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Emmanuel
08-18-2006, 04:18 PM
Yo,

when will we get displacement painting ? There's now three apps, even four if You cinsider Artisan that let me paint displacements.When will I be able to create rotting zombie heads in modeler ?

Bog
08-18-2006, 05:07 PM
Airbrush Morphs, lad. It's like Displacement Painting, but it's a shorter name.

T-Light
08-18-2006, 05:37 PM
Bog -

Airbrush Morphs, lad. It's like Displacement Painting, but it's a shorter name.
Now come along young Mr Bog, you know fine well it would take a Cray to get airbrush morphs working as fast as ZBrush :D

Bog
08-18-2006, 05:50 PM
Now come along young Mr Bog, you know fine well it would take a Cray to get airbrush morphs working as fast as ZBrush

Action. Adventure. Excitement. OpenGL refresh rates.

A Jedi cares not for these things.

When tranquil. At peace. GPU belching flames. Then his powers are strongest.

T-Light
08-18-2006, 06:56 PM
Luke, use the Hex...
It is you desssstiny.
Go on, You KNOW you want to.

Hey nodal just crashed on me, that's a first, see what you've done :D

sculptactive
08-19-2006, 12:01 AM
If you can hang on get Mudbox when it is released.

BazC
08-19-2006, 12:24 AM
Silo2 beta is out and the displacement painting is sweeeeeeet, dirt cheap too.

bluerider
08-19-2006, 03:11 AM
If you can hang on get Mudbox when it is released.

Yes please, I want to play with that toy!

cresshead
08-19-2006, 04:00 AM
..'when'....mudbox is released...just when is when....2006...2007?
and 'how much'.....same as z brush? or will the hype machine try n put it on a higher price bracket to make it look 'better'

the idea of offering beta versions is all nice n dandy but then only letting the eleite few actually get on the beta just smells of a app that will be overpriced and only for the few studios who can afford it....

time will tell....currently it 'feels' like what happened to the brazil renderer for max...promises of a cheap, quality renderer for 3dsmax..then when crunchtime came it was priced pretty high and with only a couple of render nodes built in and render packs [4cpus at a time] if you wanted to use it on a network...still..in the end max users got a decent upgrad for scanline plus unlimited mentalray...

mudbox....you can sell a few at a high price to those who can afford it
or you can sell a buckt load to many who want to get into this type of modeling but are looking for somwething more approachable than z brush....

sculptactive
08-19-2006, 06:55 AM
Mudbox, IMO, is the most overhyped 3d software to date

There will be one or two people eating their words on it's release.


In an ideal world Displacement Painting would be in LW 9 + but I won't be holding my breath, so IMHO unless your a blind ZBrush fanatic who thinks the dreadful UI is wonderful, the minute MudBox is released most people like me who only use ZB for it's Displacement/Normal Mapping to LW, will be jumping ship even if MudBox is twice the price.

cresshead
08-19-2006, 07:09 AM
i hope your right, i really do!

would be nice to have a reasonably priced, powerrful, hi poly capable 3d interface displacement painter that can match the main areas of strength of z brush 2.5....with mudbox...or maybe z brush 2.5 will have a better u.i. to combat mudbox....adn will mudbox have buidling blocks similar to z sphere modeling or will you need to make a base mesh in max, maya, lw etc?

so many unanswered questions currently..including the price...if it ends up being 795 then z brush will be my option not mudbox

all depends on if the 'hype' can turn into a cohesive set of features that MORE than match upto z brush 2.5 [not 2.0]

stee

Emmanuel
08-19-2006, 07:26 AM
Is Silo2 as good as they say with displacement Painting/modelling ?

cresshead
08-19-2006, 07:28 AM
i've just got the beta...will install later on today...after lunch!...ohh..lunch!!!
yum yum!

might get time to make a look arund video...we'll see!

James Edwards
08-19-2006, 07:36 AM
If mudbox is overhyped it is because of all the potential users freaking out about it on message boards. Everyone who wants either a cheaper or more user friendly sculpting tool is chomping at the bit to get at it. Skymatter have done no advertising and barely any press coverage of their own so it's not their problem.

This app will sell itself when it hits because it lives up to everyone's expectations of what it should do. It's not an instant 'make art' solution or major revolution. It merely takes a straightforward approach to UI and sculpting tools and provides users a more familiar environment to do such work in. That's it, and that's all skymatter really claims it can do.

Also, you're wrong about them handpicking artists. Their private beta was massive compared to most software I've used. As much as they hand picked amazing artists to put their tool to the test (like any company with a good tool should do), they offered it up to game and film studios for full use in their pipelines so that they could put it to the test in production environments.

On top of that they opened up the beta to the general public, so there are a huge variety of users who have legitimate access to this software, not to mention all the pirates, after someone leaked it.

I've seen just as much crap work done with mudbox as I have with Zb and Hex, but for obvious reasons, Skymatter is only showcasing the best work done with Mudbox... which is understandable don't you think?

theo
08-20-2006, 08:18 PM
Frankly, software hype is just plain exhausting anymore.

And to assume that SkyMatter is somehow innocent in all of this is somewhat naive (not meant as a personal attack). If they were truly interested in NOT hyping this soft then the beta-testers would have been forced to keep their mouths shut until release. There is not a thread on Mudbox online, I betcha, where a beta tester or two isn't lending some fume to the fertilizer.

If the hype is created 2-4 months before final release that I can dig but to hype software for months on end is purely satanic in my view and needs to be relegated quickly to a fate befitting pet rocks and comb-overs.

If Mudbox comes out before the end of this year I am probably going to buy. If it comes out in Spring of 2007 then out of pure hatred for the hype malignancy I am spending my lettuce elsewhere.

That's all.

RedBull
08-20-2006, 09:14 PM
If Mudbox comes out before the end of this year I am probably going to buy. If it comes out in Spring of 2007 then out of pure hatred for the hype malignancy I am spending my lettuce elsewhere.

That's all.

I'm a bit like that myself these days, Mudbox is overhyped and the company is already advertising it on CGTalk. Without any clear knowlesdge of a release date.

NT and Lux showed their flagship release at last years Siggraph, but only managed to release it just before this years. That kind of pre-hype will never wash with me..... And both companies lost some credit as a result.
Silo2 has also been hyped for way too long, to the point where i know it's cool, but i just don't care anymore.

Honestly so amazed it took others so long to take up displacement painting,
it was obvious from Zbrush from the first time i used it (before 2.0) that it was a unique way doing things, but that interface sucked.
Now years later Zbrush devs were caught without any tangible update, and now others are finally delivering what it already should of.

So this isn't a surprise, but yeah Overhyping and hyping too far in advance has shown in marketing terms to be determental to the succsess of a product.
And definately turns me off fairly quickly these days.

cresshead
08-20-2006, 09:37 PM
been using silo 2 beta today..it's painting response seems faster than that of hex but there are crashes and screen drawing erors occasionally...which is to be expected with a beta..as with hex silo can loadup image files for brushes the tools seem quite good though there's a limited preset pallete...which you of course can add your own to..

on the whole i've got on better with hexagon so far, but it's early days and silo IS beta so i'll try some more modeling...but just save often.

mudbox maybe cool but i'm getting itchy feet!...this displacement painting stuff is cool and z brush currently rules the roost with THE BEST set of tools CURRENTLY available...i'll wait till october before i go buy either Z Brush or if it's out Mudbox...that's if the price is good and the app actually delivers on the hype so far!

lilrayray77
08-21-2006, 06:55 AM
Just a little confused, is mudbox just displacement painting or does it also do modeling?

Dodgy
08-21-2006, 07:09 AM
Does anyone know when ZB2.5 is out? MB will stay off my harddrive as I own ZB, and it looks like they might have sorted out the workflow issues, as well as giving me some nice extra features for free. I just wanna be able to USE those features!

sculptactive
08-21-2006, 07:50 AM
Just a little confused, is mudbox just displacement painting or does it also do modeling?

In MudBox Ver1 when released, I believe you will be able to Model your own object within Mudbox or import an object with UV Maps and create Displacement/Normal Maps in 3D perspective.
I guess with later versions they will include Texture Map Painting etc.

If you want a complete 3d package then Zbrush is your answer, but if you are like me and have Lightwave then you only need the Mapping parts and MudBox is your answer.

If I say more it will only sound like hype, even if it's true.

08-21-2006, 08:30 AM
Frankly, software hype is just plain exhausting anymore.

And to assume that SkyMatter is somehow innocent in all of this is somewhat naive (not meant as a personal attack). If they were truly interested in NOT hyping this soft then the beta-testers would have been forced to keep their mouths shut until release. There is not a thread on Mudbox online, I betcha, where a beta tester or two isn't lending some fume to the fertilizer.


Who said anything about innocent? So they can't even get a bit of the word out about their product so that at least someone will buy it on the first day of shipping???

I find it difficult to take any offense to your comment on my naivety when you seem to be the naive one when it comes to how the real world works. Nobody said they weren't interested in hyping their product. But the truth is that it is the end users and wannabe users that are doing all the hype. If you don't like that then stop reading discussion forums where all of that 'hype' is occurring. Simple. But don't blame Skymatter for that.

So they don't have an exact release date. They do have a rough projection or 'desired' ship date. You can read into that and turn it into some exact declaration and hate on them all you want, but that's all you creating your own anguish. I guess LW 9 shipping a year after it was announced and releasing videos or press releases really p1ssed you off if you are making such a big deal out of Mudbox.

I for one have very much enjoyed using MudBox for the last few months even in it's beta state, and I certainly have no problem stating so. Skymatter have a good product and in exchange for allowing me to take part in the beta I almost feel obligated to praise it (because it actually deserves it, and not because they asked me). People talk about good software regardless of what the developers do or say. That helps sell it, and I see nothing wrong with that.

You have the option of tuning out. Exercise it.

sculptactive
08-21-2006, 09:12 AM
Dodgy

I'm in the same positon as you with ZB, but it won't stop me getting MudBox, it's that good.

Oh no more hype!

theo
08-21-2006, 07:48 PM
Who said anything about innocent? So they can't even get a bit of the word out about their product so that at least someone will buy it on the first day of shipping???

C'mon let's not go overboard here. My statement was part truth part tongue-in-cheek.

To get back the gist of my comment earlier in the thread. This whole Mudbox orgy may well be warranted but if this nonsense drags on and on for another year the name Mudbox will literally be in the mud box.

There is a marketing reality to hype and the reality is that people have limits to anticipation. After the anticipation limit is reached and not satiated another reality sets in and this one is not as nice as the previous.

If Skymatter can see Mudbox being released next June they need to rein in the hype machine or its going to do more damage than good.

This is the point of my post: If Mudbox gets hyped too much and then gets released extremely late there will be consequences. And what they need to do is rein in these screaming beta testers until release date GETS LOCKED IN.

A beta-tester's appreciation, love and adoration of Mudbox means absolutely nothing to me as this is stated due to obligation (as is also stated in your post).

People that are beta-testing software should be controlled, period. And it is painfully obvious to me that Mudbox isn't in control of theirs. They need to exercise this control or it may end up biting them in the mud, that is IF Mudbox gets released next Spring.

Hopefully the ZBrush upgrade will be out before then.

James Edwards
08-22-2006, 06:27 AM
You and every other beta-tester will esentially have wasted my time, as they already have, IF the soft gets released next spring or summer. Your appreciation, love and adoration of Mudbox means absolutley nothing to me as you have already stated you feel obligated to state this since they are allowing you to use their product in a beta state.

Like I said before, feel free to not read posts or threads about mudbox or sculpting then. You are wasting your own time - even posting here. Nobody here or elsewhere is forcing you to do that.

You can also continue to think in terms of 'what if' or 'maybe' and make all the projections you want about a failed launch or a missed ship date, but again, that is you wasting your own time of your own free will. I prefer to think in the here and now and use the tools I have available to me. The future can stay in the future and it'll get here when it does. Till then I'm happy with what I've got.


People that are beta-testing software should be controlled, period. And it is painfully obvious to me that Mudbox isn't in control of theirs. They need to exercise this control or it may end up biting them in the mud.

How are they not being controlled? Aside from the fact that some retard leaked the beta and violated their contract with Skymatter (which can and has happened to everyone at some point), beta testers have been very reserved about communication regarding the software, including images they release. Skymatter specified that no aspect of the UI should be shown in images, but otherwise artists should feel free to showcase their work publically. And nobody is talking up a storm about features or aspects of the program that Skymatter doesn't want known.

I think you've pretty much missed the point as far as mudbox goes in all of this. Skymatter doesn't have a product on the market yet. They literally have to go from nothing, to getting a fair amount of sales in order to start to recoup R&D costs. This is exactly where Zbrush was at one point before version 2 arrived. It was an unknown, and the only info people had came from beta testers and imagery that showcased the product. That 'hype' had more to do with Zbrush's huge success and almost overnight integration into many studio pipelines than anything else.

The fact that people are excited about their software before it becomes available is a good thing. You obviously disagree, but no matter what you think, this is going to sell the software for them when it is released and if they don't have to spend huge amounts to market Mudbox due to pre-release hype then they'll be even better off.

If I had a product this hot of my own I'd be doing the exact same thing that skymatter has done in order to get it to market. I'd much rather have a large potential user base waiting with anticipation for my product than a large potential user base that just doesn't care. That's when you have to go and spend a lot of money to make people aware of the product through marketing.

As it is now, Mudbox is already going to be hitting the market with a fierce competitor (Zbrush) as Pixologic are clearly not going to give up market share easily. They have a kickass solution in 2.5 to keep people from defecting from the user base which also happens to be free for them. All they need to do is release it around the same time (preferably sooner) than mudbox. So again, whatever hype is generated now will only be a good thing for Skymatter in the long run.

People don't get bored of a product that they have a real need for, no matter how long they have to wait for it. They may get bored of hearing about it, but the need for the software still remains and that will still help sell it, even a year from now.

cyatic
08-22-2006, 03:05 PM
Silo 2, hmmm.... Well, here's my take on that. I for one love it. I've been playing with it for the last couple of days. I think it's awesome, considering it's a beta. I tried a couple of alpha maps (you can use alpha's too), I love, love it. Looks to be coming along nicely. AND, if you buy from now till the release, you get Silo 1.42, and the FREE upgrade to Silo 2 when it's finally released. You also get to play with the beta. Take a look at this link and you can see what can be done with an app that costs, $109. I also liked the intuative interface. I think this program compliments LW9 very good. :thumbsup:

http://www.silo3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6806

Cyatic

cresshead
08-22-2006, 03:09 PM
that doesn't always ring so true...remember the ever so long gestation period of sumatra [xsi]..by the time i came out nr all fx studios had moved on to maya...which is where they are STILL today...

people will not wait forever...no matter how good it is in theroy...they need tools...now-ish!..they have work to do remember!

mudbox still has a couple of months leeway...same with z brush 2.5...but there's others who are now making displacement apps such as silo2 and hexagon plus i'd guess there's a few more in the wings [modo maybe..maya 9...max 10...cinema 12! who knows!!]

the window of opportunity is open...many z brush users are glancing into mudbox...but they'll turn back to work if they have to wait oo long and just get on with it in z brush!


i have a sneeky feeling that the long wait will result in a much higher priced app than z brush...probably double the cost of z brush2.5 and maybe they are waiting for ZB2.5 to be released...

who knows?

James Edwards
08-22-2006, 04:48 PM
People and pipelines will gravitate towards the tools that save them time and money and that make them the most productive in the end. It may not happen over night, but it does happen. If Software doesn't evolve it will be discarded.

I'll even use XSI as an example to counter your point. Sure they lost market share to Maya during the rewrite, but they are in a much better place today. Considering that our whole art and animation pipeline is now based on XSI (even though we had the option of using Maya), I'd say the rewrite was worth it in terms of tools available 'right now'.

Mudbox could take another year, but if people are still bitching about the ZB UI a year from now, I'm sure Skymatter will do just fine, assuming no other solutions pop up in the mean time. But this is all speculation, and doesn't mean squat. Tools like XSI 5 are here right now and I know I'd use that over Maya any day if given a choice (luckily, I am). ZB is here now too so that's what I use (technically) and get along just fine. It's funny though... there seem to be an awful lot of people that actually refuse to use ZB because they can't stand the UI. That's the last reason I'd refuse to use a program that offers such amazing tools and functionality. And yet people are willing to wait it out for Mudbox rather than be productive RIGHT NOW.

I'm sure Skymatter don't expect to capture the market by storm when they release either, after all, their whole toolset is literally based off of Zbrush's sculpting paradigm - someone has already beat them to the punch - they are merely providing a second solution. If ZB 2.5 ships in a timely manner I probably won't be purchasing mudbox myself either. I've never had a problem with the ZB UI- which seems to be the main reason people are so excited about it. I happen to like the ZB UI and Pixologic seem to have added all the features I found most appealing in Mudbox anyway. This despite the fact that I like using Mudbox.

Pavlov
08-22-2006, 05:16 PM
are you kidding... in my experienxce Zbrush is probably the less user-friendly interface i've ever used.

Paolo

James Edwards
08-22-2006, 09:53 PM
It doesn't really matter anymore what people think of the ZB UI though does it? I mean, for the budget conscious they'll have options like Hex2 or Silo2, or even blender by the look of things very shortly, and for those less frugal and more demanding of performance and specialization, Mudbox and ZB will surely provide depending on your preference. I don't even see the need to be arguing which is better... just use what you like and be happy. The artwork produced will say more than any amount of back and forth posting about UI ever could.

sculptactive
08-22-2006, 11:27 PM
It seems to me that with ZB the theory is always suggested that no program has a generic interface, that ZB is just a new and modern way of looking at the UI, that people simply do not like change. Well I followed ZB right from v1 always holding back because of the UI. Dipping my toe in now and again with each demo release. Finally when 2 came out I decided, well maybe there right, I cannot argue about something I have not learned, plus I desperately needed displacement Maps. So I took the time and trouble to learn and understand ZB.
Having learnt it I can now say that the ZB UI IMO is still dreadful . I use it still because of it's amazing tool set, but to use those tools I have to see it threw a pocket camera instead of SLR Camera.

Yes other programs are not all the same but they follow a certain code that has a generic code within the UI. Painters use "oil on canvas" yes you can use oil on plastic but there are reasons why it works best with canvas. There will always be the hard core ZB'ers who love it, but please don't make the excuse that the reason others don't like it is because they don't understand it or like change.

angman
08-23-2006, 12:23 AM
I agree with Sculp. - ZB is painful to use. To make matters worse Z-Spheres are worse - not better - than box modeling. And its the ui interaction that makes them aweful. They are clumsey because they are not intuitive in thier response.

I have applied to be a beta tester for Mudbox, and they sent me an email saying "not right now" in a very polite way, but - I assume - later.

I am very, very impatient with this paticular thing. I even bought Hex to do this stuff but it is simply too unstabtable to be usable.

I need two features to take my art to the next level. Easy straight forward UV creation and Multi-res Normal/Displacement mapping.

How about you Silo beta testers out there? Is Silo 2 any better than Hex?

Sculp. do you know anybody at Skymatter that you could talk into signing me up for the beta?

Angier

cresshead
08-23-2006, 01:10 AM
silo vs hexagon
i personally like hexagon better than silo beta..silo more buggy than hexagon for displacement modeling, silo only ships with basic brushes you have to make/import all the other brushes of alphas [photoshop piks etc]
i find slio is pretty instable in use [tried it on 2 pc's so far] however it is a beta version...there's no symetricl brushes currently so you have to use modeling symetry which is a little hit n miss he u.i. is spartan and agreat deal different from 1.42..feels like a totally different app to me.

on the upside silo beta has a much faster response to painting with it.

from what i've seen both hexagon and silo can produce some nice models and both have a true 3d interface to work in.

try 'em

steve g

sculptactive
08-23-2006, 01:15 AM
Sculp. do you know anybody at Skymatter that you could talk into signing me up for the beta?

Sorry no, but from what I understand they have now made it an open beta, but they probably cannot cope if they allow all to join at once. Patience is needed.

For UV creation your best solutions are Nifty's... http://homepage2.nifty.com/nif-hp/index2_english.htm which is free and great or UnFold3D... http://www.polygonal-design.fr/e_unfold/ which is also great but commercial.

angman
08-23-2006, 12:09 PM
Thanks Sculp. and cresshead. I'll check out the UV stuff. Thanks for the encouragement on Mudbox.

I wonder if fasting and praying would help?

Angier

angman
08-23-2006, 12:12 PM
BTW Sculp. how does the resolution under MB compare with ZB? Can you do millions of polys as in ZB? And speed? I understand that MB is beta and ZB is shipping - so its a little bit of apples to oranges.

08-24-2006, 11:04 AM
Well the big difference here is that you can get around not being able to work with 4 and 5 million polygon meshes on screen by breaking things up into more manageable chunks. That allows you to blow way past Zbrush's maximum resolution. Right now I'm working with scene files that have twice as many polygons in them as I can get in Zbrush, simply because I can actually work with multiple meshes in Mudbox. Of course, this will be solved with the ZB 2.5 update which will also support multiple meshes per file. Get ready to burn through HD space with both apps though, as I'm currently looking at close to 1GB per scene file in Mudbox. With incremental saves, that adds up pretty fast, and will be the same in ZB 2.5 too.

Also, I don't know what your machine specs are but I can work with up to 3 million polygons per mesh pretty smoothly on a fairly outdated 3GHz P4, 2 gigs ram and a radeon X800. It gets choppy after that though. Hiding parts of a mesh to focus on detailing is easy though so even working with a 5 million polygon mesh is fairly painless, since I almost never need to see the whole mesh. At that resolution you are detailing anyway so having the whole mesh visible is pointless.

angman
08-24-2006, 02:04 PM
has anyone seen ZB 2.5? I the interface still "2.5D" Oh, how I want to try MB!

On a side note I find it interesting that it came out as MB and ZB. Weird.

Thanks for all of the replies guys.

Angier

bryphi7
08-24-2006, 02:48 PM
a lot of people complain about zbrushes interface, Once I learned it, I thought it was one of the fastest interfaces I ever used...

James Edwards
08-24-2006, 08:21 PM
Actually, I prefer the ZB UI over Mudbox as well. There's really not much to it if you just focus on the sculpting aspects, which is all mudbox does anyway. The rest you can learn as you become more comfortable - if you even need it. Having all the rendering, 2d and 2.5d painting, materials etc in there may clutter things up for some, but it doesn't change the fact that sculpting itself is still dead easy to work with and will only get easier in 2.5 without the need for Projection Master anymore. Even back with 1.55 I picked it up in a couple of hours. Once I adapted to the tablet-focused nav scheme there was no going back. If they ever do manage to refine the UI a bit, I really hope they leave the nav scheme alone. It's way faster to work with than 'traditional' 3d app UIs.

One thing I love about the new sculpt tools in Silo 2 is that NeverCenter added the ability to orbit just by dragging the tablet in empty space, like in ZB (optional). I hope Skymatter adds more nav options to mudbox. As familiar as I am with the Maya-centric controls, I'm not really a big fan of them.

angman
08-26-2006, 02:57 PM
I looked at the promo videos for ZB 2.5 and that is incredible. Frankly I don't see how a new program (MB, or even Silo since this functionality it new to it) could mature quickly enough to compete with these capabilities.

I reallllllllly dislike the ZB interface. If someone were to show me how it workd and better explain the reasons why on the interface? My story is that it just doesn't make sense. But then, considering that I have watched the zscripts - maybe not even then - I don't know.

Anyway is there a video tutorial that some of you zbrush people would recomend - focusing on sculpting, and normal/diplacement maps?

So I gather there is no timetable on MB 1.0 or ZB 2.5? So we don't know if its a few months or 20 years?
Hmm...

Angier

peteb
08-27-2006, 09:55 AM
I really like the ZB workflow too. I agree that if you're building stuff from scratch epsecially mechanical then Z-brush is terrible.
But if like me you just want to import your organic models in and add all the details then I don't think you can do much better then Z-brush.
I love the way you can just have your tools down both sides so you don't have to go far to grab them .
The only weird thing for me is the fact that you have to import the mesh as a brush but to be honest once you know that then it's just as easy as any other program.

Mudbox does seem to have a lot of hype without any proof. I was considering it but after seeing Z-brush 2.5 I really don't see the point. It's going to have to be an amazing product to beat Z-brush.


Pete B

sculptactive
08-27-2006, 12:51 PM
Mudbox does seem to have a lot of hype without any proof.

Where is the proof that ZBrush 2.5 is great? Only from videos and beta testers stating so. Same goes for MudBox.

At least two people here have stated Mudbox is good on this forum. ZBrush is no different.

Only when they are both on sale will everyone know whether the released versions are hype or not.

duke
09-03-2006, 01:34 AM
Does anyone actually know what the mudbox price will be? Are there rumored prices anywhere?

BazC
09-03-2006, 01:40 AM
Does anyone actually know what the mudbox price will be? Are there rumored prices anywhere?

The only info I've seen is that it will be "affordable" It also sounds as though there will be a small user version and a studio version. Presumably the individual license will be relatively cheap (and tied to your HD?) the studio version will obviously be correspondingly more expensive.