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View Full Version : How can the Community better help Newtek?



Paul Brunson
08-17-2006, 03:17 PM
(Comments welcome from all, especially Newtek :thumbsup: )

Starting this thread after commenting on it in a thread about things Newtek marketing could improve on.

To start Newtek has an awesome community. And already the community does a tremedous amount for Newtek (I think). For example look at the amazing amount of free plugins for Lightwave.

But the question posed is "What more can be done?" How can we help Newtek and their products? In all areas, marketing etc. What we need are good ideas that with some dedication we could actually make happen.

For example let me throw out an idea I've been wishing for:

Lightwave Wiki manual (like www.wikipedia.com). How amazing would it be if we could put together a user created Lightwave Encyclopedia! Managed by users for the users! I personally don't know exactly how to go about it. But could it be done?

Twisted_Pixel
08-17-2006, 04:02 PM
Lightwave Wiki manual (like www.wikipedia.com). How amazing would it be if we could put together a user created Lightwave Encyclopedia! Managed by users for the users! I personally don't know exactly how to go about it. But could it be done?


Ben Vost has already started one afaik, will locate link and paste soon.

Edit: link located.

http://www.lightwiki.com

Silkrooster has also started one at:
www.silkrooster.com/wiki/index.php

WilliamVaughan
08-17-2006, 04:59 PM
One of the hardest things for NewTek is getting the rights to show the work created by the studios. Knowing this...one thing that is always a help is when the users send in work they have produced with permission from the studio.


Also...sometimes just knowing that something was created with LW is enuff for NewTek to try and get permissions. For Example:

If I wouldnt have written the feature article on Xmen 3 for HDRI3D Magazine, I would have never of known that LW was used in the movie.

Another: If I didnt hear from one of the LW artists on this project:
http://freedom-project.jp/

I wouldnt even know about it.

Another thing that would be a big help is if the community would submit their amazing work to the magazines that have galleries:

3D World
CGW
HDRI3D
Digit
etc.



hope that helps....

Bog
08-17-2006, 06:07 PM
We, as LightWavers, have to take a certain responsibility for our side. We need to get our work out there, above the radar, seen.

Proton has the absolute right of it - we need to get it out there. I look at 3D World... and you know? We just need to send 'em stuff. They need our content. They truly do.

Selah.

Silkrooster
08-17-2006, 07:01 PM
Proton's right, Getting new users just to say "WOW! That was done in lightwave?" That really sends a message getting new users to jump on board.

Something else you or others could do, try create a simple tutorial, whether it is pdf, html or video. It does not matter. Think about what was hard for you to grasp. Could you find a way to easily explain it to the next new user, to make their learning curve shorter. Try to keep your tutorial short and to the point. your first few tutorials should not require for you to purchase a web site. There are more than enough forums to post it on, plus if it is good enough, you may find someone who would be willing to host that tutorial for you.

Other than that, keep on the forums, help those that need it. and perhaps join a contest or two.
Take care,
Silk

Bog
08-17-2006, 08:28 PM
Well, I'm going to be *koff* talking to the editors of 3D World Mag after their little four-page tutorial on doing page-turns in Maya.

2.5 hours for *one* page turn? No wonder the British Library uniformly uses LightWave....

SP00
08-17-2006, 09:23 PM
Show them how it is done Bog, especially with LW.

SP00
08-17-2006, 09:37 PM
I think we also need to be careful how we talk about LW at different forum boards too. I know that LW has its issues, but we also need to think about the image we are portraying when we speak negatively about LW. People who don't know any better can easy spread what we say out of context and start a wave of negative propaganda. If we have something we need to get off our chest that can help NT, I think we should contain them only to website dedicated to LW. The users at these forum can understand better than people at Maya, Max or even XSI forums. No need to feed their negative perception on LW.

edit - I'm only mentioning this because we have been doing it a lot lately.

DogBoy
08-18-2006, 12:58 AM
Well, I'm going to be *koff* talking to the editors of 3D World Mag after their little four-page tutorial on doing page-turns in Maya.

2.5 hours for *one* page turn? No wonder the British Library uniformly uses LightWave....

Did you see the write up about the release LW9 in the same issue? Way to sell new software guys! They talk about it being over a year late, having bugs or being unstable and the sh*tstorm on these forums about FPrime not handling nodes. They put the last nail of the coffin by saying that it "at last" can play on a level playing field with the competition. It is so slanted and full of sly digs it is kind of embarrassing.

This kind of thing doesn't help.

Martin Adams
08-18-2006, 03:22 AM
Every time I flick through the 3DWorld magazine, I'm always on the lookout for LightWave stuff, but alas, rarely find it. There's a lot of talent in the community and it would be very nice to see more of the work in the magazine. That has to the be direct exposure that NewTek want.

One thing I'm a little in the dark about. If a studio produces a piece of work for a client (e.g. a TV ad, or vfx shot), what type of guidelines are there is being able to put that work in a showreel or write about it in articles?

BeeVee
08-18-2006, 03:30 AM
If you'd like to see more stuff Martin, you can start by sending work to the gallery in 3D World...

B

Martin Adams
08-18-2006, 03:44 AM
If you'd like to see more stuff Martin, you can start by sending work to the gallery in 3D World...

B

I couldn't agree more, but at the moment LW is merely a hobby and my work is no where near that standard to promote the software. But I am just a drop in the ocean - a drop alone can't make a wave.

BeeVee
08-18-2006, 04:03 AM
:D I wasn't picking on you particularly, I promise... :) Merely suggesting that those that have produced fine artwork in LightWave have no excuse to complain about 3D World if they haven't submitted their work to 3D World's gallery. Back in the days when I was editor I always wanted a larger choice of images to pick from. Nowadays I'm sure that's not the case, but the more LightWave the merrier I say. ;)

B

colkai
08-18-2006, 04:59 AM
One of the hardest things for NewTek is getting the rights to show the work created by the studios. Knowing this...one thing that is always a help is when the users send in work they have produced with permission from the studio.

It would also be very good of course if users allowed some high-end personal projects to be used.

Say you decide to help Newtek as Bog as been saying, so you sit down and produce a peice of work that you think really shows off LW. By allowing Newtek to use this in marketing demos and maybe even a DVD showreel that folks have asked about in the past. By the users doing it specifically to aid Newtek in marketing, it means there is no worries for Newtek over the rights to display such work.

If I were good enough, I'd happily do something and give Newtek full rights to display the material and use it for any publicity or promotional needs.

colkai
08-18-2006, 05:05 AM
LW is merely a hobby and my work is no where near that standard to promote the software. But I am just a drop in the ocean - a drop alone can't make a wave.
My friend, I am in the same boat (groan), but I would say, you are wrong, put enough drops together, not only can you make a wave, you can make a Tsunami.

Don't normally guide people to CGT, but...
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113779&goto=lastpost

If you've a mind, pore through the last 10 pages or so, (or if you're a masochist, read the entire thread, just make sure you've got a spare week to get through it all :p). This is a predominantly LW group of hobbyists getting together to produce something. I may ask our project leader if he would consider allowing Newtek to use our work, after all, it also is good publicity for the artists. :)

EDIT: Another idea, based on our team, I ain't so hot at lighting, but why not focus on your skills? A group of users can work together, one models something, the other textures, the other lights it. If you can't do it all yourself, get a friend / fellow waver to help. :)
I have a living room model I could re-do, then I'd be happy to have someone else light it.
Another bonus, everyone involved learns something from the experience.

Barred
08-18-2006, 05:13 AM
I know that in teh games industry that there is some 'marketing' where posts from different competitors either bash another companies product on the oppositions forum then post a 'did you see that in xxxxxx forum that 'insert product' is getting rubbished. There is a term for this behaviour I just cannot remember it at the moment.

I am not saying that this is happening in the 3D market. Just think really guys and try to show the positive side as well as any problems. Or if the problem has been sorted then post that too.

On a side note. I have spetn 4 years in Max and hated the modeler but loved the texturing tools. I have spent 6 months trying to get my head around the Maya demo (I am a fik mesh monkey) But I have always upgraded LW personally even now that I can hardly use (nore really afford it) it due to poor hand controll. I mention this only because I get more 'fun' and time fired up value for money than playing games to try and occupy my enforced time at home.

Good luck with LW9 though I do not like the new box designe ;)

zapper1998
08-18-2006, 05:52 AM
Every time I flick through the 3DWorld magazine, I'm always on the lookout for LightWave stuff, but alas, rarely find it. There's a lot of talent in the community and it would be very nice to see more of the work in the magazine. That has to the be direct exposure that NewTek want.



I agree, not very Lightwave friendly..I would like to see all the tuts in 3D WorldMag done in all the Major Apps, and give us a choice on there web site to see them, or download them...I hate seeing a little Lightwave tut.

Michael

IMPERIAL
08-18-2006, 06:13 AM
I dont know about that magazine..so i will just comment on what i have seen....

Does Newtek buy commertial space in that magazine? How much? 1 page? 2 pages? 1/16 page?
Compare it to other companies.. and that is the amount that the magazine will write about their product.

Magazines will write what ppl want to read... those ppl wana read about something they use... something they have... and that can be DOWNLOADED on the net for test period.

right now the best way we can help Newtek is to convince them to put demo on their site. ( i know i am being boaring..but i see it as helping Newtek)


Other thing that bothers me is choice of dealers....how they make someone a dealer.... Newtek cant promote their products everywhere..so its up to the dealers to do it. To make promotions, workshops, seminars..organize contests... have the product installed on at least one machine... something...anything..my dealer doesnt even know what LW or VT is.
So i (we) am (are) doing all the job and the dealer gets the money wich is ok but they can atleast invest som of it in the promotion of the product. As user i (we) have sold more then the dealers.

As for marketing.. I would use the interface and the render power and speed.

Right now i am trying bouth XSI and Maya again..(wich i DOWNLOADED) just to see what is all the fuzz about. And again ..the first thing i hate is the interface in bouth. And second is the render speed and how hard it is to get good resoults. One thing i noticed is that bouth of them have XSI to Maya and Maya to XSI.... so someone can make an efford and make MAYA to LW or XSI to LW...to the new users that looks powerfull.

Also tutorials.. LW have some great ppl doing videos...but Newtek should pay SplineGod or someone else (even make own company) to make highly professional videos wich will delever free with LW (or atleast the basic ones). I am not saying these are not proffesional... just making a point. LW needs something like gnomon for example. Those ppl can also make a lot of pics for magazine covers... promotional materials..and so on. Not to mention tech support and other good things that will come out of that.

I know it sounds like (what should Newtek do) instead of what can we do to help, but i feel like i have done all i can to promote LW and VT as much as i can. I have convinced ppl to buy Newtek products instead of someone elses...and i think thats the whole point. I might help more if Newtek help too with things i mentioned.

As for sending work to magazines .... i totaly agree.. but Newtek has own galery in wich under creatures...the page is empty... like there is no pics done with creatures..???.. also few other categories are empty.

I can go on and on.. like after 17years there are still NTSC only limitation...

The more Newtek gives.. more it will get.

Captain Obvious
08-18-2006, 06:23 AM
The main thing I think the Lightwave community can do to help NewTek, is to make sure to show that we're not some fanatic cult. Many people think that Lightwavers are application loyalists who dislike the users of other apps. I don't think it's all that bad, but there is a certain degree of truth to it. In my experience, the percentage of fanatics and application loyalists is much higher in the Lightwave community than in most other ones.

But please note that I'm not pointing any fingers! :)

IMPERIAL
08-18-2006, 06:33 AM
I dont know about that magazine..so i will just comment on what i have seen....

Does Newtek buy commertial space in that magazine? How much? 1 page? 2 pages? 1/16 page?
Compare it to other companies.. and that is the amount that the magazine will write about their product.

Magazines will write what ppl want to read... those ppl wana read about something they use... something they have... and that can be DOWNLOADED on the net for test period.

right now the best way we can help Newtek is to convince them to put demo on their site. ( i know i am being boaring..but i see it as helping Newtek)


Other thing that bothers me is choice of dealers....how they make someone a dealer.... Newtek cant promote their products everywhere..so its up to the dealers to do it. To make promotions, workshops, seminars..organize contests... have the product installed on at least one machine... something...anything..my dealer doesnt even know what LW or VT is.
So i (we) am (are) doing all the job and the dealer gets the money wich is ok but they can atleast invest som of it in the promotion of the product. As user i (we) have sold more then the dealers.

As for marketing.. I would use the interface and the render power and speed.

Right now i am trying bouth XSI and Maya again..(wich i DOWNLOADED) just to see what is all the fuzz about. And again ..the first thing i hate is the interface in bouth. And second is the render speed and how hard it is to get good resoults. One thing i noticed is that bouth of them have XSI to Maya and Maya to XSI.... so someone can make an efford and make MAYA to LW or XSI to LW...to the new users that looks powerfull.

Also tutorials.. LW have some great ppl doing videos...but Newtek should pay SplineGod or someone else (even make own company) to make highly professional videos wich will delever free with LW (or atleast the basic ones). I am not saying these are not proffesional... just making a point. LW needs something like gnomon for example. Those ppl can also make a lot of pics for magazine covers... promotional materials..and so on. Not to mention tech support and other good things that will come out of that.

I know it sounds like (what should Newtek do) instead of what can we do to help, but i feel like i have done all i can to promote LW and VT as much as i can. I have convinced ppl to buy Newtek products instead of someone elses...and i think thats the whole point. I might help more if Newtek help too with things i mentioned.

As for sending work to magazines .... i totaly agree.. but Newtek has own galery in wich under creatures...the page is empty... like there is no pics done with creatures..???.. also few other categories are empty.

I can go on and on.. like after 17years there are still NTSC only limitation...

All above does not bother me as an old user.. but it doesnt help me in promoting LW.
The more Newtek gives.. more it will get.

starbase1
08-18-2006, 06:42 AM
Well, a couple of things we can all do...

1. Help the newbies - a positive and encouraging attitude will make them want to come out of the shallow end.

2. Those of us with web sites, make links to other good lightwave web sites, and this one. It all helps move the products up Google's lists.

3. Support the small guys. There's a load of people here and on other forums knocking up free scripts and utilities. TAKE THE TIME TO THANK THEM! As someone who used to run an online sytem, you would not believe how rare this is...

4. If you have an online gallery, mention the software (and plugins) you used to make it, right by the image.

The guys are right about submitting to the mags though - I chose LW many years ago on the basis of work I saw in the magazines. (And Babylon 5!)

Nick

softdistortion
08-18-2006, 06:57 AM
Just got a heads about this from Colkai (thanks Colin).
If NEWTEK are interested in our works I'd be happy to send it out and even do higher rez print versions of anything they would like.
We have been in 3Dworld, but having our team's work used directly by NT would be great! :thumbsup:

WhiteBoy
08-18-2006, 07:13 AM
How amazing would it be if we could put together a user created Lightwave Encyclopedia! Managed by users for the users! I personally don't know exactly how to go about it. But could it be done?

It certainly can be done. In fact, Blender's main documentation is all wiki-based now.

http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual
http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Main_Page

T-Light
08-18-2006, 07:42 AM
IMPERIAL -

I can go on and on.. like after 17years there are still NTSC only limitation...
Where?
I remember LW tied to the original video toaster being NTSC only but that was back in the early to mid nineties. As far as I'm aware all of Newtek's products since then have been multiformat.

IMPERIAL
08-18-2006, 07:52 AM
DVview in LW .. it says its NTSC only.
And how long did we waited for PAL DVEs for VT.

I dont wana attack Newtek.. just pointing out some things that ppl are asking me why they are that way.

Bog
08-18-2006, 07:53 AM
Did you see the write up about the release LW9 in the same issue? Way to sell new software guys! They talk about it being over a year late, having bugs or being unstable and the sh*tstorm on these forums about FPrime not handling nodes. They put the last nail of the coffin by saying that it "at last" can play on a level playing field with the competition. It is so slanted and full of sly digs it is kind of embarrassing.

I did, and I've almost calmed down now. A half-page on Maya and Max, saying "Hey! Wow! Not a heck of a lot new! How cool is that?" and 2.5 column inches on 9 saying "Well, we don't know anything about it but FPrime doesn't work with nodal. Obviously NewTek's fault, that."

The words I'd use to describe them are not for use in polite company. I have to take my time with writing to them because I keep getting a bit miffed. It's the Irish in me, I'm sure.

lilrayray77
08-18-2006, 07:53 AM
It certainly can be done. In fact, Blender's main documentation is all wiki-based now.

http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Manual
http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Main_Page

Proton has lightwiki right? I think that would be a perfect place for such a document.

SP00
08-18-2006, 07:56 AM
Did you see the write up about the release LW9 in the same issue? Way to sell new software guys! They talk about it being over a year late, having bugs or being unstable and the sh*tstorm on these forums about FPrime not handling nodes. They put the last nail of the coffin by saying that it "at last" can play on a level playing field with the competition. It is so slanted and full of sly digs it is kind of embarrassing.

This kind of thing doesn't help.

I haven't read this review, but it sounds like an unfair review. When we see something like that, it is worth sending off an e-mail voicing how unfair we find their review. This has a significant impact on their perception of who reads their mag. If you have read this review and disagree with it, I would suggest sending them an e-mail at

General queries (3D World)
[email protected]

They do read it, if only the subject heading.

Somewhat off topic, but I do agree that if you want to attract maya or max users, NT needs an easy way to import/convert all the other file formats into LW. Some people buildup a large library that they don't want to abandon.

wavk
08-18-2006, 07:59 AM
huh?! lw's community is known for its helpfullness, etc.
so... How can NT better help the community!?


mlon

parm
08-18-2006, 08:20 AM
I did, and I've almost calmed down now. A half-page on Maya and Max, saying "Hey! Wow! Not a heck of a lot new! How cool is that?" and 2.5 column inches on 9 saying "Well, we don't know anything about it but FPrime doesn't work with nodal. Obviously NewTek's fault, that."

The words I'd use to describe them are not for use in polite company. I have to take my time with writing to them because I keep getting a bit miffed. It's the Irish in me, I'm sure.

I'll be cancelling my subscription forthwith. Well I would if I had one. Read it in Borders, left it on the shelf until there's another decent LW tutorial

:grumpy:

Wonderpup
08-18-2006, 08:24 AM
If we look at a different model, that of Movies. I will tend to go and see a movie based on the opinions of people I know and trust. So one of the most powerful ways that users can help promote Lightwave is by word of mouth personal recommendation.

I switched to Lightwave where I work by buying my own copy and using it ( The company runs MAX.) and I did get some flack at first- until I showed how much better and faster I could work with it.

But even here I do find that there is pressure when dealing with clients to pretend the work is done in Max- not because the clients know anything about 3D, they don't- but because Max is a name they have heard of and find reasuring.

So there is a kind of chicken and egg situation here- untill Lightwavers come out of the closet and confess to using it, it's reputation will not improve.

SP00
08-18-2006, 08:49 AM
I went to an architectural firm and offered my 3D viz services. They asked me if I knew Max (because they thought all 3D viz was done in max, like drafting was all done in autocad). I said, no and that I work with LW, they all had a puzzled look. Then I proceed to talk to them about Battlestar Galactical, Smallville, CSI, and LOST. Then they were like, wow, but still wasn't sure if LW was a pro apps able to do their work. After a week, they come back to me and tell me that they spoke to a few people and those people told them LW is a very good pro app. Although I did my part, it shows how ignorant the public is to other software beyond maya or max.

BeeVee
08-18-2006, 09:11 AM
And perhaps citing Khalid's work (http://muharraqi-studios.com/) would have been more targetted to their domain... Nothing but LightWave here... ;)

B

SP00
08-18-2006, 09:57 AM
Now that is some nice work. Get their stuff on a NT inspiration reel.

Bog
08-18-2006, 10:15 AM
Get their stuff on a NT inspiration reel.

*Giggles into his coffee thinking about "The NewTek Inspirational Instute"*

You could do a really funny reel on that one ;)

colkai
08-18-2006, 11:40 AM
I did, and I've almost calmed down now. A half-page on Maya and Max, saying "Hey! Wow! Not a heck of a lot new! How cool is that?"
Yup, and I'm sure their reaction to the whole MB debacle as "oh see, they didn't mean it?" has nothing to do with their Autodesk/Alias slant either.

I'm not impressed with them at all lately, if you're going to be a mouthpiece for a company, at least have the decency to be honest about it. I've been a bit miffed at the Lw treatment myself but figured, they'd be like "oh no, really , we LOVE LW, see, we even gave you a 2 paragraph tutorial on it". :p



Mutter mutter grumble....

Barred
08-18-2006, 02:29 PM
I gave up with 3D World Mag about a year ago. LW seemed to have become a dirty word with them.

GandB
08-18-2006, 02:53 PM
Hopefully by the winter we'll have a commercial game (2D made with Torque Game Builder) showing off LightWave assets. We're solidifying the design document and storyboarding; and I am starting concept work. I know people are going to ask me what I did my models (3D models rendered into 2D image maps) and animations/rendering in. There is a pretty large Lightwave following in the artist areas at Torque. Following that we have a 2D Puzzle game in the works that will also need 3D rendered assets.

-Keith