on an update. Some may say "Hey, it's just a name, if you don't like, just rename it in the gui". I say to them that there comes a point when you feel so many things in LW have been poorly named that you feel you've had enough. But nevermind my own neuroses, poor naming and renaming functions also create confusion for individual users and within the community as to what function is acctually refered to in discussions. So best to get it right from the start. Sorry for getting abit sidetracked.

jameswillmott
09-09-2006, 09:12 PM
Oh, my mistake! I almost completely misunderstood what you meant. Yes, agree completely. Now that I know what you mean. :)

Darth Mole
09-10-2006, 03:00 AM
NT need to make more decisive decisions. For example, there shouldn't be a BandSaw AND a BandSaw Pro. There should be only one bandsaw - the better of the two and it should carry the original simpler name. Tools should be updated, not spawned in abundance.

Amen to that. With the addition of new LW commands, LWCAD, Vertibevel, FPrime, plus a few other plug-ins and changes I've made myself, my Modeler now has 12 tabs all full of buttons/menus. Someone really needs to go through and audit the native tools and aggregate similar ones together under a single panel or command.

In fact, I'd put that pretty high on NT's priority list.

cagey5
09-10-2006, 03:04 AM
Another alternative would be to map the 'paste tool' - found under the edit menu - to the regular 'paste' key. This will paste the chosen object to the mouse pointer and have it free moving. In addition a right button mouse click pastes it at that point and gives you another copy to work with.

HowardM
09-10-2006, 03:16 AM
You must have used this syetm in some other app - you hold down a hotkey, usually alt, and then use the lmb, rmb, and mmb to pan, rotate and zoom. It's the perfect system, and totally intuitive.

hmmm, you can do this in modeler now.... am i missing something?

heheh, Paste Tool eh? Nifty... never knew it existed...

I agree though, alot of extra clicking and workarounds... better workflow, trim the fat, etc etc etc....

toby
09-10-2006, 04:01 AM
You must have used this syetm in some other app - you hold down a hotkey, usually alt, and then use the lmb, rmb, and mmb to pan, rotate and zoom. It's the perfect system, and totally intuitive.
I don't like Maya's way, but only because of personal preference. Maya holds the left hand finger still, LW holds the right hand finger still. That's the only difference.

I don't think Maya's way is intuitive because it requires frequent switching of the mouse finger instead of the left/keyboard fingers, and frequent use of the middle mouse button, two things no other app has ever asked of me.

lion111
09-10-2006, 04:24 AM
hi all

i followed this thread

but i didnt understand the big problem
shurely because english is not my native language
sometimes when i copy and paste i want the origianal poly still to exist for example when i paste into a new layer or into a new object folder
sometimes of course when i just want to remove the "old poly"

i select/ ctrl. c / delete / ctrl. v and done

or am i wrong

greetings

Darth Mole
09-10-2006, 04:58 AM
Personally I have no problem with LW's way of navigation. I guess my brain is now hardwired into the alt-rotate, alt-shift-move thing. And I have < and > mapped to the scroll wheel.

The copy/paste thing I now see is weird. But, really, how hard is it to download a plug-in and remap your keys - in the likelihood that NT won't be changing this any time soon?

I thought the idea of having a panel to say 'Yes' when you welded points or made a poly was crazy, so I got Speedy Weld and Speedy Polygon, mapped to ctrl-w and p, and now I can't really remember ever working without them.

Workarounds (plug-ins whatever) aren't bad if they work properly and are seamlesly integrated into the app.

oDDity
09-10-2006, 06:17 AM
Are you saying you can map zoom to mouse wheel scrolling?
ALso, can some coder type think about if it would be possible for a third party to write a plugin to use the maya style navigation in LW, or does it invovle core code not available.
Also do you know any way, or any program that lets you change your keyboard buttons. So, for example, when I press the alt gr key, lightwave thinks I've pressed the alt key.

I'm thinking this must be possible, becasue alt+LMB for rotate is already in place, and there is already a pan and zoom tool, so they just need to be mapped to alt+MMB and alt+RMB. THis isn't currently possible from the edit keyboard or menu layout windows, but can't be that difficult to include.


hmmm, you can do this in modeler now (maya style navigation).... am i missing something?




Well if you can, please tell the rest of us.

oDDity
09-10-2006, 06:20 AM
I don't like Maya's way, but only because of personal preference. Maya holds the left hand finger still, LW holds the right hand finger still. That's the only difference.

I don't think Maya's way is intuitive because it requires frequent switching of the mouse finger instead of the left/keyboard fingers, and frequent use of the middle mouse button, two things no other app has ever asked of me.

Eh? But your fingers are already on the mouse buttons at all times.
It's a lot easier to press mouse buttons your fingers are already on, than to have to move you hand to, and hold down various combos of keyboard keys.

Darth Mole
09-10-2006, 09:25 AM
Well, the way I map zooming is using a nice app called USB Overdrive (I'm on a Mac) - this overrides LW's own mapping, and works on an app-by-app basis. I simply map ',' (or <) to scroll down and '.' (or >) to scroll up.

I was very pleased with myself when I sorted it out!

I reckon you could potentially change the navigation too - possibly...

Darth Mole
09-10-2006, 09:29 AM
With regards the hand thing, my left hand always hovers over the corner of the keyboard with shift, alt, ctrl in easy reach. But I also need to use the RMB and LMBs to navigate.

Honestly, let's not get into a heated discussion about this - each to his own.

oDDity
09-10-2006, 10:10 AM
I don't suppose there is an app like that for windows?
Each to his own, you're right - except I don't currently have a choice of doing it my preferred way in LW, that's the problem.

hrgiger
09-10-2006, 10:52 AM
I think too that the polys that have been pasted should be selected. There have been several instances when polys that were out of view somehow become selected, I copy and paste them, don't realize they're there, and end up merging them back into my model which I then have to fix.

Darth Mole
09-10-2006, 10:52 AM
This looks promising...

http://www.highrez.co.uk/downloads/XMouseButtonControl.htm

lilrayray77
09-10-2006, 11:24 AM
hey that looks cool, Ill finally be able to make use of all these extra buttons on my mouse.

oDDity
09-10-2006, 02:41 PM
THat doesn't work, but I found a keyboard remapper for windows which works perfectly.
http://www.autohotkey.com/
I've used it to map zoom to the scroll wheel, made the MMB the pan tool, and changed the alt key to the right control key, since I most of my hotkeys set up aroundthe arrow key area.

oDDity
09-11-2006, 03:53 AM
Thanks to evenflcw, I now know there is a way to get perfect maya style navigaiton in lightwave, just download that app in my last post, and make a script like this for it:


#SingleInstance force
SetTitleMatchMode, 2

/*
Lightwave Viewport Navigation - AltPlusMinus!

Alt+LMB - Rotate View (Standard LW combo)
Alt+MMB - Zoom View
Alt+RMB - Pan View
WheelUp - Zoom In
WheelDown - Zoom Out
*/

#IfWinActive LightWave ahk_class WMgrBasic

!RButton:: ;When user presses Alt+MMB,
Send ^!{LButton Down} ;Send 'Ctrl+Alt+LMB pressed'
KeyWait RButton ;Wait until MMB is released
Send ^!{LButton Up} ;Then send 'Ctrl+Alt+LMB released'
return

!MButton::
Send +!{LButton Down}
KeyWait MButton
Send +!{LButton Up}
return

*WheelUp::
Send {.}
return

*WheelDown::
Send {,}
return

#IfWinActive

gerry_g
09-11-2006, 04:11 AM
Frankly I've always found wheel mice slower less accurate and less controllable than simply dragging left and right holding down CONTROL+ALT, and if you really want good navigation get a tablet, they’re faster than anything bar none and by a large margin too

toby
09-11-2006, 04:47 AM
Thanks to evenflcw, I now know there is a way to get perfect maya style navigaiton in lightwave, just download that app in my last post, and make a script like this for it:

That's excellent, well done. I'm going to share that with people at work, a lot of them use Maya as well as LW.

JML
09-11-2006, 06:56 AM
Thanks to evenflcw, I now know there is a way to get perfect maya style navigaiton in lightwave, just download that app in my last post, and make a script like this for it:

thanks a lot ! it works great,

I'm going to tell some friends at work that used maya before

:thumbsup:

toby
10-03-2006, 02:34 PM
Copy - Paste solved by xChrisx.
http://shallowabyss.com/user/3d/lscripts/
And other handy modeler scripts. FixCopyPaste is at the bottom.