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Chilton
08-25-2006, 11:03 AM
Hi,

Just a quick note--we're fixing yet another fairly minor bug in our installer now, but we have an obvious deadline to hit if we want it done 'this week'. I hope to have more info later today, or possibly tonight for everyone.

I'm going to be buried in this for the rest of the day though, and won't be able to get back to questions with as much velocity as usual. So please excuse my silence for a bit, and I'll be in touch shortly.

Thanks,
-Chilton

xeno3d
08-25-2006, 12:23 PM
Yes! Thanks chilton very exciting news

amigo
08-25-2006, 04:23 PM
Huh, does this mean "the long anticipated" release of LW unibin is at hand? :)

frank1024
08-25-2006, 05:27 PM
Just hury up and fix the dongle.

Reece James
08-25-2006, 09:57 PM
Cool. Keep it up, good on ya!

Reece

xeno3d
08-25-2006, 10:03 PM
sigh....

xeno3d
08-25-2006, 10:04 PM
yet another weekend withot my LW9 license

ShawnStovall
08-25-2006, 10:18 PM
Why does all the good news gets put in the MAC section?:( :cry:

Chilton
08-26-2006, 04:23 PM
Hi,

The update obviously did not ship on Friday. The problems basically center around our PC installer at this time, and we hope to have them working on Monday.

However, it is entirely possible that none of the shipping red dongles were programmed properly, which would mean that everyone who has a recent copy of LW would need to send it back to us.

It is *slightly* possible that *some* of the red dongles are good. The ones we initially tested with were. So I think I might write a test app over the weekend for Mac users that would tell you if the dongle needed to be replaced or not.

More to come...

-Chilton

Phil
08-26-2006, 05:12 PM
Uh-huh. I hope someone begins to seriously reconsider the dongle in future. It's really well past a joke at this point for those who have been affected. For all the hesitation from NT regarding other options, I've never heard of license servers being broken out-of-the-box.

Also....why isn't this a huge sticky in every related forum on the board?

Lightwolf
08-26-2006, 05:21 PM
For all the hesitation from NT regarding other options, I've never heard of license servers being broken out-of-the-box.

Unless the dongle they use is broken ;)
Oh man, I feel for all of you red dongle people, but to be quite honest, I still think it is the best way unless NT just want to give out license files (like lux do in a way).
Also: network licenses are a pain for plugin developers ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Chilton
08-26-2006, 07:46 PM
Hi Phil,


Uh-huh. I hope someone begins to seriously reconsider the dongle in future. It's really well past a joke at this point for those who have been affected. For all the hesitation from NT regarding other options, I've never heard of license servers being broken out-of-the-box.

Those of us who favor registration servers find this dongle issue really funny. It's a counter for all of those times when registration servers have been down.

I'm all for a frank discussion about the best way to handle registration, but now isn't really the best time for it, as I'm a bit distracted by trying to help fix the current problem on our end. But obviously, things like this tend to drag up the discussions about dongles vs other registration schemes both within NewTek and among its users.



Also....why isn't this a huge sticky in every related forum on the board?

Until very recently, this appeared to be a Mac specific problem. Some of the red dongles appear to be working on the Windows platform (at least that was my earlier understanding). As such, this has been a big deal here in this forum for some time.

I don't really participate in the other NewTek forums, mainly due to time constraints.

-Chilton

Dodgy
08-27-2006, 04:34 AM
Well I have to say I'm the biggest dongle fan. Unless they go completely license free (which i can't see ever happening) then the dongle is the best way for me to work at home and at work with LW as I can just take the dongle where I go, and my plugins which are registered to it can go with me too. It's a shame there have been some problems with hardware, but if you really consider the alternatives, (tying to hardware, network servers etc) this is really the best with the most freedom.

lardbros
08-27-2006, 05:03 AM
Well I have to say I'm the biggest dongle fan. Unless they go completely license free (which i can't see ever happening) then the dongle is the best way for me to work at home and at work with LW as I can just take the dongle where I go, and my plugins which are registered to it can go with me too. It's a shame there have been some problems with hardware, but if you really consider the alternatives, (tying to hardware, network servers etc) this is really the best with the most freedom.

Completely agreed. I would hate for Newtek to go to other methods, a dongle is simply the easiest and best way for me, and many people i know, to use license locked software! Imagine EVERY time you get a new piece of hardware for your PC, a new hard drive etc, and you have to get a new license key from Discreet. It's a royal pain in the butt. How many times have you had to reinstall lightwave? It's so much easier just wanging your dongle in and away you go, rather than contacting the software support EVERY single time.

Do you guys complaining use any software that has software locks? Or is LW your only one? I'd have thought if you did use programs with software locks you'd realise how irritating they are.

Phil
08-27-2006, 05:20 AM
PointOven here. You can only use it on one machine at a time and the transfer doesn't involve the plugin vendor. The control is a little confusing because it has to work with myriad tools and vendors, but for XSI and Maya, it's relatively straightforward.

I've had dead dongles before, for CAD tools and other things. It's really frustrating and you cannot automatically get up and running again without resorting to nefarious means. With a license server, you stand a chance of getting sorted out quickly enough. Combined with a serial number check at NT, they can track the number of activation requests easily enough and avoid mass piracy. It seems, at first glance, trivially easy to sort out. The license server also prevents more than 'x' copies being run at any time. You could even embed the serial number in the applications if you want to be really paranoid and have the activation check and serial check done by the license server.

Aside from anything else, if I want to run LW on Wine (linux), I can either tolerate discovery mode or hunt down a dongle crack. If there was a license server option (note - option!), I wouldn't need to face either possibility. That would be worth something to me.

The separate debate is how much revenue is actually generated via these control systems, compared to how much they cost both the customers and the vendor. I'm not sure this argument is positive at the moment, especially from the red dongle customers' point of view. They are, in fact, screwed until NewTek sort something out. Through no fault of their own; dongles are costing people real money - that would not have been the case for license servers..

Captain Obvious
08-27-2006, 05:22 AM
I think the licensing used by applications like modo is even better, but a dongle is really the second best thing.

xeno3d
08-27-2006, 07:22 AM
I like Luxology's way of licensing. I don't mind a dongle but when the dongle doesnt work like in this case we have to wait for a fix or an actual replacement. Thats a lot of downtime and something i'm sure a lot of us can't afford.

Lightwaves licensing could be a lot worse however. Take Zbrush on the Mac for instance... You have to "request" a new license key everytome you install the software and it usually takes about 48 hoours to get it via email. This is the case even if you need to reinstall an OS...

amigo
08-27-2006, 08:18 AM
IMHO dongle has never been a good solution, it's a nuisance and I guess it's there to keep stock holders happy that their investment is "protected" from unauthorized execution (as if).

From my experience when talking to developers of other 3D applications that use dongles, they have found at times that their apps are slowed down 5-10% (even 15%), due to the dongle calls. The extreme case of 10%+ was the anal nature of 3ds max protection which would call the dongle check each time you move a mouse, click a menu button, etc., which is plain ludicrous.
On the other hand license servers aren't any better either. You have to run a daemon locally or on the network and it will constantly be queried for bits of info about licensing part of your application. Frankly, I hate it when they sell me 1/3 of an application at a time, it's a plain cash cow method of milking users, charging them for every feature they use. And not to mention that if you are on the network and daemon stops responding, you are as good as a dead dongle.

I'm sure we can have a whole debate here about what's better, dongle vs license server, and both have caveats. Personally, I admire companies that have "balls" to keep their applications without hardware protection, simply a serial number, but it's all really matter of point of view and expectations of others (like stock holders for example). :)

Lightwolf
08-27-2006, 09:01 AM
From my experience when talking to developers of other 3D applications that use dongles, they have found at times that their apps are slowed down 5-10% (even 15%), due to the dongle calls.
I doubt this is the case with LW, since you can unplug the dongle after you started it (if it is USB of course).

Cheers,
Mike

ScottSullivan
08-27-2006, 09:41 AM
Personally, I admire companies that have "balls" to keep their applications without hardware protection, simply a serial number, but it's all really matter of point of view and expectations of others (like stock holders for example). :)

I wasn't aware Newtek went public. Privately held companies do not have stockholders.


...it's a plain cash cow method of milking users, charging them for every feature they use.

Hmm. Cash cow. I'm guessing that's why Newtek gives us unlimited FREE render nodes (unlike other unnamed apps), FREE point upgrades (unlike other unnamed apps) and is probably the BEST BUY of all the major 3D programs out there.

In any case, I can't believe we've gotten to this level. Newtek is doing the best they can do. Look at Apple's recent battery recall due to a mistake at Sony. Stuff happens. We just deal with it.

I agree with several of the others (Dodgy and lardbros to name two) who have already posted, the dongle is the best option. It's simple and allows me to go from my PC to laptop without having to 'reactivate' the software online. It's cheap, effective and easy to move around.

We can either move ahead or complain about the past. Onwards.

Scott

Chilton
08-27-2006, 09:42 AM
¿Que paso Amigo?


IMHO dongle has never been a good solution, it's a nuisance and I guess it's there to keep stock holders happy that their investment is "protected" from unauthorized execution (as if).


I promise we can all have an excited, heated debate about this later, possibly later this week.

-Chilton

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 05:51 AM
A new day, a new week and a new hope :)

abgrafx3d
08-28-2006, 08:54 AM
I hope we get a patch this week. Bought LW for a specific project and can't use it :mad: I'm posting here because the PC thread has died.

Noclar7
08-28-2006, 10:56 AM
Yes, another day of explaining at the production meeting that our brand new software we recieved doesnt have a bug, but is non functioning whatsoever with only a "will be fixed in the future sometime" explanation.

You know, after a bit of thought and listening to both sides of the dongle vs. non-dongle preferences I've come to this conclusion. It really doesnt matter at this point. Software screw-ups are bound to happen. The difference between a software company acting proffesional and not is the time it takes for them to resolve the issue. Do you think discreet would let something like this go on for this long?

frustrated,
RJ

JML
08-28-2006, 11:26 AM
Well I have to say I'm the biggest dongle fan. Unless they go completely license free (which i can't see ever happening) then the dongle is the best way for me to work at home and at work with LW as I can just take the dongle where I go, and my plugins which are registered to it can go with me too. It's a shame there have been some problems with hardware, but if you really consider the alternatives, (tying to hardware, network servers etc) this is really the best with the most freedom.

I love the dongle for those same reasons.

Phil
08-28-2006, 11:35 AM
Yes, another day of explaining at the production meeting that our brand new software we recieved doesnt have a bug, but is non functioning whatsoever with only a "will be fixed in the future sometime" explanation.

You know, after a bit of thought and listening to both sides of the dongle vs. non-dongle preferences I've come to this conclusion. It really doesnt matter at this point. Software screw-ups are bound to happen. The difference between a software company acting proffesional and not is the time it takes for them to resolve the issue. Do you think discreet would let something like this go on for this long?

frustrated,
RJ

Frustrated? That sounds......mild. I'd be livid in your position. NewTek certainly seems to be doing a lot of foot dragging in here, even if they are frantically trying to get something sorted out. The vague nature of the information coming out of NewTek also doesn't give great confidence. A line in the sand date for the delivery of a solution would be a reasonable request.

If there's any question at all that the red dongles are busted, why not nip this in the bud and ship everyone affected a purple dongle? If NewTek don't have dongles to hand, shipping a watermarked set of binaries with in-built timebomb would at least be something. Make it phone home if you have to, but taking the cash, shipping a product and letting weeks pass whilst knowing it is busted is pretty poor form.

abgrafx3d
08-28-2006, 11:43 AM
Frustrated? That sounds......mild. I'd be livid in your position. NewTek certainly seems to be doing a lot of foot dragging in here, even if they are frantically trying to get something sorted out. The vague nature of the information coming out of NewTek also doesn't give great confidence. A line in the sand date for the delivery of a solution would be a reasonable request.

If there's any question at all that the red dongles are busted, why not nip this in the bud and ship everyone affected a purple dongle? If NewTek don't have dongles to hand, shipping a watermarked set of binaries with in-built timebomb would at least be something. Make it phone home if you have to, but taking the cash, shipping a product and letting weeks pass whilst knowing it is busted is pretty poor form.

I agree. I've had the software since Aug 4 and had to come up will a work around to work on the project I bought it for. I don't have a previous version.

Come on Newtek - we need a firm date when the fix will be released!!!

Chilton
08-28-2006, 12:24 PM
Hi guys,

If the current installer I'm building now turns up no problems, we're gold. I'll know very soon.

-Chilton

Chilton
08-28-2006, 12:29 PM
See, that one had two .DS_Store files in the wrong place. Gotta do another build...

-Chilton

Chilton
08-28-2006, 12:37 PM
And *that* one had a missing dongle driver. Time to build another...

Chilton
08-28-2006, 12:48 PM
And one other .DS_Store out of sync. I know, I could just not include all of these, but we do actually want some of the icons in specific places. Even if there's some weird bug that is preventing them from always showing up right...

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 12:58 PM
Ive got my fingers crossed

Chilton
08-28-2006, 01:02 PM
Yeah, turns out the ds_store files are fine, they're not showing up, according to the PC installer though. Not too sure what's up there. At any rate, burning lucky #13 now..

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 01:08 PM
So once this is successful.. how long till the updates are in our accounts?

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Im assuming lucky #13 didnt go so well..

Chilton
08-28-2006, 03:06 PM
Yeah, not so lucky. #15 is being burned now...

-Chilton

Ryhnio
08-28-2006, 03:39 PM
i love having chilton on board!

GIVE THAT MAN A RAISE!

Darth Mole
08-28-2006, 03:42 PM
Hi, sorry, just got back in town (takes off coat). So, what have I missed...? Looks like... er, is there a new build of LW coming!?

Chilton
08-28-2006, 03:51 PM
#18 looks good so far...

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 03:52 PM
Agreed Chilton, you are working your ***** off. Please don't take anything personal.

So were up to 18... perhaps there is stil hope left ;)

Weepul
08-28-2006, 03:54 PM
A thread entitled 'brb' when a member won't be replying for a day...

Running updates on installer compiles...

Since when is it the company official who's treating the forum like a chatroom, rather than some annoying newbie? :lol: ;)

It's great to have you around, Chilton. :)

ShawnStovall
08-28-2006, 04:19 PM
A thread entitled 'brb' when a member won't be replying for a day...

Running updates on installer compiles...

Since when is it the company official who's treating the forum like a chatroom, rather than some annoying newbie? :lol: ;)

It's great to have you around, Chilton. :)

:agree:

Chilton
08-28-2006, 04:32 PM
Alright, build #18 is a winner.

I'll be back in a bit with more info.

-Chilton

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 04:33 PM
Sweet!

drolander
08-28-2006, 05:01 PM
I hope this build is good for Windows users as well.

ShawnStovall
08-28-2006, 05:11 PM
What exactly are these installers for?

Please say Beta...Please say Beta...

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 06:20 PM
Tick Tock... Tick.. Tock.. Tick... Tock :D

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 07:26 PM
sigh....

Chilton
08-28-2006, 07:51 PM
Hi Kevin,


sigh....

I had this weird feeling you were posting something while I was writing the new thread :D

-Chilton

xeno3d
08-28-2006, 07:55 PM
Read the new thread.....


Sounds cool.. I'll give them a call first thing i nthe am to get my fix... Thanks Chilton :)