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Rick Hall
08-21-2006, 10:50 PM
I just upgraded to an Athlon 4800+ 4 gigs of ram and Windows xp64. I'm not getting the 2.5x increase in rendering over 8.5. The computer feels like I just went from 8.5 to 9.0 in 32 bit. I thought xp64 and lw9 would be significantly faster.

Rick

StereoMike
08-22-2006, 12:05 AM
You will see more speed increases the more complex your scenes are.
That applies to lw9.0 when using the perspective camera, cause the new render engine has some sorting and organizing computations going on that _really_ speed big scenes up, but maybe just add some seconds to simple scenes.
I don't want to change back: nearly all of my stuff renders faster, and I could even add details to simple scenes without the impact it had in pre-9 times.

Another thing: lw64 will also perform better with complex and big scenes.
Maybe you won't notice a speed increase at all with regular scenes: do your test scenes touch the limits of lw32 (max 1.7 gb used by lw)? That's where lw64 starts to shine.
I get speed increases way before that boundary, but not as much as what I get with using the perspective camera.

Mike

jin choung
08-22-2006, 12:37 AM
actually,

i think that most of the 64bit stuff may be a bit overblown/overhyped.

in computer engineering terms, isn't the PRIMARY ADVANTAGE of being able to handle larger numbers (64bit numbers vs. 32 in this case) SIMPLY THE ABILITY TO ADDRESS MORE MEMORY?

and if i'm not mistaken, it also incurs some penalties.

if there are performance advantages to be gained, it's likely gained from OTHER optimizations implemented as they advanced the tech this time out.
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and the other shoe waiting to drop on that is that if you don't have more memory (>4gigs) isn't it true that you are unlikely to see much performance gain from a 64 bit architecture?

and this would not be the 'fault' of lw64 but win64 and indeed, any 64 bit app....

?

jin

digital verve
08-22-2006, 12:56 AM
I just upgraded to an Athlon 4800+ 4 gigs of ram and Windows xp64. I'm not getting the 2.5x increase in rendering over 8.5. The computer feels like I just went from 8.5 to 9.0 in 32 bit. I thought xp64 and lw9 would be significantly faster.

Rick

64bit is more about being able to use much larger data than speed increase. So a high poly complex scene which would choke on a 32 bit system, would run fine on a 64bit system. The speed increase comes from the usability in being able to handle complex memory hungry objects and scenes, which would otherwise be difficult or impossible on 32bit.

StereoMike
08-22-2006, 02:31 AM
And win32 can only handle 2gig what gives roughly 1.7gb for an app like LW. That's what I heard. Thus, the advantages begin with everything above 2 gig.

Mike

DogBoy
08-22-2006, 02:59 AM
Um, no. Win 32 can handle 4GB of memory (just, it has to fudge the highest area as it is reserved for use by system resources), but by default 2GB will be for OS and 2GB for applications. You can use the /3GB switch in the boot parameters to make it work as 1GB for System and 3GB for apps, but unless the application is written to allow access to large memory access it will still not be able to access more then 2GB.

LW is one of those applications that can access more RAM. So your best bet (in an ideal world) is to run LW32 on XP64 if you only have 4GB of RAM, as LW64 can't access more RAM then LW32 in that instance. As I daid that is in an ideal world, in reality your BIOS may limit you to using less RAM for LW32, as there is a setting designed for 32bit OSes that makes memory non-contiguous, which (I've been told) can cause the application to get stuck with 2GB or less.

Personally I'd use only LW64 if I didn't need to access a bunch of 32bit plugins :thumbsdow

Ztreem
08-22-2006, 03:03 AM
I got a nice speed increase on my system when I tested the radiositybox benchmark scene.
System specs: AMD Athlon 64 x2 3800+ ,Geforce 6600GT 256Mb AGP, 1 Gb RAM.

I rendered the scene in both 32 and 64 bit and the 64 bit's version of LW was 6 minutes faster on the same system with only 1 gig RAM. Render time was about 23(32 bit) and 17(64bit) minutes. I should also mention that I used the perspective camera.

StereoMike
08-22-2006, 03:09 AM
Ah, now I know more. I thought these 2gb were a general limit and not per app, thanks for making that clear.
And being honest, I never understood what the dfx installation instructions wanted with that "3gb switch", thanks to you I even understand this now :)

I use lw64 only for final renderings, and only in some cases ( if no 32bit plugs are needed and if I can get some speed increase) .
Has anybody used 64bit modeler? Better response?

Mike

vashts
08-22-2006, 03:16 AM
lightwave v9 x64 is better in mostly cases than lightwave v9 x32.. I've made some benchmarks for lwita.com comparing different versions of lightwave, so I can say it for sure. if you want to see how much lw64 is better, you can look at the article at http://www.lwita.com/articles/lightwave_v900/articolo.php?pag=index01 (obviously, it's in italian, but graphs are.. well.. internationals :D )

vashts

DogBoy
08-22-2006, 03:21 AM
I use 64bit modeler most of the time. I'm trying to ween myself off it, as it doesn't really give you much, except a lack or 3rd party plugs. Though once I get my head around LWCAD2 I may change my mind.

Once we get the improved OpenGL, maybe it will become more useful, as it suffers the same issues 32bit modeler does- it is only as fast as it can display. As it uses the same engine as 32bit it slows down at around the same time. At least in my experience.

BTW. I was wrong about only being able to access 4GB in 32bit Windows. You can actually access more, Windows 2K Advanced Server can have 8GB or more using the /PAE switch. How it does it is pure voodoo, but it can do it.

silverlw
08-22-2006, 07:40 AM
One aspect that i dont think anyone here mentioned is that a 64bit cpu (amd) have more registers than an 32bit cpu (amd&intel). It is way faster to store data in a register than being forced to write/read to normal memory. I think thats the speed increase we see in the Italian benchmarks 32 vs 64bit. Modern cpu arhitecture as x87 32bit have 8 80-bit registers and AMD64 use 16 128-bit wide registers. Primary and secondary caches is also larger but can be used in both 32bit & 64bit afaik. So the benefits of using 64bit os and cpu is NOT only that we can adress more memory.

Intuition
08-22-2006, 01:53 PM
The main reason I was happy about the opteron release was that you could get a dual core processer and also obtain a mobo that had two to four processer slots.

I am finally getting a computer with dual processer where each processer has dual cores next week. This is where I think 64bit really shines.

To just get a 64bit proc is to allow yourself to use more ram then 32bit but to get the speed increases you are going to want to get dual procs or a dual core proc or a combination of both. Then turn on the multithreading and watch the fireworks.

RedBull
08-22-2006, 02:12 PM
One aspect that i dont think anyone here mentioned is that a 64bit cpu (amd) have more registers than an 32bit cpu (amd&intel). It is way faster to store data in a register than being forced to write/read to normal memory. I think thats the speed increase we see in the Italian benchmarks 32 vs 64bit. Modern cpu arhitecture as x87 32bit have 8 80-bit registers and AMD64 use 16 128-bit wide registers. Primary and secondary caches is also larger but can be used in both 32bit & 64bit afaik. So the benefits of using 64bit os and cpu is NOT only that we can adress more memory.

Indeed, there are other optimizations that 64bit offers over just memory overheads, and most 64bit applications have shown up to 20-30% over there 32bit counterpart. C4D, LW and XSI all show a similar results..
Although i'm sure it's specific to application the amount of optimizations that can be performed.

The original poster seems to be confused with the 2.5x speed increase.
That increase is in LW9-32/64 bit editions over the equivalent LW8.5.

It's generally the perspective camer that is 2.5x faster than LW8.5,
and not LW964 as such....... Generally you will get faster results on LW64
that are faster, but usually less than the 20% range i mentioned.

lots
08-22-2006, 06:05 PM
Having used LW64bit since the first release of it (8.5) I can say with some confidence, that there is very little difference in speed between the two on light to medium scenes. LW does not appear to have much in the way of Optimizations going on for its 64bit version. By optimizations, I mean the code has been "freed" of legacy support for older hardware (since anyone running a 64bit machine is running brand new hardware :P). C4D is one of the most notable 64bit releases as its 64bit version is able to gain a good amount from 64bit.

Additionally, since more memory is available to a 64bit system (no longer limited to 4GB, but rather 128GB), you no longer get a slow down or a crash when your scenes are larger than the memory limit of a 32bit OS. In this case, 64bit Lightwave is potentially infinately faster than 32bit, just because its able to compute the scenes :P

davedunn
08-22-2006, 07:26 PM
After loading LW 64 and fighting with 32 bit plugins, I have finally shrugged and downloaded the 32 bit version. At least Dynamite loads now ...

DogBoy
08-23-2006, 02:00 AM
After loading LW 64 and fighting with 32 bit plugins, I have finally shrugged and downloaded the 32 bit version. At least Dynamite loads now ...

??? There is no fighting to be done. 32bit plugs just don't work. End of story.

At least IFW and LWCAD are 64bit now. I just wish Worley would pull his finger out o' his posterior and compile FPrime for 64bit :hey: .

lots
08-24-2006, 08:56 PM
32bit plugins dont work in 64bit LW (as mentioned above) because in order for LW64bit to be 64bit, it needs to run in a completly 64bit environment, meaning no 32bit code. This excludes pretty much most plugins availble. LW isn't the only software with this problem, XSI and C4D both suffer the same problem.

Though, 64bit plugin support has been improving. There are definately more 64bit plugins these days as opposed to when 8.5 went 64bit...

nthused
08-24-2006, 09:25 PM
I love running my LW64. The ONLY pain is lack of FPrime - so I usually model in 64 with the new LWCAD tools, surface and light in 32, and, if I need the extra memory, go back to 64 to render.

64 is not here for "light" scenes - but for "heavy" ones. You'll see no (or VERY little) performance increase with 64 on normal scenes. That said, with larger and larger image maps and more meshy-detailed models demanded by clients - 64 will become the norm.