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View Full Version : We have Syflex, but still need a hair!!!!!!



silviotoledo
08-18-2006, 03:14 PM
Finally syflex was launched for lightwave. I really couldn't do a good cloth simulation with Lw without loosing time and going crazy withut results.

The big problem now is that we don't have a hais system for lightwave. Maya and specially Max 8 are amazing! the best hair!

RedBull
08-18-2006, 03:45 PM
We do have Sasquatch, and Saslite, Some versions of S&H still work, FibreFactory4 is coming, Displacement Hair with Nodal is bearable.
Polygon hair is always doable with effort or MeshPaint.

So there is quite a lot of options in this area...
Sasquatch2 will eventually be released, and NT have acknowledged the lack of a good hair system. So i guess time will see this improved.

silviotoledo
08-18-2006, 04:31 PM
Ok, but we still don't have a solution for realistic long hair. Sasquatch is really bad. When we try a complex set of guides, sasquatch goes crazy.

Actually we don't have any tool to make a hair like this on lightwave

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=036953 - MAX 8 hair

lino.grandi
08-18-2006, 04:45 PM
Ok, but we still don't have a solution for realistic long hair. Sasquatch is really bad. When we try a complex set of guides, sasquatch goes crazy.

Actually we don't have any tool to make a hair like this on lightwave

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=036953 - MAX 8 hair

Sas can do that. We're working on a huge project involving very hard to style hair...I hope to be able to show something soon.

UbiGuy
08-18-2006, 07:38 PM
Sysflex cost a lot...

$US 2,200 per license. 3 times LW Price...

UbiGuy
08-18-2006, 07:46 PM
I use Max 8 for hair. But not JoeAlter plugin.. I use HairTrix (HairFX and Ornatrix). It's so fast.

We mostly use XSI at work, but my boss ask me to do hairs in Max. Five times Faster for styling and rendering...

I try to do my best with Sasquatch, but without modeling relationship and history in LW, long hairs are difficult and painfull to create...

monovich
08-18-2006, 07:49 PM
you could make back the cost of syflex in a couple of projects. LW is priced so low it makes everything else look expensive, but Syflex is fairly priced. I'm relieved it's available for LW. I hope I need it for something some day.

RedBull
08-18-2006, 08:29 PM
Yeah i think where LW lacks is in the styling and creation of Hair/Curve/Splines
for rendering in something like Sas...

Sas is still quite good looking and fast to render and we already have a Saslite built in... But the creation of curve and guides is tedious indeed.
Almost all of the current hair programs are pretty lame in this area IMO.
If we could at least get Blender level guide creation and manipulation, it would be great, or even enhancing the particle system to allow for it.

But we hope that Sasquatch2 is being worked on, as the mind boggles of realtime Nodal controlled volumetric Fprime Sas2ism....

As for Syflex, it's a godsend personally..... It's just so nice and accurate, with the advantage of being super fast as well..... ClothFX can't brag about having even one of those things even... ;)

silviotoledo
08-19-2006, 07:02 AM
Lino

I never heard about worley will release another version of sasquatch.
The actual version have problems with shadows and doesn't recognize radiosity and ray trace.

Sasquatch is ok for stretched long hair, but if you try twisted guides combined with stretched ones, something like a Bride's hair, it goes crazy. You can do something, but you can't control the shape you want.

How would we do a hair like that one from King Kong digital double actress with sasquatch? The hair should match the real actress hair.

it also works with realtive percent values, wich is really terrible. Why not metters and centimeters???? or fixed percent? They wanna make us crazy!!!

Hope to see your images soon, maybe it's a hope.

UbiGuy

Yeah, actually max have the most easy-to use hair system wich I consider better than the maya one. Joe Alter worked hard with the Max team to make it. The fibers are perfect now. Finally we can create realistic looking hair with it.

Just a curiosity: How do you compose Max hair and Xsi animation? Crazy thing! And about the projected shadows?

Conversion programs are not perfect! interpolation between key-frames is diferent between one program to other. Also the lightwave sub-D interpolation is different between Max interpolation, what makes the shape do not match exactly.

What do you use? Is there any video online where we can see some images?

RedBull and Monovich

Yeah, syflex saved us. The cost is big, but there's not a way to make realistic convincing and stable simulation on lightwave. We finally can use it to calculate the dinamics on hair guides and also on clothes, of course.

I tried for long months to make something I can control using LW dinamics. It flics too much, colision detection makes mistakes ( wich we need to manually edit ).


Actually, to make a complete project on lightwave, I think what we need is really a better hair system.

I tried to say to the ORNATRIX guy that he will not sale his plugin for Max anymore because Max hair system is almost perfect. He should port it to lightwave, wich needs more. No answer yet. May be he's a Max enthusiast.

UbiGuy
08-19-2006, 05:00 PM
We got some problems with PointOven but it's work well enough for us now.

But I use HairTrix ...
(see HairFX http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/229960)

Not The built-in Hairs system (JoeAlter).

The shade and the render ar not perfect (But now I got amasing Result...) The hairs are more procedural and the styling controls are powerfull. You have to try...

I can't show any results without NDA. But I will use it soon for personnal project... Maybe I can ask my boss for some RND pictures...

KillMe
08-20-2006, 06:50 AM
does anyone know when syflex for lw will be released? on the site still jsut offering up the maya and xsi versions

pixelinfected
08-20-2006, 07:08 AM
i use sas from many times, from the worley release, and it take account of radiosity, work fine with shadow if you use shadow map in correct way, and in raytracing, its big lack is reflections, but a good multipass work can solve it easely.

about dynamic of sas, for long hair or braid, you must use lw dynamic or syflex.
but is not so bad like you tell. please tell us the problems in the specific situation, to understand real problems.

UbiGuy
08-20-2006, 11:32 AM
Pixelinfected.. Did you ever try Hairs in others software?

It's possible to acheive goods results with sasquatch. But the workflow and the limitation (from LW and Sasquatch) slow down the creation process. But it's better to have Sasquatch than nothing...

A good artist can do everything with minimum tool, but for me LW still behind the competition for hairs in real production. I continue to learn it but it's my feeling for now.

UbiGuy
08-20-2006, 11:36 AM
REDBULL...

Did you ever try HairFX for Max. The creation of curve and guides is the most effecient I ever seen...

Maybe I can create a video to show how it's work....

pixelinfected
08-20-2006, 12:21 PM
i used Fur of maya, Hair of cinema4d, custom hair of renderman (by custom shader), and more...
in past i used the editor of fiber factory to build fast the guide of fibers, to speed up sas working.

i know it not have the best interface, but is not so impossible, and you cannot see sas and plugin that are builded 6 month ago, there are very different story and way.

from that i tst, the best editor is hair of maxon, it have an amazing interface, and is not fast, it's a thunder!

Carm3D
08-20-2006, 06:11 PM
Ok, but we still don't have a solution for realistic long hair. Sasquatch is really bad. When we try a complex set of guides, sasquatch goes crazy.

Actually we don't have any tool to make a hair like this on lightwave

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=036953 - MAX 8 hair

I could do that easily with MeshPaint & Sasquatch. The hard part might be animating it.

Carlovfx
08-22-2006, 11:36 AM
Pixelinfected.. Did you ever try Hairs in others software?

It's possible to acheive goods results with sasquatch. But the workflow and the limitation (from LW and Sasquatch) slow down the creation process. But it's better to have Sasquatch than nothing...

A good artist can do everything with minimum tool, but for me LW still behind the competition for hairs in real production. I continue to learn it but it's my feeling for now.

Completly true,
surely with SAS we can make really good hair, but why have we to make always the things more complicated than they are? Nobody spits on SAS, it's part of our program and we all use it, but surely is not the tool we all really need in production. We are in 2006, it's necessary a completely new tool for fur and fibers in LW (and it's not the only thing necessary). I love Lightwave, I love Newtek, but i would see a more dynamic program with more companies developing plugins and tools and more voice in the market and to do this it's necessary a revolution starting from fur/fibers and animation system. You wanna make the fur of King Kong with LW? Do it, surely after loosing some blood you'll reach it, but after this try to animate it as in the movie :) I'm sure that NT will help us with next patches for stability and so on, but the really important thing is that the new opening of the core will permit finally to developers to develope :thumbsup:

hrgiger
08-22-2006, 12:08 PM
I think the hair that was shown as an example earlier in this thread could be done with Sasquatch. The render quality is there, however, the ease of setting up the guides is not. But I think it's entirely doable.

pixelinfected
08-23-2006, 02:35 AM
You wanna make the fur of King Kong with LW? Do it, surely after loosing some blood you'll reach it, but after this try to animate it as in the movie :) I'm sure that NT will help us with next patches for stability and so on, but the really important thing is that the new opening of the core will permit finally to developers to develope :thumbsup:

don't forget that fur of king kng a 80% custom tool and 20% commercial tool, i see the work of guy that develop the tools in weta, and actaully all commercial tool of market ar far from these tools...

Movie are not a reference, be cause big movie like king kong have a bunch of custom tools developed for custom needings...

i'm sure that worley don't abandon their son Sas, but they are busy in another project.

Carlovfx
08-23-2006, 06:59 AM
It's right Carlo (hi man :)), but the problem remains: SAS is no more a good tool to create hair, fur and fibers in 2006. I don't mean that we can't do it, but it's always a complication in a yet complicated job as ours with heavy timelines and milestones. Why have i to spend more money/time to do something that usually in other softwares requires less time/money and grants less problems in animation? Lightwave rulez (especially in a so difficult market as italian one) but SAS no, or better... no more. For me of course :)

sllink
08-23-2006, 02:18 PM
Well I've had mixed results with SAS as well but I find creating a proxy object for the sas guides allows the calculations of the dynamics a bit better. I havent tried any real complex hair though. If you check your content directory under LW8 for Cellshades work you get an idea of how to this can be effective if you have the patience.

SonicMotion
08-23-2006, 05:05 PM
Its funny how we expect everything for nothing - I myself am quite happy with LW Cloth dynamics, I've never had to do anything too complex with it and it has always served my needs. It could be worse, we could have a lesser program like Carrara that doesn't have cloth, or soft bodys, hair, or any plugins that support those types of features. I for one am quite happy.

silviotoledo
08-23-2006, 07:30 PM
yeah pixelinfected, if we could do 20% of king kong's hair on lightwave it would be great!

giger, I don't think sas gets the same rendering. Although the fiber effect is good, the other new programs gets better results.

Nice sample sllink! it's realy beauty your cartoon character.
I still think it's too hard the way to get this effect on lightwave. On other programs you just modelate hair and it colides and works, generally, fine. I wish it would be so easy as control particles on lightwave.

The problem is when we try to make realistic digital duble or character. Hair is missing. Actually we can make really cool realistic looking characters on lightwave, but without hair. The hair doesn't accompany the development of technology. Sasquatch is really old and it's not anymore the priority of worley. Worley works on fprime, wich is amazing, but Modo does the same better and faster ( hope moderator don't read that! ).

ok sonic you will continue happy until that day you'll have to make your character combing it's hair. Should we to limit or change our ideas to what the technology allows to execute?

I notticed here that the solution is make compositing with other softwares. What can be too difficult due to shadow projections.

pixelinfected
08-24-2006, 05:33 AM
Dear guys, (hi Carlo ;-))
sasquatch was an amazing tools when i bought it (1998-1999) actually at worley are aware that is old, and market need a powerful and updated tools, i exchange some email with them, and know that, but actually are busy in other project (i don't know what, but from genius like that, i'm sure that they marvel us), when they finish it, they do some work on other plugs, but they can promise anything, be cause they must finish other project.

in the same times i can tell you that in past i try fiber factory (i did a review of it), and shve and hair, and on all product for lw, my best choise was fiber factory editor with sas render.

at today there is a syflex dynamic that help a lot fur dinamic, but future is unknow... i hope to find a better tools, but until i cannot see that, i prefere to find a better way to use our toosl.

sas work well if you build two different level of guide, first level is a few guide which a dinamic system , second layer is fine guide (for sas render) drived from softlink dynamic of first layer.

try it and you can find fast and quite confortable way to use dynamic.

p.s. anyway actaul best hair system is hair system of cinema, it's amazing, try to see the demo movie, where you can see growing and combing system...

lardbros
08-25-2006, 05:05 PM
Well i've been frustrated by 3dMAX 8's built in hair system (Joe Alter), it crashes on me ALOT... and by alot i mean 5 times in 10 minutes, just trying to set some grass up. It's crap, buggy and pretty much useless. Yeah some people have clearly got some decent results, but god knows how, i can't even get simple grass going without render errors or crashes.

silviotoledo
08-26-2006, 06:57 PM
Ok, actually the commercial long hair solutions available are:

Sasquatch - > needs a big update, not so good nowadays. Too hard to get a good result. Old technology.

Saslite -> good for grass and fur. Old dinamics.

Lightwave 9 Displacement - > :( I don't think it's a good choice for hair

Cinema 4D - > sounds good the samples and dynamics. Maybe we can composite it's hair with lightwave.

Shave and haircut - > not available for lightwave. Hope LW 9 will open a new port for it.

Max hair -> beauty fibers, hi quality render, nice to style and modelate, but it seems to have some bugs?!Maybe we can composite it's hair with lightwave.

Maya Fur+Paint Effects - > seems to be the most complete solution. Maybe we can composite it's hair with lightwave.

Ornatrix -> nice fibers and dinamics. Not available for lightwave.

Hairfx( shang hair ) - > nice fibers and dinamics. Not available for lightwave.



Solutions:


Actually to make a realistic looking styled long hair, we willl have to make compositing with other softwares.


Sugestions:


Write to the plugin guys asking they port their solution for lightwave.

Ask Newtek to consider development of a hair system like cinema4d's one.
:agree:

Carlovfx
09-01-2006, 06:47 AM
I'm quoting completely what said Silviotoledo, SAS can be used to make grass or short fibers generally, but for long hair there is not an easy and productive tool for LW! I think that implementing a completely new tool for hairs in next LW9 patches would be a great move, dynamics have always more weight in productions and now it's no more as some years ago when dynamics were the evil and heavy monster of VFX. **** men, videogames are using some dynamics alghorithm that can show great results in realtime!!!

pixelinfected
09-01-2006, 07:00 AM
Ok, actually the commercial long hair solutions available are:

Sasquatch - > needs a big update, not so good nowadays. Too hard to get a good result. Old technology.

Saslite -> good for grass and fur. Old dinamics.

Lightwave 9 Displacement - > :( I don't think it's a good choice for hair

Cinema 4D - > sounds good the samples and dynamics. Maybe we can composite it's hair with lightwave.

Shave and haircut - > not available for lightwave. Hope LW 9 will open a new port for it.

Max hair -> beauty fibers, hi quality render, nice to style and modelate, but it seems to have some bugs?!Maybe we can composite it's hair with lightwave.

Maya Fur+Paint Effects - > seems to be the most complete solution. Maybe we can composite it's hair with lightwave.

Ornatrix -> nice fibers and dinamics. Not available for lightwave.

Hairfx( shang hair ) - > nice fibers and dinamics. Not available for lightwave.



Solutions:


Actually to make a realistic looking styled long hair, we willl have to make compositing with other softwares.


Sugestions:


Write to the plugin guys asking they port their solution for lightwave.

Ask Newtek to consider development of a hair system like cinema4d's one.
:agree:


Sas need an enhanment in the guide section and in a preview section, and a volumetric mode to render in reflections.

hair of maxon is amazing i test i to my friends and i'amazed of flexible solution that maxon develop, better even of maya fur, which is a bit old and not everytimes good (and need to buy maya unlimited which is not ever necessary for for).

fiber factory 4 could a solution, we must attend few weeks and something will appear (from that author write on its web)

shave and hair are not developed for lw for xxx reason, and in particular i remember that alter stop to develop it when newtek add lite version of sas in lw 7.

shagfur for max is a nice tools, but is max only.

if you think to compose it, evalue also houdini fur and feather, that have a vey nice and powerful solutions.

lw9 displacement solution is a trick, that born since 12 years ago in renderman, but is good for short fur and hair not for long hair.

my hope is a new sas, with hibrid preview like g2 or fprime, and guide tools to grow guide and combing for layout.

Werner
09-01-2006, 07:04 AM
Well i've been frustrated by 3dMAX 8's built in hair system (Joe Alter), it crashes on me ALOT... and by alot i mean 5 times in 10 minutes, just trying to set some grass up. It's crap, buggy and pretty much useless. Yeah some people have clearly got some decent results, but god knows how, i can't even get simple grass going without render errors or crashes.

Everything in Max crashed on me back in the day. It must have been be the most unstable 3d application out there (version 3-5), but Shaghair was great to work with. Good results.

borkus
09-04-2006, 04:46 PM
one thing that bears mention is that even though there are more competent programs out there for creating realistic looking hair, it can be said that these "more competent" programs are in the thousands. so going with the "you get what you pay for" saying, i'm not too discouraged. i too have played with some of the other "big" boys. and yes, they are nice, but i can't even come close to affording them yet. granted blender is free, but has anybody put any time into that. didn't take me long to realise that it would be worth spending $800 for a descent program. way less aggrivating. lightwave is still behind the ball in one area (more in my opinion, but that's another thread), but at least i have an all around package that still makes amazing work. and while sasquatch costs $500, that still only puts me at $1300. well below the $4000 benchmark

borkus
09-07-2006, 09:41 PM
even though it would be easy to spend $4000 and more between plug-ins and extras

BazC
09-08-2006, 12:18 AM
one thing that bears mention is that even though there are more competent programs out there for creating realistic looking hair, it can be said that these "more competent" programs are in the thousands.

No they're not, Cinema4d's Hair module is $395 and is reputedly one of the best hair/fur solutions out there. Max and XSI have VERY cheap plugins (under $100?) that do a pretty good job. SAS hair looks great but is very limited by todays standards, it's difficult to use (apparently) and it's expensive! I just hope Fibre Factory is competitively priced and produces good results!

DragonFist
09-08-2006, 01:12 AM
Fiberfactory is going to be $250.

BazC
09-08-2006, 01:51 AM
Fiberfactory is going to be $250.

Thanks for the info! It seems that is an introductory price, I'm not sure I'd risk that much without trying a demo or at least seeing some better examples. The pics/animations on the site aren't very impressive IMO. There's no styling to speak of and the texturing looks a little artificial. I hope it's capable of better quality :(

gatz
09-08-2006, 10:01 AM
Wasn't there some styling aid for SAS released third party by a Worley operative? I think it was called Hairspray. It never became a cross platform plug as promised so I can't speak to it's effectiveness but it looked clunky. I'm hoping the next gen SAS is a lot more interactive. ****, I'm hoping there is a next gen SAS...

rg

Carm3D
09-08-2006, 02:24 PM
Yeah I bought Hairspray.. Clunky is a good word for it.. Or tedious. I've since purchased MeshPaint and it is a life-saver for creating SAS wigs!! This is how it should be. You model a handful of style guides, and MeshPaint creates clones, interpolating the space between your guides. Marvelous (if a bit overpriced)!

Darth Mole
09-08-2006, 04:59 PM
I have MeshPaint and Sasquatch - can you go into a bit more detail? I understand the principle, but are you using multiple different guides or what?

Carm3D
09-08-2006, 05:30 PM
Yeah.. You model a handful of curve guides and using the last operation mode, it will fill clones inbetween your guides.

Then convert the curve guides into SAS-configured 2-point poly chains via MeshPaint as well.

silviotoledo
09-09-2006, 04:49 PM
where can I see fiberfactory samples?

BazC
09-10-2006, 01:39 AM
where can I see fiberfactory samples?

FiberFactory (http://www.binaryartsinc.com/FiberFactoryIV.htm)

Carlovfx
09-12-2006, 07:51 AM
http://www.binaryartsinc.com/images/blueguy.mov
Ehm.... is it a joke or what? :oye:

silviotoledo
09-12-2006, 10:10 AM
Polygonal fibers sounds crazy. Post processing interpolated ones looks more interesting, once we can always edit and animate the guides.

Max have nice fibers, but it use to crash and they need to convert to polygons.

Also Maya Paint effects must be converted to polygons to react realistically with ray tracing and radiosity.

Fiber factory can be a solution for lightwave, but it needs better processig effects for shadow and fibers. The samples looks unreal.

Long hair is still a big problem for lightwave users.