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toonafish
08-22-2006, 11:01 AM
WTF is going on with 9, it's buggy as **** !

have been modeling in Modo most of the time lately, but need to do some quick animation. So I started the project in 9...the horror !

-modeler refuses to save objects because the "item is locked". Must restart Layout, Modeler and HUB to save the object.
-Layout does not save "Display SubPatch Level" settings in scene file.
-Catmull Clark SubD's make modeler crash with 30K poly object
-Camera does not read "Focal Length" envelope with multiple camera's in the scene unless the camera has a unique name.

and that's just after a days work.

it's gone from bad to worse.

sorry I'm pissed.

Carlovfx
08-22-2006, 11:08 AM
Yes,
there are a lot of bugs in this new version and i hope in a well done patch at soon as possible. The real problem with Catmull Clark is that are very heavy and i had a lot of problems with a Maya SUB-D model imported as OBJ in LW because those 2 SUB-D are not compatibles as someone said me. However i'm positive, with the code opening there will be a lot of great stuffs incoming.

bryphi7
08-22-2006, 11:14 AM
Wait until 5 days worth of work... It doesn't get better!

The state that NT released LW in is a complete joke. I can't believe that they felt it was OK to release this hack to people who have prepaid for their software and have already waited 6 months past the release date. They should be ashamed of themselves. If something isn't done soon to address the numerous bugs in LW I am pretty sure people will start to bail out completely and move on to other tools!

toonafish
08-22-2006, 11:38 AM
Just tried to render a single 30K character with classic SubD renderlevel set to 1.......takes the "optimized for high poly scenes" new perspective camera about a minute to even start rendering...."allocating segement memory' of 11 MB. When I set the SubD level to 3 it takes about 2 minutes to locate 90 MB.......mwhahahaha !

Fprime doesn't even flinch when I start it up.

sorry NT, but at least I get something out of this update this way.

umstitch
08-22-2006, 11:49 AM
..lw9 has been pretty stable for us, despite a few niggly issues, nothing that stops us rendering final output (so far).. my biggest gripe is that modeler crashes after editing plugins, and i do that a lot (just cant bring myself to trust the autoscan)

...also i can throw more than 30k cc polys around in modeler, you sure its not a memory/graphic card prob?

toonafish
08-22-2006, 12:37 PM
...also i can throw more than 30k cc polys around in modeler, you sure its not a memory/graphic card prob?

I'm happy 9 works for you.

I'm trying to get my character stuff done in XSI now.

I thought LW was a better choice for the simple stuff, but I'm afraid LW doesn't even have that advantage anymore.
I've had to figure out so many workarounds on some projects in 8.5 that I missed my deadline and I was hoping 9 would be better. But I'm just not in the mood to get burned again.

I'm working on a Dual Xeon with 4 Gig of memory and a Quadro FX 3400 that's been running very stable with Modo, XSI, Silo. So I'm quite sure it's not my system, but hey...stranger things have happened. But anyway, for now I've just had it with LW.

umstitch
08-22-2006, 04:38 PM
..if youre crashing layout or modeler with 30k cc polys, you have a problem.

i work in an office with 4 different lw installs, all on different machines (all on win xp), all dual core cpus all with different memory configs, all with nvidia cards.--none of them crash at 30k, i cant even make it happen on purpose.

usually when there is a major problem with lw, its almost always been the graphics card driver not playing nicely.

what driver are you using on your fx3400?

if you have an option for opengl multi threading, check if its set to auto or on, ive noticed this can cause cpu usage spikes and lockups sometimes, turn it off, see if that helps.

..good luck with getting your anim done:)

toonafish
08-22-2006, 06:28 PM
..good luck with getting your anim done:)


Thanks.

Just wondering; if you're working with 30K CC Subpatched objects and you load your scene. How do you prevent Layout from taking forever to load the scene when it goes back to a display Subpatch level of 3 every time ?

I even tried hacking the scene in a text editor and adding the SubD levels manualy which worked once, but saving teh scene removes my edit.

By the way, CC's don't crash on me all the time. It's just all them frustrating crashes, bugs and things simply not working in such a short timespan with "the most stable release ever" . I've just had it with all them promises and blah blah. After 10 years of using LW it's time to move on....again ;)

umstitch
08-23-2006, 03:52 AM
...have you tried keeping your object as regular polies, no sub ds, as you could save that scene (so that there is no subdividing at load up) and use the Toggle Subpatch in layout (the new feature) for when you are rendering/animating?

..i must admit that my only use of catmull clark to date has been to freeze polies in modeler before i use normal subpatch, which really helps with geometrizing some of those sparsely modeled shapes with ugly edges.

gl

(by the way im currently using driver version 91.33 (from http://www.laptopvideo2go.com/), its the most stable driver to date on my quadro 4000--{so far}, there is also the latest beta release 91.45, which is meant for quad sli, but it has many fixes for all nvidia cards, ive tried it , it works , but gives me a slow desktop context menu--which drives me mad..so i stuck with 91.33!)

voriax
08-23-2006, 06:20 PM
Thanks.

Just wondering; if you're working with 30K CC Subpatched objects and you load your scene. How do you prevent Layout from taking forever to load the scene when it goes back to a display Subpatch level of 3 every time ?



Is it possible you're having some kind of read/write permission problem when it comes to saving scenes or config files? I only mention this because you made a comment about modeler refusing to save something as well..?

As far as I know, I haven't seen anyone else with this problem, and haven't had this problem myself, either. (just checked)

toonafish
08-24-2006, 02:48 AM
I haven't seen anyone else with this problem, and haven't had this problem myself, either. (just checked)

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50858&highlight=locked

stevecullum
08-24-2006, 01:23 PM
I dont understand why some folk are having so much trouble and others like myself, no problems at all? I'm sure alot of stuff is driver related - I couldn't even open a scene in layout without crashing, before installing 91.33!

Since then, I've completed three full projects, with poly counts up to 9,000,000 and not run aground...yet!

Carlovfx
08-24-2006, 01:41 PM
I think we all have the last drivers for video cards, i'm not a expert so i don't know what's going on but there are a lot of problems with this new version and as Newtek Certified Training Center we have to give our students the most stable software. This is why we use 8.5 to teach at the moment, and it's not good.

ZeroPoint
08-24-2006, 01:53 PM
I had problems with LW9 using the 91.33 (beta) driver, so I rolled back to 91.31 and haven't had any problems since. I do agree that issues are more likely to be cause by drivers than by LW itself, at least that's my experience. There are many (myself included) who find LW9 to be quite stable.

bryphi7
08-24-2006, 02:07 PM
My problem isn't really about crashes, although I have had my share...

I am not able to load scenes that I was able to load in 8.5 do to the buffer mem error,
many of the tools are incomplete,
render speed increase is questionable,
nodes render very slow and cause me to crash on occasion,
plus a bunch of other stuff that I don't think was implemented nearly as well as it could have been, but would not be considered bugs.

I would just like to hear something from NT as to their schedule and plans for the 9X cycle. At this point I feel like they knowingly dropped this buggy software on us, and haven't made any statement as to what the plan to do about it!

What are we supposed to pretend that it is the most stable release ever... Because that is what I paid for!

gatz
08-24-2006, 04:11 PM
use the Toggle Subpatch in layout (the new feature)


Is this G-Toggle Subpatch? What exactly does it do? I see no visible result and I couldn't find a reference for it either PDF or web docs.

rg

umstitch
08-24-2006, 04:57 PM
its like hitting tab key in modeler:)

toonafish
08-24-2006, 05:12 PM
I dont understand why some folk are having so much trouble and others like myself, no problems at all? I'm sure alot of stuff is driver related - I couldn't even open a scene in layout without crashing, before installing 91.33!

Since then, I've completed three full projects, with poly counts up to 9,000,000 and not run aground...yet!


I think it all depends on what you use LW for. For certain jobs you might never use some features other people need on a daily basis. It's not so much driver problems or crashing that bugs me. The crashes are way less then in 8.5, but it's features not working and stuff I use a lot not improving.

Off course you can complete project with LW, I've managed to do that for years. It's just the way how, and the time involved. On some bigger recent jobs there was some stuff that took me days to find workarounds for that literaly took half an hour to setup in XSI.

While using 8.5 in spite of all the problems I promissed myself that I would quit using LW as my main app if 9 wouldn't be a big improvement. And for me 9 is not a big improvement, NT is still focussing on special FX with the new camera's, nodal and the renderer as they have always done. Which I'm sure is nice for some peeps, but not so much for me.

Character stuff has been neglected for many years now and I have not seen anything that makes me believe they will even focus on that and the modeler improvements are just too late too little. We've seen IK booster as an attempt to get some better tools for character animation, but to me it was a joke and NT forgot about it very fast just as they have with many tools that could have been usefull if they only would have been implemented properly and played nice with all the other tools.

hmm, I rambled on a little longer then intended...sorry

gatz
08-24-2006, 05:29 PM
its like hitting tab key in modeler:)

That's what I would expect. I guess it doesn't work on the Mac? That means I'm back on topic for the thread;)

rg

ItsPete
08-24-2006, 06:30 PM
is it ok to flame in here? :O (not a pick on gatz. post just wound up here after readin some others)

nthused
08-24-2006, 06:46 PM
A real shame you're having such problems toonafish. I've been using 9 from beta on - I find it's much more stable than 8.

Dell Precision 380
3GHz Dual Core
4GB RAM
Quadro 540
Win64

toonafish
08-25-2006, 10:46 AM
That's what I would expect. I guess it doesn't work on the Mac? That means I'm back on topic for the thread;)

rg

maybe you already know this, I'm not sure but I think you can only toggle SubD's if the object is converted to SubD's in modeler already. And the last time I checked it always toggles back to classic SubD's. So if you're using CC SubD's it might not do you any good..

umstitch
08-25-2006, 12:18 PM
maybe you already know this, I'm not sure but I think you can only toggle SubD's if the object is converted to SubD's in modeler already. And the last time I checked it always toggles back to classic SubD's. So if you're using CC SubD's it might not do you any good..


on pc at least you can indeed use the subpatch toggle on an un subd'd
object in layout, but yes that means normal subpatch subdividing..

gatz
08-25-2006, 12:50 PM
maybe you already know this, I'm not sure but I think you can only toggle SubD's if the object is converted to SubD's in modeler already. And the last time I checked it always toggles back to classic SubD's. So if you're using CC SubD's it might not do you any good..

That was part of it. Get this:

standard sub-D object -- works as advertised.

cc sub-D object -- doesn't toggle

mixed objects, a standard and a CC'd on the same layer -- doesn't toggle

mixed objects, a standard and a CC'd on separate layers -- if the CC'd layer is selected nothing happens. If the Standard object is selected, the CC'd object toggles. But when it toggles back to subpatch it's now standard. The CC'd (originally) object now toggles, but ONLY if the OTHER object is selected. The standard Sub-D (originally) never toggles regardless of the layer selected.

Strange...

rg

bryphi7
08-25-2006, 01:02 PM
That was part of it. Get this:

standard sub-D object -- works as advertised.

cc sub-D object -- doesn't toggle

mixed objects, a standard and a CC'd on the same layer -- doesn't toggle

mixed objects, a standard and a CC'd on separate layers -- if the CC'd layer is selected nothing happens. If the Standard object is selected, the CC'd object toggles. But when it toggles back to subpatch it's now standard. The CC'd (originally) object now toggles, but ONLY if the OTHER object is selected. The standard Sub-D (originally) never toggles regardless of the layer selected.

Strange...

rg

I stopped pushing that button during the beta due to unexpected results:screwy:


As I said... They should be ashamed of themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no excuse for things like that.

umstitch
08-25-2006, 01:30 PM
As I said... They should be ashamed of themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no excuse for things like that.

..things like what?

..implementing new features?

..give them the benefit of the doubt, im sure the updates for lw9 will smooth out all these little issues

..and it is indeed a little issue, certainly nothing to be ashamed about:stumped:

toonafishs issues with object saving and the other things he listed in his post,
are nt entirely reproducible on any of the machines i run, there are always multiple potential conflicts that can muddle the use of lightwave on any machine..if you re expecting newtek to find a perfect fix for that, then you re looking for a software epiphany, maybe try autodesk? softimage?..lots of others to choose from:dance:

bryphi7
08-25-2006, 02:10 PM
..things like what?

..implementing new features?

..give them the benefit of the doubt, im sure the updates for lw9 will smooth out all these little issues

..and it is indeed a little issue, certainly nothing to be ashamed about:stumped:
:

Yah... like I said half features that are poorly implemented...
Don't get me wrong, I have been using LW for a while and think its a great program, but I think NT fell short of what was needed.

sudac20
08-25-2006, 03:44 PM
Bugs galore for me as well (on several machines with different professional gfx cards in each) LW is starting to really slow my work process. I did not want to drop LW because the learning curve of a new App, but if things do not improve soon I will have to move on to another app (unfortunately)

Stjepanovic
08-26-2006, 09:06 PM
I am MAC user so all the XP-ers please excuse me. LW 8.5 Modeller's preformance is absymal compared to LW 9.0.0. It always chokes after doing 'drilling' as it keeps calucalting in infinite. When I use simple array with an object that has around 60 different polygons it crashes or it is imposible to model anything else since it takes minutes to rotate pan or do any basic step. When I transfer (if I manage) the obect into Layout no problems at all. I can orbit pan and move object without problems. So there must be a problem with the memory management or something else. I have 1.5 gig of RAM and 128 VRAM and this kind of setup yields excellent results with other 3D applications. Granted my processor is not of the finiest or the fastest but still it should not crash. On other hand I heard on the other forums that LW Layout performs poorly compared to LW 8.5. I have no proof of that yet.
Newtekrs if you are listening you have to do something about this.:cursin:

frantbk
08-27-2006, 06:48 AM
WTF is going on with 9, it's buggy as **** !

have been modeling in Modo most of the time lately, but need to do some quick animation. So I started the project in 9...the horror !

-modeler refuses to save objects because the "item is locked". Must restart Layout, Modeler and HUB to save the object.
-Layout does not save "Display SubPatch Level" settings in scene file.
-Catmull Clark SubD's make modeler crash with 30K poly object
-Camera does not read "Focal Length" envelope with multiple camera's in the scene unless the camera has a unique name.

and that's just after a days work.

it's gone from bad to worse.

sorry I'm pissed.

The only question I have is, did you build your models in modo and then import them into lightwave? If that is the case then I would look at modo as the first step in solving your problem. If this is the case I doubt it is Newtek's fault modo models don't import into lightwave properlly.

masterchief
08-27-2006, 07:27 AM
I am using LW9 on my 3gHZ gateway notebook, 1.2megs ram, 64meg intel graphics on the motherboard..... works great with no problems....

I am sending out scenes to BNR and working in LW at the same time. I do not have render farm... use BNR to manage all renderings.

regards,
William

bryphi7
08-27-2006, 10:55 AM
I am using LW9 on my 3gHZ gateway notebook, 1.2megs ram, 64meg intel graphics on the motherboard..... works great with no problems....

I am sending out scenes to BNR and working in LW at the same time. I do not have render farm... use BNR to manage all renderings.

regards,
William

Didn't know LW would run on 1.2megs of ram?

mkiii
08-27-2006, 12:08 PM
The only question I have is, did you build your models in modo and then import them into lightwave? If that is the case then I would look at modo as the first step in solving your problem. If this is the case I doubt it is Newtek's fault modo models don't import into lightwave properlly.

I think you'll find that he said he started the project in 9.0, so I presume that means that he modelled in 9.0 too?

Regardless of that. I have had no major problems moving meshes between Modo & Layout / Modeler.

The only minor issues I have had is importing LW models made in Modeler, that have certain textures applied, specifically, lw gradients.

toonafish
08-27-2006, 03:15 PM
The only question I have is, did you build your models in modo and then import them into lightwave? If that is the case then I would look at modo as the first step in solving your problem. If this is the case I doubt it is Newtek's fault modo models don't import into lightwave properlly.

besides the fact that it doesn't matter in what app you model your objects, it's just polygons, Modo has no part in this.

bryphi7
08-27-2006, 04:06 PM
didn't you guys know...
Its modo's fault LW is so buggy and hacked together.:D

Bog
08-27-2006, 04:26 PM
didn't you guys know...
Its modo's fault LW is so buggy and hacked together.

Talking codswallop again, Bri. It's Worley's fault.

Everyone else knew this. We just didn't tell you.

Insert irony overdose warning here

frantbk
08-28-2006, 06:31 AM
I think you'll find that he said he started the project in 9.0, so I presume that means that he modelled in 9.0 too?

Regardless of that. I have had no major problems moving meshes between Modo & Layout / Modeler.

The only minor issues I have had is importing LW models made in Modeler, that have certain textures applied, specifically, lw gradients.

I think you need to re-read his post. The first statement toonfish makes is that he has been working in modo. What would be the point of the modo comment at the begining of the post unless modo had something to do with the project?

If modo has nothing to do with the project then one can assume that it is a call to all modo fanboy's to come here and troll disrespect on Lightwave. If that is the case then Newtek should delete this thread because this thread has nothing to do with lightwave or any problem with lightwave.

Therefore what help will this thread be to any lightwave user? none Therefore, the value to the community is zero and can be considered a troll thread. :thumbsdow

frantbk
08-28-2006, 06:56 AM
besides the fact that it doesn't matter in what app you model your objects, it's just polygons, Modo has no part in this.

I think you had better do a search over at the Lux site. If you had you would know that there are known problems with modo models and lightwave and that Lux has, since modo 102, recommended that you freeze the model before importing it into lightwave.

Your statement "it's just polygons" tells me that you haven't done any research into your problem. Also after using the Lux search engine I can't find any post about your problem there and I haven't seen any prior post here about the problem, so I have to conclude that there really isn't a problem because you haven't made any effort to talk to either community prior to being pissed.

Lightwolf
08-28-2006, 07:05 AM
I think you had better do a search over at the Lux site.
Let me just answer in the same tone:
I think you'd better read his initial post again:
"So I started the project in 9..."

And from his post it is quite obvious that his problems are not related to modo at all... or Powerpoint for that matter ;)

It is not like LW doesn't have any problems, like any other tool out there does.

@toonafish
One question comes to mind here, is that 30k CCs before subdividing? You'll find that CCs drive up polycount a lot quicker with your SubD settings. If you have VBOs turned on in Layout, you might need to get a more recent nVidia driver as well.

Cheers,
Mike

masterchief
08-28-2006, 07:07 AM
Didn't know LW would run on 1.2megs of ram?

my bad..... 1.2gigs of ram

TomT
08-28-2006, 07:35 AM
Is this thread about Modo or LW?

masterchief
08-28-2006, 07:42 AM
Is this thread about Modo or LW?

hi tom,

some users prefer to model in modo, bringing it into layout for creating a scene.... modo does not have capabilities of layout.

regards.....

TomT
08-28-2006, 07:48 AM
Yep, I use Modo too . . . I just read some swipes at Lux--which prompted the question.

frantbk
08-28-2006, 12:08 PM
WTF is going on with 9, it's buggy as **** !

have been modeling in Modo most of the time lately, but need to do some quick animation. So I started the project in 9...the horror !

-modeler refuses to save objects because the "item is locked". Must restart Layout, Modeler and HUB to save the object.
-Layout does not save "Display SubPatch Level" settings in scene file.
-Catmull Clark SubD's make modeler crash with 30K poly object
-Camera does not read "Focal Length" envelope with multiple camera's in the scene unless the camera has a unique name.

and that's just after a days work.

it's gone from bad to worse.

sorry I'm pissed.

Toonfish's first post on page one. I get the tone of the post from the start. WTF, then toonfish talks about modo, and then he claims to have stated the project in lightwave.

This thread should be deleted because it is not about any problem with lightwave, it about modo fanboys (who still use lightwave) beating up on lightwave, this is a troll thread. If this thread were at lux's site, lux's new grade-school voting system would have at least 89 noise marks next to it alone with all the flaming comments that the modo fanboy clue could sling.

Toonfish hasn't and isn't looking for any help with his lightwave problem, this thread is all about flaming lightwave because Toonfish didn't do his homework about the problems between modo models and importing modo models into lightwave. :thumbsdow

bryphi7
08-28-2006, 01:01 PM
Toonfish's first post on page one. I get the tone of the post from the start. WTF, then toonfish talks about modo, and then he claims to have stated the project in lightwave.

This thread should be deleted because it is not about any problem with lightwave, it about modo fanboys (who still use lightwave) beating up on lightwave, this is a troll thread. If this thread were at lux's site, lux's new grade-school voting system would have at least 89 noise marks next to it alone with all the flaming comments that the modo fanboy clue could sling.

Toonfish hasn't and isn't looking for any help with his lightwave problem, this thread is all about flaming lightwave because Toonfish didn't do his homework about the problems between modo models and importing modo models into lightwave. :thumbsdow

I disagree...
I think this thread is about toonfish and others not being happy with the state that LW is in! I don't use Modo, so I am definitely not a Modo fanboy... The way I see it, NT should want to know about any problems that the users have with LW, so they can be addressed. What are you saying... we should all pretend that LW is perfectly fine the way that it is, and NT has no more work to do.

phillydee
08-28-2006, 01:06 PM
.. my biggest gripe is that modeler crashes after editing plugins, and i do that a lot (just cant bring myself to trust the autoscan)...

Same here--wondered if this was an issue with MY system or if other folks are also having issues with 'adding plugins' in modeler... I've been able to add them thru Layout but that's kind of a rough workaround IMO.

Add/Remove plugins causes modeler to crash on my machine on exit. Another funny problem I found is after I close the "add/remove plugins" panel, I go to create a ball or box, and it crashes then. :confused:

Will check on this further...

Stjepanovic
08-28-2006, 01:09 PM
To Toonafish

hey toona if you add some salad it might actualy work. Avoid onions and add lots of mayo for smooth operation. Besides modo does crash especially on the mac when using certian modelling functions. However it never chokes up like lw8.5 modeller when comes to basic staff like orbiting, paning etc. I do not recall exact scenarios but Support Dept. at Lux. gave an answer like this:' sorry you are having these problems we have never heard of them - I guess it's you or something you are doing.' Maybe too you should try something different besides using onions. ALso, there are many essential functions that Modo does not have and probably it's not their fault it's only at the third version. You should have asked your guys at Lux. to help you with your problem afterall they made LW7.0 & LW7.5

toonafish
08-28-2006, 01:38 PM
wow. always nice to get a fantkboy in to bump the thread up a few notches ;-)

to make some things clear, as I said before Modo is not part of the problem. Actualy most of the models are modeled in LW 8.5 or before.

Frantbk: even though I might look like one, I don't think you should go around calling peeps trolls just because they use or just mention Modo, XSI or any other app next to LW and want to get things off their chest.

But like I said, to modo or not to modo is not teh question. The freezing of Modo models you have been reading about Frantbk is probably related to edgeweights, CC SubD's and Ngons before LW 9.0 was released. I've used geometry from Modo, XSI, Max and other apps in LW without any problems before.

Lightwolf: thanks for the VBO tip, didn't check that one. The model is 30k before CC, I tried another model with 50K and after setting CC to 1 in modeler it worked fine. Not as fast as classic but okay. I'll have to check into this some more when I have the time, maybe the new CC's are much more sensitive to errors in geometry then classic SubD's.

thanks for all the attention peeps :D

08-28-2006, 02:18 PM
Just ignore him toonafish. FBK is pretty well known for being a troll himself in any forum he posts in. Nobody takes him seriously, I'd suggest you don't either.

John Jordan
08-28-2006, 06:46 PM
I have to disagree. I don't think LW is buggy but something isn't playing nice with it in some systems. I'd like to see the LW naysayers post a scene that we all can try and see what the results are. Seems we'd get a lot farther trying to solve the problem than just complaining. For example, I have been editing the plugins list in modeler and have had no crashes. None. Nada. Zip. I have never received the item is locked message either. Give me something I can work with and maybe I can reproduce it.
Could it be something else causing the problem on the other system? Possibly. But that wouldn't make much sense to complain about here.

I don't doubt LW has problems (specifically, I think the manuals are terrible with bad bookmarks etc.) but the problems I read about almost always seem to involve some VERY specific operation or combination of operations that often cannot be reproduced. I don't mean to say these people aren't experiencing problems but they seem to be in an anectdotal way, not as a group of people who gather together with a common problem. I wonder what they hope to accomplish just complaining about it without working with others to solve it.

phillydee
08-29-2006, 12:17 AM
...Could it be something else causing the problem on the other system? Possibly. But that wouldn't make much sense to complain about here....

Exactly, man... I've done a test where I reinstall LW, go to Modeler, and ONLY ADD 3rd party MODELER plugins, no problem. I've been narrowing it down to either a 3rd party nodal shader or a 3rd party layout related plugin. I know it's been fine before, as I've been able to edit plugins no prob up untill a FEW DAYS AGO.

In any case, I agree with you that this is probably system and/or plugin related and NOT the actual build of LW itself.

frantbk
08-29-2006, 07:24 AM
I disagree...
I think this thread is about toonfish and others not being happy with the state that LW is in! I don't use Modo, so I am definitely not a Modo fanboy... The way I see it, NT should want to know about any problems that the users have with LW, so they can be addressed. What are you saying... we should all pretend that LW is perfectly fine the way that it is, and NT has no more work to do.

I agree to disagree with everything you've just said. First I've never said lightwave wasn't buggy, every program has problems. The case here with toonfish has nothing to do with that. Toonfish doesn't want any help fixing his problem or helping Newtek fix any buges. Toonfish's WTF as his opening statement said more about what he wants to do, and that is piss on NewTek's lightwave product. Toonfish wasn't looking for help, he still is not looking for help with his problems because he hasn't provided any detailed information about any of the crashes he's suffered with lightwave.

For all I know he is running modo and lightwave at the same time. If you've spent any time running modo and lightwave at the same time you'll know that the two programs can cause each other problems. Because the Lux team worked on Lightwave and modo there is a strong connection between the two programs in how they handle memory and other functions. Lightwave and modo do interfere with one another and have done so since modo 102. I've seen the happen on mid-to-low end machines when I've run the two programs at the same time.

frantbk
08-29-2006, 07:35 AM
wow. always nice to get a fantkboy in to bump the thread up a few notches ;-)

to make some things clear, as I said before Modo is not part of the problem. Actualy most of the models are modeled in LW 8.5 or before.

Frantbk: even though I might look like one, I don't think you should go around calling peeps trolls just because they use or just mention Modo, XSI or any other app next to LW and want to get things off their chest.

But like I said, to modo or not to modo is not teh question. The freezing of Modo models you have been reading about Frantbk is probably related to edgeweights, CC SubD's and Ngons before LW 9.0 was released. I've used geometry from Modo, XSI, Max and other apps in LW without any problems before.

Lightwolf: thanks for the VBO tip, didn't check that one. The model is 30k before CC, I tried another model with 50K and after setting CC to 1 in modeler it worked fine. Not as fast as classic but okay. I'll have to check into this some more when I have the time, maybe the new CC's are much more sensitive to errors in geometry then classic SubD's.

thanks for all the attention peeps :D

If modo has nothing to do with it then why did you feel you had to state the you've worked been working in modo? If it has nothing to do with the problem then it was useless information. You had a reason for putting in the post. Also I said if you're not looking for any help to your problem then this is a troll thread and should be deleted. You stated in your first post that you switched to XSI and dropped lightwave on the project, so yo've moved onto another app. you haven't posted the 3oK models that crash lightwave so none of the lightwave users can try and recreate the problem.

Show me the value of you thread? It doesn't help anyone, it doesn't even help you solve your problems, it doesn't help NewTek track down the problem. Therefore, this thread can be seen as a piss on lgihtwave thread and that makes it a troll thread; there is no value to anyone but the people that want to beatup on lightwave.

frantbk
08-29-2006, 07:42 AM
Exactly, man... I've done a test where I reinstall LW, go to Modeler, and ONLY ADD 3rd party MODELER plugins, no problem. I've been narrowing it down to either a 3rd party nodal shader or a 3rd party layout related plugin. I know it's been fine before, as I've been able to edit plugins no prob up untill a FEW DAYS AGO.

In any case, I agree with you that this is probably system and/or plugin related and NOT the actual build of LW itself.

That's what I'm saying, Toonfish hasn't given us enough information to build a theory around what is causing his crashes with lightwave. Everything Toonfish has posted is general, no specifices what good is that?

Lightwolf
08-29-2006, 08:19 AM
<flame on>

Toonfish's WTF as his opening statement said more about what he wants to do, and that is piss on NewTek's lightwave product.

I honestly don't know what you're reading into this, but WTF is quite a common acronym, used by foreign speakers as well (and even popular in other languages, as is ASAP for example). And WTF can mean quite a lot.
To be frank (well, actually you are + tb ;) ) your first post in this thread is far more hostile than anything toonfish posted.


Toonfish wasn't looking for help, he still is not looking for help with his problems because he hasn't provided any detailed information about any of the crashes he's suffered with lightwave.

So, why did he accept it when I offered advice then?


For all I know he is running modo and lightwave at the same time.
For all I know he is running iTunes at the same time, which can cause problems too. He has problems with LW and all you do is flame him. Shame on you.
Maybe we can't help him with all the issues, but imho we should at least offer advice as much as we can.

<flame off>

Cheers,
Mike

frantbk
08-29-2006, 09:26 AM
Well I'm sure there is a group of lightwave users that have said to themselves "WTF toonfish, if you took the time you've wasted on modo and applied it to lightwave you would not have missed your deadline!" the fact that your not up to speed on lightwave isn't lightwave's fault.

Toonfish now states their is a mix of models that are and are not lightwave built. The only thing missing from that infoirmation is if Toonfish tried running lightwave with only the lightwave models and did it crash. Did Toonfish then remove all of the lightwave models and try running lightwave with only the none-lightwave built models to see if lightwave ran, or crashed.

If the lightwave models don't crash lightwave then he has one problem solve. So, if the lightwave models aren't the problem, and the none-lightwave models aren't the problem (by themselves) then he would add two of the none-built lightwave models to the scene to see if a crash happens, then another two, and then another two until a crash happened, or it became buggy. Did Toonfish do any of that to trouble shoot his problem?

Toonfish doesn't say what he's done to find out what is causing the problem, nor did he ask for any help in his first post, all he stated is that he went to XSI and dropped lightwave. He didn't ask for any help in his first post.

Some of this sounds like Toonfish isn't up to speed on some issue in lightwave, that's not lightwave's or NewTek's problem, and that is not flaming anyone that is just stating what looks like the facts of the problem.

Lightwolf
08-29-2006, 10:31 AM
Well I'm sure there is a group of lightwave users that have said to themselves "WTF toonfish, if you took the time you've wasted on modo and applied it to lightwave you would not have missed your deadline!" the fact that your not up to speed on lightwave isn't lightwave's fault.

Why don't you check up on toonfish? He's been creating quality work in LW for ages, and has no need whatsoever to prove his "rep". Not only that, but he's been quite active and helpful in the forum (oh, and check out the numerous LW tutes on his homepage). Why you choose to flame him is beyond me.
Cheers,
Mike

Carlovfx
08-29-2006, 11:06 AM
I'm dying for laughing... please stop that all! This discussion is great! ^_^

Stooch
08-29-2006, 11:31 AM
Talking codswallop again, Bri. It's Worley's fault.

Everyone else knew this. We just didn't tell you.

Insert irony overdose warning here

actually i blame bush for it.

toonafish
08-29-2006, 01:11 PM
Why don't you check up on toonfish? He's been creating quality work in LW for ages, and has no need whatsoever to prove his "rep". Not only that, but he's been quite active and helpful in the forum (oh, and check out the numerous LW tutes on his homepage). Why you choose to flame him is beyond me.
Cheers,
Mike

thanks for coming to my defense Lightwolf, I feel all warm and fuzzy now :D

now please peeps, move on, I get the feeling this thread is going in circles.

ufo3d
08-29-2006, 01:17 PM
how long will it take for next update? Those bugs such as modeler cannot launch are very annoying, delete the LWHUB9.CFG can fix it though.
will we see modelling tools in layout in next update? this is one of the main feature that we bought LW9, but we don't have any further info.

gareee
08-29-2006, 01:28 PM
It's only been 5-6 weeks since LW9's "gold" release.... you expect a reply from them so soon? ;)

bryphi7
08-29-2006, 01:53 PM
I too would like to hear their schedule and plans to clean up the mess, not that it would be anymore trust worthy then their release date, but it might make me feel a little better if I thought they had some sort of plan...

UnCommonGrafx
08-29-2006, 03:08 PM
Hey toonafish,
Apparently, there's a 3:1 ratio when comparing sds and cc. That is to say, as you have found, that at a level of 3 for subds you can get the same (or better) with ccs at 1.
Drove ME nuts for a while until this was explained. EVERY render I tried crashed. And modelling with them was ... intolerable.

Here's my complaint about it: why not have some trapcode in there so that LW doesn't commit suicide everytime you surpass the unknown poly limit.

Can't say that I've had nearly as many problems as you've had but I can say that the ones I've had have (and still) annoy me to no end. I am (as always) optimistically looking forward to the next revision.

Lightwolf
08-29-2006, 03:18 PM
thanks for coming to my defense Lightwolf, I feel all warm and fuzzy now :D

:o You're welcome. Not that you'd need any of it.

I just know how you feel... I've had LW break on me in crunch quite a few times as well... and a WTF would sometimes be a polite expression of my mumblings - all of this after 14 years of :lwicon: ;)

Mind you, I've had the same app behave wonderfully a couple of days later on a different project...

Cheers,
Mike

frantbk
08-29-2006, 03:22 PM
If you guys are so helpfull, then help me out, I haven't heard what type of machines and OS' you're running on.

It might be because Toonfish has done so much work with older version of Lightwave that he is having his problems. I know lightwave 7, but that doesn't mean I know or understand the new function in 9, nor do I think I could just jump into lightwave 9 and have it work 98%. There is a learning curve, everything I've heard from Toonfish is that he is not up to speed on the new functions.

Why should NewTek be ashamed of Lightwave 9 when all I see is a guy that is not up to speed on using the new functions? It doesn't matter what Toonfish has done in the past with older version of lightwave if he isn't up to speed on the new functions. That person is at square one when operating the tools. I don't care what Toonfish has done in the past, he's talking about Lightwave 9 and if he isn't up to speed on the tools then why should I, or anyone else trust what he has to say?

Lightwolf
08-29-2006, 03:35 PM
If you guys are so helpfull, then help me out, I haven't heard what type of machines and OS' you're running on.

How about anything from PPC OSX to intel/AMDs on XP or W2K? (at least in my case).
So, what is your problem then? Tell us so we can help you.

No issues here, but I don't dare use CCs in production either... (I hardly use new tools in production, unless they prove to be stable).


There is a learning curve, everything I've heard from Toonfish is that he is not up to speed on the new functions.

He is stumbling across problems with the new functions, and from reading this forum and others he's not the only one either. A RTFPDF might help here, but honestly, who really does that?

If you mean by "not up to speed" - "not aware of all the pitfalls and workarounds" - right on. Few of us are, and this is one reason we're here. If he rants - so be it, his points are just as valid.

As for the ashamed bit... can I say CCs and Edges? There are still plenty of issues that are either not clearly documented... or not mentioned at all and just don't work as expected (other work rather well I may add).

I just don't see the point in completely invalidating his entire post because he _mentions_ (no more, and no less) another app.

Cheers,
Mike

UnCommonGrafx
08-29-2006, 03:53 PM
Actually Frantbk,
Because he IS up to speed with the older versions and the interface to lw hasn't changed a bit, he is as good a candidate for finding problems than many. The fact that he's giving the new features a shot is a positive; that so much is still undone with these feature (cc and edges) is not so positive.

I really do like the 'new atmosphere' where we can be a little more honest (blunt, if you'd like) with each other and not have to soft-shoe our stomping about in rage. NewTek can only benefit from such comments... as long as they act on them.

My own observation here is that the thread originator spoke of only the new features being an issue. I think that's great considering all that COULD be wrong. That is to say, they, NewTek, have fixed a lot of niggling and old bugs. And more to come.

Please don't try to silence the critics as that is a disservice to NewTek and the community toward our getting "The Goods" in future revisions.

OT: Frantbk, your posts read like mine when I started 'round here. Negatives about NewTek and their products, when taken personally, can lead you to insanity. ;) Be careful of your battles fought on this front. And trust that if this were a problemed post that Mr. Baker would be here, front and center, to clarify and moderate.
As it is, this is a post from a disgruntled, long-time user. It's worth the time to listen to his concerns and problems with LW. Fixing these things could make it that much more useful for others.

juli51
08-30-2006, 08:35 AM
To toonafish:

Hallo, I will go direct to the thing, based on your experience and what I have read of you. I have my LW 8.5 running in my G5 and Im looking forward to buy a new Mac G5 Corel Duo, if you have a LW v9 running in a Mac G5 Corel Duo, could you please confirm me that it's running ok like in the old G5's. or tell me something about your experience wich could improve me to buy it?. Apart from your problems with modo etc...

I would be very please to have an answer from you.

Juli51

frantbk
08-30-2006, 10:06 AM
There's a difference with being blunt about tools in lightwave and saying NewTek should be ashamed of lightwave 9. If you are going to take that as a vaild rant then Luxology should be ashamed of the modo 201 release and give its modo users $400.00 back.:thumbsup: :agree:

I can sit here and rant about anything and everything about lightwave that doesn't mean my rant is valid. Everyone here knows that lightwave 9 is a product in transition, so at some point a rant has to be valid, or invalid based on a reasonable level of expectation by the users ranting.

Once you start ranting then the listerns have a right to question the vaildation of you rant base on reasonable expectation. :agree:

I don't agree with Toonfish's original rant because it is beyond a level of reasonable expectation for lightwave 9 and where NewTek intends lightwave to be later. Anyone knocking modo is always told that modo is a work in progress, so your wrong if you knock down modo. That's the same for lightwave 9, lightwave 9 is not the complete product NewTek intends it to be and will not be until lightwave 10 or 11.

If you can cut modo slack for being an unfinished product, then you should be able to cut lightwave 9 the same slack.

UnCommonGrafx
08-30-2006, 10:28 AM
I disagree.

I will not be using modo for any of my work but what they have accomplished with their knowledge of lw-like code has been astounding. If you know my history, that statement should be a jaw-dropper. ;)

Toonafish's comments are completely valid, regardless of your feelings.

Please stop with the modo issue. It is an overly beat horse around here and need not be dwelled upon further. However, if you really are trying to get this thread closed, go for it.

Also, re-read this thread to see who made the "ashamed" statement; you seem to have lost track of who said what.

A wip or not, it still needs work. Heck, they've (NewTek) said the same thing!
So, give this thread a break. Valid points abound.

UnCommonGrafx
08-30-2006, 11:02 AM
And to add, check out Dave's math in this thread:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55342
render subpatch level - Crashing - NewTek Discussions

TheDude
08-30-2006, 11:54 AM
When NT offered their 9 upgrade (with the usual free stuff to distract you from the fact that you wouldn't actually get the upgrade for a year), I resisted and am still resisting.
I don't want that "open a Christmas pressie only to find it's a pair of socks" feeling which I got after I installed 8.
I'm gonna wait till 9.5 (or 9.3 anyway) and then see how it's looking (if there's a demo version)...unless I've bought somthing else by then of course.

If people want to complain about the software that they've paid their hard earned money for, I don't see a problem with that. Well there is one problem...if NT aren't listening and doing something about it.

As for the bug / technical issues with 9, perhaps NT could provide an "approved list" for hardware and driver combinations. Then at least we'd all know what to aim for.

TomT
08-30-2006, 04:02 PM
I will not be using modo for any of my work but what they have accomplished with their knowledge of lw-like code has been astounding. If you know my history, that statement should be a jaw-dropper. ;)
My jaw hit the floor . . .

frantbk
08-30-2006, 04:04 PM
When NT offered their 9 upgrade (with the usual free stuff to distract you from the fact that you wouldn't actually get the upgrade for a year), I resisted and am still resisting.
I don't want that "open a Christmas pressie only to find it's a pair of socks" feeling which I got after I installed 8.
I'm gonna wait till 9.5 (or 9.3 anyway) and then see how it's looking (if there's a demo version)...unless I've bought somthing else by then of course.

If people want to complain about the software that they've paid their hard earned money for, I don't see a problem with that. Well there is one problem...if NT aren't listening and doing something about it.

As for the bug / technical issues with 9, perhaps NT could provide an "approved list" for hardware and driver combinations. Then at least we'd all know what to aim for.

So if the company buys it you have no complaint? If you pass the cost off to the customer then you have no complaint? I can get behind that, that means 70% of the people here will have nothing to complain about.

frantbk
08-30-2006, 04:17 PM
Please stop with the modo issue. It is an overly beat horse around here and need not be dwelled upon further. However, if you really are trying to get this thread closed, go for it.


Toonfish is a modo user, before he stated anything about lightwave in his first post. It is not about dwelling on modo but putting into perpective why I don't support Toonfish's rant on lightwave.

UnCommonGrafx
08-30-2006, 04:46 PM
Fella,
You should look at some of his former posts. You also seem to be ignoring history for your purposes.



Again, this thread isn't about you or why you don't believe in what he has stated; this thread is about functionality in LW that doesn't work as expected or worse, crashes lw, all while doing the right thing with the software.

Person's in this thread are multi-application users: maya, xsi, 3dmax, zbrush, hex, Imagine (when the need arises), etc. The mention of one doesn't invalidate comments about LW functionality.

Stay focused on the above, my friend, as the ad hominem route is inappropriate and is complaint worthy. Stick to the issues as that is where your strength would lie in making a valid point.

TheDude
08-31-2006, 04:42 AM
So if the company buys it you have no complaint? If you pass the cost off to the customer then you have no complaint? I can get behind that, that means 70% of the people here will have nothing to complain about.

errrrrr what...

If I was asked to use software that was unreliable and buggy, I would complain about it. Regardless if I had paid for it or my employer (I assume that's what you mean). I would then expect my employer to complain to the vendor and seek a solution.

If someone buys a product and it doesn't work properly, then they have every right to complain about it and seek a solution from the supplier.

If I bought a car and the engine kept cutting out suddenly, I would go and complain to the dealer/manufacturer (maybe I'd have to get the bus). I would not expect them to say "run a complete set of tests on the engine yourself, diagnose the problem and then tell us exactly what the problem is, document a solution and then we'll look into fixing it". If they did I would be tempted to insert the car into one of their technical staff.
Why should software be treated any differently from any other commercial product? If an individual or company buys the software, it makes no difference.

I'm making a general point here because I haven't upgraded to 9, but I can understand why users of 9 who're not having a great experience with it would want to vent some frustration here on the forums. Especially those who have upgraded (yet again) hoping this version would be "the one".

frantbk
08-31-2006, 05:45 AM
For all I know some of the guys complaining about lightwave could be running G series Macs. The history of the Mac verison of lightwave has a history of problems. Currently Apple is in the process of switching to Intel chips. Is it reasonable to expect a perfect build of lightwave for powerPC chips,..no.

Reasonable expectations is to say that NewTek did not spend hundreds of manhours cleaning up all of the problems of the powerPC verison of lightwave because the cost was greater then the return. The Mac users will probably be 85-90% switched by the fourth quarter of 2007 to the new Intel systems with the cost of the upgrade pushed off on the customer. what would be the point of a 100% clean build on the powerPC series?

I would complain to my boss if others were having the same problems with the software. If you complain too many times when others haven't had the problems with the software then make you look like the problem and not the software. It is a slippery slope complaining about company purchases of new equipment.

I look at lightwve as a tool, not as a future wife, so there is no such thing as the "one."

TheDude
08-31-2006, 07:37 AM
I look at lightwve as a tool, not as a future wife, so there is no such thing as the "one."

Exactly, LW is a tool. It should be reliable, well manufactured and capable of doing the job.
As for "the one" I was referring to a version of LW that has finally turned into a tool that has others casting a jealous glance rather than a snigger.
Wouldn't mind a future wife like that either...

frantbk
09-01-2006, 07:09 AM
I hear ya about the wife. THere are enough people out there making content with lightwave. Has lightwave lost ground over the last few years,..sure. A lot of bad management has hurt lightwave since verison 5. and you can tell that the people developing back then lost control and direction of the lightwave product. You know the old saying sometimes you have to hit the bottom so you know where the top is.

lwaddict
09-01-2006, 07:23 AM
No problems with 9 here, yet.

And I'm using it at my 9-5 for biotech simulations, marketing content, at my home office creating special fx shots as a side gig, and generally just trying to catch up on all the new features.

No crashes though.

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 09:12 AM
Back to the original topic, I just have to vent today. Christ! I run into a new bug every 5 minutes. It's unusable! LW 9 is about 10 minutes away from flying out the window on fire.

Lighwave used to be one of my few fun programs that pretty much did what it was supposed to do and was remarkably bug free. Now it's the complete opposite. Almost every function has a bug. I've used Lightwave since it was born but this is close to the end of the line for me. I sure hope they get it together soon. I understand it's huge challenge but my god this is bad.

Back to 8.3 for me since it sort of worked ok.

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 09:20 AM
Curious: whatchya working on that is causing the crashes?

stevecullum
09-01-2006, 09:35 AM
I've been using LW9 solid since release, no crashes (Ok the odd one), errors or any major workflow problems to speak of. Can you give me an example of a bug you have run into? I'll see if I can replicate it here...

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 09:36 AM
Curious: whatchya working on that is causing the crashes?
It's a Pentium D, 2gig, WinXPpro, Nvidia 7800GTX. It doesn't matter what projects I work on, it's an endless stream of undexpected problems. The computer is fine, I've never had a more stable system and every other package works great on it, including competing 3D programs.

My latest problem is the same one a LOT of others are having, Modeler won't start (obviously a hub problem). It was working fine yesterday. Nothing has changed. This has been around a long time and no fix!

Before that, (still a MAJOR issue) is openGL in modeler randomly changes color on surfaces! Seriously confusing. I've tried every driver under the sun. Other OpenGL programs work perfectly.

And before that...and before that...It would take a week to write it all down. I've reported all these bugs but nothing ever gets fixed. When they claim they fix a bug, it's still there along with 5 others. Can't use it in a production environment where time is of essence any more.

On top of that all the speed claims are seriously exagerated. Seems as though they made speed increases and then discovered that precision wasn't as good and render errors showed up. So now we've gone back to about the same, only there's a truckload of render bugs still there!!

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 10:08 AM
I've been using LW9 solid since release, no crashes (Ok the odd one), errors or any major workflow problems to speak of. Can you give me an example of a bug you have run into? I'll see if I can replicate it here...
Here is a simple object I made to display the bug in modeler opengl. The object has 2 layers. Layer 1 has a box and a ball. Layer 2 has just the ball. The ball has a blue surface. The box a red surface. The ball was copied from layer 2 to layer 1. Now both the ball and the box are red in layer 1. Nothing I do in opengl settings or surface editor will make it display correctly. If send it to layout, it displays fine.

You can imagine how much of a problem this is on any complex model.

LW 8.3 works. Modo works. Layout works. I've tried every available driver. I've reported the bug with no response (typical).

Here's a link to the object:

http:/www.creativecontrol.ca/Test/openglerror.lwo

Let me know if it shows up for you, thanks!

stevecullum
09-01-2006, 10:45 AM
Could you upload a zip file instead, becasue I can't link to the LWO for some reason. I'm getting access denied in the test folder..cheers!

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 10:50 AM
Yeah, that's a no-no unless it's in an ftp site as one doesn't have a chance/choice to download as opposed to displaying the lwo as text.


The reason we can't do it here in line is because you left out a slash... hmmm
http://www.creativecontrol.ca/Test/openglerror.lwo
Now, let's all try that one.

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 10:53 AM
Ok, got it.
Now, what's the question?

You either need a new card or updated drivers. No problem seeing red and blue in layer one.

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 10:55 AM
Sorry, here's a zipped file.

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 10:56 AM
Ok, got it.
Now, what's the question?

You either need a new card or updated drivers. No problem seeing red and blue in layer one.

I can't explain why everything else works. Even 8.3.

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 10:59 AM
Because they've changed things in 9 would be my guess. I had to upgrade my card with 9 so you may have to, as well.

stevecullum
09-01-2006, 11:06 AM
No issue I can see, which suggests a driver problem or something else.

Which drivers/GFX card do you use?

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 11:11 AM
Here's a prime example of a render bug that has never been fixed.

Image one is glass with the perspective camera (which appears OK).

Image two is with the classic camera (which should be the same as v8 right?) Oops! Glass looks like it's been hit with a hammer.

By the way, while I was creating this sample my layout reverted to default config settings. No apparent reason. Christ!!!

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 11:13 AM
Because they've changed things in 9 would be my guess. I had to upgrade my card with 9 so you may have to, as well.
Obviously there is a problem here. I can't just run out and buy a new card just for LW though. Just not an option right now and even if it was, it's obviously a LW bug since everything else works.

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 11:14 AM
No issue I can see, which suggests a driver problem or something else.

Which drivers/GFX card do you use?

Thanks for checking. I guess I'll blunder along until I can figure this out.

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 11:15 AM
I'm only responding because you've labelled it a 'bug' when it clearly isn't.

Go for the other option: update your driver.

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 11:42 AM
My man,
Some of the notes for lw's release will do you good.

Another thing that's been "fixed" is this issue. Apparently, it's been wrong all before now. :confused: :foreheads To that end, comparisons with 8 SHOULD NOT look the same.




Here's prime example of a render bug that has never been fixed.

Image one is glass with the perspective camera (which appears OK).

Image two is with the classic camera (which should be the same as v8 right?) Oops! Glass looks like it's been hit with a hammer.

By the way, while I was creating this sample my layout reverted to default config settings. No apperent reason. Christ!!!

creativecontrol
09-01-2006, 12:33 PM
My man,
Some of the notes for lw's release will do you good.

Another thing that's been "fixed" is this issue. Apparently, it's been wrong all before now. :confused: :foreheads To that end, comparisons with 8 SHOULD NOT look the same.


I'm puzzled. "Fixing it" makes it look like this? If that's the case, LW should stop fixing things ASAP. The point I'm trying to make is the sample I sent is not usable. It is clearly a major bug present through most of the beta cycle.

I know LW is an hugely complicated program and It's amazing it can be done at all. One the other hand, people looking to buy V9 should know it's current state. I took a willing chance and bought early and went throught the open beta cycle. What I saw was LW getting further and further away from being usable, not closer, and then it was released! I know they need to make a buck but that doesn't make the current V9 a usable product. Others may have had different experiences.

I could keep listing and showing examples of very serious issues but what's the point, they've all been reported many times. I love LW as a package. I just hope to god they can hammer it into shape. Soon.

TheDude
09-01-2006, 12:35 PM
I'm only responding because you've labelled it a 'bug' when it clearly isn't.


Wow, you must be one **** of a programmer to be able to decide what is and isn't a bug -just like that.
Incompatibility with an existing driver actually IS a bug IMHO anyway.
Don't NT do any compatibility testing? Games work on many different cards, there's no excuse for LW not to.

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 01:02 PM
My personal wish:
That we all bite into this puppy like a bull dog and don't let go until things are better.

Another way of saying it: Squeak Squeak SQUEAK until some greasin' comes along!


For myself, I have things on the VT side that I haven't been as tenacious about because it seemed I was talking to the wall. The walls have spoken, about to give us a new product and with some of the old complaints still astride.

I, too, want the NextGen product that LW has been slated to become. So don't get me wrong in my conversation: I'm not trying to be a fanboy or protector. Moreso a devil's advocate for any and all sides.

UnCommonGrafx
09-01-2006, 02:07 PM
You, too, must be to declare that I'm wrong.

:D

Calls for an older set, e.g., 1.4 ogl, may upset a newer set, e.g., 1.5 ogl. That's computer 202 kinda stuff, as I see it.

Truly, this is fun stuff for conversation. But, I neither can fix the problems nor talk them into being better for others. I can make suggestions that have been made on these same forums that have been fixes for others. If that doesn't work for you, I make no apologies for that.



Wow, you must be one **** of a programmer to be able to decide what is and isn't a bug -just like that.

frantbk
09-01-2006, 07:07 PM
Hmmm? Well the holiday's here you guys have a good one. :agree:

lwaddict
09-01-2006, 10:45 PM
Just finished a 20 shot project which included major hypervoxel particle setups...biotech simulations with loads of dynamic setups that needed to interact...and some fun logo splash type stuff...not a single crash.

And hey, to the guy who's about to toss Lightwave out the window...I won't argue with you. Just tell me where the building is so I can catch that free copy.

Mine has paid for itself 5 times over and then some...and that was before the final release. Can't wait to add up what's happened since. :)

Everyone have an awesome weekend...
I've gotta spend some of mine going through ZBrush tuts.
After finally figuring out how to get the displacement maps and textures to work...I want to spend more time developing my sculpting skills with that bad boy.

LWAddict (Lightwaver since version 5)

TheDude
09-02-2006, 04:18 AM
You, too, must be to declare that I'm wrong.

:D

Yeah, maybe we should write V10... :hey:

The real problem I've seen in this thread tho, is when people say they've reported the problem to NT tech support and then they've had no response.I've had the same experience, (although I think they have improved a bit) hardly a professional approach to customer support.
I'm happy for you guys who've never had a problem with LW, but you'll only really find out how good a company is when you need their support in solving an issue...and at some point you will have a problem with LW, just like any other app. Then you'll find out how good NT are...or are not...

P.S. No weekend off here...still got my nose pressed up against a hot monitor hoping LW will render tonight....but if you're off, have a good one :thumbsup:

UnCommonGrafx
09-02-2006, 05:54 AM
That almost made me spit coffee on the monitor. It only hit the keyboard though. heeheee

Yeah, I know what you mean. Last night, went to bed early because LW wasn't being cooperative: node stuff. As has been reported, mucking about with the node editor and many renders will set you up for multiple crashes.

Never said I didn't have problems. But I scour these and other boards to get answers from the likes of you guys as I think the community is stronger at answering the odd question than tech support might be. For those things that P me Off, I try to get in touch with Deuce. Beyond that, I wait, with a grrr in my throat, for the next iteration to hit my hd.

Last night I had a Toonafish moment. ;) See if I can coin a phrase. ;)

frantbk
09-02-2006, 07:20 AM
Yeah, maybe we should write V10... :hey:

The real problem I've seen in this thread tho, is when people say they've reported the problem to NT tech support and then they've had no response.I've had the same experience, (although I think they have improved a bit) hardly a professional approach to customer support.
I'm happy for you guys who've never had a problem with LW, but you'll only really find out how good a company is when you need their support in solving an issue...and at some point you will have a problem with LW, just like any other app. Then you'll find out how good NT are...or are not...

P.S. No weekend off here...still got my nose pressed up against a hot monitor hoping LW will render tonight....but if you're off, have a good one :thumbsup:

Sorry about the no three day weekend. NewTek doesn't seem to be the only company that has poor customer support, that company by the guy that use to work here have just as many complaints leveled at them. I think what we're seeing is the current standard in the industry (thats not a god thing). Maybe it is because the price of the product, I don't know.

The question is, is NewTek staying the course and will Newtek deliver a better product in the next release; or will they just dump new functions on the program and call it a day.

lwaddict
09-02-2006, 08:55 AM
I've had issues in the past, not so much with Lightwave itself, but the Video Toaster (which is rocking now but wasn't always so).

I'm also one of the lead admins at my 9-5 and understand that in certain environments it's easier to figure out what's wrong...and the cooperation of the end user is a must.

ie. I've got a few offsite users who insisted on buying or building their own systems and they, more often than the rest, have issues that nobody else or not too many are having...hmm. Hardware? They won't accept that will they? Nope? Config? Oh **** no, they know what they're doing. Manual? Forget about it. LOL.

My thing isn't tech support so much as I see people come to the boards, complain about issues, but then they don't want to help us help them. Questions have to be answered. Sometimes over and still over again.

Then, while some are trying to help them and still others are not, they focus or vent they're frustration on those who are taunting them...well, that's life folks, not everyone's going to want to help you but you're missing out on those that do.

There's a lot of very LW savvy people on these boards who like to help but instead the frustrated end-user will focus on, "Lightwave is trash", "Tech support sucks", "Life could be better", "Why is this turkey sandwich so dry", "my life is ****", "whaaaa whuaaaa".

We just recently let a guy go at work who liked to roll over when he couldn't figure something out. Bye bye.

Ask for help.
Stay cool.
Listen.
Teach what you know.

Oh, and drink heavily when there's time for it.

John Jordan
09-02-2006, 09:15 AM
lwaddict,
You took the words right out of my mouth. I sympathize with some of the problems I'm reading about but can't understand the mindset of "If it's happening to me, it MUST be a bug. It can't be my setup or me."
I don't know of any software the runs 100-percent compatible, with 100 percent of all possible PC and Mac configurations, right out of the box. The only way to make that happen is to make it the lowest common denominator compatible.

Repeating over and over that "Lightwave sucks" solves nothing. Post the problem. If possible, post a scene so we may try and reproduce the results you're getting. This is one of the most helpful boards (this and Spinquad) and I've solved lots of problems just from reading what is here.

bryphi7
09-02-2006, 11:28 AM
My prob isn't stability... It is that my definition of a complete fully functional feature is way different then NT's.

lwaddict
09-02-2006, 01:35 PM
Oh my...
I guess Ultra 2 sucks.

I've been having a problem on one system forever...
the drop shadow, for more believable compositing, just wasn't working.

I posted on their board about this months ago...
I called them, or tried to...
still no solution.

They suck.

Got an email last night pointing out that my video card was probably the weakest link on that PC's power chain...swapped it out.

Oh my...
I suck.

And the problem apparently was listed online, in the docs, and other surreal places I would never go to...:jester:

TheDude
09-03-2006, 07:00 AM
I think a LOT of LW "bugs" could be solved if they published a list of qualified hardware and drivers instead of the general "Open GL2.0, 64 MB per display etc.." recommendations.
I used to use SGI machines. Yes they were expensive, but because the hardware was tested with every release (Softimage,Alias, etc...(never used LW on an SGI tho)), you could be pretty sure it'd work. If there were issues they were usually able to track them down pretty quick too.
I'd say hardware vendors would even help NT with this because they'd want to be included in the qualified list.
Not everyone would want to have to use a qualified machine, but if you've got deadlines and make a living from LW, I think an extra few quids for a "tested" potentially more reliable machine would not be such a big issue. (Assuming of course that a bug is in fact a hardware / driver issue).

Actually I'd be interested to know if people still using SGI machines generally have less (hardware) bug issues than those of us on PC / Mac

John Jordan
09-03-2006, 07:09 AM
TheDude,

That's a great idea that I could certainly get behind. Recommended hardware/setups would sure save a lot of headache and heartache when it comes to getting the most out of programs as complicated as this and other 3D apps.

I hope Newtek will read this and follow up.

avkills
09-03-2006, 08:56 AM
Downloaded your box/cube object and I am also having no issues with colors. Running on a Mac though (3.5GB, X800). I've personally found that this version is the most stable version I've run, but I did disable the HUB which was causing lots of instability.

If you could ZIP that airplane scene I'd love to see that render problem myself; as of yet I have not really seen any differences between Classic and Perspective other than Perspective not rendering single or 2 point polys. Of course the big difference from my experience is that the perspective camera can be up to 5 times faster when you have boatloads of polygons and ray-tracing.

-mark

creativecontrol
09-08-2006, 08:15 AM
Downloaded your box/cube object and I am also having no issues with colors. Running on a Mac though (3.5GB, X800). I've personally found that this version is the most stable version I've run, but I did disable the HUB which was causing lots of instability.


If you could ZIP that airplane scene I'd love to see that render problem myself; as of yet I have not really seen any differences between Classic and Perspective other than Perspective not rendering single or 2 point polys. Of course the big difference from my experience is that the perspective camera can be up to 5 times faster when you have boatloads of polygons and ray-tracing.

-mark


I've found that the opengl error is caused by the presence of Adobe Acrobat 3D! I guess this is one that's not LW's fault.


As for the rendering issue. It's still there. I can't zip this file because it's huge and still a project I can't release. At least one camera works! Thank goodness we have two.

dirtydog
09-09-2006, 05:30 PM
Hi everybody
Just bought lw9 and agree that it is bug ridden, for a high profile product that has been going for a long time its a big disapointment, spreadsheet crashes, plugins, popups paint layoutwhen moved:thumbsdow and i cant register at the europe site because it wont(cant) accept my serial number. At the price its a fantastic value:lightwave but i second your call for a technical forum for lw9

UnCommonGrafx
09-09-2006, 07:25 PM
)*(^*%^()*%(^%(%) *%)*&%)*&%^ )(*&____ ___ ____)&*^ *%(&^ %(*%^) *&% ^O*&^

Losing work from checking one's plugin list is irking me no end. I'm up to about 10 hours of work lost because of this. Generally, I just go on to something else but this was more work lost than I can stand. Mr. Cheery is not happy.

grumble grumble grumble
Just venting...

stevecullum
09-10-2006, 04:58 AM
How did you lose so much work in one go?

I always save incremental now, so worst it gets is maybe an hour or so. But I've felt your pain in the past though when modeler crashed during an attempted save with a model I was working on. The file was then dead, along with 13 hours of modeling. :cursin:

UnCommonGrafx
09-10-2006, 08:26 AM
No no no,
Not in one go; accumulatively, I've lost that much. I, too, save incrementally but I can only admit to getting into the flow and trusting that the app won't crash such that the first hour or so of modelling, I don't save. See, modeler was always the stable one. Checking plugins and crashing is what's killing me.

And that's a conservative number. Often, I just go to bed because it's late. This time, it was just annoying.

A one shot crash that takes out a model is ... maddening, to say the least.

stevecullum
09-10-2006, 09:22 AM
Ahh.. not so bad then! Still pretty poor losing ANY work though!

dmurallo
10-07-2006, 08:44 PM
Bugs galore for me as well (on several machines with different professional gfx cards in each) LW is starting to really slow my work process. I did not want to drop LW because the learning curve of a new App, but if things do not improve soon I will have to move on to another app (unfortunately)

I agree. We have two seats. One is OK so far. The one I work on is having problems. I think that it has to do with memory. I have one scene with about 300 textures (271 in one model). I had everything loaded in Layout. I changed a surface in the one with 271 textures and saved it in Layout. Now when I open the scene, it says, "can't open file". Can't open it in modeler either.

I eventually found someone with 7.5. The scene and objects loaded fine there. Once I resaved the object in 7.5, I could use it again in 9. Now I need to use this work around whenever I am modifying a surface. What should take 2 seconds now takes 5 minutes. Not good Newtek.

This has taken a huge toll on production.

Drocket
10-12-2006, 03:38 AM
Hi Everyone,

New LW owner here (still waiting for it to be delivered though I used early versions many years ago).

I just wanted to say one of the reasons I am now using Macs is that there are usually a limited number of manufacturers that need to be factored in for software compatibility which usually makes a platform more stable.

I have been a software developer for longer than I care to remember and you just have to look at Windows (and Linux for that matter) on the number of combinations of different pieces of hardware that they have to test with to make sure they are compatible, it is mind boggling.

I understand (I have not used it yet) that the Mac version of LW has issues (and we are waiting for the universal binary version) but it is easier to test the different combinations (because there are fewer) than it is for the Windows platform.

You do need to take into account memory having potential problems, a case in point is a colleague (a few years back now) had an issue with one of the applications we were developing and randomly it would crash, we finally figured out it was always the same spot in memory (the OS was loading it into this memory position). We switched the ram from a spare machine and the error disappeared, it turned out to be one of the ram chips was goosed.

My point being that just because other applications are working doesn't mean it isn't a hardware problem.

Thanks,

Drocket.

G3D
11-07-2006, 12:43 AM
I have to agree with some of the posts about instability. It crashes constantly on the Mac and the PC. On the PC I've had crashes from even Shift-X to make a box. Adding plugins causes crashes on both the Mac and the PC. Pre-render evaluation of Sub-Ds (not CC) is much, much slower under 9x than 8.3 or 8.5. I recently did some film res work for a movie. I started the work in 9x, but during a test run, I found render errors all over the place using LWSN. I used part of a render farm consisting of about 10 random PCs out of 60+ machines at work. The results looked like the errors in the airplane canopy renders several posts ago. Had to use 8.5 for the final render. I find weirdness and bugs on an hourly basis with LW 9x. I wish I could use 9x ... the node editor and what it might offer for normal mapping and APS displacement look promising, but with crashes averaging 5 per hour, its pretty tough. What annoys me the most is that the beta versions I used were much more stable than the final release.
I'll probably sign up for the 9.2 beta, and I'm happy they are releasing a new version quickly, but this is making me weary.

Anyway, I look forward to the future release with both modeler and layout consolodated, but with a "Classic Modeler" button for olde tyme sake, everything node based unless you don't want to use nodes, support for external renderers, and true micropoly displacement.